ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Matt Rouge , michael prescott , psychics

Reply
Old 6th July 2017, 09:19 AM   #81
caveman1917
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,550
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But using my special definition of words I was saying "the sun is a star" - so you are saying that you think it is only 50/50 that the sun is a star! Amazing.
Before you told me it meant "the sun is a star"? Yes, it would be 50/50 because at that point it might as well have meant "the sun is a not a star". You don't really grasp how this reasoning thing works, do you?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 09:23 AM   #82
MuDPhuD
Muse
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 596
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
From the article:
(my highlight)
" Under the Perceptual Training Systems and Tools banner, extrasensory perception has a new name in the modern era: “sensemaking.” In official Defense Department literature sensemaking is defined as “a motivated continuous effort to understand connections (which can be among people, places, and events) in order to anticipate their trajectories and act effectively.”"

It appears from the article that the military believes they are training soldiers to use their senses and "intuition" to anticipate actions. This is not at all "extrasensory"; It is teaching them to use their unconscious mental processing and act on the intuitions that processing creates.

Also from the article:
"Commander Joseph Cohn, a program manager at the naval office, told the New York Times, “These reports from the field often detailed a ‘sixth sense’ or ‘Spidey sense’ that alerted them to an impending attack or I.E.D., or that allowed them to respond to a novel situation without consciously analyzing the situation.”"

The soldier feels as if they are using a sixth sense, they get a "feeling" and act on it, and in some cases this has proven to save lives. This is not a description of psi, it is a description of how the brain works to process multiple streams of information unconsciously and then plops the result into awareness so the individual can act on it. It feels like the idea comes out of thin air, because the consciousness can not access exactly what sensory factors lead to the conclusion of what is going to happen.
This is analogous to the solution to a problem suddenly appearing in consciousness (Eureka!), or to the "mystical" origin of creative impulses which generate art and literature. These predictions, solutions and inspirations arise from the brain, but the consciousness does not have access to the underlying processes, only to the results.

I commend the military for recognizing the importance of unconscious processing and its relationship to intuition, and for attempting to train soldiers to use their brains more effectively and to trust their intuitions in stressful conditions.

Of course authors like Annie Jacobsen, believers in psi, and possible even members of the pentagon staff will want to misinterpret this natural phenomenon as "extrasensory" or as evidence of psi.

Remember, intuition of this kind is not infallible, but of course the number of instances where a soldier "feels something", and acts, only to find nothing was there is not reported. Only the "few" "occasional" amazing positive results are reported and leave a lasting impression.
Sound familiar?
MuDPhuD is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 09:36 AM   #83
caveman1917
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,550
Originally Posted by MuDPhuD View Post
Remember, intuition of this kind is not infallible, but of course the number of instances where a soldier "feels something", and acts, only to find nothing was there is not reported. Only the "few" "occasional" amazing positive results are reported and leave a lasting impression.
Sound familiar?
Sounds very familiar. Makes me wonder why you'd commend the military to operate by those standards when you can define it as "not psi" but probably wouldn't when you can define it as "psi" - even though it's the same standard. Besides, they talk about a sixth sense through which the information about things they could not know about is provided to them, which would make it extrasensory perception. It's basically psi without calling it psi.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 09:40 AM   #84
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,169
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Nope. A skeptic's working assumption is that we don't know whether the claim is true or false. You're just doing the believer thing but from the other side.

A: "psi does not exist."
Skeptic: "is there evidence of that claim?"
A: "no."
Skeptic: "then the claim is assumed to be false, ie psi is assumed to exist."

See the problem?
That's not how belief works at all.

The null position is that unless evidence exists for X then it is not reasonable to accept any claims about X.

Belief is being fervid to one side of the equation despite any evidence that may come.
__________________
I AM THE DREADED PAPIER-MÂCHÉ CENSOR!
------------------------------------------------
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
----------------------------------------------
Proud woo denier
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 09:51 AM   #85
caveman1917
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,550
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
The null position is that unless evidence exists for X then it is not reasonable to accept any claims about X.
Not really but close.

Quote:
Belief is being fervid to one side of the equation despite any evidence that may come.
A bit further away now. If a belief is adjusted in response to evidence does that make it stop being a belief?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 09:59 AM   #86
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,169
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Not really but close.



