ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags "Watch The Skies!" , Curtis Peebles , Ray Palmer , ufology , ufos

Reply
Old 10th October 2015, 02:26 AM   #41
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21,256
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
... it took not just a lot of thinking, but a very specific state organization in Greece, to come up with formal logic ... their trials were just a matter of who can talk the judges into seeing things his way, and there really were no standards of evidence or even common sense. You could end up with stuff like more people voting that Socrates deserves to die for his offense, than had voted that there was an offense in the first place, just because he epically failed that stage of his talking to them.
The questions of guilt and of the sentence were voted on separately, so there is no infringement of common sense here.
After the vote on Socrates' guilt, Socrates and his prosecutor suggested alternative sentences. Socrates, after expressing his surprise of the little amount he needed to have been found innocent, jokingly suggested free meals at the Prytaneum, a particular honor held for city benefactors and winners at the Olympic Games, then offered to pay a fine of 100 drachmae, which was a fifth of his property and a testament to Socrates' poverty. Finally he settled on the sum of 3000 drachmae, put forward by Plato, Crito, Critobulus, and Apollodorus, who guaranteed the payment. His prosecutor proposed the death penalty.
In my understanding the jurors were further constrained by a law that obliged them to impose only one or the other of the proposed sanctions, without permitting them to suggest other alternatives. The first suggestion by Socrates - that he be honoured by the city - may have seemed flippant (rather than merely illogical) to the jurors, and may have persuaded some of them to impose the prosecution's suggested sanction, even if they had voted against guilt in the previous deliberation. There is nothing unreasonable about that. Socrates had been found guilty.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2015, 07:29 AM   #42
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 13,288
Oh, I've read the apologia too. I even posted the same you did a couple of times on this forum. Still, it's as epic a fail as it possibly gets that people who thought he was innocent voted that he should die, rather than at least accept his fine proposal. I mean, if you think the guy is innocent, at least vote for the lesser punishment. But yeah, Socrates obviously rolled one hell of a critical failure that day

Still, nevertheless, the development of logic is believed by many to have been essentially in response to the earlier development of whole schools of sophistry. Even if Socrates did talk himself into a corner fair and square, essentially it makes a case that you'd want to think up a system where you don't end up dead just because you put your foot in your mouth. And hence it took a very specific state organization for it to matter that much.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 10th October 2015 at 07:33 AM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th July 2017, 02:30 AM   #43
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I used to be into the UFO scene.

Suddenly the UFO folks had their excuse for no physical evidence.

This F-16 radar data proves otherwise. What aircraft can mimic the maneuvers depicted from the following F-16 radar data?
Answer: No aircraft in existence can even come close to the performance levels depicted in the following radar data.

Quote:
Belgian Air Force Report

8. At 00.05 2 F16 were scrambled from BEAUVECHAIN airbase and guided towards the radar contacts. A total of 9 interception attempts have been made. At 6 occasions the pilots could establish a lock-on with their air interception radar. Lock-on distances varied between 5 and 8 NM. On all occasions targets varied speed and altitude very quickly and break-locks occurred after 10 to 60 seconds. Speeds varied between 150 and 1010 kts.

************************************************** *******

Seconds after Heading Speed Altitude

lock-on (degrees) (knots) (feet)

00 200 150 7000

01 200 150 7000

02 200 150 7000

03 200 150 7000

04 sharp 200 acceleration 150 6000

05 turn 270 = 22 g 560 6000

06 270 560 6000

07 270 570 6000

08 270 560 7000

09 270 550 7000

10 210 560 9000

11 210 570 10000

12 210 560 11000

13 210 570 10000

14 270 770 7000

15 270 770 6000

16 270 780 6000

17 270 790 5000

18 290 1010 4000

19 290 1000 3000

20 290 990 2000

21 290 990 1000

22 300 990 0000

22.5 300 980 0000 Break lock


Last edited by skyeagle409; 8th July 2017 at 02:32 AM.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 04:59 AM   #44
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,206
"Life of the Gaps"

It took modern human less than a century to go from the Wright Brother at Kitty Hawk, to Armstrong stepping on the Moon. Humanity has existed, as we are today, for well over 10,000 years, is it that much of a leap to believe other humans did not achieve flight?

