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Tags India-Pakistan relations

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Old 27th February 2019, 09:14 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The pilot's situation doesn't tell us anything about that.

And now you're just equivocating between the Indian airstrikes yesterday, and the shoot-down today. I'm inclined to view the former as an actual escalation, but not the latter. And even then, I'm not so sure about the former.

Do you have something other than the news report about the pilot, that argues in favor of this being not just an "escalation", but a serious departure from the status quo?
Only the experience of living on the same side of the planet, and thus seeing more news and having more general knowledge of the region than is commonly broadcast in, say, America.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
After all, Pakistan has been sending paramilitary troops into India for years. Is it really an "escalation" if India bombs one of their training camps or staging grounds from time to time?

And given that Pakistan has been sending paramilitary troops into India for years, is it really correct to say the war in Kashmir has been "cold"? Troops were fighting, bullets were flying, and people were dying long before yesterday's incident.
The militants aren't from the Pakistani military. They're independent Kashmiri terrorist groups. India has been blaming the Pakistani government for them for years, but they're blaming Pakistan for not getting rid of them, not for sending them. And furthermore, the terrorists have been reasonably quiet in the last ten years or so, until mid-February, when a militant Kashmiri suicide-bombed a convoy belonging to the Indian paramilitary forces.

India then violated Pakistani airspace to bomb a terrorist camp. It would be like if Russia sent warplanes into American airspace to bomb an antifa rally.

By the way, do you know who else once violated Pakistani airspace to kill terrorists? America.
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Old 28th February 2019, 05:37 AM   #82
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The current situation has been willfully escalated by the current Indian government and their captive media. While it has been portrayed as a retaliation against the attack on the Reserve Police Force convoy in Kashmir, there has been no evidence produced that Pakistan was responsible for this particular attack. In fact there are lots of questions in India being raised about the nature of the convoy. 70 locally sourced dilapidated buses with no armor or fire support all travelling in a group along a risky road. The person who carried out the attack was an Indian citizen. The resulting casualities of that terror attack is currently being seen as a administrative incompetence on the part of the BJP government. While this might actually be unfair, it is merely a reaction to the same rhetoric used by the BJP against the cCongress lead government during their tenure in opposition.
This happened once before when the Indian government was in the hands of the same party. Only in that case, the war was intended to benefit both governments, only problem was that Nawaz Sharif miscalculated about how subservient the Pak istan army chief Muzzarraf would be to him. Modi's favourite Pakistani is no longer in power there. Imran Khan seems a little more sensible.
One good thing is that a lot of common people in both countries are not falling for the current rhetoric and have denounced the BJP's attempts to garner political mileage from the attack and the aftermath. Apart from our version of the deplorables the larger population is calling for restraint and good sense.
The Pakistan government has just agreed to release the captured pilot as an overture of peace. However the captive media In India is already framing this as a victory of Modi and claiming that his 56 inch chest and angry eyes (yes these are actual metaphors used) successfully intimidated the Pakistanis.
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Old 28th February 2019, 08:11 AM   #83
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Pakistan to release Indian pilot.

Quote:
CNN - Pakistan said Thursday it would release an Indian pilot who was shot down over Kashmir, in an attempt to defuse the gravest crisis in the disputed border region in years.

Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan announced that the pilot, whose jet was downed during a dogfight between Pakistani and Indian warplanes on Wednesday, would be released Friday as a "gesture for peace."
CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/28/india...ntl/index.html
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Old 28th February 2019, 08:18 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Pakistan to release Indian pilot.







CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/28/india...ntl/index.html
This seems like a major de-escalation.
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Old 28th February 2019, 08:20 AM   #85
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Oops, does that mean I should stop digging for that bunker now?
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Old 28th February 2019, 08:37 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oops, does that mean I should stop digging for that bunker now?
Don't ask me. I don't even live in that hemisphere, so what do I know?
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Old 28th February 2019, 08:46 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oops, does that mean I should stop digging for that bunker now?
No, keep digging. You will know better on Friday if you can stop.
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Old 28th February 2019, 09:00 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Only the experience of living on the same side of the planet, and thus seeing more news and having more general knowledge of the region than is commonly broadcast in, say, America.
I'm not going to give you special credit for living in Australia, arth. If you have additional information that might change our understanding of this incident, present it.

