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Old 1st June 2021, 05:47 PM   #1001
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Update on the Ford EF-150

Ford’s Electric F-150 Lightning Could Far Exceed 300-Mile Range
Quote:
If you were hoping for a little more than 300-miles per charge from Ford’s new electric F-150 Lightning, we could have good news. According to reports, the F-150 Lightning may offer up to 450-miles on a single charge and only hit the estimated EPA 300-mile range while carrying 1,000 pounds of payload.

Plus an interesting tidbit which relates a little to earlier discussions about range and load.
Quote:
... the truck has a weight system in the back that will adjust range estimates based on weight.
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Old 1st June 2021, 06:57 PM   #1002
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As a Vermonter I would also add that Tippit's comments on the sources of electric power are regional, as well as being subject to change. Fortunately we are not all governed by the coal and oil lobbies.
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Old 1st June 2021, 07:27 PM   #1003
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Just to add a couple cents here, there’s also economies of scale. Even if one assumes the same fuel in a power plant and a vehicle, the centralized plant will be more efficient and environmentally friendly. Turbine generators operate much more efficiently than ICEs, large plants can support more thorough and extensive emissions controls and reclamation facilities, they offer a single place for inspection to verify they’re meeting proper controls, and you’re not using even more power to transport tons of fuel to distribution centers all over the place.

There are a lot of external costs and secondary factors that are seemingly being ignored for ICE, and exaggerated for electric.


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Old 1st June 2021, 07:43 PM   #1004
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
And I think that the comparative agility of a smaller lighter vehicle is considered part of its primary safety just as the mass of a larger vehicle helps its secondary safety (for its occupants at least).
That isn't intrinsic. Friction forces scale with weight, so if you double the weight of a vehicle, then you double the amount of friction force between the vehicle and the road, allowing the same limiting acceleration.

There are a few complications to this in real life. For speeding up, your limit is usually not the maximum friction the tires can provide but rather the maximum force the engine can produce. High end sports cars are really the only exception there. But for safety, you're usually looking at braking and turning, where the maximum acceleration is dictated by friction. And that maximum force is proportional to weight. It can get more complicated for turning, though, since friction force isn't necessarily the limiting factor. High center of gravity can also limit maximum lateral force to something less than the friction tires can provide. And SUV's (which are heavy) typically have a higher center of gravity than cars, and thus roll easier and can't turn as fast. But it's that high COG, not the increase weight, which is responsible. A heavy sports car with a low COG can in principle turn just as well as a light sports car with a low COG.
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Old 1st June 2021, 08:43 PM   #1005
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Anyone buying EVs because they believe that anthropogenic climate change is some kind of real problem, are kidding themselves.
Fail.

How can we take you seriously when you open with a silly statement like that?

Quote:
First of all, the Lithium ion batteries in Teslas and other EVs are highly toxic. They're known to produce CO gas, and Lithium mining is even more toxic, consumes and pollutes more water, and is more environmentally damaging than fracking.
More fail. The lead in Pb batteries is even more toxic - and there is a lot more of it. Mining of most metals is also highly toxic, as is the extraction and use of coal and other fossil fuels.

However EV batteries don't routinely leak and vent toxic fumes in 'normal' operation like fossil fuels do. Every oil well, tanker, train, pipeline, storage tank, gas station and motor vehicle is a potential and often real source of contamination and/or direct exposure to toxic and carcinogenic fossil fuel products.

But of course you ignore the environmental impact of fossil fuels, because that would weaken your argument.

Quote:
Second, only a tiny fraction of Li+ batteries are recycled, something on the order of 2-3%.
A worthless statistic. Firstly, almost 50% of the Lithium used in batteries (which is only 40% of total Lithium consumption) goes into batteries used in consumer devices. That most of them are thrown away is not surprising, but this says nothing about electric car battery recycling rates. The vast majority of EV batteries are still in the car, and batteries taken out of junked cars are routinely 'recycled' into other vehicles. Most EV manufacturers warranty the battery for 8 years, and few cars are older than that. I own a first generation 2011 Leaf, which (like most of that age) still has the original battery. I expect to get several more years out of it, but when I eventually need to replace it you can bet the old one will be fully recycled.

