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Old 24th May 2017, 06:57 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You mean, except the "shape, date, and location"...?

*yawn*
None of which counts as evidence.
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Old 24th May 2017, 07:13 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
None of which counts as evidence.
What about local quarries of red and black stone, core samples of sunken ruins to match?

I have featured a location of at least one underwater arch, sunken off the coast of spain, along with other ruins.

What exactly are you basing your dismissal upon?

Maybe you could produce an alternative theory for the origin of the symbol?

This one is well founded.
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Old 24th May 2017, 08:02 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
What about local quarries of red and black stone, core samples of sunken ruins to match?

I have featured a location of at least one underwater arch, sunken off the coast of spain, along with other ruins.

What exactly are you basing your dismissal upon?

Maybe you could produce an alternative theory for the origin of the symbol?

This one is well founded.
Hogwarts must be a real location, because JK Rowling described it in such detail. Why would an author go into so much detail if it wasn't real?
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Old 24th May 2017, 08:11 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Hogwarts must be a real location, because JK Rowling described it in such detail. Why would an author go into so much detail if it wasn't real?
JK Rowling wrote fiction, and never admitted otherwise.

Plato included Athens alongside Atlantis.
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Old 24th May 2017, 11:43 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You mean, except the "shape, date, and location"...?

*yawn*
None of those prove any kind of link between Atlantis and a menorah.
I would elaborate, if I did not know that you would latch onto something tangential I'd say, respond to that, and ignore any of the points I'm making.
Instead, you can explain:
How do the date, location and shape prove your story?
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Old 24th May 2017, 11:48 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
JK Rowling wrote fiction, and never admitted otherwise.





Plato included Athens alongside Atlantis.


And the train to Hogwarts sets off from London. What's your evidence that Plato didn't tell everyone who asked that Atlantis was fictional?
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Old 25th May 2017, 02:00 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
What about local quarries of red and black stone, core samples of sunken ruins to match?

I have featured a location of at least one underwater arch, sunken off the coast of spain, along with other ruins.

What exactly are you basing your dismissal upon?

Maybe you could produce an alternative theory for the origin of the symbol?

This one is well founded.
How about an artifact with the name of the city on it?
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Old 25th May 2017, 03:07 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
What about local quarries of red and black stone, core samples of sunken ruins to match?

I have featured a location of at least one underwater arch, sunken off the coast of spain, along with other ruins.

What exactly are you basing your dismissal upon?

Maybe you could produce an alternative theory for the origin of the symbol?

This one is well founded.
Might be significant if black and red stone was rare or unusual, even if it were a clue... Red granite is common around The Mediterranean...
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Old 25th May 2017, 04:02 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
None of those prove any kind of link between Atlantis and a menorah.
I would elaborate, if I did not know that you would latch onto something tangential I'd say, respond to that, and ignore any of the points I'm making.
Instead, you can explain:
How do the date, location and shape prove your story?
According to you...

So, please tell us, what kind of archaeological experience you have, and what qualifications or training you have received that provides the background for your dismissal of the evidences provided herein?
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Old 25th May 2017, 04:05 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Might be significant if black and red stone was rare or unusual, even if it were a clue... Red granite is common around The Mediterranean...
Yes, but Plato said the city was adorned with these stones.

If the location, description, and dates all match...

No one has answered yet, maybe you can take a crack at it.

What evidence was used to make Atlantis fictional? Athens is real. What purpose is served by describing a fiction? What lesson was he teaching by including the red and black in the description?
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Old 25th May 2017, 04:07 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
And the train to Hogwarts sets off from London. What's your evidence that Plato didn't tell everyone who asked that Atlantis was fictional?
You want me to provide negative evidence?

Tricky endeavor.
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Old 25th May 2017, 04:09 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
How about an artifact with the name of the city on it?
Really?
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Old 25th May 2017, 04:18 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
According to you...

So, please tell us, what kind of archaeological experience you have, and what qualifications or training you have received that provides the background for your dismissal of the evidences provided herein?
So, instead of explaining why the shape, date and location of the symbol prove your point, as you claimed... You are going for the ad-hom?
Boring, but predicted.
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Old 25th May 2017, 04:31 AM   #374
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How would a people who had no written language or "names" emblazoned on things do so? What if everything was 'remembered' within oral tradition?

Many of the American indigenous plaines peoples had no paper, and the things they used quite biodegradable.