Do you think primitive tribal societies today see our airplanes and satellites as 'alien' necessarily? God-like, perhaps?

I think UFO's are real, but are not necessarily alien...most likely they are other earthlings, with technology we don't understand...
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 05:05 AM   #45
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,206
Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
...No aircraft in existence can even come close to the performance levels depicted in the following radar data.
There was a massive dump of data over a decade ago, by the U.S. government. I forget when or what the official disclosure was called, but it was thousands of document, many pages of which were blacked-out.

I mined for a few days...looked at hundreds of pages...eventually I found and printed several copies of a report from a watch group, that detailed the accounts of this group that witnessed the radar images of a 'fast-moving object' that exceeded 23,000 mph'...'then speedup to 38,000 mph'...maybe faster. I donated my copies to the UFO museum in Roswell. lol
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 11:11 AM   #46
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
There was a massive dump of data over a decade ago, by the U.S. government. I forget when or what the official disclosure was called, but it was thousands of document, many pages of which were blacked-out.

I mined for a few days...looked at hundreds of pages...eventually I found and printed several copies of a report from a watch group, that detailed the accounts of this group that witnessed the radar images of a 'fast-moving object' that exceeded 23,000 mph'...'then speedup to 38,000 mph'...maybe faster. I donated my copies to the UFO museum in Roswell. lol

Our aircraft were seriously outmatched. Here is an example.


Quote:


TIME Magazine - August 4, 1952

SCIENCE: Blips on the Scopes

Air traffic was light at Washington Airport one midnight last week, and the radar scope of the Civil Aeronautics Authority was almost clear. At 12:40 a.m. a group of bright blips showed. The operator estimated that they were about 15 miles southwest of Washington. Then the blips disappeared abruptly and reappeared a few seconds later over northeast Washington. The operator called his boss, Senior Controller Harry Barnes, 39, a graduate of the Buffalo Technical Institute who has worked for the CAA as an electronics expert since 1941. The operator told Barnes: "Here are some flying saucers for you."

Barnes laughed at first, but the blips kept popping up all over the scope. They sometimes hovered, sometimes flew slowly and sometimes incredibly fast. Technicians checked the radar; it was in good working order. Over the White House. Barnes began to worry when he saw the blips apparently flying over the White House and other prohibited areas. He called the airport control tower. Sure enough, its radar showed the strange blips too. When the towermen measured the speed of a fast blip, they found that it had flown for eight miles at 7,200 m.p.h.


July 27: 0020 EDT.
[*] F-94 jet interceptors scrambled from New Castle AFB, Del., to investigate Washington, D.C., radar- UFOs. One F-94 pilot made visual contact and appeared to be gaining on target; both F-94 and UFO were observed on radar and "appeared to be travelling at the same approximate speed." When the F-94 pilot tried to overtake the UFO, it disappeared visually and on radar. The pilot remarked about the "incredible speed of the object." (AFOSI.)

AFOSI - Air Force Office of Special Investigations report, from Project Blue Book files, National Archives microfilm collection.


Last edited by skyeagle409; 9th July 2017 at 11:13 AM.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 05:15 PM   #47
mgidm86
Illuminator
 
mgidm86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,790
Problem with the above story is that nothing at all known to man could have maneuvered like these blips supposedly did, which to me would indicate a problem with the equipment, or misunderstanding the data.

They say they checked out the equipment, but that doesn't mean a problem was missed. Going by what we know about physics, there is no way anything in the known universe could behave in such a way. Why assume that that's what happened?

I would invoke Occam's Razor at this point and ask which is more likely - that something broke the laws of physics, or that there is a more mundane explanation.

When I read a story like that, especially one that is that old, I have to ask myself:

- is anyone wrong?
- is anyone lying?
- what do we understand scientifically today that we didn't back then, and how could that lack of knowledge account for their findings?
- look at how bad current reporting is and ask if there were journalists back then who were just as bad, or biased, or just plain stupid.
- people think that God is a thing.

Last edited by mgidm86; 9th July 2017 at 05:16 PM.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 05:46 PM   #48
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Problem with the above story is that nothing at all known to man could have maneuvered like these blips supposedly did, which to me would indicate a problem with the equipment, or misunderstanding the data.