But of course you knew this (or should have). You happily lump electric car batteries in with the millions of batteries used in portable electronic gadgets that are thrown away every day because it suits your agenda.

Quote:
So they decompose in landfills where they pollute the ground water.
Just like everything put into landfills. But you won't find many electric car batteries there.

Quote:
Third, and most importantly, 80% of the power grid (in the United States, at least) is fueled by non-renewable energy sources (coal, petroleum, natural gas, nuclear, etc...) So all of the virtue signaling EV drivers who like to think highly of themselves for not burning gasoline in an ICE, are still charging their EV batteries from a grid whereby only 20% is powered by renewable energy.
Even more FAIL!

Even if 80% of all electricity generated was from fossil fuels, electric cars could still reduce carbon emissions due their much higher efficiency than IC engines. Many 'virtue signaling' EV drivers are either choosing cleaner electricity sources (which incentivizes producers to install more renewable capacity) or are producing it themselves. Since the US does not have a national grid that combines the output of all sources, where individuals get their power from does matter. And the proportion of 'green' power is increasing, so even if your source is not cleaner now, it probably will be.

And of course (in case you thought you could get away with slipping it into the same category as fossil fuels) nuclear also qualifies for 'virtue signaling'.

Are Electric Vehicles Really Better for the Climate? Yes.
Quote:
To compare the climate-changing emissions from electric vehicles to gasoline-powered cars, we analyzed all the emissions from fueling and driving both types of vehicles. For a gasoline car, that means looking at emissions from extracting crude oil from the ground, moving the oil to a refinery, making gasoline and transporting gasoline to filling stations, in addition to combustion emissions from the tailpipe.

For electric vehicles, the calculation includes both power plant emissions and emissions from the production of coal, natural gas and other fuels power plants use...

When looking at all these factors, driving the average EV is responsible for fewer global warming emissions than the average new gasoline car everywhere in the US. In some parts of the country, driving the average new gasoline car will produce 4 to 7 times the emissions of the average EV...

Compared to our last analysis that used 2016 power plant data, emissions from EVs are on average 10 percent lower. The reductions have come from two primary sources:

- The emissions rate from power plants in the US fell over 5 percent between 2016 and 2018. The drop comes from lower generation from coal and increases in natural gas, wind, and solar.

- The average efficiency of EVs sold to-date in the US improved since our last analysis (by about 6 percent).
It took me 10 seconds of googling to find that report. Why couldn't you do the same? Of course we both know the reason...

Quote:
Just because your precious EV doesn't emit CO2 (which is not a pollutant), doesn't mean the power plant that you're charging your vehicle from isn't generating the emissions for you.
See above. You are wrong. Using fossil fuel to generate electricity for EVs produces fewer emissions than burning it in gas cars. And as the grid gets cleaner it gets better. Buy an EV today, and tomorrow it will be even cleaner than it is now.

Quote:
The two positives that EVs have, is that they are quiet, and electric motors have a lot of torque. But to pretend that you are benefiting the environment by purchasing one, is an exercise in self-delusion.
Some are deluding themselves for sure - but not EV owners.

You keep making unscientific statements, misrepresenting statistics, ignoring facts, appealing to emotion and employing dishonest tricks to justify your refusal to accept change and 'inconvenient' truths. Keep doing it if you like, but we aren't listening. We've heard and debunked it all before, and now we just want to get on with dealing with the problems you say don't exist. And unlike you, we will enjoy rising to the challenge.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg lithium use.jpg (33.0 KB, 6 views)
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Old 1st June 2021, 09:16 PM   #1006
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It's an interesting question; does a floor-mounted battery pack offset the increased weight and the trend for cars to get taller?
I went from a Nissan Sentra to a Leaf, and immediately noticed the higher seating position improved my ability to see past other cars. This made a huge difference to my driving confidence. With my old car I often felt 'boxed in' by larger SUVs etc., and had trouble negotiating intersections when I couldn't tell if the road was clear. I now understand why people prefer taller vehicles, and would never go back to a car where it feels like I am riding just above the road surface.

