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Old 23rd May 2017, 07:47 AM   #241
King of the Americas
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
On the contrary. I asked a question, which apparently you cannot answer.

I expected a list of the reliable sources of historical knowledge that Plato had access to. His habits and character might be relevant regarding how accurately he might have conveyed the information he received from those sources, but it all depends upon the sources first.
Is your Library of Alexandria card up to date?
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Old 23rd May 2017, 07:47 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You're not a historian, and you are saying what evidence "must" be disregarded???

Objection- Beyond the Scope of the Witness.
Are you an historian? If not, then by your own standards you cannot participate in this discussion.

Careful what you wish for.

Quote:
I'm saying you aren't qualified to disqualify Plato.
Plato wasn't an historian, either.

Stop playing games.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 07:50 AM   #243
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To reiterate:
This is the carving that OP claims is both three concentric circles, and the Jewish menorah (and therefore Atlantis for some reason):
Attached Images
File Type: jpg mnr2.jpg (87.9 KB, 8 views)
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Old 23rd May 2017, 07:52 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You know how another poster pointed out your hypocrisy when applying standards? This is another example.



I told you not to play games. We're not in a court, and a claim cannot be its own evidence.



Should I consider Star Wars evidence for Darth Vader?



That is pure BS. You just want the story to be true, and you'll use any argument, no matter how silly, to make it so.
I know this isn't court, but rules of evidence 'objectionable' behavior or conduct regarding witness testimony and 'literary evidence' are ethical bounds in which all should operate within a civil discussion.

You don't get to break with rules because you happen upon evidence you don't like or want to hear.

George Lucas is known for sci-fi, and has said openly, it is not real. Why are you associating the two. Why isn't THE apt comparison Homer's Troy?
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Old 23rd May 2017, 07:58 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Are you an historian? If not, then by your own standards you cannot participate in this discussion.

Careful what you wish for.

Plato wasn't an historian, either.

Stop playing games.
You may add to the record, but you may not disqualify authenticated evidence.

Plato wrote to inform, instruct, and advocate. He did not do so to entertain. Were he to write of something purely non-existent, without sound reason and principle, he would have undermined his credibility.

You speak of one of the world's greatest thinkers as though he were a corner block loon.

Stop doing that.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 07:59 AM   #246
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Mod Warning Will all participants kindly refresh their memories of their Membership Agreements, paying particular attention to rule 0 and rule 12.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 08:01 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
I know this isn't court, but rules of evidence 'objectionable' behavior or conduct regarding witness testimony and 'literary evidence' are ethical bounds in which all should operate within a civil discussion.
The point you're avoiding is that you're engaging in sheer speculation yourself. You've decided that Atlantis existed despite the only mention of it was in a fictional discussion invented by Plato in order to construct a political treatise around, and you think the Jewish Menorah represents Atlantis because... it looks somewhat similar to half of what Plato described.

You are in no position to say that other posters are speculating when they mention the facts we actually know.

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You don't get to break with rules because you happen upon evidence you don't like or want to hear.
Remind me when you actually provide some evidence for your claim.

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George Lucas is known for sci-fi
So is James Cameron.

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and has said openly, it is not real.
Citation, please. For all you know, Star Wars could be based on some information that Lucas came across that recounted ancient alien legends about the struggles of the Skywalkers and... look! Hieroglyphics of R2-D2 in an Egyptian tomb!

http://blog.tickets2you.com/wp-conte...RaidersWOS.jpg

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Why isn't THE apt comparison Homer's Troy?
Because it doesn't help you either way. Troy was assumed to be historical for a long time and was part of Greek tradition. Atlantis shows up ONLY in Plato and only as part of a single, fictional narrative.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 08:01 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
To reiterate:
This is the carving that OP claims is both three concentric circles, and the Jewish menorah (and therefore Atlantis for some reason):
No.

I see this ONLY as "not a menorah"... Between Atlantis vs. menorah, I choose Atlantis, even with more rings.