And while I don't recognize Appeal to Geography as a valid argument, if you mean it seriously then you should probably reconsider your standing to speak about anything that goes on in America. Especially when talking to someone who actually lives on the same continent.
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Old 28th February 2019, 09:05 AM   #89
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It wasn't an appeal to geography it was a thinly veiled "Stupid Americans" jab.
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Old 28th February 2019, 09:18 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It wasn't an appeal to geography it was a thinly veiled "Stupid Americans" jab.
Eh. Everybody is some kind of bigot. I just want to try having a discussion.
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Old 28th February 2019, 10:05 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Only the experience of living on the same side of the planet, and thus seeing more news and having more general knowledge of the region than is commonly broadcast in, say, America.

The militants aren't from the Pakistani military. They're independent Kashmiri terrorist groups. India has been blaming the Pakistani government for them for years, but they're blaming Pakistan for not getting rid of them, not for sending them. And furthermore, the terrorists have been reasonably quiet in the last ten years or so, until mid-February, when a militant Kashmiri suicide-bombed a convoy belonging to the Indian paramilitary forces.

India then violated Pakistani airspace to bomb a terrorist camp. It would be like if Russia sent warplanes into American airspace to bomb an antifa rally.

By the way, do you know who else once violated Pakistani airspace to kill terrorists? America.
Please we violate way more countries airspace to do that, and do so all the time in Pakistan, not just once. We just use unmanned drones so we don't really care if they get shot down.
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Old 28th February 2019, 10:38 AM   #92
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However, this particular air strike was purely for the BJP to score political brownie points in the election this year. The government is in crisis and rocked by scandal. This is being inflamed by a captive media industry.

A leading rightwing news anchor has tweeted that "bowing to pressure Pakistan has decided to release captured the Indian pilot." This despite the announcement by their Prime Minister that he is being released as an overture for peace.
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Old 28th February 2019, 11:01 AM   #93
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Quote:
The militants aren't from the Pakistani military. They're independent Kashmiri terrorist groups. India has been blaming the Pakistani government for them for years, but they're blaming Pakistan for not getting rid of them, not for sending them.
^^This. The border on their side is home to terrorist camps and relatively porous. There are elements in the army that tend to look away.

Quote:
And furthermore, the terrorists have been reasonably quiet in the last ten years or so, until mid-February, when a militant Kashmiri suicide-bombed a convoy belonging to the Indian paramilitary forces.
The resurgence began a few months after the current government took office and enforced a brutal crackdown on the people of Kashmir in the name of anti-terrorist action.
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Old 28th February 2019, 12:09 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
The current situation has been willfully escalated by the current Indian government and their captive media. While it has been portrayed as a retaliation against the attack on the Reserve Police Force convoy in Kashmir, there has been no evidence produced that Pakistan was responsible for this particular attack. In fact there are lots of questions in India being raised about the nature of the convoy. 70 locally sourced dilapidated buses with no armor or fire support all travelling in a group along a risky road. The person who carried out the attack was an Indian citizen. The resulting casualities of that terror attack is currently being seen as a administrative incompetence on the part of the BJP government. While this might actually be unfair, it is merely a reaction to the same rhetoric used by the BJP against the cCongress lead government during their tenure in opposition.
This happened once before when the Indian government was in the hands of the same party. Only in that case, the war was intended to benefit both governments, only problem was that Nawaz Sharif miscalculated about how subservient the Pak istan army chief Muzzarraf would be to him. Modi's favourite Pakistani is no longer in power there. Imran Khan seems a little more sensible.
One good thing is that a lot of common people in both countries are not falling for the current rhetoric and have denounced the BJP's attempts to garner political mileage from the attack and the aftermath. Apart from our version of the deplorables the larger population is calling for restraint and good sense.
The Pakistan government has just agreed to release the captured pilot as an overture of peace. However the captive media In India is already framing this as a victory of Modi and claiming that his 56 inch chest and angry eyes (yes these are actual metaphors used) successfully intimidated the Pakistanis.
If Modi is going to play these games, he had better upgrade his Military. Mig 21's won't cut it if they are up against modern aircraft.
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Old 28th February 2019, 12:11 PM   #95
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I suspect somebody is supporting India since they are putting those evil Muslims in their place.
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Old 28th February 2019, 12:13 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
India is 14% Muslim. They didn't "go to India", they are native-born Indians.
Normally I would comment that this was sparked my Muslim guerrillas operating from Pakistan into India but given Baron's hatred and ignorance of thngs Muslim I would say yeah, he is unaware that 14% of India native population is Muslim.
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Old 28th February 2019, 12:17 PM   #97
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In a ideal world, simply have the UN do the referendum in Kashmir that was promised in 1947 but never happened and let the Kashmiris decide their own fate, but that ain't gonna happen.
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Old 28th February 2019, 12:48 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If Modi is going to play these games, he had better upgrade his Military. Mig 21's won't cut it if they are up against modern aircraft.
First, the MiG-21 is a cromulent aircraft. By all accounts its easy to learn and operate, and relatively cheap to maintain. It's also been the subject of several upgrade packages from various firms. Current planes have modern avionics. Obviously the airframes are aging, but it's still got some service life left.