The Leaf is a bit heavier than my old car, but with the battery under the floor it seems more stable. Of course it also has many other safety features that my old car didn't have too - like front and side airbags, stronger door pillars, anti-skid braking, no hefty engine trying to land on your lap... The only problem is the slightly longer length and wider turning circle makes it a bit trickier getting into small parking spaces.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 08:06 AM   #1007
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Result. Thanks to my pestering and my MSP, the car park at home is now on the council list to have electric chargers installed.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 11:38 AM   #1008
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The seagull has gone, folks
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Old 12th June 2021, 12:14 AM   #1009
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Battery swapping coming to Europe
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Old 12th June 2021, 06:41 PM   #1010
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Anyone buying EVs because they believe that anthropogenic climate change is some kind of real problem, are kidding themselves.

First of all, the Lithium ion batteries in Teslas and other EVs are highly toxic. They're known to produce CO gas, and Lithium mining is even more toxic, consumes and pollutes more water, and is more environmentally damaging than fracking.

Second, only a tiny fraction of Li+ batteries are recycled, something on the order of 2-3%. So they decompose in landfills where they pollute the ground water.

Third, and most importantly, 80% of the power grid (in the United States, at least) is fueled by non-renewable energy sources (coal, petroleum, natural gas, nuclear, etc...) So all of the virtue signaling EV drivers who like to think highly of themselves for not burning gasoline in an ICE, are still charging their EV batteries from a grid whereby only 20% is powered by renewable energy.

Just because your precious EV doesn't emit CO2 (which is not a pollutant), doesn't mean the power plant that you're charging your vehicle from isn't generating the emissions for you.

The two positives that EVs have, is that they are quiet, and electric motors have a lot of torque. But to pretend that you are benefiting the environment by purchasing one, is an exercise in self-delusion.
I don't believe my state (Hawaii) is the only state that makes electricity with gas powered turbines.

So unless you have PV panels that can power up your EV car, you're charging it up with electricity made from fossil fuels.
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Old 12th June 2021, 07:30 PM   #1011
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
I don't believe my state (Hawaii) is the only state that makes electricity with gas powered turbines.

So unless you have PV panels that can power up your EV car, you're charging it up with electricity made from fossil fuels.
Wrong.

First of all, let us not forget that some people on this forum are not Americans, so one cannot discount the possibility that people are charging their cars from Norwegian waterfalls, or French nuclear plants, and the like. But even in the US, there are regions where at least a significant portion of the power used comes from non-fossil sources, including wind, hydro, and non-domestic solar.

The last account I saw of Vermont's electric energy sources, I believe it was 99.9 percent renewable, mostly from Hydro Quebec. We produce only about a third of the electric energy we consume, but of that domestic production, more than half is from hydro.

So here in Vermont, if I were to buy an electric car, the only way I could possibly run it on fossil fuel would be to charge it with my own gas generator.
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Old 12th June 2021, 07:35 PM   #1012
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17% of power in the US is generated from renewable sources. That's not a lot but it ain't nothing.
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Old 12th June 2021, 07:46 PM   #1013
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Wrong.

First of all, let us not forget that some people on this forum are not Americans, so one cannot discount the possibility that people are charging their cars from Norwegian waterfalls, or French nuclear plants, and the like. But even in the US, there are regions where at least a significant portion of the power used comes from non-fossil sources, including wind, hydro, and non-domestic solar.

The last account I saw of Vermont's electric energy sources, I believe it was 99.9 percent renewable, mostly from Hydro Quebec. We produce only about a third of the electric energy we consume, but of that domestic production, more than half is from hydro.

So here in Vermont, if I were to buy an electric car, the only way I could possibly run it on fossil fuel would be to charge it with my own gas generator.
So I'm wrong about how electricity is made in my own state? And that electricity is made from oil/gas?

I wonder when Hawaiian electric company converted their main power plant to Norwegian waterfalls and such?
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Old 12th June 2021, 08:19 PM   #1014
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It's largely irrelevant where EV's power is sourced. An Electric Motor is more efficient than an Internal combustion engine, and can be 'powered' from multiple sources.