The radar equipment was checked and found to be operating normally, which was confirmed by the fact that the maneuvers of the blips on radar were confirmed by pilots in the sky. In other words, pilot visual reports confirmed the maneuvers of what ground-base radars were tracking. At Andrews AFB, ground-based observations also confirmed the UFO radar blips.

To sum it up, radar contacts were confirmed by aerial and ground-based visual observations.

Quote:
What Radar Tells About Flying Saucers

1952 Washington D.C. Incidents

Captain Pierman, flying a Capital airliner, had just taken off from Washington. In a few moments he radioed back that he saw a bright light where the scope showed one of the objects. At the very instant he called the Center, the object raced off at terrific speed.

Tower operators Howard Cocklin and Joe Zacko both reported the strange blips on their scope, and in the same position. So did Air Force radar men at Andrews Air Force Base, which uses an A.S.R. set. Not only that, visual observers at both points could see mysterious lights moving in the sky.

"That means it must have raced out of our beam between ten second sweeps. It could have done this in one of two ways: First, it could make a steep climb at terrific speed, so that in ten seconds it would be above the vertical area swept by our M.E.W. set. [The beam's average altitude, at its highest point, is from 35,000 to 40,000 feet, far out, but it is much less near the airport. At 30 miles, it is about 8,500 feet, sloping to 1,200 at three miles.] Second, it could race horizontally off our 34 mile scope within ten seconds."

Considering the objects' relative position, just before they vanished, this last would require a speed of from 5,000 to 7,000 m.p.h. At the time, this seemed unbelievable to Barnes and the other controllers. But Captain Pierman later confirmed the objects' tremendous speed.

Of four pilots who saw the fast moving lights, one was flying a jet interceptor. This pilot, Lieutenant William L. Patterson, on seeing four lights, went after one at full throttle.

"I was at my top speed," he said on landing, "but I couldn't close in." His plane's maximum speed was better than 600 m.p.h.



http://www.nicap.org/whatradar.htm
Since the Washington D.C. UFO incidents were radar/visual confirmation incidents, radar malfunctions did not play a role in what was depicted on the radar screens and remember, radars from different locations confirmed the visual accounts on the ground and in the sky.

Sometimes, a group of those UFOs would race across Washington whenever an airliner took off from an airport and surround that aircraft and that indicates intelligence.

Last edited by skyeagle409; 9th July 2017 at 06:02 PM.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 05:50 PM   #49
Jodie
Philosopher
 
Jodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 5,983
I don't think alien visitation is a myth, however, not every unidentified flying object in our atmosphere is an alien.
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd
Jodie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 05:54 PM   #50
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I don't think alien visitation is a myth, however, not every unidentified flying object in our atmosphere is an alien.

I totally agree and I am on the record for stating that the majority of UFO sightings can be explained in down-to-earth terms.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 05:58 PM   #51
Jodie
Philosopher
 
Jodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 5,983
The big thing here are the lights off the coast of SC at Myrtle Beach, very strange, but I'm thinking they are some kind of earth lights related to the fault lines off the coast. No one knows for certain what causes them.
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd
Jodie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 05:58 PM   #52
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,636
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
There was a massive dump of data over a decade ago, by the U.S. government. I forget when or what the official disclosure was called, but it was thousands of document, many pages of which were blacked-out.

[...] lol
Project Mogul.

HA HA HA.
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 06:12 PM   #53
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Project Mogul.

HA HA HA.

I often find it amusing of the Air Force's attempt to paint the Roswell incident as a misidentification of a Project Mogul balloon train #4 considering the Air Force knew there was no such flight on June 4, 1947.

I also find it amusing that the Air Force never revealed that Charles B. Moore, head of Project Mogul, and his balloon teams, reported tracking flying saucers over New Mexico.

And, I also find it amusing that the Air Force never revealed that civilians have recovered Project Mogul balloons for rewards after they added their data input on questionnaires attached to Project Mogul balloons and that is another clear indication that Project Mogul balloons were not classified at all.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 06:20 PM   #54
Sherman Bay
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 2,108
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Problem with the above story is that nothing at all known to man could have maneuvered like these blips supposedly did, which to me would indicate a problem with the equipment, or misunderstanding the data.
Although no physical object we know of can move so fast or maneuver so drastically, light beams can. They are unconstrained by gravity or inertia.