Besides, in addition to its 113 111 MiG-21s, India has 66 MiG-29s and 242 Su-30s (with more on order). As militaries go, it's pretty much up to date.

The US is pretty unique among large military establishments, in how much effort it puts into putting all of its units on the same technological footing, equipment-wise.

Russia, for example, seems to maintain a two-tiered system. They invest what they can into equipping a few front-line units with the latest and greatest gear. Their follow-on and reserve forces are have older equipment. India is a developing nation. Decade over decade, they're trying to get good arms deals, develop indigenous manufacturing, and avoid diplomatic constraints. It makes sense that they'd have a range of equipment. It's not surprising that a plane like the MiG-21 - cheap, easy to operate, easy to upgrade - would find a long and productive life in their air force.

And that's just India in a vacuum. If we compare to Pakistan...

... Well, see for yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakist...Force#Aircraft

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...itary_aircraft

The only type where Pakistan has a (slim) numerical advantage is... MiG-21s.

To go up against India's 66 modern MiG-29s and 242 modern Su-30s, Pakistan has a grand total of 45 F-16s and 100 JF-17s.

Last edited by theprestige; 28th February 2019 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 28th February 2019, 02:18 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Besides, in addition to its 113 111 MiG-21s, India has 66 MiG-29s and 242 Su-30s (with more on order). As militaries go, it's pretty much up to date.
Excellent use of the strike command.
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Old 28th February 2019, 02:27 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If Modi is going to play these games, he had better upgrade his Military. Mig 21's won't cut it if they are up against modern aircraft.
India has plenty of 'modern' aircraft. SU-30, Mig-29, Mirage 2000 and their own design HAL Tejas which is replacing the Mig 21.
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Old 28th February 2019, 02:41 PM   #101
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I am sorry...are we discussing war strategy. The average Indian doesn't want it...the average Pakistani does not want it...right now this is political grandstanding by the BJP.
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Old 28th February 2019, 02:53 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
I am sorry...are we discussing war strategy.
I don't know. Are we?

I don't think we're discussing war strategy. Comparative military readiness, really. Relevant to a discussion about a hypothetical war, but we haven't gotten that far yet.

Quote:
The average Indian doesn't want it...the average Pakistani does not want it...
Well, it looks like they're not going to get it. So that's good, anyway.

Quote:
right now this is political grandstanding by the BJP.
That was my suspicion all along.
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Old 28th February 2019, 05:29 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This seems like a major de-escalation.
Yes, it's a very good step in the right direction.
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Old 28th February 2019, 05:39 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not going to give you special credit for living in Australia, arth. If you have additional information that might change our understanding of this incident, present it.

And while I don't recognize Appeal to Geography as a valid argument, if you mean it seriously then you should probably reconsider your standing to speak about anything that goes on in America. Especially when talking to someone who actually lives on the same continent.
I was merely acknowledging the fact that everyone gets more local news than they do news from far away. That's universal, though with most news today distributed via the Internet, it's not as significant as it used to be. Here in Australia, we receive a lot of news from Asia. In the United States, I would expect that you would receive a lot of news from South America that we wouldn't be exposed to, and thus would know more about the background of that region than I do.

I've been reading about India and Pakistan in the news pretty much for all of my life. Hence, I have some background knowledge that might not be known by someone who hasn't. Of course, if you do already know what I know, that's perfectly fine, but you appeared to me to think that the Kashmiri militants were part of the Pakistani military and therefore sanctioned and directed by the Pakistani government, so I felt the need to correct that misapprehension. If that wasn't what you were saying, then I apologise for misreading you.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It wasn't an appeal to geography it was a thinly veiled "Stupid Americans" jab.
My initial response to this would have generated a mod warning. Suffice to say that I hope that I have clarified my statement above.
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Old 28th February 2019, 06:44 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
I am sorry...are we discussing war strategy. The average Indian doesn't want it...the average Pakistani does not want it...right now this is political grandstanding by the BJP.
The average person almost never wants war...but war happens just the same.
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Old 1st March 2019, 08:20 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The average person almost never wants war...but war happens just the same.
Or it doesn't happen, as the case may be.

