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Old 1st December 2021, 01:18 PM   #1
plague311
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Oxford High School, Michigan, school shooting.

Mod InfoThe first ten posts in this thread have been moved from the "today's mass shooting" thread, as they contain information more suited to this thread.
Posted By:Agatha







Source here. Highlights:

Quote:
Crumbley is expected to be arraigned Wednesday afternoon.

Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald said more charges could be coming as the investigation progresses.

She said it appears the shooting was not impulsive but did not go into detail.

"There is a mountain of digital evidence," she said. "We are confident it was premeditated."

McDonald added that she is considering charges against Crumbley's parents.
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Last edited by Agatha; 4th December 2021 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 1st December 2021, 01:19 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And news stories today contradicted the twelve shot story I read yesterday, so maybe he did switch magazines after all.
When they caught him the gun still had 7 bullets in it. I would assume he switched mags.
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Old 1st December 2021, 01:41 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
When they caught him the gun still had 7 bullets in it. I would assume he switched mags.
Sheriff updated that a few minutes ago. He shot at least 30 shots from two magazines. He had seven unspent rounds in his pocket, and the police found another magazine at the school that had 11 unspent rounds.

Yesterday, it was said there were still live rounds loaded in the gun, but the Sheriff didn't mention it today, that I caught. (I was listening live, but might have missed a detail or two.)
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Old 1st December 2021, 01:49 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Sheriff updated that a few minutes ago. He shot at least 30 shots from two magazines. He had seven unspent rounds in his pocket, and the police found another magazine at the school that had 11 unspent rounds.

Yesterday, it was said there were still live rounds loaded in the gun, but the Sheriff didn't mention it today, that I caught. (I was listening live, but might have missed a detail or two.)
So he must have had more than 2 magazines on him at least.
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Old 1st December 2021, 01:52 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
So he must have had more than 2 magazines on him at least.
They said three, which I believe matched the number of magazines purchased on Black Friday by dad.
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Old 1st December 2021, 01:59 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
They said three, which I believe matched the number of magazines purchased on Black Friday by dad.
3 extra plus the one that came with it?

If they found one that he didn't use, then the one in the gun had 7 bullets in it, and then he fired 30...is my math right? Is that 4?
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Old 1st December 2021, 03:08 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
3 extra plus the one that came with it?

If they found one that he didn't use, then the one in the gun had 7 bullets in it, and then he fired 30...is my math right? Is that 4?
I think I must have gotten some detail wrong, or the sheriff misspoke, because what I heard today is that he fired from two magazines, then they found a third magazine that had 11 bullets, plus he had seven bullets in his pocket. The sheriff said he had 18 bullets left, total, which would imply his gun was empty. That contradicted what they said yesterday, so I'm not quite sure of the exact numbers.


Of the things that I find at least somewhat relevant, I can basically say, from listening to the Sheriff today, that he had multiple magazines (either three or four), that he fired from at least 30 shots (sheriff said 30 shell casings recovered from the scene. I think it's a fifteen round magazine), from at least two, or maybe three, magazines.

In other words, he fired a whole bunch of bullets and he at least had the potential to fire more.

He was charged as an adult, so he's going away for a long time, probably life, although they might take pity for his youth, maybe life with parole instead of life without parole. I don't know that sort of detail. Meanwhile, I would expect charges against at least dad, and the prosecutor said they were considering charges against both parents, "swiftly". I'm guessing tomorrow.
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Old 1st December 2021, 03:15 PM   #8
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A double stack 9mm magazine can hold a lot of bullets.
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Old 1st December 2021, 04:36 PM   #9
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It was just reported that another of the kids has died. So 4 killed now.

I'm thinking this needs it's own thread.
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Old 1st December 2021, 04:46 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The school shooting today happened in my neck of the woods. The shooter's father bought the gun four days ago, although there are rumors that several guns were removed from the house when a search warrant was executed.
My Grandparents moved out to that area from Detroit in the early 70's. One of my younger aunts graduated from Oxford, although she was at the previous building and not the current one.

One of the reasons for moving out there was because it was safer. It also was not considered the suburbs at that time.

Funny how city problems don't stay in the cities.
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Old 1st December 2021, 04:46 PM   #11
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Oxford High School, Michigan, school shooting.

This is a thread for discussing the school shooting yesterday at Oxford High School in Oxford, Michigan. Oxford is a far suburb of Detroit. i.e. it is just at the fringe of suburbia, on the edge of rural.

Four dead. Seven wounded. One shooter.

We have been talking about it in the "Today's Mass Shooting" thread, so I won't rehash everything right away, but it was suggested to start its own thread, so I did.
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Old 1st December 2021, 04:47 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
It was just reported that another of the kids has died. So 4 killed now.

