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Old 19th February 2019, 01:08 AM   #241
Baylor
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Freedom of speech doesn't mean the freedom to behave like a twat, especially if it infringes on the safety or rights of others.
Arresting someone for "hate speech" separates a parent from his children (assuming Europeans still breed). You're willing to separate a child from her parent because the parent hurt someone's feelings?
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Old 19th February 2019, 01:38 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
There is no mention of harassment in that link.

The right to free speech does not and cannot infringe on anybody else's rights by definition. Contrary to ignorant opinion, in the UK there is no right not to be offended. If you think otherwise please illustrate with an example and state precisely what human right is being infringed (here is a list for easy selection).

I suggest you read the summary of the court judgment linked in the second post.
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Old 19th February 2019, 01:53 AM   #243
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Alison Chabloz has been convicted in the UK on the basis of a song she performed mocking the holocaust. What happened to the British tradition of biting satire from performers such as Monty Python and magazines such as Punch ?
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12299
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Old 19th February 2019, 02:03 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
Alison Chabloz has been convicted in the UK on the basis of a song she performed mocking the holocaust. What happened to the British tradition of biting satire from performers such as Monty Python and magazines such as Punch ?
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12299
I don't understand what you're getting at here. Are you suggesting her songs were satirical? She might claim that as a (pathetic, imo) defence, but I can't see any satire in suggesting that the Holocaust was "a bunch of lies" and referring to Auschwitz as a "theme park".

Meanwhile Chabloz described herself as a 'Holocaust revisionist'.
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Old 19th February 2019, 02:14 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
Alison Chabloz has been convicted in the UK on the basis of a song she performed mocking the holocaust. What happened to the British tradition of biting satire from performers such as Monty Python and magazines such as Punch ?
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12299
Chabloz claiming her anti-semitism was "satire" doesn't make it so.
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Old 19th February 2019, 02:20 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
Alison Chabloz has been convicted in the UK on the basis of a song she performed mocking the holocaust.
Correction: she was convicted as a holocaust denier. The mere denial of the holocaust has now been ruled a crime by the British courts.

Quote:
According to the Campaign Against Antisemitism organization, the decision sets a precedent that Holocaust denial is ‘grossly offensive’ and therefore illegal.
https://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Landm...-denial-580589

Could this have legal repercussions for ISF which has a holocaust denial thread?
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Last edited by psionl0; 19th February 2019 at 02:22 AM.
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Old 19th February 2019, 02:55 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post

Could this have legal repercussions for ISF which has a holocaust denial thread?
From what I can tell, all the UK members toe the line. You can just smell the fear in their comments. They're afraid of getting a knock on the door and being separated from their children (assuming they have any) just for expressing the wrong opinion. I wouldn't want to live like that.
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Old 19th February 2019, 03:13 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I suggest you read the summary of the court judgment linked in the second post.
I read it at the time. Courts can and do make incorrect decisions. This was an example. Unless you believe that criminalisation of telling the truth about Islam is in line with the concept of freedom of expression you already know this. Can I refer you now back to my original question.
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Old 19th February 2019, 03:17 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
No, it's me disagreeing with this again, because as I've explained, the notion of 'consequences' when talking of freedom of speech clearly relates to those resulting from state intervention. Consequences in more general terminology can result from literally anything you do, from saying hello to threatening murder to scratching your arse.
The point the quote is trying to make is that a person cannot claim freedom of speech as protection from any and all consequences resulting from what has been said.
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Old 19th February 2019, 03:25 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Fair enough, but most people believe that a thief can steal 'your' money from the bank, a falsehood perpetrated continually by the banks and the mainstream media.



It's entirely the bank's responsibility, as you no doubt know. The bank should have refunded you and informed the police of the fraud, and the police should have investigated on that basis.
Slightly off topic, but Mitchell and Webb did a good sketch on this subject on their radio show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E
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Old 19th February 2019, 03:25 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
There is no mention of harassment in that link.

The right to free speech does not and cannot infringe on anybody else's rights by definition. Contrary to ignorant opinion, in the UK there is no right not to be offended. If you think otherwise please illustrate with an example and state precisely what human right is being infringed (here is a list for easy selection).
That lists where freedom of speech is limited to protect other's rights;

"Although you have freedom of expression, you also have a duty to behave responsibly and to respect other people’s rights."

and

"protect health or morals
protect the rights and reputations of other people"

and

"An authority may be allowed to restrict your freedom of expression if, for example, you express views that encourage racial or religious hatred."