Lamps or candle sticks don't work upside down.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 08:06 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You may add to the record, but you may not disqualify authenticated evidence.
There is no authenticated evidence here, King.

Quote:
Plato wrote to inform, instruct, and advocate. He did not do so to entertain.
You're addressing an argument I did not make. It's still fiction.

Quote:
Were he to write of something purely non-existent, without sound reason and principle, he would have undermined his credibility.
Nonsense. He used a literary device to make a political point. There is nothing untoward about that. You are talking nonsense.

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You speak of one of the world's greatest thinkers as though he were a corner block loon.
That is your interpretation, not mine, and it is incredibly misinformed. You simply have no idea what you're talking about.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 08:08 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
No.

I see this ONLY as "not a menorah"... Between Atlantis vs. menorah, I choose Atlantis, even with more rings.

Lamps or candle sticks don't work upside down.
You started this thread claiming the menorah was a symbol for Atlantis, and claimed this carving from Cameron's documentary was evidence.
Later you said:
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
It's the number of concentric circles...
The Cup and ring marks you posted look very dissimilar to the 3 concentric rings of Atlantis...
But now the menorah connection is gone, and the number of rings doesn't matter anymore?
Basically negating everything you claimed before.

Your turn to support your claims, or retract them.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 08:10 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You may add to the record, but you may not disqualify authenticated evidence.

Plato wrote to inform, instruct, and advocate. He did not do so to entertain. Were he to write of something purely non-existent, without sound reason and principle, he would have undermined his credibility.

Plato wrote of a philosophy in which the material world that we perceive with our senses is less real than an invisible intangible world of thoughts and thought forms.

Plato wrote about this philosophy primarily through dialogues most of which, as far as anyone can tell, did not take place and could not possibly have been heard first-hand by Plato if they did.

He claimed the philosophical ideas he wrote about originated from the muses. You know, the nine Greek goddesses that fly around giving people ideas.

Writing about things that are purely nonexistent (in the mere material world, at least) is what Plato is famous for. Which is just as well, because (like everyone in his time) he knew bugger all about how anything in the material world actually works.

Still, despite all that he might have had access to reliable sources of historical information about Atlantis which he reported in one of his otherwise fictional dialogues. What were those sources, again?
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Old 23rd May 2017, 08:36 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
-Find an inscription of a well known religious symbol
-Claim it's a map of half of Atlantis
-People tell you the thing that looks like a lamp and is only ever described as a literal or metaphorical lamp probably represents a lamp.
-Claim the absence of pre-judaic providence and the fact that every source we have contradicts you is proof the jews forgot it was from Atlantis, so it must have been from Atlantis.

I can't tell whether you're so engrossed by a need to be in on sooper seekrit ancient lore that you can't see you're imagining things, or if you're just being disingenuous.
Bingo!!
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Old 23rd May 2017, 04:11 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
You started this thread claiming the menorah was a symbol for Atlantis, and claimed this carving from Cameron's documentary was evidence.
Later you said:


But now the menorah connection is gone, and the number of rings doesn't matter anymore?
Basically negating everything you claimed before.

Your turn to support your claims, or retract them.
That's not a proper application of my stance...

In regards to 'this symbol' I think ONLY that this is not a lamp or candle holder. Comparatively speaking, it looks more like Atlantis than a menorah. Upside-downness disqualifies it as a menorah. Maybe the relief featured the negative space as the rings?
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Old 23rd May 2017, 04:13 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
There is no authenticated evidence here, King.



You are not qualified to disqualify Plato.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 04:17 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Plato wrote of a philosophy in which the material world that we perceive with our senses is less real than an invisible intangible world of thoughts and thought forms.

Plato wrote about this philosophy primarily through dialogues most of which, as far as anyone can tell, did not take place and could not possibly have been heard first-hand by Plato if they did.

