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Old 12th February 2019, 09:01 AM   #161
Border Reiver
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Why would they? Nobody gives a damn who said what to whom and when.
That would be why uttering threats is completely not a criminal offence, or many other offences that require speech.

There can be a debate as to whether this incident was a good use of resources - to investigate complaint of possible hate speech. We can debate whether the respondent even needed to be informed that the complaint had been made, if it had been determined to be unfounded.

Now, ask yourself the following question - should warnings for "not illegal now, but could get there easily" behaviour just not be given as an infringement on freedom?
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Old 12th February 2019, 09:32 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
That would be why uttering threats is completely not a criminal offence, or many other offences that require speech.
And? No threats were made in this case.

Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
There can be a debate as to whether this incident was a good use of resources - to investigate complaint of possible hate speech. We can debate whether the respondent even needed to be informed that the complaint had been made, if it had been determined to be unfounded.
There is no debate, it's crazy that the police should monitor and moderate legal conversation, and doubly crazy when millions of actual crimes across the country are being ignored because the police allegedly don't have the resources.

Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Now, ask yourself the following question - should warnings for "not illegal now, but could get there easily" behaviour just not be given as an infringement on freedom?
I'm having trouble parsing that question. If you're asking should freedom of speech take precedence over police intervention then yes, every time. Unfortunately in the UK we have the situation where a hate incident can be defined as literally anything, by anybody, as long as the person reporting it is willing to state they believe it to be a hate incident. It's actually difficult for me to enunciate the sheer absurdity of this, it's like trying to make the case for using common sense.
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Old 13th February 2019, 06:37 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
That would be why uttering threats is completely not a criminal offence, or many other offences that require speech.

There can be a debate as to whether this incident was a good use of resources - to investigate complaint of possible hate speech. We can debate whether the respondent even needed to be informed that the complaint had been made, if it had been determined to be unfounded.

Now, ask yourself the following question - should warnings for "not illegal now, but could get there easily" behaviour just not be given as an infringement on freedom?
What it really comes down to is that, because some people don't think making transphobic or racist or Islamophobic or whatever comments should or even can be a crime, by extension they think that normal crime investigation procedures shouldn't apply to those things, either.
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Old 14th February 2019, 01:33 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
What it really comes down to is that, because some people don't think making transphobic or racist or Islamophobic or whatever comments should or even can be a crime, by extension they think that normal crime investigation procedures shouldn't apply to those things, either.
On the contrary. I believe that "normal crime investigation procedures" should be applied to so called hate speech as well.

However, it is not "normal crime investigation procedure" to search for other activities of a person that might be considered a crime if the act originally complained about does not constitute a crime.
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Old 14th February 2019, 03:16 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
On the contrary. I believe that "normal crime investigation procedures" should be applied to so called hate speech as well.

However, it is not "normal crime investigation procedure" to search for other activities of a person that might be considered a crime if the act originally complained about does not constitute a crime.
The crime being investigated when checking lots of tweets is not hate speech, it is harassment.

One rude tweet is not a crime. Lots of rude tweets directed at a particular person could be harassment.
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Old 14th February 2019, 03:20 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The crime being investigated when checking lots of tweets is not hate speech, it is harassment.

One rude tweet is not a crime. Lots of rude tweets directed at a particular person could be harassment.
That's true. The issue here is that harassment was not reported. What the cops did was say, "Oh, someone's reported a rude Tweet, let's search for whatever evidence we can gather to make a case for a hate crime to get our targets up." In the end they found none but still recorded the incident on their database. Fascist state.
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Old 14th February 2019, 04:21 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
On the contrary. I believe that "normal crime investigation procedures" should be applied to so called hate speech as well.

However, it is not "normal crime investigation procedure" to search for other activities of a person that might be considered a crime if the act originally complained about does not constitute a crime.
What makes you think checking for other similar tweets wasn't part of the process of deciding that the one initially complained about wasn't criminal?
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Old 14th February 2019, 05:36 AM   #168
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Surprising how much people are willing to give up for the illusion of security
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Old 14th February 2019, 05:39 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
On the contrary. I believe that "normal crime investigation procedures" should be applied to so called hate speech as well.

However, it is not "normal crime investigation procedure" to search for other activities of a person that might be considered a crime if the act originally complained about does not constitute a crime.
It actually is you know.

