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Old 22nd May 2017, 03:16 PM   #161
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Thank You, Vixen,

Your response spurred inspiration...

The menorah doesn't 'belong' to the Jewish religion. It is supposed to represent the internal light of God, and the "8" days a lamp burned... (interesting it has 7 candle holders) Another said it represents the 7 churches. The rabbi I am listening to now says the middle one is they god, which lights the rest of the world, 6 being the number of man, each candle representing some elements we are supposed to light in us.

The Bible describes the object to be made, out of pure beaten gold (God- Make this graven image, later, God- DON'T make graven images) which direction branches are supposed to be... "after a pattern shown thee in the mount"...

So, what mountain, where, when, and who put it there?

Someone posted a picture from the 17th century depicting straight up "branches" not this rounded object we see today, or the further stylized versions. These writings and means don't seem to fit together or this religion.

The menorah is from someone or somewhere else...
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Old 22nd May 2017, 03:47 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Thank You, Vixen,

Your response spurred inspiration...

The menorah doesn't 'belong' to the Jewish religion. It is supposed to represent the internal light of God, and the "8" days a lamp burned... (interesting it has 7 candle holders) Another said it represents the 7 churches. The rabbi I am listening to now says the middle one is they god, which lights the rest of the world, 6 being the number of man, each candle representing some elements we are supposed to light in us.

The Bible describes the object to be made, out of pure beaten gold (God- Make this graven image, later, God- DON'T make graven images) which direction branches are supposed to be... "after a pattern shown thee in the mount"...

So, what mountain, where, when, and who put it there?

Someone posted a picture from the 17th century depicting straight up "branches" not this rounded object we see today, or the further stylized versions. These writings and means don't seem to fit together or this religion.

The menorah is from someone or somewhere else...
I can't help but notice a lack of mention of Atlantis in its history.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 03:48 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Thank You, Vixen,

Your response spurred inspiration...

The menorah doesn't 'belong' to the Jewish religion. It is supposed to represent the internal light of God, and the "8" days a lamp burned... (interesting it has 7 candle holders) Another said it represents the 7 churches. The rabbi I am listening to now says the middle one is they god, which lights the rest of the world, 6 being the number of man, each candle representing some elements we are supposed to light in us.

The Bible describes the object to be made, out of pure beaten gold (God- Make this graven image, later, God- DON'T make graven images) which direction branches are supposed to be... "after a pattern shown thee in the mount"...

So, what mountain, where, when, and who put it there?

Someone posted a picture from the 17th century depicting straight up "branches" not this rounded object we see today, or the further stylized versions. These writings and means don't seem to fit together or this religion.

The menorah is from someone or somewhere else...
I found ONE image sorta like a menorah 'on' Mt. Sinai (well, not 'me' personally)...but that's not "in the mount'...
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Old 22nd May 2017, 03:52 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I can't help but notice a lack of mention of Atlantis in its history.
AGAIN, there may have been little to no appreciation for what Atlantis truly was, or what the symbol meant to others before its adoption by the Jewish faith.

The symbol was adopted because it came from a place of power or authority, its previous origin unknown.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 03:52 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
I found ONE image sorta like a menorah on Mt. Sinai (well, not 'me' personally)...
What's the terminus post and terminus anti quem for the image?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 03:54 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
AGAIN, there may have been little to no appreciation for what Atlantis truly was, or what the symbol meant to others before its adoption by the Jewish faith.

The symbol was adopted because it came from a place of power or authority, its previous origin unknown.
You are just adding a history that you want it to have. You can't tie it to you Atlantis with mere conjecture.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 03:56 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What's the terminus post and terminus anti quem for the image?
You're saying words I don't know, but maybe this is the answer...

http://www.covenantkeepers.co.uk/sinai.htm
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Old 22nd May 2017, 04:01 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You're saying words I don't know, but maybe this is the answer...

http://www.covenantkeepers.co.uk/sinai.htm
It means after what date or before what date were the images deposited on the rock. I assumed you, being a student of past human physical culture that you'd have been familiar with the terms.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 04:04 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
You are just adding a history that you want it to have. You can't tie it to you Atlantis with mere conjecture.
No, I am using the Bible. Supposedly, GOD was talking. The symbol came from some pattern he showed someone in the mount.

The symbol was given to them by the only authority they recognized.

Who put the "pattern" in the mount?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 04:06 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
It means after what date or before what date were the images deposited on the rock. I assumed you, being a student of past human physical culture that you'd have been familiar with the terms.
My B.S. is a double major- Criminal Justice and Legal Studies. I'm in grad school right now, M.A. Political Science.

As for your question, "No idea."
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Old 22nd May 2017, 04:08 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
No, I am using the Bible. Supposedly, GOD was talking. The symbol came from some pattern he showed someone in the mount.