He claimed the philosophical ideas he wrote about originated from the muses. You know, the nine Greek goddesses that fly around giving people ideas.

Writing about things that are purely nonexistent (in the mere material world, at least) is what Plato is famous for. Which is just as well, because (like everyone in his time) he knew bugger all about how anything in the material world actually works.

Still, despite all that he might have had access to reliable sources of historical information about Atlantis which he reported in one of his otherwise fictional dialogues. What were those sources, again?
"Successes."

Plato wrote from that which he witness and have evidence of, not "from muses" literally. Sounds like a marketing ploy. He wrote to preserve, inform, and most importantly 'teach'... It would have undermined his authority to make stuff up with no basis in reality.

I posted a link to a Phd's paper. You clearly didn't read that either.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 05:16 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Yes, but there was evidence from which to make this claim. It was not 'baseless.'



You're pettifogging the issue here. I am saying herein, that the lack of evidence as to what this lamp/menorah actually represents is evidence "that it was adopted." Not where or why it was adopted from. We don't know why the biblical authority said build this like this, nor what "pattern" he is referring to.



Unmentioned...? Except for Plato and where ever he received his information from...?



What do they (Jewish people) claim it represents? I've found conflicting theories...
Do any Jewish sources relate it to Atlantis? Is there any mention of the menorah and Atlantis by an original source in the same sentence?
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Old 23rd May 2017, 05:17 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
"Successes."

Plato wrote from that which he witness and have evidence of, not "from muses" literally. Sounds like a marketing ploy. He wrote to preserve, inform, and most importantly 'teach'... It would have undermined his authority to make stuff up with no basis in reality.

I posted a link to a Phd's paper. You clearly didn't read that either.
So "The Cave" wasn't an allegory?
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Old 23rd May 2017, 05:19 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
I know this isn't court, but rules of evidence 'objectionable' behavior or conduct regarding witness testimony and 'literary evidence' are ethical bounds in which all should operate within a civil discussion.

You don't get to break with rules because you happen upon evidence you don't like or want to hear.

George Lucas is known for sci-fi, and has said openly, it is not real. Why are you associating the two. Why isn't THE apt comparison Homer's Troy?
I'm sorry, I missed where you presented evidence to relate the menorah to Atlantis. Kindly show that please.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 05:20 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You may add to the record, but you may not disqualify authenticated evidence.

Plato wrote to inform, instruct, and advocate. He did not do so to entertain. Were he to write of something purely non-existent, without sound reason and principle, he would have undermined his credibility.

You speak of one of the world's greatest thinkers as though he were a corner block loon.

Stop doing that.
Yeah, so I take it you found his cave.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 05:24 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
That's not a proper application of my stance...

In regards to 'this symbol' I think ONLY that this is not a lamp or candle holder. Comparatively speaking, it looks more like Atlantis than a menorah. Upside-downness disqualifies it as a menorah. Maybe the relief featured the negative space as the rings?
The symbol could represent the intersection of 'dis-knowledge'...

One traveler goes to a site containing concentric circles possibly Atlantis, goes back home carves a similar symbol on or in a mount, tells others this thing is cool, build it this is what it looks like, and those who receive it, interpret it as "a lamp"...let's add candles!
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Old 23rd May 2017, 05:28 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Do any Jewish sources relate it to Atlantis? Is there any mention of the menorah and Atlantis by an original source in the same sentence?
No.

And I need not have ever heard of the phrase "Just Do It.", because I have a pair of Nikes.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 05:31 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
No.

And I need not have ever heard of the phrase "Just Do It.", because I have a pair of Nikes.
How does that tie the menorah to your Atlantis? Please be specific.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 05:32 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
The symbol could represent the intersection of 'dis-knowledge'...

One traveler goes to a site containing concentric circles possibly Atlantis, goes back home carves a similar symbol on or in a mount, tells others this thing is cool, build it this is what it looks like, and those who receive it, interpret it as "a lamp"...let's add candles!
Yet neither traveler knows what the author of the symbol means because they can't figure out what the author of the symbol meant.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 05:38 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
No.