A bit further away now. If a belief is adjusted in response to evidence does that make it stop being a belief?
1: k...

2: Yes. That was easy.


Now for my question, Let's say 100 people upload video's entitled 'Psi powers move keys' and in each one sure enough without touching the keys people are moving them and let's make it even more interesting will say each video is done with scientific rigor; No strings, camera tricks etc.

Would that be proof of psi?
__________________
I AM THE DREADED PAPIER-MÂCHÉ CENSOR!
------------------------------------------------
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
----------------------------------------------
Proud woo denier

Last edited by Nay_Sayer; 6th July 2017 at 10:00 AM.
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 10:02 AM   #87
caveman1917
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,550
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
1: k...

2: Yes. That was easy.
If "I believe the Earth is round" is not a belief then what is it? Note that I'm willing to change it, should sufficient evidence be provided otherwise, so by your definition it can't be a belief.

Quote:
Now for my question, Let's say 100 people upload video's entitled 'Psi powers move keys' and in each one sure enough without touching the keys people are moving them and let's make it even more interesting will say each video is done with scientific rigor; No strings, camera tricks etc.

Would that be proof of psi?
No. Why would you think it would?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 6th July 2017 at 10:05 AM.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 10:02 AM   #88
MuDPhuD
Muse
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 596
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Sounds very familiar. Makes me wonder why you'd commend the military to operate by those standards when you can define it as "not psi" but probably wouldn't when you can define it as "psi" - even though it's the same standard. Besides, they talk about a sixth sense through which the information about things they could not know about is provided to them, which would make it extrasensory perception. It's basically psi without calling it psi.
Could you quote that part? I missed it.
MuDPhuD is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 10:11 AM   #89
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,038
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If you think that was unsuccessful then you shouldn't, it'd be too boring, and you'd probably get annoying pretty fast with things like implying that 1 + 1 equals 3 or such - because that's what JayUtah's latest in that thread implies, among other things.

Believers never do. Interestingly, I haven't been able to catch JayUtah in any such "believer errors", it's just that his math is so deplorably bad. Over 5 years of this you'd think the guy would've bothered reading a damn probability textbook.
My degree is in Mathematics, I will use my own judgement as to whose Maths is "deplorably bad".
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 10:12 AM   #90
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,169
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If "I believe the Earth is round" is not a belief then what is it? Note that I'm willing to change it, should sufficient evidence be provided otherwise, so by your definition it can't be a belief.



No. Why would you think it would?

The earth is round is a factual statement and in my case, It's something I accept because of the preponderance of evidence for it.

I'm glad you said that I was going to point out, That all we could say is an event is happening and the cause is still unknown until further investigation happens.
__________________
I AM THE DREADED PAPIER-MÂCHÉ CENSOR!
------------------------------------------------
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
----------------------------------------------
Proud woo denier
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 10:22 AM   #91
caveman1917
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,550
Originally Posted by MuDPhuD View Post
Could you quote that part? I missed it.
Quote:
“These reports from the field often detailed a ‘sixth sense’ or ‘Spidey sense’ that alerted them to an impending attack or I.E.D., or that allowed them to respond to a novel situation without consciously analyzing the situation.”
Those are clearly claims of extrasensory perception.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 10:34 AM   #92
caveman1917
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,550
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
My degree is in Mathematics, I will use my own judgement as to whose Maths is "deplorably bad".
Usually it's the one whose maths implies that 1 + 1 equals 3. It's a dead giveaway really.

Either way, your judgement counts for nothing unless you can produce proof.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 6th July 2017 at 11:03 AM.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 10:38 AM   #93
caveman1917
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,550
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
The earth is round is a factual statement and in my case, It's something I accept because of the preponderance of evidence for it.
What is a factual statement other than a belief which accounts for the available evidence?

Quote:
I'm glad you said that I was going to point out, That all we could say is an event is happening and the cause is still unknown until further investigation happens.
What event is happening?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 10:41 AM   #94
MuDPhuD
Muse
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 596
“These reports from the field often detailed a ‘sixth sense’ or ‘Spidey sense’ that alerted them to an impending attack or I.E.D., or that allowed them to respond to a novel situation without consciously analyzing the situation.”
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Those are clearly claims of extrasensory perception.