If you complain to the police about a whole raft of things one of the things they will probably ask is 'have they done this before? is it a one off?'
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Old 14th February 2019, 05:40 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Surprising how much people are willing to give up for the illusion of security
My 'right to harass' ?
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Old 14th February 2019, 07:27 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Surprising how much people are willing to give up for the illusion of security
That's not quite true. They are not willing to give up anything and they constantly demand more rights and more stringent privacy. It's only when others suffer abuse of their rights - specifically others that they disagree with - that they are suddenly in favour of fascist intervention.
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Old 15th February 2019, 12:58 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The crime being investigated when checking lots of tweets is not hate speech, it is harassment.

One rude tweet is not a crime. Lots of rude tweets directed at a particular person could be harassment.
Except that it was not harassment that was reported. It was a single tweet.

Ordinarily, you would be lucky to get a police reporting number if you reported a crime. For example, there was the time I reported theft of several thousands of dollars from a bank account. The person involved has used a "back door" method to make an unauthorized withdrawal. The cop I reported the theft to told me that he wouldn't take action even if the theft had been $100,000 (they have to prioritize). However, he gave me a report number for insurance purposes and was nice enough to contact the thief and persuade them to return the money.

I fail to see why the cops should have to go the extra mile just for a speech case.
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Old 15th February 2019, 03:26 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Except that it was not harassment that was reported. It was a single tweet.

Ordinarily, you would be lucky to get a police reporting number if you reported a crime. For example, there was the time I reported theft of several thousands of dollars from a bank account. The person involved has used a "back door" method to make an unauthorized withdrawal. The cop I reported the theft to told me that he wouldn't take action even if the theft had been $100,000 (they have to prioritize). However, he gave me a report number for insurance purposes and was nice enough to contact the thief and persuade them to return the money.

I fail to see why the cops should have to go the extra mile just for a speech case.
Whatever Australian police will or will not act upon is not relevant.
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Old 15th February 2019, 03:29 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That's true. The issue here is that harassment was not reported. What the cops did was say, "Oh, someone's reported a rude Tweet, let's search for whatever evidence we can gather to make a case for a hate crime to get our targets up." In the end they found none but still recorded the incident on their database. Fascist state.
We do not know the exact wording of the report and in any case, checking just one tweet and ignoring what could be a crime is bad practice.
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Old 15th February 2019, 03:33 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Except that it was not harassment that was reported. It was a single tweet.

Ordinarily, you would be lucky to get a police reporting number if you reported a crime. For example, there was the time I reported theft of several thousands of dollars from a bank account. The person involved has used a "back door" method to make an unauthorized withdrawal. The cop I reported the theft to told me that he wouldn't take action even if the theft had been $100,000 (they have to prioritize). However, he gave me a report number for insurance purposes and was nice enough to contact the thief and persuade them to return the money.

I fail to see why the cops should have to go the extra mile just for a speech case.
Was it just one tweet reported? Or was it potential harassment based on a tweet? We do not really know.

Regarding your bank incident, in Scotland many such transactions were written off as bad practice and/or referred back to the banks to investigate. The reason for that was the police could not cope with such complicated enquiries that often involved international organised crime. So they needed an excuse to not investigate. Terrible I know.
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Old 15th February 2019, 03:55 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Was it just one tweet reported? Or was it potential harassment based on a tweet? We do not really know.
I thought we did.
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Old 15th February 2019, 03:58 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Except that it was not harassment that was reported. It was a single tweet.

Ordinarily, you would be lucky to get a police reporting number if you reported a crime. For example, there was the time I reported theft of several thousands of dollars from a bank account. The person involved has used a "back door" method to make an unauthorized withdrawal. The cop I reported the theft to told me that he wouldn't take action even if the theft had been $100,000 (they have to prioritize). However, he gave me a report number for insurance purposes and was nice enough to contact the thief and persuade them to return the money.

I fail to see why the cops should have to go the extra mile just for a speech case.
Slightly OT here, but if the theft was from your bank account then the victim is the bank, not you. The banks try to keep this information from us and pretend that they are simply keeping 'our money' in little vaults and we are responsible for what happens to it. This is not the case. What happens when we deposit money into an account is that we loan the bank the money and enter into an agreement that they will repay it on demand. In other words, it is now their money, literally speaking. If money is then stolen from your account then the theft is from the bank, not from you, although if the bank can prove you were negligent with your security information, or complicit in the crime, their agreement to repay you the money on demand may no longer apply (and the police might start being interested in you).