And I need not have ever heard of the phrase "Just Do It.", because I have a pair of Nikes.
Yet if you had to, you could find the connection between the slogan and the shoes. Where is your evidence for such a connection?

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Old 23rd May 2017, 05:46 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Is your Library of Alexandria card up to date?
Is there a document that was in the Library of Alexandria you'd like to introduce as evidence?
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Old 23rd May 2017, 05:52 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
How does that tie the menorah to your Atlantis? Please be specific.
I'm saying symbols get adopted, their true meanings, associated phrases, locations don't have to be known. And the inverse is also true. There probably not a lot of Nike symbols on their factories in Thailand...

My hometown does not emblazon its 'mark' on items we create.

You want or are otherwise looking for ties, when the only one necessary is the symbol, and a line of providence.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 05:54 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Yet neither traveler knows what the author of the symbol means because they can't figure out what the author of the symbol meant.
Again, AGAIN, and for you AGAIN.

Symbols can, and this one WAS adopted without an associated meaning or origin.

God, or the biblical authority said, "make this," "the pattern is over there"...that's it.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 05:55 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Yet if you had to, you could find the connection between the slogan and the shoes. Where is your evidence for such a connection?
The swoosh is the only connection needed.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 05:56 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Is there a document that was in the Library of Alexandria you'd like to introduce as evidence?
Given the date of its existence, likely.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 06:13 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
The symbol could represent the intersection of 'dis-knowledge'...

One traveler goes to a site containing concentric circles possibly Atlantis, goes back home carves a similar symbol on or in a mount, tells others this thing is cool, build it this is what it looks like, and those who receive it, interpret it as "a lamp"...let's add candles!
Or perhaps sharing of a Danish pastry, eh?
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Old 23rd May 2017, 06:29 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Or perhaps sharing of a Danish pastry, eh?
Could be, is it a well known powerful pastry, that extended its existence across millennia?
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Old 23rd May 2017, 07:28 PM   #272
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Why is this so hard for everyone to understand?

1) The menorah is a symbol.
2) Symbols can and do evolve over time, even losing their original meaning.
3) Atlantis had three concentric circles.
4) If you take a menorah, delete a bunch of little bits, double it, reverse one of the images, and stick them together, you get three concentric circles.
5) Therefore we have demonstrated that the original menorah image was a representation of Atlantis which was cut in half and eventually changed into a lamp.
6) James Cameron made a video of some submerged ruins which included an image of five curved lines.
7) These lines could be extended in a way to make 5 concentric circles.
8) This submerged ruin is Atlantis.
9) The five circles were probably an original menorah.
10) Therefore we know that Atlantis was real, was located off the coast of Spain, that it's people drew Atlantis as having 5 concentric circles, and that the menorah is a symbol of Atlantis.

The logic is impeccable. All you nit pickers are just nit picking.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 07:32 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Plato wrote from that which he witness and have evidence of, not "from muses" literally. Sounds like a marketing ploy. He wrote to preserve, inform, and most importantly 'teach'... It would have undermined his authority to make stuff up with no basis in reality.

Plato wrote that the world perceived by the senses (that is, everything we witness and have evidence of) is of little relevance, mere shadows on the wall, and that true reality is abstract ideal forms that are invisible and intangible.

Plato would accordingly reject everything you just said about Plato. If you're going to cite Plato as an authority, flouting Plato's own philosophy in the process undermines every claim you make.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 07:58 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by TheSapient View Post
Why is this so hard for everyone to understand?