What about this case? Are you still concerned that this business will get out of control, and we'll all be lucky to live through it?
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Old 1st March 2019, 08:43 AM   #107
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Popcorn at the ready: Possible Bollywood movie to be made about the Indian pilot:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e_iOSApp_Other
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Old 1st March 2019, 08:55 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Popcorn at the ready: Possible Bollywood movie to be made about the Indian pilot:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e_iOSApp_Other
This could get very serious very fast.
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Old 1st March 2019, 09:01 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This could get very serious very fast.
A major escalation, no less.
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Old 1st March 2019, 09:11 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
A major escalation, no less.
This is not a good thing.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 10:50 PM   #111
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Well seems like all the war hysteria that the BJP tried to rake up at home hasn't worked as planned. Now we are expecting a manufactured internal crisis of major proportions in the coming months.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 11:00 PM   #112
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India-Pakistan ceasefire collapses, with civilians and soldiers killed in fresh fighting

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India and Pakistan have violated a ceasefire along the Line of Control in the disputed region of Kashmir, killing at least six civilians and two Pakistani soldiers.

But in a sign that tensions between the nuclear-armed rivals could soon ease, a Pakistani Cabinet minister said a key train service between the countries would resume on Monday.

Tensions have been running high since Indian aircraft crossed into Pakistan on Tuesday, carrying out what India called a pre-emptive strike against militants blamed for a February 14 suicide bombing in Indian-controlled Kashmir that killed 40 Indian troops.

Pakistan retaliated, shooting down a fighter jet on Wednesday and detaining its pilot, who was returned to India on Friday in a peace gesture.

Fighting resumed overnight Friday.

Pakistan's military said two of its soldiers were killed in an exchange of fire with Indian forces near the Line of Control that divides Kashmir.

It marked the first fatalities for Pakistani troops since Wednesday.

Indian police, meanwhile, said two siblings and their mother were killed in Indian-controlled Kashmir after a shell fired by Pakistani soldiers hit their home in the Poonch region near the Line of Control. The children's father was critically wounded.

In Pakistan-controlled Kashmir, Government official Umar Azam said Indian troops with heavy weapons "indiscriminately targeted border villagers" along the Line of Control, killing a boy and wounding three other people. He said several homes were destroyed by Indian shelling.

Following a lull lasting a few hours, shelling and firing of small arms resumed on Saturday.
It's not good.
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Old 6th March 2019, 12:34 PM   #113
dudalb
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Popcorn at the ready: Possible Bollywood movie to be made about the Indian pilot:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e_iOSApp_Other
I presume he brakes out in song at some point?
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Old 6th March 2019, 12:39 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Nope. but it might just be a "Normal" border clash between India and Pakistan. These happen quite a bit.
Thing is they can get started so easily. Just one soldier with an itchy trigger fingers can get is started. Or a new Second Looey who gets his patrol lost and strays over the border.

There has been no escalastion since Friday so this does seem to be just a normal SOP Border Incident.
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Old 6th March 2019, 01:46 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I presume he brakes out in song at some point?
And the villagers and capturing forces have a dance.
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:52 PM   #116
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It is interesting that Bollywood movies have never gotten the kind of cult following in the West that Chinese and Japanese films have gotten.
(Huge fan of Samurai films here)
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Old 6th March 2019, 03:00 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It is interesting that Bollywood movies have never gotten the kind of cult following in the West that Chinese and Japanese films have gotten.
(Huge fan of Samurai films here)
"Never." These things take time to impinge on mainstream awareness. I bet there are already cult followings for Bollywood movies in the US.
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Old 6th March 2019, 03:24 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Never." These things take time to impinge on mainstream awareness. I bet there are already cult followings for Bollywood movies in the US.
Not really. Most US fans of Bollywood are ..surprise..immigrants from India . You just don't see the kind of following that Japanese movies, (Samaurai, Anime, Kaiju) have found among the Gaijan,or Chinese action movies have among the Foreign Devils.
I actually think the at times inexplicable breaking into song and dance on the oddest moments are a barrier.
Westerners will accept this fine in a out and out, declared musical,but for it to happen in a otherwise serious drama, is, for western tastes, off putting.
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Old 6th March 2019, 04:45 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Nope. but it might just be a "Normal" border clash between India and Pakistan. These happen quite a bit.
Thing is they can get started so easily. Just one soldier with an itchy trigger fingers can get is started. Or a new Second Looey who gets his patrol lost and strays over the border.

There has been no escalastion since Friday so this does seem to be just a normal SOP Border Incident.
They used to happen quite a bit, yes. But as I said, it's been relatively quiet recently.

But yes, I haven't seen any new reports of violence since that one, so maybe they're managing to keep a lid on it. That would be nice.
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Old 6th March 2019, 04:49 PM   #120
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What's the difference between an incident happening at a lower rate than previously, and a dangerous escalation?
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