So whenever you hear about stuff like this, consider that it might not be an actual object, but a spot of light. From a distance, with weather and other factors, it may be difficult or impossible to tell the difference. Is that something 30 miles away, or a reflection inside the cockpit?

Confirmed by radar? How do you know the visual object is the same object as the radar object? Do you know how many things can masquerade as a blip on a radar screen, most of which are ignored as insignificant? If no UFO report was received, would the radar image be considered worthy of report or just more typical "image clutter"?
Sherman Bay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 06:26 PM   #55
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by Sherman Bay View Post
Confirmed by radar? How do you know the visual object is the same object as the radar object? Do you know how many things can masquerade as a blip on a radar screen, most of which are ignored as insignificant? If no UFO report was received, would the radar image be considered worthy of report or just more typical "image clutter"?

It's all very simple for me to understand because I have been a pilot for 48 years, but in many cases, the aircraft's own radar and even airborne ELINT systems not only coincided with aircrew visual accounts at the same reference point in the sky, but also confirmed the exact location reference as ground-based radar, in some cases, multiple dissimilar ground-based radars as confirmed by ground-based observations.

Last edited by skyeagle409; 9th July 2017 at 06:28 PM.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2017, 11:00 PM   #56
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,414
Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
The big thing here are the lights off the coast of SC at Myrtle Beach, very strange, but I'm thinking they are some kind of earth lights related to the fault lines off the coast. No one knows for certain what causes them.
Skydivers.
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 01:50 AM   #57
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,218
It's ghosts I tell you.
__________________
Read my fantasy novel for free!
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 09:05 PM   #58
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's ghosts I tell you.

Don't know about that, but perhaps this document might shed a bit of light.

skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2017, 09:56 PM   #59
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,246
Is there something the government is not telling its citizens about UFOs?

Quote:
FireFighters UFO Manual (UFO)

Subject: Firefighters FEMA UFO training manual

Adverse Potential Of UFOS

Regardless of its past evaluations, the Air Force could be wrong about a number of things. "It can't even guess within a couple of billion dollars what one of its planes is going to cost; maybe, despite the skepticism of the scientists and other investigators, the UFOs sent from other planets do exist and have visited earth."(60) And maybe they have exhibited some destructive effects, whether or not intentionally in every instance, which we need to consider when drafting a plan for coping with an emergency situation where UFOs are involved. Some of these documented effects are as follows.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

UFO Hazards

The two principal hazards noted with relation to UFOs have been attributed to powerful electrical fields which they can project in a general or localized area and the psychological effects they have produced on the general populace or individual contacts.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Force Field Impact


The disruption of air and ground travel has often been reported in the presence of UFOs. The ignition systems of auto and aircraft engines have apparently been affected by energized force fields to such an extent as to stop their operation; the headlights and radios have also ceased to function. Here are a couple of examples. In Buenos Aires, on March 29, 1978, "A strange force shut off their engine and headlights of their Citroen CG, lifted it 15 feet off the road, then set it down a minute later and 75 miles to the north." The driver had noticed a yellow and violet light shining in his rear view mirror while driving the last leg of a long stock car race, and he realized that it was approaching too fast to be a competitor. A month later a Colombian bank manager and a navy officer had their car headlights go off when buzzed by a UFO, with the navy man suffering temporary paralysis. Other South American countries in which similar actions were reported around that time included Argentina, Chile, Peru, and Uruguay.(61)

These effects have also been noted to influence the controls and instruments of aircraft, e.g., the pilot of a Piper PH-24 reported that his controls became inoperable when he was approached by three disk-shaped objects, 10 to 12 feet in diameter, over Mexico City on May 3,1975.(62) Similar cases have been reported by military pilots, illustrated by the classic case of the near mid-air collision of an army helicopter with a UFO on October 18, 1973, over Ohio, where not only did both the UHF and VHF radio wave- lengths go dead temporarily, but the downward movement of the helicopter with its four occupants was levitated upward by a green beam from the UFO in time to prevent its crash into the ground.(63)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Communications Disruption