No, those are claims of "respond...without consciously analyzing". As I said the processing is unconscious, only the result is conscious. Yes, the soldier reports "feeling" a 6th sense. That feeling, in the rational interpretation, is based on what their brain is doing with the sensory information at hand, combined with their past experience and training. It is quite well explained in this way, no need to invoke esp or psi, as I described previously. That's why the Pentagon calls it "a motivated continuous effort to understand connections (which can be among people, places, and events) in order to anticipate their trajectories and act effectively". Nothing supernatural about it.
Is there another example showing where "information about things they could not know about is provided to them, which would make it extrasensory perception"??
MuDPhuD is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 10:51 AM   #95
caveman1917
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,550
Originally Posted by MuDPhuD View Post
“These reports from the field often detailed a ‘sixth sense’ or ‘Spidey sense’ that alerted them to an impending attack or I.E.D., or that allowed them to respond to a novel situation without consciously analyzing the situation.”


No, those are claims of "respond...without consciously analyzing".
It literally claims another sense which alerted them.

Quote:
As I said the processing is unconscious, only the result is conscious. Yes, the soldier reports "feeling" a 6th sense. That feeling, in the rational interpretation, is based on what their brain is doing with the sensory information at hand, combined with their past experience and training. It is quite well explained in this way, no need to invoke esp or psi, as I described previously.
Are you claiming it is rational to train an army to use their gut instincts merely because a couple of soldiers claim to have extrasensory perception? In a way that's even less rational than training them to use this extra, unevidenced, sense.

Quote:
Is there another example showing where "information about things they could not know about is provided to them, which would make it extrasensory perception"??
Not that I know of.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 11:07 AM   #96
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,169
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What is a factual statement other than a belief which accounts for the available evidence?



What event is happening?
It's a factual statement backed up by evidence, What is unclear about that?

I am aware other people use the word belief differently than I and will concede that the term is interchangeable in some instances.

In the hypothetical I set up, unknown, But what I don't get to do is randomly assign an explanation to it; IE: Invisible Pixies moved the keys.
__________________
I AM THE DREADED PAPIER-MÂCHÉ CENSOR!
------------------------------------------------
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
----------------------------------------------
Proud woo denier
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 11:17 AM   #97
MuDPhuD
Muse
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 596
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
It literally claims another sense which alerted them.
No, it claims that soldiers report feeling a 6th sense. I have had that feeling myself, and I believe most of us have. Its part of how the human brain works. Unless you can offer a compelling example of a soldier or anyone else who has received "information about things they could not know about" then I will continue to believe the rational explanation.
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Are you claiming it is rational to train an army to use their gut instincts merely because a couple of soldiers claim to have extrasensory perception? In a way that's even less rational than training them to use this extra, unevidenced, sense.
No, that is your own straw man to defend if you wish.
I am claiming that relying on your gut instinct in tense dangerous situations is a tricky business, and some training for those who might be able to save lives is a good idea.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Not that I know of.
In that case I will stick to the rational explanation, as there appears to be no evidence of psi here.
MuDPhuD is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 11:25 AM   #98
caveman1917
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,550
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
It's a factual statement backed up by evidence, What is unclear about that?

I am aware other people use the word belief differently than I and will concede that the term is interchangeable in some instances.

In the hypothetical I set up, unknown, But what I don't get to do is randomly assign an explanation to it; IE: Invisible Pixies moved the keys.
And how exactly is this relevant again?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 11:29 AM   #99
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,169
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
And how exactly is this relevant again?
The hypothetical?

I set it up to see if you understand that evidence claiming X is happening isn't the same as proving X is happening.

That aside; Without evidence should I accept a claim at its face value?
__________________
I AM THE DREADED PAPIER-MÂCHÉ CENSOR!
------------------------------------------------
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
----------------------------------------------
Proud woo denier
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 11:34 AM   #100
caveman1917
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,550
Originally Posted by MuDPhuD View Post
No, it claims that soldiers report feeling a 6th sense. I have had that feeling myself, and I believe most of us have. Its part of how the human brain works. Unless you can offer a compelling example of a soldier or anyone else who has received "information about things they could not know about" then I will continue to believe the rational explanation.
And? Clearly these soldiers don't believe it.

