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Tags Brazil politics , CJ Hopkins , Democratic Socialism , fascism , Jair Bolsonaro , Pepe Escobar

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Old 30th October 2018, 07:03 AM   #41
Eddie Dane
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Stalin ruled for 30 years and racially cleansed Ukraine.
Was that about race? I thought it was class and resistance to the party. Oh and needing to sell their food to pay for the modernisation of the USSR.

I just started on Stalin, the court of the Red Tsar by Montefiore. The first chapter is great.
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Old 30th October 2018, 07:06 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Was that about race? I thought it was class and resistance to the party. Oh and needing to sell their food to pay for the modernisation of the USSR.

I just started on Stalin, the court of the Red Tsar by Montefiore. The first chapter is great.
Ignore the whataboutism please. It's not helpful.

Baylor felt he needed to pop in and shill a bit for the fascists, but we don't need to pay him any attention.
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Old 30th October 2018, 07:06 AM   #43
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Gee thanks for the wikipedia link.
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Old 30th October 2018, 07:08 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Gee thanks for the wikipedia link.
Skepticism at its finest.
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Old 30th October 2018, 07:09 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Was that about race?
More ethnic than racial. Though some would disagree but I won't open that can of worms.
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Old 30th October 2018, 07:10 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Gee thanks for the wikipedia link.
You're welcome. In it you can read about how Brazil were late to outlaw slavery and that there are many racially charged problems in the country between the white and the black population.

I post this because I took it that you and another poster argued that you can't ethnically cleanse Brazil.
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Old 30th October 2018, 08:00 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Fascism (broadly defined) sucks, but it usually doesn't last more than a one-leader cycle.

They overplay their hand and get killed (Hitler, Mussolini), or so brutal that they get a revolution (Salazar?), or manage to actually set up a conservative and tranquil state but get voted out before or after death (Pinochet and Franco).
I think the last one is because Fascist states are scary, but they are also boring, so young people eventually rebel.

The whole Führer-prinzip is flawed. You get one strong leader with no mechanism for succession.
Even if they are deposed within a few years (which as has been pointed out is by no means guaranteed), then the people living under the oppressive regime have a really crappy time for those few years. Many of them will be killed or forcibly exiled. Regardless, it will be a humanitarian disaster.
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Old 30th October 2018, 08:12 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Even if they are deposed within a few years (which as has been pointed out is by no means guaranteed), then the people living under the oppressive regime have a really crappy time for those few years. Many of them will be killed or forcibly exiled. Regardless, it will be a humanitarian disaster.
Indeed, however short-lived a fascist regime is, it is far too long. It often results in people being thrown out of helicopters, torture, death squads and intimidation.
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Old 30th October 2018, 10:34 PM   #49
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I have to ask. What were the moderates doing in Brazil to allow this to happen?
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Old 31st October 2018, 01:50 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I have to ask. What were the moderates doing in Brazil to allow this to happen?

Read the articles I've posted.

The Atlantic Council scumbags are ready to help Bolsonaro "to deliver on campaign promises as Brazilians hope high."
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Old 31st October 2018, 02:30 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I have to ask. What were the moderates doing in Brazil to allow this to happen?
Overseeing a shrinking economy, double-digit inflation, a rise in violent crime, one of the biggest government corruption scandals in recorded history, having their prime candidate in jail and his replacement presenting himself as a stand-in for the incarcerated guy rather than a political force of his own.

I'm no expert on Brazil (never been there), but I suspect they also went way too fast with a number of social things like teaching kids about LGBT issues. Bolsenaro made show of that, waving some gay-friendly children's book around during a debate. In a conservative country that can cause a backlash, as people feel their values are attacked.
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Old 31st October 2018, 03:45 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Fascism (broadly defined) sucks, but it usually doesn't last more than a one-leader cycle.

You do know that Hitler's one-leader cycle lasted from '33-'45, don't you? Mussolini's from '22-'43 and Salazar '32-'68!!! Yes, they all ended eventually, but ...
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Old 31st October 2018, 06:35 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
When sanity returns to the US, it might be time for a UN-led invasion if Bolsanaro does what he says he will.
The national security vote is locked out of both the democrats and republicans and by 2021 or 2025 the next president will not be so keen as to be remembered as the next George w Bush. After all Obama had tolerated Saudi Arabia and Myanmar committing genocide because he didn't want to be remembered as the next w.