In addition to the impedance of radio transmissions and reception, such as that described in the preceding incident, telephone interference has occurred, illustrated by the chagrin of President Lyndon Johnson in having his conversation from the Texas White House cut off while talking to assistants in Washington, D.C.(64) The ability to render inoperable all electronic forms of communications, including those that control the launching of defense weapons systems, has been considered within the range of UFO capability. Whether this could extend to the erasing of recorded computer data such as bank records, personnel data, FBI, CIA, and NSA files, along with critical information of every kind, is not beyond the realm of possibility.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regional Power Blackouts


It has long been suspected that UFOs have the capability of blacking out a city, state, or many states by exerting a force field sufficient to overload the circuits of public and private utility installations. "Few things are more disturbing than to be plunged into pitch darkness without warning; it is dangerous for masses of people. It paralyzes cities, blocks highways, stops trains, leaves elevators suspended between floors. In general it simply plays hell with the modern way of life."(65) You would think that the power companies would have achieved sufficient reliability in their high tech systems that a mass failure such as that which blacked out New York and New England in 1965 would never happen--but it did. Although, as we have mentioned before, it was known that UFO activity was associated with disturbances with compasses. instruments, ignition systems, radios, etc., it was inconceivable that it could also interfere with generation and distribution of electrical power. Such a connection was also inferred in November 1953, when a glowing red object went over a residential area of New Haven, Connecticut, causing lights to dim out on both sides of the object's path and then come on when it went out of sight.

Power failures were also reported in association with UFOs in Brazil in 1957 to l959~ Rome, Italy, in 1958; and Mexico in 1965. Likewise, in Uberlandia, where the power station operators promptly closed the circuits when the UFO apparently caused them to open, it did no good, and they were unable to restore the power until the UFO departed.

WARNING

"Near approaches of UFOs can be harmful to human beings. Do not stand under a UFO that is hovering at low altitude. Do not touch or attempt to touch a UFO that has landed. In either case the safe thing to do is to get away from there very quickly and let the military take over. There is a possibility of radiation danger and there are known cases where persons have been burned by rays emanating from UFOs. Don't take chances with UFOs!"

The following incident involving Iranian F-4 Phantoms and UFOs was also captured by a DSP satellite. Both F-4's were disable as they continued to approach the larger UFO but their systems returned to normal only after turning away from the craft.


Quote:
Updated 30 Nov 2016
Sept. 19, 1976; Tehran, Iran

After midnight. This radar/visual incident is particularly notable for the electromagnetic interference effects on aircraft near the UFO. Two F-4 jet interceptors independently lost instrumentation and communications as they approached, only to have these restored when they left. One F-4 also lost its weapons systems when it was about to fire on the object. The incident is well-documented in a U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) report with a distribution list that included the White House, Secretary of State, Joint Chiefs of Staff, National Security Agency (NSA), and Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). Various high ranking Iranian military officers directly involved with the events have also gone on public record stating their belief the object was an extraterrestrial craft.

The Tehran, Iran/F-4 Incident
September 19, 1976









http://www.nicap.org/760919tehran_dir.htm

Last edited by skyeagle409; 10th July 2017 at 10:02 PM.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 12:19 AM   #60
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 19,136
Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
This F-16 radar data proves otherwise. What aircraft can mimic the maneuvers depicted from the following F-16 radar data?
Answer: No aircraft in existence can even come close to the performance levels depicted in the following radar data.
Tim Printy covered this F-16 incident, and many others, very well.

http://www.astronomyufo.com/UFO/Belg.htm

http://www.astronomyufo.com/UFO/SUNlite4_3.pdf

http://www.astronomyufo.com/UFO/UFO.htm
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

Last edited by LTC8K6; 11th July 2017 at 12:22 AM.
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 12:21 AM   #61
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 19,136
http://www.firehouse.com/news/105157...o-ufo-response

Author Explains Fire Service Guide To UFO Response
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 12:27 AM   #62
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 19,136
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Tehran_UFO_incident

1976 Tehran UFO incident
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 12:52 PM   #63
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post

Tim Printy and I, have gone head-to-head on issues, which has placed me on his hit list. He seems to ignore the fact that multiple, dissimilar ground-based radar systems coincided with airborne radar contacts and ground-based visual observations of the same objects and that is very significant by the fact that multiple observations and airborne and ground-based radar systems were on the same page as confirming the UFO in question.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 01:06 PM   #64
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 19,136
Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Tim Printy and I, have gone head-to-head on issues, which has placed me on his hit list. He seems to ignore the fact that multiple, dissimilar ground-based radar systems coincided with airborne radar contacts and ground-based visual observations of the same objects and that is very significant by the fact that multiple observations and airborne and ground-based radar systems were on the same page as confirming the UFO in question.
I don't agree that anything in this incident, or any other incident, confirms an alien spacecraft.