Quote:
No, that is your own straw man to defend if you wish.
I am claiming that relying on your gut instinct in tense dangerous situations is a tricky business, and some training for those who might be able to save lives is a good idea.
It's irrational and a good idea? It is irrational to train soldiers to use their "precognitive skills" merely because a couple of them think they have extrasensory perception, right?

Quote:
In that case I will stick to the rational explanation, as there appears to be no evidence of psi here.
Again, and?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 11:38 AM   #101
caveman1917
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,550
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
The hypothetical?

I set it up to see if you understand that evidence claiming X is happening isn't the same as proving X is happening.

That aside; Without evidence should I accept a claim at its face value?
Without evidence you should adopt a maximum entropy distribution over possible outcomes, ie P(claim) = P(not claim).
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 11:48 AM   #102
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,169
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Without evidence you should adopt a maximum entropy distribution over possible outcomes, ie P(claim) = P(not claim).
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
__________________
I AM THE DREADED PAPIER-MÂCHÉ CENSOR!
------------------------------------------------
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
----------------------------------------------
Proud woo denier
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 11:54 AM   #103
caveman1917
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,550
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Yes exactly, like "aliens with psi powers exist in the universe" or "aliens with psi powers do not exist in the universe" or any other number of assertions. I'm still not seeing the relevance though.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 01:20 PM   #104
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,230
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Assumed false until and unless evidence offered to support it.
OK, how about "aliens exist somewhere in the universe"? I have a hard time believing you assume that is false, so I think your hang up is on psi. Why? I can see skepticism about human psi abilities, but non-human ones? That sounds closed minded.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 01:22 PM   #105
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,230
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Wait, if I assert that the next largest prime to be discovered will end in an even number, are you going to dismiss that, because I have no evidence? Wouldn't the proper attitude be to reserve judgement? Not dismiss, but be agnostic about?
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 01:23 PM   #106
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,230
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You would need to define your terms before the question becomes meaningful.
LOL. You seemed pretty comfortable with the terms before my post.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 02:01 PM   #107
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,038
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
OK, how about "aliens exist somewhere in the universe"? I have a hard time believing you assume that is false, so I think your hang up is on psi. Why? I can see skepticism about human psi abilities, but non-human ones? That sounds closed minded.
Psi is being defined in this thread as paranormal abilities, i. e. abilities which are incompatible with the laws of physics. We know enough about the laws of physics and their universal applicability (IMO at least) to place the burden of proof firmly on those who believe such abilities exist, regardless of whether they attribute them to humans or aliens. Alien life is, however, compatible with the laws of physics.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 02:16 PM   #108
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,230
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Psi is being defined in this thread as paranormal abilities, i. e. abilities which are incompatible with the laws of physics. We know enough about the laws of physics and their universal applicability (IMO at least) to place the burden of proof firmly on those who believe such abilities exist, regardless of whether they attribute them to humans or aliens. Alien life is, however, compatible with the laws of physics.
Fair enough. If human psi was proven, I would be mildly surprised, which means I think the odds of it existing are somewhat low. If aliens showed up and demonstrated psi abilities, I wouldn't be surprised at all. I could argue that this is the correct way to look at things, but it would be a lengthy discussion and probably nobody's mind would change.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 02:42 PM   #109
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 77,253
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Before you told me it meant "the sun is a star"? Yes, it would be 50/50 because at that point it might as well have meant "the sun is a not a star". You don't really grasp how this reasoning thing works, do you?
Or I could have been saying anything else, you still seem not to be able to grasp that meaning is required before one can make any judgement on any claim.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 02:51 PM   #110
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,554
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What is a factual statement other than a belief which accounts for the available evidence?
Eh? A statement can account for the available evidence without being true. To be factual, a statement has to be true, by definition.

But it doesn't have to be believed, by definition. People often reject facts and believe some other plausible account, but the truth is still the truth, despite false belief.

In other words I reject every part of your definition of a "factual statement".