There are people and evidence of their existence who and which have come and gone.

We have the tale of a city, its description, location, and date of existence...a "well-known teacher's exposé"-Plato on its end. Modern archaeological findings are matching up.

Exactly what evidence are you employing to say "NO, that's fiction."?

Last edited by King of the Americas; 25th May 2017 at 04:33 AM.
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Old 25th May 2017, 04:36 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
What about local quarries of red and black stone, core samples of sunken ruins to match?
What about them?
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Old 25th May 2017, 04:37 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You want me to provide negative evidence?

Tricky endeavor.
You're making the positive claim that Plato thought Atlantis was historical -- WITHOUT EVIDENCE. Do you deny that the dialogues Plato wrote were fictional?
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Old 25th May 2017, 04:51 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
So, instead of explaining why the shape, date and location of the symbol prove your point, as you claimed... You are going for the ad-hom?
Boring, but predicted.
I have posted a response to this. Look at the links, quotes, and biblical references provided, or not. I am not going to continue to repeat myself for another 10 pages...

Ad-hom?

If you are an expert, say so. Let's hear some letters? Mine are useless in this exchange. My B.S. is in Criminal Justice and Legal Studies, and my current M.A. efforts are in Political Science.

I couldn't tell the difference between an actual artifact from a corner store knock off, but I understand rules of evidence.

There has been copious amounts of evidence stacked into this thread that:

-the menorah was adopted, misunderstood, and re-interpreted
-powerful, popular symbols are often adopted without provenance
-sunken ruins where Plato said to find them, exist, as he described them...sorta
-the oldest menorah symbols look like half of 3 (or more) concentric circles atop a trident
-Plato was a "teacher" who wrote to inform, not mislead or misinform.
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Old 25th May 2017, 04:53 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Ad-hom?

If you are an expert, say so. Let's hear some letters? Mine are useless in this exchange. My B.S. is in Criminal Justice and Legal Studies, and my current M.A. efforts are in Political Science.
Yes, that's a good example of an ad-hom. Arguments and evidence stand on their own.

Quote:
There has been copious amounts of evidence stacked into this thread that:

-the menorah was adopted, misunderstood, and re-interpreted
-powerful, popular symbols are often adopted without provenance
-sunken ruins where Plato said to find them, exist, as he described them...sorta
-the oldest menorah symbols look like half of 3 (or more) concentric circles atop a trident
-Plato was a "teacher" who wrote to inform, not mislead or misinform.
You are confusing claims and evidence. It makes this claim:

Quote:
I understand rules of evidence.
...very doubtful.
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Old 25th May 2017, 04:54 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You're making the positive claim that Plato thought Atlantis was historical -- WITHOUT EVIDENCE. Do you deny that the dialogues Plato wrote were fictional?
"Athens" is my evidence.

Also, the underwater evidence located in a form and location Plato described.

Have you used google earth on the Spanish coast yet???

It is flipping AWESOME!
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Old 25th May 2017, 04:58 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
"Athens" is my evidence.
No it isn't. Because if it was, "London" would be evidence for Hogwarts. You yourself have added more elements to your reasoning in order to avoid the appearance of being wrong, namely that Plato didn't write fiction, which is patently false. The dialogues in his works are entirely fictional, and there is no evidence of Plato ever discussing Atlantis in a historical fashion, or even at all outside of these works.

You are making a claim with zero evidence.

Quote:
Also, the underwater evidence located in a form and location Plato described.
Plato said Atlantis was on a giant island in the Atlantis, where such an island cannot physically disappear. How do you explain that?

Quote:
Have you used google earth on the Spanish coast yet???
Do you really believe that Google Earth proves anything? You have no idea how to conduct such an investigation. You have nothing.
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Old 25th May 2017, 05:19 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No it isn't. Because if it was, "London" would be evidence for Hogwarts. You yourself have added more elements to your reasoning in order to avoid the appearance of being wrong, namely that Plato didn't write fiction, which is patently false. The dialogues in his works are entirely fictional, and there is no evidence of Plato ever discussing Atlantis in a historical fashion, or even at all outside of these works.

You are making a claim with zero evidence.
IF, Plato 'invented' Atlantis...why the detailed descriptions? He wrote to teach and inform (links also provided) and from proven life lessons. To create a scenario based NOT in fact but instead in pure fiction would have undermined his authority.