I think Tim has it pretty well covered and does a great job at simply presenting the evidence in an organized manner.
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 01:08 PM   #65
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
http://www.firehouse.com/news/105157...o-ufo-response

Author Explains Fire Service Guide To UFO Response

It's FEMA approved.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 01:50 PM   #66
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I don't agree that anything in this incident, or any other incident, confirms an alien spacecraft.
I disagree since airborne and ground-based radars coincided with ground-based visual observations of the objects which speak for themselves.

Quote:
I think Tim has it pretty well covered and does a great job at simply presenting the evidence in an organized manner.

Tim Printy is a very cleaver person who knows how to dupe those who are not familiar with what he is talking about.

Tim does not play with a full deck. For an example, he thinks that Project Mogul was a top secret operation yet I can show Tim where the name; "Mogul" and its experiments are depicted in unclassified letters and records. In addition, Project Mogul balloons were sometimes recovered by civilians for rewards after adding their own data input and that is not indicative of a classified program and Tim fails in that respect. Perhaps, I should let Tim know that Project Mogul balloon experiments were published in newspapers around the country, which was a clear indication that neither Project Mogul balloons nor their experiments were classified.

Tim likes to use Charles B. Moore as a reference but didn't Tim know that Charles B. Moore also reported tracking a flying saucer? In an unclassified letter that I have on hand, Charles Moore is listed as head of Project Mogul and details his tracking of that flying saucer.

There are things that Tim deliberately ignores in order to dupe those that he is focusing on, but he fails on those of us who have the experience, knowledge and understanding to know when he is trying to convince people that red paint is green.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 01:56 PM   #67
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post

1976 Iranian UFO Incident Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlllJsK_bZc
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 02:00 PM   #68
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 5,060
Damn right, skyeagle409! These skepdupes don't know nothing!

You & me, WE know that UFOs can maneuver at 9,000 mph right through the air and never make the slightest sonic boom!

And we don't pick up their radio signals because natcherly a nadvantaged buncha beings from another galaxy are way, way too advantaged to need old dumm RADIO! Ole Googlie Macaroni never got on THEIR page!

So the absence of evidence once again proves that UFO stuff is really real!
__________________
Fill the seats of justice with good men; not so absolute in goodness as to forget what human frailty is. -- Thomas Jefferson

What region of the earth is not filled with our calamities? -- Virgil
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 03:17 PM   #69
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Damn right, skyeagle409! These skepdupes don't know nothing!

You & me, WE know that UFOs can maneuver at 9,000 mph right through the air and never make the slightest sonic boom!

And we don't pick up their radio signals because natcherly a nadvantaged buncha beings from another galaxy are way, way too advantaged to need old dumm RADIO! Ole Googlie Macaroni never got on THEIR page!

So the absence of evidence once again proves that UFO stuff is really real!

We can take a look here.

Quote:



The Lockheed UFO Case





The UFO Incident

On December 16, Johnson and his wife Althea were visiting their Lindero Ranch near Agoura, California, which was situated on a hillside facing the coast not far from Pt Mugu Naval Air Station, an aircraft and missile test facility. At about 5 PM Johnson was looking through a window at the brilliant sunset when he noticed a dark elliptical shape in the sky in the direction of Pt Mugu cape. His first thought was that it was a lenticular cloud, or possibly a smoke trail from an aircraft, but it remained stationary and unchanged for several minutes. He called for Althea to bring him his 8-power binoculars and ran outside. By that time the object had begun to move, accelerating away from him in a shallow climb in a direction opposite to the motion of the other clouds in the sky. It seemed to be very large and distant, and moving fast, but he had no real way of knowing its actual size, distance or speed.