As for the UN, it is kind of a joke when it comes to interventionism and as the global order comes apart we are going to go back to blatant might makes right politics, something a few nice words on paper presented at a lavish gala will not fix. Europe is still mired in crisis thinking that discussing the metaphysics of Beethoven is going to stop salvini from plunging the euro into a death spiral, so expect no intervention there.
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Old 31st October 2018, 06:48 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
The national security vote is locked out of both the democrats and republicans and by 2021 or 2025 the next president will not be so keen as to be remembered as the next George w Bush. After all Obama had tolerated Saudi Arabia and Myanmar committing genocide because he didn't want to be remembered as the next w.

As for the UN, it is kind of a joke when it comes to interventionism and as the global order comes apart we are going to go back to blatant might makes right politics, something a few nice words on paper presented at a lavish gala will not fix. Europe is still mired in crisis thinking that discussing the metaphysics of Beethoven is going to stop salvini from plunging the euro into a death spiral, so expect no intervention there.
Intervention in Brazil would be nearly impossible and thus quite inadvisable, unless they start to invade other countries. The U S. military alone certainly is not equipped to handle such an opposed invasion at this point, and the U.S. military is by far the most capable to perform anything close to such an act. Then there is the question of stabilization afterwards... Iraq required the Surge, because the SecDef thought he could do invasion on the cheap. And that was nowhere near the scale of Brazil.
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Old 31st October 2018, 07:19 AM   #55
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It would be really hard, yes. That's why - in order to protect democracy - we must do everything possible not to allow fascists to be elected. Once they're in, they are like cockroaches.
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Old 31st October 2018, 07:30 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It would be really hard, yes. That's why - in order to protect democracy - we must do everything possible not to allow fascists to be elected. Once they're in, they are like cockroaches.
Bolsonaro was stabbed didn't stop him. There was widespread condemnation of a fascist shooting in Italy, didn't stop salvini, who is now pushing the European union to the brink (btw Brussels was far more scared of Italy than le pen, which really says something as to how grave it's situation is).

As for the global liberal order, it is crumbling at the seams right now, and as it comes crashing down under the weight of its contradictions, expect the far right to make more gains, since the left is still reeling from the collapse of the Soviet union. In short the point of no return was passed a long time ago.
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Old 31st October 2018, 07:41 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It would be really hard, yes. That's why - in order to protect democracy - we must do everything possible not to allow fascists to be elected. Once they're in, they are like cockroaches.
Invade a huge country that consists mostly of jungle to remove a now popular democratically elected leader who probably has full support from his capable military? Sounds like a great plan!

Let us know how it went.

Democracy isn't dead (yet) in Brazil. Maybe the bastard gets removed by the voters in the next elections.
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Old 31st October 2018, 07:56 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Invade a huge country that consists mostly of jungle to remove a now popular democratically elected leader who probably has full support from his capable military? Sounds like a great plan!

Let us know how it went.

Democracy isn't dead (yet) in Brazil. Maybe the bastard gets removed by the voters in the next elections.
You quote me saying it would be hard to say it would be hard. Yes, it would be hard. Like I said: That's why we can't let fascists get elected.
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Old 31st October 2018, 08:02 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You quote me saying it would be hard to say it would be hard. Yes, it would be hard. Like I said: That's why we can't let fascists get elected.
The eu still seems to think that discussing the metaphysics of Beethoven at lavish galas is enough to stop the far right.
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Old 31st October 2018, 08:06 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
The national security vote is locked out of both the democrats and republicans and by 2021 or 2025 the next president will not be so keen as to be remembered as the next George w Bush. After all Obama had tolerated Saudi Arabia and Myanmar committing genocide because he didn't want to be remembered as the next w.