I accuse you of "throwing shade on Plato"...incorrectly.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Plato said Atlantis was on a giant island in the Atlantis, where such an island cannot physically disappear. How do you explain that?
"Giant" in relation to the whole of the modern world of that day... To a toddler, I am freaking huge. Standing next to Shaq, less so. Plato's world did not include the Americas, an understand of the whole of Asia, Africa, the Pacific Ocean, or most of the 'World" you and I know about. We simply don't know how big "giant" was, and it certainly should be use to disqualify an entire existence.

(*I have several small penis jokes just laying here...)

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you really believe that Google Earth proves anything? You have no idea how to conduct such an investigation. You have nothing.
Proof...?

Are there underwater ruins off the Spanish coast or not?
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Old 25th May 2017, 05:27 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
IF, Plato 'invented' Atlantis...why the detailed descriptions?
Same reason Tolken made detailed descriptions of non-existent mountains and cities. Seriously, do you not know this?

Quote:
He wrote to teach and inform (links also provided) and from proven life lessons.
Unsupported assertion.

Do you or do you not agree that the discussions in Plato's works were fictional? It's an easy question to answer.

Quote:
To create a scenario based NOT in fact but instead in pure fiction would have undermined his authority.
Nonsense. "Brave New World" and "Nineteen Eighty Four" made political commentaries about the real world by constructing fictional future ones, and it didn't undermine the writers' authorities.

Quote:
I accuse you of "throwing shade on Plato"...incorrectly.
I don't care. Plato can suck it.

Quote:
"Giant" in relation to the whole of the modern world of that day... To a toddler, I am freaking huge. Standing next to Shaq, less so.
It was big. There is no such island in the Atlantic.

Quote:
We simply don't know how big "giant" was, and it certainly should be use to disqualify an entire existence.
He actually told us how big it was, King. Perhaps you should read up before making claims about what Plato said.

Quote:
Are there underwater ruins off the Spanish coast or not?
You can look at pixels and see anything you want to see. You need a close look if you want to actually find out. You have, of course, no intention of risking finding out the truth that way.
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Old 25th May 2017, 05:34 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What about them?
Well, if you listen to how Plato describes the city, you might understand why there is a connection to red and black volcanic stone, white too.
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Old 25th May 2017, 05:37 AM   #384
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NOT just 'pixels'-
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Old 25th May 2017, 05:39 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Well, if you listen to how Plato describes the city, you might understand why there is a connection to red and black volcanic stone, white too.
How about the fact that this sort of stone is common over there?

You've been told this before but in addressing "all" objections you seem to be missing quite a few of them.
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Old 25th May 2017, 05:40 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
NOT just 'pixels'-
No but it's still just interpretation; you still can't tell me what those things are. Oh, look! Squarish things in the water.

So?

Wait. I thought Atlantis was round?
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Old 25th May 2017, 05:43 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Well, if you listen to how Plato describes the city, you might understand why there is a connection to red and black volcanic stone, white too.
I tried, couldn't hear a thing. He must be dead.
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Old 25th May 2017, 05:46 AM   #388
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There are submerged ruins off lots of bits of the coast of continental Europe, due to earthquakes and changing sea levels. I thought Atlantis was supposed to be a separate island miles out in the Atlantic, though, which surely makes them all irrelevant to that particular story.
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Old 25th May 2017, 05:51 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Same reason Tolken made detailed descriptions of non-existent mountains and cities. Seriously, do you not know this?
Homer too, eh?

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Unsupported assertion.

Do you or do you not agree that the discussions in Plato's works were fictional? It's an easy question to answer.
Except that I attached a Phd's doctorate explaining the reason Plato wrote in the characters he did, and what his main purpose was in writing.

Plato was not a fictional writer in the spirit of Tolkien, George Lucas, or Rowling. He was a teacher who wrote to preserve and inform.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Nonsense. "Brave New World" and "Nineteen Eighty Four" made political commentaries about the real world by constructing fictional future ones, and it didn't undermine the writers' authorities.
Do you know why Socrates never wrote anything down?

Do you know why Plato chose TO do so?

If you don't then you will never full appreciate what Plato actually wrote...seriousy look into that.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I don't care. Plato can suck it.
Well, so long as we know where you stand, bias red-in-hand.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It was big. There is no such island in the Atlantic.
lol Did Plato know how 'big' the Atlantic was?

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
He actually told us how big it was, King. Perhaps you should read up before making claims about what Plato said.
"in relation to his known world"...