At the same time, coincidentally, a Lockheed airplane was in the air on a test flight along the Los Angeles coastline. Constellation airframe 4301 was the prototype for a Navy Airborne Early Warning (AEW) aircraft, the WV-2 Warning Star. The WV-2 was a large four-engine transport equipped with huge blisters housing radar antennas (a search radar unit in the belly and a height-finder in a dorsal fairing), and was designed to fly very long standing patrols far off the coasts of North America to provide long-range detection of incoming Soviet bombers. Constellation 4301 was the first of a long line of Navy WV-2s and Air Force EC-121s that would provide a vital part of the North American air defense network throughout the 1950s and '60s.



WV-2 airframe number 4301, USN serial number 126521, the aircraft involved in the UFO incident

See: WV-2 and EC-121

See: Navy Air Defense

At the controls of the Warning Star were Rudy Thoren and Roy Wimmer, both highly experienced senior test pilots in the Constellation program, assisted by Joseph F. Ware, Jr, another longtime Lockheed engineering test pilot.[3] Also in the cockpit were Charlie Grugan, another veteran company pilot, and Lockheed's Chief Aerodynamicist, Philip A Colman. It was customary for Lockheed engineers to ride aboard their planes during test flights, and Johnson himself often did so. (There are no indications that the elaborate radar systems, which required a crew of at least a dozen men, were active during the flight.)



Philip Colman, Roy Wimmer, Lockheed flight test crew including Johnson and Wimmer (second from right and right)

Thoren had been recruited by Johnson from their alma mater, the aeronautical engineering school at University of Michigan, and had been Chief of Flight Test for Lockheed since 1946, in charge of all the company's test pilots. Colman was a Cal Tech graduate who had made valuable contributions to the P-38 program, and who would soon be tasked by Johnson with designing the wings for the new CL-282 recon plane. All of the crewmen were top representatives of their fields, having flown for the company for years in development programs of a variety of sophisticated aircraft.

The exact purpose of the test flight is not detailed in the sighting reports, but such flights typically involved calibration of airspeed vs engine power settings at various altitudes, and therefore the crewmen were very conscious of the height of the aircraft. Altitude recording instruments were carried on board.

Though Wimmer was technically the pilot in command, he had turned the controls over to Thoren and was maintaining a watch for other air traffic as Thoren conducted his tests. They had turned from a southeast heading to west, just off the coast of Long Beach, when, at 4:58 PM, Wimmer noticed a dark shape ahead at about their altitude of 14,000 feet. After watching it for a few moments and noting that it was not moving, he jokingly pointed it out to Thoren, saying "Look out, there's a flying saucer." Thoren turned the WV-2 a bit to the right to head toward the object. The other men saw the object too and watched it for a few minutes with a growing sense of curiosity. It appeared to be a very large aircraft of some type, but as it remained stationary and unchanged in shape over at least a five minute period, they became more and more intrigued. Thoren finally diverted from his course and headed directly at it. They flew toward it at about 225 mph for some time without appearing to gain on it at all. Then Wimmer, who was less occupied with piloting tasks and was able to keep a constant watch on the object, commented that it seemed to be disappearing. Within a few moments it appeared to head west directly away from them at high speed, remaining dark and solid-looking the entire time as it dwindled to a tiny dot. They all felt that it was a large object at a considerable distance, and compared its size to the largest types of transport or bomber aircraft. The men later reported that they thought little more of the incident at the time due to their preoccupation with completing the test mission, but Thoren was intrigued enough that upon returning home that evening he told his family about the sighting and sketched the object. The following day, Kelly Johnson had returned to work and was discussing the WV-2 test flight with Thoren, who was still ruminating on the incident. A bit worried that Johnson would ridicule him, the pilot casually mentioned the sighting. Thoren was surprised when Johnson excitedly interrupted him and described his own sighting in detail. Both concluded that all the witnesses had been viewing the same object at the same time. Over the course of the next few weeks each of the pilots wrote a detailed personal account of the case, probably at Johnson's urging, and the Chief Engineer, in his typical meticulous style, assembled them into a file (Lockheed file LAC/149536) and drafted a personal cover letter addressed to the "Air Force Investigation Group on Flying Saucers" at Wright Field. Then, tough and combative as he was, Johnson hesitated to send the report. After all, he was hoping to get a foot in the door of the Air Force's new covert strategic reconnaissance aircraft competition and was very concerned that a UFO report might jeopardize his credibility. He may have sought the advice of his friend, Lt General Donald Putt.