The symbol was given to them by the only authority they recognized.

Who put the "pattern" in the mount?
How the hell would I know? You can't even date it. If you're going to try and study this stuff you might trouble yourself to learn what they teach on the first day of archeology school right after they kick out everyone who showed with a bullwhip and a Fedora.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 04:28 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
How the hell would I know? You can't even date it. If you're going to try and study this stuff you might trouble yourself to learn what they teach on the first day of archeology school right after they kick out everyone who showed with a bullwhip and a Fedora.
Glad I just bought the brown leather jacket. :/

Look, I am not an expert, nor have I claimed to be one.

I heard an interesting story, and I brought it to the best convergence of skeptics I know of.

I've posted links to things and stuff, that I'd like to discuss. If you have something to add, please do so.

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Old 22nd May 2017, 04:44 PM   #173
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Why is it interesting?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 05:01 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Why is it interesting?
Did you watch it?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 05:13 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Know what the first guy to create a menorah had in mind. You seem to be ignoring the fact that a menorah is a fairly obvious design if you need to display candles in a row. Oh and we have a history for it that makes no mention of your lost city.
It is more than just candles in a row. God left a "pattern" for its construction.

ETA: Well maybe he did. The Bible just says he showed the symbol to someone else...
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Old 22nd May 2017, 05:19 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Did you watch it?
Why are they assuming this is your Atlantis? A stone anchor or symbols carved on rock are interesting but that doesn't equal Atlantis. Stone anchors are not exactly uncommon.

The stone etchings? Really? Horses and boats in Spain equals Atlantis? There is clearly past human physical culture that they are finding but there's nothing to associate it with your Atlantis.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 05:19 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
It is supposed to represent the internal light of God, and the "8" days a lamp burned... (interesting it has 7 candle holders)

Since you've got this great theory about the menorah's origin, you might want to look up the distinction between a temple menorah and a hanukkiah...
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Old 22nd May 2017, 05:21 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
It is more than just candles in a row. God left a "pattern" for its construction.

ETA: Well maybe he did. The Bible just says he showed the symbol to someone else...
Well, as no gods are convenient we need not be detained by their accounts.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:11 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Since you've got this great theory about the menorah's origin, you might want to look up the distinction between a temple menorah and a hanukkiah...
And while you're at it KTA, how about you find something that references the thing to your Atlantis.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:12 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Since you've got this great theory about the menorah's origin, you might want to look up the distinction between a temple menorah and a hanukkiah...
I listened to three rabbis talk about the menorah and Hanukkah this morning. One claimed a connection. The other two had slightly different explanations.

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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:14 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Well, as no gods are convenient we need not be detained by their accounts.
I was asked for a history of the menorah. Exodus is my only source.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:16 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
I was asked for a history of the menorah. Exodus is my only source.
Which is not the same as a god.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:17 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
And while you're at it KTA, how about you find something that references the thing to your Atlantis.
Again, AGAIN, there need not be any awareness of "Just Do It." to wear a pair of Nikes.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:19 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Which is not the same as a god.
I started by saying "recognized authority," but you didn't like that...
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:26 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Again, AGAIN, there need not be any awareness of "Just Do It." to wear a pair of Nikes.
That may be the most absurd, unsophisticated, wishful thinking I have ever encountered here. If I'm curious about the association between the slogan and the shoes or just the origin of "Just do It" I have ready access to evidence tying the two. Where is your such evidence for the menorah and your Atlantis?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:27 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
I started by saying "recognized authority," but you didn't like that...
Probably a good plan. I'd dismiss your unsupported assertions about the historicity of "Exodus" as easily as I dismiss your unsupported assertions about Atlantis.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:32 PM   #187
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Quote:
Until 2009, the earliest preserved representation[citation needed] of the menorah of the Temple was depicted in a frieze on the Arch of Titus, commemorating his triumphal parade in Rome following the destruction of Jerusalem in the year 70 CE.

In 2009, however, the ruins of a synagogue with pottery dating from before the destruction of the Second Temple were discovered under land in Magdala owned by the Legionaries of Christ, who had intended to construct a center for women's studies.[2] Inside that synagogue's ruins was discovered a rectangular stone, which had on its surface, among other ornate carvings, a depiction of the seven-lamp menorah differing markedly from the depiction on the Arch of Titus, probably carved by an eyewitness to the actual menorah present at the time in the Temple at Jerusalem. This menorah has arms which are polygonal, not rounded, and the base is not graduated but triangular.