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
We do not know the exact wording of the report and in any case, checking just one tweet and ignoring what could be a crime is bad practice.
Checking the tweet at all in this instance is bad practice. Maybe when the police deal with all the actual crimes that occur, or even 50% of them, we can discuss the details of what attention they should pay to non-crimes, but in the current climate it's disgraceful that the police did anything but listen to the complainant then put down the phone.
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Old 15th February 2019, 04:45 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Slightly OT here, but if the theft was from your bank account then the victim is the bank, not you. The banks try to keep this information from us and pretend that they are simply keeping 'our money' in little vaults and we are responsible for what happens to it. This is not the case. What happens when we deposit money into an account is that we loan the bank the money and enter into an agreement that they will repay it on demand. In other words, it is now their money, literally speaking. If money is then stolen from your account then the theft is from the bank, not from you, although if the bank can prove you were negligent with your security information, or complicit in the crime, their agreement to repay you the money on demand may no longer apply (and the police might start being interested in you).
I am well aware of the difference between a bank deposit and money (check out my signature).

In this case it was a business account in which the previous account holder made the unauthorized withdrawal in spite of having resigned from the account. Not only did the bank refuse to reinstate the deposit (meaning that they were not out anything), they also denied that they had any responsibility over the "back door" including letting me know that this back door still existed.
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Old 15th February 2019, 05:36 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
In this case it was a business account in which the previous account holder made the unauthorized withdrawal in spite of having resigned from the account. Not only did the bank refuse to reinstate the deposit (meaning that they were not out anything), they also denied that they had any responsibility over the "back door" including letting me know that this back door still existed.
Don't you have banking regulators in Australia? If the person you speak of was no longer authorised to operate the account, and the bank knew it, but allowed a withdrawal, then it was their negligence.
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Old 15th February 2019, 07:41 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I am well aware of the difference between a bank deposit and money (check out my signature).
Fair enough, but most people believe that a thief can steal 'your' money from the bank, a falsehood perpetrated continually by the banks and the mainstream media.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
In this case it was a business account in which the previous account holder made the unauthorized withdrawal in spite of having resigned from the account. Not only did the bank refuse to reinstate the deposit (meaning that they were not out anything), they also denied that they had any responsibility over the "back door" including letting me know that this back door still existed.
It's entirely the bank's responsibility, as you no doubt know. The bank should have refunded you and informed the police of the fraud, and the police should have investigated on that basis.
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Old 15th February 2019, 09:08 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Don't you have banking regulators in Australia? If the person you speak of was no longer authorised to operate the account, and the bank knew it, but allowed a withdrawal, then it was their negligence.
We have a banking ombudsman in Australia but as for bringing bankers to account . . . .

Originally Posted by baron View Post
Fair enough, but most people believe that a thief can steal 'your' money from the bank, a falsehood perpetrated continually by the banks and the mainstream media.
It sounds like we are due for another banking thread in the economics section.

A couple of things: bank deposits are classified as part of the "M1" money supply and if your bank account balance is reduced then your spending power is reduced by the same amount. So the notion that "a thief can steal 'your' money from the bank" is not entirely unreasonable.

Originally Posted by baron View Post
It's entirely the bank's responsibility, as you no doubt know. The bank should have refunded you and informed the police of the fraud, and the police should have investigated on that basis.
I suspect that it would be easier to get the police to stop going after soft targets such as bloggers.
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Old 15th February 2019, 11:30 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
What it really comes down to is that, because some people don't think making transphobic or racist or Islamophobic or whatever comments should or even can be a crime, by extension they think that normal crime investigation procedures shouldn't apply to those things, either.
I see that freedom of speech is not high on your list of priorities....
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Old 15th February 2019, 12:34 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Surprising how much people are willing to give up for the illusion of security
It is unsurprising however, how much people will ignore, tolerate and excuse hate against the 'other' rather than act.
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Old 15th February 2019, 12:45 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
It is unsurprising however, how much people will ignore, tolerate and excuse hate against the 'other' rather than act.
'Ignore'. 'Tolerate'. Good idea, that's an important part of what adults in a civilised society should do when presented with opinions that offend, and if they feel moved to respond, well, they should be able to do so in the full knowledge that freedom of speech extends to them too.
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Old 15th February 2019, 12:54 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
....