Lockheed UFO Case Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwgqFd5ApZM

skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 04:50 PM   #70
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,218
Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Damn right, skyeagle409! These skepdupes don't know nothing!

You & me, WE know that UFOs can maneuver at 9,000 mph right through the air and never make the slightest sonic boom!
Don't be silly. Only ghosts can do that, because they're incorporeal. Anything made of matter is not going to be able to do that.

Originally Posted by sackett View Post
And we don't pick up their radio signals because natcherly a nadvantaged buncha beings from another galaxy are way, way too advantaged to need old dumm RADIO! Ole Googlie Macaroni never got on THEIR page!
Again, it is only incorporeal beings - ie, ghosts - that can do this.

Originally Posted by sackett View Post
So the absence of evidence once again proves that UFO stuff is really real!
You've been duped. All the evidence points to these phenomena being caused by ghosts. There's literally no other explanation.
__________________
Read my fantasy novel for free!
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 06:29 PM   #71
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You've been duped. All the evidence points to these phenomena being caused by ghosts.

Let's see the data.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 07:28 PM   #72
Belgian thought
Graduate Poster
 
Belgian thought's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,577
I remember many moons and UFOs ago, a Ramjet guy that posted the same things.

I hate the circle of life sometimes..
__________________
... er, that's it
Belgian thought is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 08:18 PM   #73
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 19,136
Curses!

Duped again...
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2017, 10:25 PM   #74
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Don't be silly.
I am as serious as a heart attack.


Quote:
Only ghosts can do that,

I would like to see your data they can.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 02:04 AM   #75
Cosmic Yak
Graduate Poster
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 1,834
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Don't be silly. Only ghosts can do that, because they're incorporeal. Anything made of matter is not going to be able to do that.

Again, it is only incorporeal beings - ie, ghosts - that can do this.

You've been duped. All the evidence points to these phenomena being caused by ghosts. There's literally no other explanation.
No, you're both wrong. What we are seeing here are incidents that defy the laws of physics.
This can only mean one thing: they were caused by god, and they prove we live in a simulation.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 02:05 AM   #76
Cosmic Yak
Graduate Poster
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 1,834
skyeagle409: I would appreciate it if you could stop the near-Gish Gallop of reported sightings, and allow us to focus on just one at a time.
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 12:29 PM   #77
lpetrich
Muse
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 747
skyeagle409 brought up some radar-visual UFO cases. However, Philip Klass states about such cases:
Quote:
9. Whenever a light is sighted in the night skies that is believed to be a UFO and this is reported to a radar operator, who is asked to search his scope for an unknown target, almost invariably an "unknown" target will be found. Conversely, if an unusual target is spotted on a radarscope at night that is suspected of being a UFO, an observer is dispatched or asked to search for a light in the night sky, almost invariably a visual sighting will be made.
In other words, nearly all radar-visual "combined sightings" are coincidences.

PK also proposed that seemingly superfast objects observed by radar are also coincidences: a false echo followed by a different false echo.

Klass's UFOlogical principles then mentions an example of one:
Quote:
During the Condon study, an incident near Santa Barbara, California produced a Radar-Visual case. Here lights from ships off the coast were seen through a mirage as odd stationary lights. Once seen, the requests for radar checks were made. These produced numerous targets with various speeds. It was later determined that these lock-ons were due to birds and Anomalous Propagation (AP) conditions.
lpetrich is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 04:42 PM   #78
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 56,218
Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Let's see the data.
It's right in front of your face. You just can't see it because you're too ideologically dependent on the delusion that the "objects" are corporeal.
__________________
Read my fantasy novel for free!
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 10:47 PM   #79
skyeagle409
Master Poster
 
skyeagle409's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,246
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's right in front of your face.

In other words, you do not have data to backup what you say.
skyeagle409 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2017, 10:54 PM   #80
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,826
Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
In other words, you do not have data to backup what you say.
You presented the data. arthwollipot is simply offering an alternative explanation for it to the one you favour.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:09 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.