There are laws, such as the Telecoms Act, where words alone can be illegal because they are grossly offensive. There was an example of a you tube video that had a dog and Hitler salutes and a voice over that resulted in a conviction.

So, there is a right not to be offended, but it is reserved for something that is grossly offensive.
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Old 19th February 2019, 04:30 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That lists where freedom of speech is limited to protect other's rights;

"Although you have freedom of expression, you also have a duty to behave responsibly and to respect other people’s rights."

and

"protect health or morals
protect the rights and reputations of other people"

and

"An authority may be allowed to restrict your freedom of expression if, for example, you express views that encourage racial or religious hatred."
Yes, as I've said, these things do not legally fall under free speech.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There are laws, such as the Telecoms Act, where words alone can be illegal because they are grossly offensive. There was an example of a you tube video that had a dog and Hitler salutes and a voice over that resulted in a conviction.

So, there is a right not to be offended, but it is reserved for something that is grossly offensive.
It's actually reserved for offence under hate crime law, so targeting people or groups because of their religion, ethnicity, orientation, etc. And sometimes, yes, it is misused and the wrong verdicts are handed down, just like the wrong verdicts are handed down in other eventualities.
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Old 19th February 2019, 06:12 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
From what I can tell, all the UK members toe the line. You can just smell the fear in their comments. They're afraid of getting a knock on the door and being separated from their children (assuming they have any) just for expressing the wrong opinion. I wouldn't want to live like that.
Your deranged fantasies are your own problem.
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Old 21st February 2019, 10:02 PM   #254
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It is a right to stoke hatred against a group. No one has right to not be hated.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 03:10 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Your deranged fantasies are your own problem.
It is a spectacularly deranged claim.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 03:15 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
The right to free speech does not and cannot infringe on anybody else's rights by definition.
The link you provide below contradicts your claim. It states "Although you have freedom of expression, you also have a duty to behave responsibly and to respect other people’s rights."

Quote:
Contrary to ignorant opinion, in the UK there is no right not to be offended. If you think otherwise please illustrate with an example and state precisely what human right is being infringed (here is a list for easy selection).
I just showed how that is wrong. I gave the Telecoms Act, which gives us the right not to be grossly offended and a specific incident as examples.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 03:40 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The link you provide below contradicts your claim. It states "Although you have freedom of expression, you also have a duty to behave responsibly and to respect other people’s rights."
Which is why I asked for an example of the rights that can be infringed by freedom of speech, in your view. Which ones are they?

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I just showed how that is wrong. I gave the Telecoms Act, which gives us the right not to be grossly offended and a specific incident as examples.
You know as well as I do that those two words don't accurately represent what the law is. Such prosecutions are rare and must involve other aspects such as threat, harassment or other malicious elements. This explains it more fully (and bear in mind this is the Telecoms act, not an overarching piece of legislation that covers all speech).
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Old 22nd February 2019, 05:49 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The link you provide below contradicts your claim. It states "Although you have freedom of expression, you also have a duty to behave responsibly and to respect other people’s rights."



I just showed how that is wrong. I gave the Telecoms Act, which gives us the right not to be grossly offended and a specific incident as examples.
If wikipedia was involved in any of that then it's inadmissible. They're a bunch of commies
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Old 22nd February 2019, 06:45 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Which is why I asked for an example of the rights that can be infringed by freedom of speech, in your view. Which ones are they?

You know as well as I do that those two words don't accurately represent what the law is. Such prosecutions are rare and must involve other aspects such as threat, harassment or other malicious elements. This explains it more fully (and bear in mind this is the Telecoms act, not an overarching piece of legislation that covers all speech).
The Telecoms Act is rarely used. Far more common is Breach of the Peace and S38 CJ&L(S)A 2010, which makes threatening, abusive, offensive behaviour likely to cause fear or alarm illegal.

Article 3 of Human Rights legislation includes the right to be free of degrading treatment "...treatment that is extremely humiliating and undignified.... based on the principle of dignity".

By making it illegal to abuse, threaten and be offensive towards me, my right to be free of being degraded and humiliated and to have my dignity preserved, is protected.
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