Representations of the seven lamp artifact have been found on tombs and monuments dating from the 1st century as a frequently used symbol of Judaism and the Jewish people.[3]

It has been noted that the shape of the menorah bears a certain resemblance to that of the plant Salvia palaestina.[4][5]

Contrary to some modern designs, the ancient menorah did not contain anything resembling seven candles, as candles were unknown in the Middle East until about 400CE."
http://www.age-end.com/Restoration%2...gs/Menorah.htm
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:36 PM   #188
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Might want to use the quote function and attribute work not your own.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:39 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Might want to use the quote function and attribute work not your own.
You are right, my mistake. I included the work cited teach!
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:45 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Again, AGAIN, there need not be any awareness of "Just Do It." to wear a pair of Nikes.

It's equally true that there need not have been any actual Atlantis for a symbol of Atlantis to have existed, even if if turned out the menorah were based on it.

Millions would recognize the symbol of Starfleet, the symbol of the Rebel Alliance, the symbol of House Gryffindor, the symbol of the Autobots, the symbol of the Dharma Initiative... perhaps in the distant future one or more of those symbols will be discovered and adopted by a new religion, its original meaning forgotten...
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:49 PM   #191
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While you're editing, I take it that this plant Salvia palaestina was a common in Atlantis? Atlantian gardeners were famous for complaining of how the Salvia palaestina was crowding out their daffodils it was so prevalent. One famous papyri text notes how an Atlantian homeowner lamented how they had planted some nice wisteria to make an arbor over their patio and the Salvia palaestina had taken it right over. So common was it that it became the symbol of Atlantis.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:53 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
It's equally true that there need not have been any actual Atlantis for a symbol of Atlantis to have existed, even if if turned out the menorah were based on it.

Millions would recognize the symbol of Starfleet, the symbol of the Rebel Alliance, the symbol of House Gryffindor, the symbol of the Autobots, the symbol of the Dharma Initiative... perhaps in the distant future one or more of those symbols will be discovered and adopted by a new religion, its original meaning forgotten...
So, let's look to the author... Did Plato write other fictions of nonexistent lands? Was he prone to write down falsehoods?

Let's try to develop a pattern of behavior. Given his teacher Socrates NEVER wrote anything down, it 'seems' to me a student who chose TO write, might do so with purpose and intent....preservation, perhaps?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:55 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
So, let's look to the author... Did Plato write other fictions of nonexistent lands? Was he prone to write down falsehoods?

Let's try to develop a pattern of behavior. Given his teacher Socrates NEVER wrote anything down, it 'seems' to me a student who chose TO write, might do so with purpose and intent....preservation, perhaps?
Is your next adventure to find Plato's Cave?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:57 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
While you're editing, I take it that this plant Salvia palaestina was a common in Atlantis? Atlantian gardeners were famous for complaining of how the Salvia palaestina was crowding out their daffodils it was so prevalent. One famous papyri text notes how an Atlantian homeowner lamented how they had planted some nice wisteria to make an arbor over their patio and the Salvia palaestina had taken it right over. So common was it that it became the symbol of Atlantis.
I...don't...know what you mean. There is another text that mentions Atlantis? Citation please?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 07:00 PM   #195
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Did you read what you copied from Wikipedia? You seemed to think it important enough to include in your quote.

My overarching point with my sarcasm was to draw your attention to the fact that nothing in there associates your symbol with Atlantis. In fact, you seem to make the point that it's entirely Jewish.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 07:02 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
So, let's look to the author... Did Plato write other fictions of nonexistent lands? Was he prone to write down falsehoods?

Let's try to develop a pattern of behavior. Given his teacher Socrates NEVER wrote anything down, it 'seems' to me a student who chose TO write, might do so with purpose and intent....preservation, perhaps?

A more useful question might be, what reliable sources of information about what did and did not exist thousands of years earlier did Plato have?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 07:11 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
A more useful question might be, what reliable sources of information about what did and did not exist thousands of years earlier did Plato have?
So, now you want to toss out Plato, as a qualified Historian...someone who never checked sources and just jotted any old diddy down?
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Old 22nd May 2017, 07:17 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Did you read what you copied from Wikipedia? You seemed to think it important enough to include in your quote.

My overarching point with my sarcasm was to draw your attention to the fact that nothing in there associates your symbol with Atlantis. In fact, you seem to make the point that it's entirely Jewish.
"I'm just reporting facts."

The point in my posting that was that it was, maybe, the oldest known carving of the menorah...but it wasn't based on the one "in/on the mount"...it might have been based on the one in the Temple, still not the original source from "the authority" that bestowed it...

There is no mention as to why the "pattern" was chosen, or where this authority got it from. It's meaning even within Exodus is lost.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 07:20 PM   #199
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It's meaning even within Exodus is lost.
Rather my point.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 07:28 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Rather my point.
Haha, mine too.

The symbol was 'adopted' from an older source, "in/on a mount"...
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