What you and I think of as "giant" is very different than what Plato thought.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You can look at pixels and see anything you want to see. You need a close look if you want to actually find out. You have, of course, no intention of risking finding out the truth that way.
Ummm, get your google earth on buddy. There are evidences you refuse to accept, if you'll only look to see.
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Old 25th May 2017, 05:52 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No but it's still just interpretation; you still can't tell me what those things are. Oh, look! Squarish things in the water.

So?

Wait. I thought Atlantis was round?
The outer walls were round. Rooms tend to be square or rectangle.

Those are underwater ruins.

Look closely.
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Old 25th May 2017, 05:54 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
There are submerged ruins off lots of bits of the coast of continental Europe, due to earthquakes and changing sea levels. I thought Atlantis was supposed to be a separate island miles out in the Atlantic, though, which surely makes them all irrelevant to that particular story.
What we see are the edges of the submerged city likely further out.
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Old 25th May 2017, 05:54 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
There are submerged ruins off lots of bits of the coast of continental Europe, due to earthquakes and changing sea levels. I thought Atlantis was supposed to be a separate island miles out in the Atlantic, though, which surely makes them all irrelevant to that particular story.
No, no, you don't understand... Plato's description has to be taken literally and as factual... Until it doesn't.
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Old 25th May 2017, 05:56 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
I tried, couldn't hear a thing. He must be dead.
They are called 'dialogues'...but you can read them today.

I prefer to listen to them on youtube, professor lectures, or refer to peer reviewed publications.
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Old 25th May 2017, 06:01 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
What we see are the edges of the submerged city likely further out.

What we see are submerged ruins close to shore, which is exactly what we'd expect to see if they are the remains of shoreline settlements lost to earthquakes and rising sea levels. Show me evidence that they extend miles out (beyond the continental shelf, presumably) and I'll start to take the claim that they could be related to Plato's story seriously.
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Old 25th May 2017, 06:01 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Do you know why Socrates never wrote anything down?

Do you know why Plato chose TO do so?

If you don't then you will never full appreciate what Plato actually wrote...seriousy look into that.
Stop playing games. Address what I told you.

Quote:
Well, so long as we know where you stand, bias red-in-hand.
You just don't get it, do you? It has nothing to do with Plato's character but the claim itself. In context, the claim was part of a fictional conversation. What part of that is so hard for you to understand?

Quote:
lol Did Plato know how 'big' the Atlantic was?
He wrote exactly how big it was.

Quote:
Ummm, get your google earth on buddy. There are evidences you refuse to accept, if you'll only look to see.
That is not an answer, but a repetition of your claim. Just showing me a picture of, purportedly, sunken ruins, does not mean that they are from Atlantis.
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Old 25th May 2017, 06:02 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
The outer walls were round. Rooms tend to be square or rectangle.

Those are underwater ruins.

Look closely.
I am. Those pictures are not from the Atlantic ocean.
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Old 25th May 2017, 06:05 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yes, that's a good example of an ad-hom. Arguments and evidence stand on their own.
Ahh, No. They don't. Science employs a peer-review process wherein letters matter.

What argument(s) or evidence are you employing, exactly?
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Old 25th May 2017, 06:06 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
No, no, you don't understand... Plato's description has to be taken literally and as factual... Until it doesn't.
So, how 'close' does Homer's description match what was found?
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Old 25th May 2017, 06:08 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
What we see are submerged ruins close to shore, which is exactly what we'd expect to see if they are the remains of shoreline settlements lost to earthquakes and rising sea levels. Show me evidence that they extend miles out (beyond the continental shelf, presumably) and I'll start to take the claim that they could be related to Plato's story seriously.
Atlantis sunk due to earthquakes and rising sea levels.
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Old 25th May 2017, 06:08 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Homer too, eh?
Yes, Homer too.
Unless you can point us to the thick brass walls that surround the isle of the Wind God.
Or tell us on which junkie-infested island the narcotic lotos was harvested. Or where the autonomously moving, clashing rocks of the Symplegades can be found.

The fact that he used real world locations in his stories does not mean that all locations in his stories are real.

Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post

lol Did Plato know how 'big' the Atlantic was?



"in relation to his known world"...

What you and I think of as "giant" is very different than what Plato thought.
Keep digging...
He claimed it was bigger than Asia and Libya combined. That's not modern day Asia and Libya, but it means Anatolia and Northern Africa. So... quite specific, and huge.
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