Checking the tweet at all in this instance is bad practice. Maybe when the police deal with all the actual crimes that occur, or even 50% of them, we can discuss the details of what attention they should pay to non-crimes, but in the current climate it's disgraceful that the police did anything but listen to the complainant then put down the phone.
I know enough about twitter to know it is easy to scan through the tweets sent. It would not take long to check if it was a one off or harassment. Then a quick phone call and that enquiry is ended, I bet, within an hour.

In this present climate of increasing hate and greater awareness of harassment, I think it is important to check complaints such as this one.
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Old 15th February 2019, 01:43 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see that freedom of speech is not high on your list of priorities....
That's a rather puerile and immature interpretation.

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Old 15th February 2019, 10:29 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
That's a rather puerile and immature interpretation.
Considering that you obviously believe that making transphobic or racist or Islamophobic or whatever comments should be a crime, the interpretation seems pretty accurate to me.
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Old 15th February 2019, 11:22 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That's not quite true. They are not willing to give up anything and they constantly demand more rights and more stringent privacy. It's only when others suffer abuse of their rights - specifically others that they disagree with - that they are suddenly in favour of fascist intervention.
Fascism is a right-wing idology. You are a right-winger, are you not?
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Old 15th February 2019, 11:26 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
That's a rather puerile and immature interpretation.
Edited by Agatha:  Please do not discuss ignore lists, either yours or anyone else's.
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Old 16th February 2019, 08:43 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Considering that you obviously believe that making transphobic or racist or Islamophobic or whatever comments should be a crime, the interpretation seems pretty accurate to me.
Freedom of speech doesn't mean the freedom to behave like a twat, especially if it infringes on the safety or rights of others.

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Old 16th February 2019, 09:47 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Fascism is a right-wing idology.
Why would you make such a lunatic statement?

Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
You are a right-winger, are you not?
I see your suspension taught you nothing.
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Old 16th February 2019, 12:13 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Considering that you obviously believe that making transphobic or racist or Islamophobic or whatever comments should be a crime, the interpretation seems pretty accurate to me.
Ah, "obviously" , one of Pratchett's 'wallpaper words'.
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Old 16th February 2019, 12:14 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
'Ignore'. 'Tolerate'. Good idea, that's an important part of what adults in a civilised society should do when presented with opinions that offend, and if they feel moved to respond, well, they should be able to do so in the full knowledge that freedom of speech extends to them too.
I understand how defensive USAians get about their perceived "free speech" but other countries understand that words can lead to other actions.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 16th February 2019, 12:32 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
I understand how defensive USAians get about their perceived "free speech" but other countries understand that words can lead to other actions.
That's a very nebulous statement.
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Old 16th February 2019, 01:24 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Why would you make such a lunatic statement?
Because it's the almost universally accepted understanding? For example:

" Opposed to liberalism, Marxism and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[6][7][8][9][10][11]"


That you might use the word differently doesn't mean a thing.
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Old 16th February 2019, 01:31 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Because it's the almost universally accepted understanding? For example:

" Opposed to liberalism, Marxism and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[6][7][8][9][10][11]"


That you might use the word differently doesn't mean a thing.
I'm unconcerned how some people apply it, especially people who equate the far left with liberalism (that's hilarious in itself), I'm talking about what the word means and how it is defined.
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Old 16th February 2019, 09:13 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Freedom of speech doesn't mean the freedom to behave like a twat, especially if it infringes on the safety or rights of others.
I struck out the remainder of that sentence. It doesn't change the fact that you believe that mere speech should be prosecuted if it is deemed "disagreeable" regardless of whether or not harm results.
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Old 17th February 2019, 01:11 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I'm unconcerned how some people apply it, especially people who equate the far left with liberalism (that's hilarious in itself), I'm talking about what the word means and how it is defined.
I gave you a definition. Perhaps you should offer one of your own?
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Old 17th February 2019, 03:14 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I struck out the remainder of that sentence. It doesn't change the fact that you believe that mere speech should be prosecuted if it is deemed "disagreeable" regardless of whether or not harm results.
Words can cause harm. That this seems to escape some people never ceases to amaze me.
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Old 17th February 2019, 03:24 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I gave you a definition. Perhaps you should offer one of your own?
No you didn't, you linked to nonsense speculation on Wiki, an organisation of leftist contributors and editors. If you want a definition, try a dictionary. I've no need to look it up because I know what you will find; the vast majority of definitions making no stipulation on political leanings whatsoever and the few that do, specifying it as one option amongst many.
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