Last edited by Craig B; 6th July 2017 at 03:24 PM. Reason: Spelling typo
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 02:52 PM   #111
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 77,253
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
OK, how about "aliens exist somewhere in the universe"? I have a hard time believing you assume that is false, so I think your hang up is on psi. Why? I can see skepticism about human psi abilities, but non-human ones? That sounds closed minded.
Problem is what is meant by Psi. If it is what psi originally was an explanation for then no we have no reason to believe that aliens could have those powers.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 05:11 PM   #112
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 54,086
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
As the saying goes, Don't leave your mind so open it falls out onto the floor.
This!!!!
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 07:25 PM   #113
caveman1917
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,550
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Or I could have been saying anything else
Indeed, your point being?

Quote:
you still seem not to be able to grasp that meaning is required before one can make any judgement on any claim.
No need to project your own limitations on others. I'm perfectly able to give you the maximum entropy distribution given only the (finite) number of outcomes (in this case just 2, ie "claim" and "not claim") without needing those outcomes to be "meaningful" - whatever that even means. If you fail at doing this then that's hardly my problem.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 07:29 PM   #114
caveman1917
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,550
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Wait, if I assert that the next largest prime to be discovered will end in an even number, are you going to dismiss that, because I have no evidence?
It would be better to dismiss that because even numbers greater than 2 can't be prime, them being divisible by 2 and all that.

Quote:
Wouldn't the proper attitude be to reserve judgement? Not dismiss, but be agnostic about?
Did you know there are no planets around stars in Andromeda? There is no evidence of them, therefor there are none.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 07:51 PM   #115
caveman1917
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,550
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Psi is being defined in this thread as paranormal abilities, i. e. abilities which are incompatible with the laws of physics. We know enough about the laws of physics and their universal applicability (IMO at least) to place the burden of proof firmly on those who believe such abilities exist, regardless of whether they attribute them to humans or aliens. Alien life is, however, compatible with the laws of physics.
Ageing slower or faster than other people also used to be incompatible with the laws of physics. Every new theory in physics is going to be incompatible with the then-known laws of physics, otherwise it wouldn't be a new theory. If you're claiming that no new physics can be discovered which would allow aliens to perform acts which we would call psi, as you seem to be doing, then you seem to have a burden of proof as well.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 08:18 PM   #116
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,230
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
It would be better to dismiss that because even numbers greater than 2 can't be prime, them being divisible by 2 and all that.



Did you know there are no planets around stars in Andromeda? There is no evidence of them, therefor there are none.
You got me on the prime thing. Funny what we overlook sometimes.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 09:36 PM   #117
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,038
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Ageing slower or faster than other people also used to be incompatible with the laws of physics. Every new theory in physics is going to be incompatible with the then-known laws of physics, otherwise it wouldn't be a new theory. If you're claiming that no new physics can be discovered which would allow aliens to perform acts which we would call psi, as you seem to be doing, then you seem to have a burden of proof as well.
Some humans can perform acts which look like psi, they're called magicians.

The definition of paranormal abilities as abilities which are incompatible with the laws of physics does not presume that all those laws are already known.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2017, 10:25 PM   #118
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 77,253
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Indeed, your point being?



No need to project your own limitations on others. I'm perfectly able to give you the maximum entropy distribution given only the (finite) number of outcomes (in this case just 2, ie "claim" and "not claim") without needing those outcomes to be "meaningful" - whatever that even means. If you fail at doing this then that's hardly my problem.
No you can't if you don't know what the claim is, you can't even know how many claims are even being made if there is no understanding of the words behind the claim.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2017, 08:01 AM   #119
caveman1917
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 4,550
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Some humans can perform acts which look like psi, they're called magicians.
Yes, that is obviously what I was talking about...

I meant the application of hitherto unknown physics so as to perform acts which we - ie not knowing the physics involved - would consider instances of psi.

Quote:
The definition of paranormal abilities as abilities which are incompatible with the laws of physics does not presume that all those laws are already known.
How would you be able to tell, given that at no point you can presume to know all the laws of physics? Seems a pretty useless definition. Besides, I thought psi believers tend to be fans of claiming their claimed abilities are caused by some new unknown physics, hence all the quantum woo stuff.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2017, 08:09 AM   #120
Dr.Sid
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic
Posts: 1,136
It's funny how people who want to believe in something unexplainable always try to explain it ..
Dr.Sid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:34 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.