I'm thinking this needs it's own thread.
First post of a new thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post13669458
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Old 1st December 2021, 05:08 PM   #13
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Take time to honour the brave schoolchildren who continue to lay down their lives in defence of the 2nd Amendment.
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Old 1st December 2021, 05:26 PM   #14
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I wonder how long it will be before someone over there blames computer games?
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Old 1st December 2021, 05:29 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
... I would expect charges against at least dad, and the prosecutor said they were considering charges against both parents, "swiftly". I'm guessing tomorrow.
That should surely make future juvenile shooters think twice before killing anyone.. What kid goes ahead with criminal activity, knowing mom and dad will get in trouble.?
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Old 1st December 2021, 05:42 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
That should surely make future juvenile shooters think twice before killing anyone.. What kid goes ahead with criminal activity, knowing mom and dad will get in trouble.?
That is a good point; but on the other hand, one could argue the intent isn't so much to deter future shooters, but rather the parents of potential future shooters. It's been reported - with a lot of caveats about a lack of solid verification - that the shooter in this incident used a weapon his father had just purchased online. It's also been reported that the kid had posted some kind of photos showing off this particular weapon on social media.

If that's all true, and it turns out that after buying the gun the parents never bothered to take responsible steps to make sure it was secure and couldn't be accessed by people who shouldn't be accessing it (like, you know, kids), that kind of decision-making definitely needs to be deterred.
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Old 1st December 2021, 05:47 PM   #17
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( Yeah, I really do get it.. )
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Old 1st December 2021, 05:52 PM   #18
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Instead of using their legislative powers to require adults to securely store guns, it seems some Michigan lawmakers want to arm and train teachers so they can shoot their students.

https://eu.detroitnews.com/story/new...es/8820389002/
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Old 1st December 2021, 05:54 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Instead of using their legislative powers to require adults to securely store guns, it seems some Michigan lawmakers want to arm and train teachers so they can shoot their students.

https://eu.detroitnews.com/story/new...es/8820389002/
Why not both?
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Old 1st December 2021, 06:12 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Why not both?
Because there is resistance by the American gun-cult to laws that require parents to securely store weapons because this "tramples freedoms"; and there is also resistance to measures to keep guns away from children in general, largely owing to a curious, widespread dogmatic belief that exposure to guns and gun culture magically makes children good and law-abiding people.
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Old 1st December 2021, 06:44 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Instead of using their legislative powers to require adults to securely store guns, it seems some Michigan lawmakers want to arm and train teachers so they can shoot their students.

https://eu.detroitnews.com/story/new...es/8820389002/
Surely it will lower insurance premiums if teachers are armed. And what could go wrong?
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Old 1st December 2021, 06:49 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
That should surely make future juvenile shooters think twice before killing anyone.. What kid goes ahead with criminal activity, knowing mom and dad will get in trouble.?
Color me cynical, but I don't think junior is too awfully worried about ma and pa when he commits to mass murder.
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Old 1st December 2021, 06:54 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yeah, it's not like Biden has a history free of evidence of racial biases, but this call just ain't it.

Not that I'm arguing it's a good call. I think it's silly because the variant probably doesn't even originate in Southern Africa, even if it did it's obviously not limited to spreading there at this point, the ban doesn't even stop people who are there from coming here if they're American, and the ban just incentivizes places to test less and not tell others when they do find stuff like this.

They should put in strict (and temporary) quarantine measures for all people coming in from areas it is currently shown to have spread even if they are Americans until more data is available.
And I have to point out that the guy you are responding to is a die hard Bernie bro who has apparently never forgiven Biden for winning the Nomination.
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Old 1st December 2021, 07:30 PM   #24
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Total ad hominem, but on first glance at his mug photo, did anyone else think...
Nelson Muntz?


Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
I wonder how long it will be before someone over there blames computer games?
I've already heard a comment that said he was in a "game room" at some point (I assume, online). Just like almost every other teenage boy out there.
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Old 1st December 2021, 07:44 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Because there is resistance by the American gun-cult to laws that require parents to securely store weapons because this "tramples freedoms"..[snip]
Think the problem comes down to how it would have to be enforced. Who is inspecting residences, how often, with what probable cause, what punishment and for which weapons? If the parents are going to be prosecuted, it would seem the laws on the books already cover this at some rate for when things go wrong. Trampling rights are not something that people are going to jump on board with, and I don't see a way to have this help without doing so.
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Old 1st December 2021, 07:55 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Think the problem comes down to how it would have to be enforced. Who is inspecting residences, how often, with what probable cause, what punishment and for which weapons? If the parents are going to be prosecuted, it would seem the laws on the books already cover this at some rate for when things go wrong.
It would seem not, if the idea of prosecuting the parents in this case is merely being "considered" and doesn't end up happening. A more solid law, or more consistent enforcement, is needed.