As for the UN, it is kind of a joke when it comes to interventionism and as the global order comes apart we are going to go back to blatant might makes right politics, something a few nice words on paper presented at a lavish gala will not fix. Europe is still mired in crisis thinking that discussing the metaphysics of Beethoven is going to stop salvini from plunging the euro into a death spiral, so expect no intervention there.
Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
The eu still seems to think that discussing the metaphysics of Beethoven at lavish galas is enough to stop the far right.
The “metaphysics” of Beethoven? Galas? The decline of the liberal world order? Are these your new catchphrases?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 31st October 2018, 08:11 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
The “metaphysics” of Beethoven? Galas? The decline of the liberal world order? Are these your new catchphrases?
I was talking about how the systems set up after world war 2 are beginning to crumble (look at how trump is going to force the world trade organisation to a standstill and is mocking international institutions in ways that even Bush balked at), while the leadership of the European union is acting like the aristocracy of 1780s France, ignorant of how everything can come crashing down.
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Old 31st October 2018, 08:11 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Overseeing a shrinking economy, double-digit inflation, a rise in violent crime, one of the biggest government corruption scandals in recorded history, having their prime candidate in jail and his replacement presenting himself as a stand-in for the incarcerated guy rather than a political force of his own.
But apart from that...



I don't know much about this character but I heard he wants to deforest the rainforests. That's enough for me, someone needs to take him out.
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Old 31st October 2018, 08:33 AM   #63
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Just found a puzzle piece to the strong religious angle in this. His full name. It's

Jair Messias Bolsonaro

Halleluja!
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Old 31st October 2018, 09:41 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You quote me saying it would be hard to say it would be hard. Yes, it would be hard. Like I said: That's why we can't let fascists get elected.
You're saying its hard. I'm saying it's impossible.

I see the need, but not the solution.

Maybe sanctions would work in response to accelerated logging? Everybody on this planet breathes air. Maybe we finally have a topic on which we can get a kind of global consensus. it's less abstract than global warming. And less open to pseudo-scientific distortions.
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Old 31st October 2018, 09:45 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
But apart from that...



I don't know much about this character but I heard he wants to deforest the rainforests. That's enough for me, someone needs to take him out.
I think he starts in January, let's see what he actually does.
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Old 31st October 2018, 09:47 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
The eu still seems to think that discussing the metaphysics of Beethoven at lavish galas is enough to stop the far right.
They are a tad out of touch.
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Old 31st October 2018, 09:49 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Invade a huge country that consists mostly of jungle to remove a now popular democratically elected leader who probably has full support from his capable military? Sounds like a great plan!

Let us know how it went.

Democracy isn't dead (yet) in Brazil. Maybe the bastard gets removed by the voters in the next elections.
If he is half as bad as it is said, he won't need to win any more elections to stay in power. If he shores up power, especially by bringing the police and military under his personal command, he can do away with such things as elections. Or, if a less heavy hand is needed, simply arrest and murder any opposition leaders.
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Old 31st October 2018, 10:08 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If he is half as bad as it is said, he won't need to win any more elections to stay in power. If he shores up power, especially by bringing the police and military under his personal command, he can do away with such things as elections. Or, if a less heavy hand is needed, simply arrest and murder any opposition leaders.
If he's confident that he's doing a good job, he might take the chance of elections instead of the huge gamble of a coup. Autocratic leaders are very likely to overestimate their popularity (tunnel vision, groupthink, sycophants). Hell, most ordinary people believe they belong to a silent majority.

Pinochet even approved a referendum on his rule. Which he lost.

Bolsenaro has a lot of potential for going full fascist, but for now, he's a democratically elected blowhard.
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Old 31st October 2018, 10:09 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I don't know much about this character but I heard he wants to deforest the rainforests. That's enough for me, someone needs to take him out.

Yup.

One of the many many... many potential dangers of allowing an extremist right-wing nutbag to sit in the driver's seat of an entire country.