1) The menorah is a symbol.
2) Symbols can and do evolve over time, even losing their original meaning.
3) Atlantis had three concentric circles.
4) If you take a menorah, delete a bunch of little bits, double it, reverse one of the images, and stick them together, you get three concentric circles.
5) Therefore we have demonstrated that the original menorah image was a representation of Atlantis which was cut in half and eventually changed into a lamp.
6) James Cameron made a video of some submerged ruins which included an image of five curved lines.
7) These lines could be extended in a way to make 5 concentric circles.
8) This submerged ruin is Atlantis.
9) The five circles were probably an original menorah.
10) Therefore we know that Atlantis was real, was located off the coast of Spain, that it's people drew Atlantis as having 5 concentric circles, and that the menorah is a symbol of Atlantis.

The logic is impeccable. All you nit pickers are just nit picking.
Add a line about timelines, and how stratified layers date the location to a known destruction period, and beef up the first with biblical non-references to meaning and origin.

Also, menorah-wise, no need to "take off bits", if you use the most original version.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 08:01 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Plato wrote that the world perceived by the senses (that is, everything we witness and have evidence of) is of little relevance, mere shadows on the wall, and that true reality is abstract ideal forms that are invisible and intangible.

Plato would accordingly reject everything you just said about Plato. If you're going to cite Plato as an authority, flouting Plato's own philosophy in the process undermines every claim you make.
My objection is your employment of fictional metaphors = 'pure fiction.'

The allegory of The Cave while not real, certainly contains "truth"...try to bringing enlightenment to people chained in ignorance and see if you are welcomed back...
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Old 23rd May 2017, 08:03 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
So "The Cave" wasn't an allegory?
Apparently it's optional. One may cherry pick which bits of plato are real and which are not as suits arguendo du jour.

Or simply make it up out of whole cloth.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 08:05 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Apparently it's optional. One may cherry pick which bits of plato are real and which are not as suits arguendo du jour.

Or simply make it up out of whole cloth.
Does the allegory contain truth?
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Old 23rd May 2017, 11:58 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
That's not a proper application of my stance...

In regards to 'this symbol' I think ONLY that this is not a lamp or candle holder. Comparatively speaking, it looks more like Atlantis than a menorah. Upside-downness disqualifies it as a menorah. Maybe the relief featured the negative space as the rings?
If it is not a menorah, then why use this carving as the evidence that the map of Atlantis symbol evolved into the menorah? That was your argument when you started this thread. Now you're weaseling out of that by claiming that it doesn't look like a lamp, and at the same time implying that this is still the origin of the menorah symbol. Even though it's upside down, has too many branches, and no central stand.
Face it, it looks as much like a menorah as the McDonald's logo does.
You didn't count the negative spaces, did you? Hint, there's more than three...
So we have a symbol that's not connected to Judaism, doesn't look like a menorah, and doesn't look like the map of Atlantis (three concentric circles with a canal connecting them). However, you still maintain that your claims are correct, and you keep refusing to support your own claims.
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Old 24th May 2017, 12:04 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Does the allegory contain truth?
No. No philosophical truth, because there is no realer-than-real world where abstract concepts are located.
And no historical truth, because it was never meant to be a historical document.
If you find a cave with remnants of a fire where someone has been held captive in classical times, you have no more found 'Plato's actual cave' than finding bits of a building underwater means you've found 'the real Atlantis', or the real Ys, or the real Numenor.

Now, if someone finds an underwater city that matches the location, description and timeframe of Atlantis, and find evidence it was abandoned after a cataclysmic event, I will accept I was wrong and this might be Atlantis.
However, what the people in Cameron's little hobby project are doing is finding ruins ranging from the Neolithic right through the Bronze Age, hundreds of miles from one another, some in locations that have never been flooded, and claim that somehow, they're all connected to Atlantis, offering no other there evidence than that an arch scratched into a rock might be a super secret symbol for another even more secret symbol, only for some reason cut in half, and the find of a stone with a hole which might have been an anchor.

Last edited by Porpoise of Life; 24th May 2017 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 24th May 2017, 12:36 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Does the allegory contain truth?

It contradicts what you have claimed about Plato.
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