It doesn't have to be something that's inspected. If your kid misuses a weapon you own, you are prosecuted as a co-defendant for whatever crime they committed.
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Old 1st December 2021, 08:01 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Because there is resistance by the American gun-cult to laws that require parents to securely store weapons because this "tramples freedoms"; and there is also resistance to measures to keep guns away from children in general, largely owing to a curious, widespread dogmatic belief that exposure to guns and gun culture magically makes children good and law-abiding people.
*MS-13 shoots a an annoyed look*
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Old 1st December 2021, 10:13 PM   #28
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Oxford school shooting - latest: Suspect Ethan Crumbley in court as mother’s pro-gun letter to Trump emerges

Quote:
“As a female and a Realtor, thank you for allowing my right to bear arms,” she wrote. “Allowing me to be protected if I show a home to someone with bad intentions. Thank you for respecting that Amendment.”
That's about the nicest quote from the mother's blog entry (from 2016, during the Trump/Hillary election campaign phase):

Quote:
Mr. Trump, this is why I voted for you. I see the change that we so desperately need. I see jobs coming back, people having to work for their handouts, money going to who really deserve it. Big Pharma taken down, Monsanto stop poisoning us. Jobs given back to our American workers. I believe YOU are the President who will make these things happen. I have NEVER had this much belief in one person, and you are it.

If this blog even makes it to your eyes…thank you. From the bottom of my heart.

Yours Truly,

A hard working Middle Class Law Abiding Citizen who is sick of getting ****** in the *** and would rather be grabbed by the pussy.

Echoes (to me, at least) of the mother of the Sandy Hook shooter, who taught her son to shoot and went to ranges with him because she thought it would draw him out of his shell. The world would have been better off had he stayed in that shell.
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Old 1st December 2021, 10:14 PM   #29
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My question is: Was HE the "good guy with a gun"??
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Old 1st December 2021, 11:26 PM   #30
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In the old days I could have called this thread "Responsible gun owner buys new gun and lets teenage kid access it."
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Old 1st December 2021, 11:28 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Oxford school shooting - latest: Suspect Ethan Crumbley in court as mother’s pro-gun letter to Trump emerges



That's about the nicest quote from the mother's blog entry (from 2016, during the Trump/Hillary election campaign phase):
Breaking news:. Shooter's mother is a dumbass.
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Old 1st December 2021, 11:34 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Why not both?
Because giving teachers guns on the classroom will result in:

Accidental shootings.

Stolen guns.

Teachers making bad judgements in tense situations, and firing guns when no guns ought to be fired.

Teachers making bad judgements in high pressure situations, and shooting the wrong people.

Fights that escalate to deadly force.

Shootings done in self defense where the self defense claim is based on the fear that an attacker will take the gun.

And, since teachers are not immune from mental illness, anger, stress induced breakdowns, and all the other things that cause people to snap, there will be an occasional murder.
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Old 1st December 2021, 11:35 PM   #33
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I saw both the parents on the zoom call for the arraignment/charges. It looked like they were sending from their car. Both were wearing trucker caps but I couldn't see the logos. Neither one was red, though.

I'd think that appearing before a judge for your son, even on a screen, would warrant a little more dignified and sober appearance. (Not to imply they weren't sober, but who knows?)
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Old 1st December 2021, 11:44 PM   #34
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Simple rule: if you're weapon is taken because it wasn't secured, and used to commit a crime, you loose your right to have one.

That would boost gun safe sales.
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Old 1st December 2021, 11:50 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I saw both the parents on the zoom call for the arraignment/charges. It looked like they were sending from their car. Both were wearing trucker caps but I couldn't see the logos. Neither one was red, though.

I'd think that appearing before a judge for your son, even on a screen, would warrant a little more dignified and sober appearance. (Not to imply they weren't sober, but who knows?)
News reports here suggested that the hats were worn primarily to be a partial disguise. They could at least conceal their hair, and wear them low so that their faces weren't quite as recognizable.
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Old 2nd December 2021, 02:35 AM   #36
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Yes, let's arm the teachers and add even more guns to the mix. What could possibly go wrong?
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Old 2nd December 2021, 02:50 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Yes, let's arm the teachers and add even more guns to the mix. What could possibly go wrong?
...and let's fire the teachers who are unwilling to be armed - clearly they don't care about their pupils' welfare.
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Old 2nd December 2021, 02:55 AM   #38
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It's been reported today that a couple of hours before the shooting, the shooter's parents were at the school, having been called there by administrators for a meeting about their son's "concerning behavior". The exact nature of the behavior in question hasn't been disclosed yet.
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Old 2nd December 2021, 03:12 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It would seem not, if the idea of prosecuting the parents in this case is merely being "considered" and doesn't end up happening. A more solid law, or more consistent enforcement, is needed.

It doesn't have to be something that's inspected. If your kid misuses a weapon you own, you are prosecuted as a co-defendant for whatever crime they committed.
In the UK (it is slightly different in the various legislations but overall its the same) when you apply for a licence the police will visit your home and inspect where and how your guns and ammunition are stored. If that is is sufficient and you get your licence it is then up to you to inform the police if you change how you store your firearms and ammunition in the future.
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Old 2nd December 2021, 03:17 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
In the UK (it is slightly different in the various legislations but overall its the same) when you apply for a licence the police will visit your home and inspect where and how your guns and ammunition are stored. If that is is sufficient and you get your licence it is then up to you to inform the police if you change how you store your firearms and ammunition in the future.
Yeah there's no way in hell that'd happen here.
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