Top 3 dangers:

1) Theocratic Fascism
2) War
3) Decimation of flora and fauna for the purpose of corporate/personal gains
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Old 31st October 2018, 10:38 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
When sanity returns to the US, it might be time for a UN-led invasion if Bolsanaro does what he says he will.
As much as I dislike Bolsanario, that is a terrible idea. I am not crazy about the UN having the power to displace legally elected national governments.
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Old 31st October 2018, 10:40 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
I was talking about how the systems set up after world war 2 are beginning to crumble (look at how trump is going to force the world trade organisation to a standstill and is mocking international institutions in ways that even Bush balked at), while the leadership of the European union is acting like the aristocracy of 1780s France, ignorant of how everything can come crashing down.
You know, the kind of "We're doomed and there is nothing we can do about it" dogma you have been peddling here fo rsome time does nothing but aid the Trumps of the world.
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Old 31st October 2018, 10:46 AM   #72
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There seem to be some what I would call populist, nationalist leaders atm. Trump, Erdogan, Putin, Duterte and now this guy in Brazil. Maybe the Chinese leader fits there too. I don't know if its a trend, or just some opportunists grabbing power.

Whatever, it's worrying.
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Old 31st October 2018, 11:15 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You know, the kind of "We're doomed and there is nothing we can do about it" dogma you have been peddling here fo rsome time does nothing but aid the Trumps of the world.
I'm trying to think of a way they can be routed but honestly we passed the point of no return some time ago.
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Old 31st October 2018, 12:51 PM   #74
Childlike Empress
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The Atlantic Council scumbags are ready to help Bolsonaro "to deliver on campaign promises as Brazilians hope high."

Hahaha, the disgusting enablers deleted the tweet. Someone must have pointed out to them how it looks to people with at least some morals. Of course a screenshot was saved.

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Old 31st October 2018, 02:07 PM   #75
dann
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I don't know much about this character but I heard he wants to deforest the rainforests. That's enough for me, someone needs to take him out.

I heard of this guy in a country north of Brazil who doesn't believe in global warming:
'What me worry? Fossil fuels: Full speed ahead!'
Wanna take him out, too?!
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Old 31st October 2018, 02:44 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
I'm trying to think of a way they can be routed but honestly we passed the point of no return some time ago.
Why have we passed the point of no return? What makes the slide to rabid nationalism inevitable? Who do you think you are, Hari Seldon?
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Old 31st October 2018, 03:45 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Why have we passed the point of no return? What makes the slide to rabid nationalism inevitable? Who do you think you are, Hari Seldon?



I suspect somebody has been reading too many of those YA dystopian novels, with a good dash of angst and the kind of despair fashionable in certain intellectual circles thrown in.
And of course saying something is inevitable sort of lets you off the hook when it comes to getting off you butt and at least trying to do something about it.

You know the "resistence is futile! Prepare to be assimilated" kind of thing.
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Old 31st October 2018, 03:49 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Diablo View Post
There seem to be some what I would call populist, nationalist leaders atm. Trump, Erdogan, Putin, Duterte and now this guy in Brazil. Maybe the Chinese leader fits there too. I don't know if its a trend, or just some opportunists grabbing power.

Whatever, it's worrying.
The Chinese leader is not a populist, he is more a classic authoratrain leader who came up through the ranks of the Chinese bureaucracy, and I suspect he sits on a uneasy throne;the Politbureau can remove him at any time. A different species of authoritarian leader then the others. He never had to actually go to the polls with a chance of defeat.
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Old 31st October 2018, 04:01 PM   #79
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Only way I would support intenvention against Bosalarino, is if he became aggressive..not unknown to Fascist leaders,and attacked another country. As long as he confines his attentions to Brazil, better to just let him dig his own eventuall grave when the Brazillian people relaise they have been had.
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Old 31st October 2018, 04:15 PM   #80
Eddie Dane
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Only way I would support intenvention against Bosalarino, is if he became aggressive..not unknown to Fascist leaders,and attacked another country. As long as he confines his attentions to Brazil, better to just let him dig his own eventuall grave when the Brazillian people relaise they have been had.
It is totally unpredictable where this will go.

If he's really going to hit Brazil's complex problems with the warhammer, anything is possible. There are millions of poor shanty-town dwellers with no options. Simply repressing them could easily go seriously wrong. Those places are full of heavily armed gangs. Push them too much and you have a huge hillside Gaza overlooking every major city.

The gangs deserve everything they get, but he better throw some education, sanitation and jobs in the mix for the population. All stick and no carrot is a recipe for disaster.
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