This will help extend the 'life' of fossil fuels, and help drive improvements to EV technology in the process.
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Old 12th June 2021, 08:22 PM   #1015
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You (Joecool) might have meant the "you" in the second sentence of post 1010 as a hypothetical person in the context of the first sentence (Hawaii), but the text looks just the same as if the intended meaning of "you" had been either the individual whom you (Joecool) were replying to (Tippit), or each individual who was reading that post ("you the audience").

It's an ambiguity that I like to avoid by using the hypothetical "one" instead of the hypothetical "you", even though I know it makes me look/sound un-American: "So unless one (in Hawaii) has PV panels that can power up one's EV car, one (in Hawaii) is charging it up with electricity made from fossil fuels."

* * *

(Also I doubt even that sentence's accuracy. It seems odd to me to imagine a tropical volcanic island chain using no other source of electricity but fossil fuels which at a glance would seem to need to be imported, but some of my presumptions in there could be wrong.)

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Old 12th June 2021, 09:02 PM   #1016
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
So I'm wrong about how electricity is made in my own state? And that electricity is made from oil/gas?

I wonder when Hawaiian electric company converted their main power plant to Norwegian waterfalls and such?
Well....
Quote:
The state of Hawaii instituted a mandate that 30 percent of electricity generation must come from renewable sources as of 2020. But the state's utilities have already exceeded that figure as they move toward a completely clean energy system.

Hawaiian Electric, the state's largest utility, reported this month that its 2020 generation mix reached 34.5 percent renewable across Oahu, Hawaii Island and Maui. Renewable production rose 13 percent from 2019.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...power-adoption
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Old 12th June 2021, 10:32 PM   #1017
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
So I'm wrong about how electricity is made in my own state? And that electricity is made from oil/gas?

I wonder when Hawaiian electric company converted their main power plant to Norwegian waterfalls and such?
You mentioned Hawaii, but your comment "So unless you have PV panels that can power up your EV car, you're charging it up with electricity made from fossil fuels." did not, as far as I can see, specify that you were speaking about Hawaii.

I take "you" in that context to mean whoever is participating in the thread. If you meant otherwise, I suggest that a bit more clarity would help.
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Old 12th June 2021, 10:44 PM   #1018
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Well, I do power my electric car from the solar panels on my roof, so...
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Old 12th June 2021, 11:39 PM   #1019
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
An Electric Motor is more efficient than an Internal combustion engine, and can be 'powered' from multiple sources.
Not forgetting that the stuff powering an ICE car takes massive amounts of energy to extract, refine, and transport.
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Old 13th June 2021, 07:24 AM   #1020
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Jay Leno (remember him, of talk show fame) just broke a land-speed record for production automobiles, driving a Tesla Model S plaid.

I think that type of publicity is great... Another thing for electric vehicles to brag about... "Why stick with your old, slow gas-powered vehicle? Go electric for speed!"

https://etcanada.com/news/791055/jay...model-s-plaid/

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Old 13th June 2021, 08:05 AM   #1021
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If they're going to make electric cars that fast, they need to find a way to make the driver use an extra pedal and stick for no reason, and link that to a system that actually inhibits speed while you're fiddling with the useless extra parts, just to make the gearheads happy.
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Old 13th June 2021, 12:14 PM   #1022
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Just put a fidget spinner shaped like a late 80s Ferrari Gated Shifter in the dash so the stupid gearheads can be like a toddler holding a second controller that's not even plugged in so he thinks he's helping his older brother play a game. That's all a manual transmission pretty much is worth these days anyway.

Hell, give them all sorts of dummy knobs and switches so they can think they are changing the steering stiffness and the suspension firmness and the fuel/air ratios ("But it's an electric car..." "Trust me they won't care.") to their heart's content.
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Old 13th June 2021, 08:25 PM   #1023
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Well, I do power my electric car from the solar panels on my roof, so...
I don't have solar (yet) but Canberra's power grid is powered 100% by renewable energy - if you count offsets. Kind of.
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Old 14th June 2021, 07:37 AM   #1024
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Just repeat an earlier post, even if your EV is ultimately powered by fossil fuels, that gas turbine generator operates more efficiently and cleaner than a car ICE. Still a net gain.


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Old 14th June 2021, 07:42 AM   #1025
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Just repeat an earlier post, even if your EV is ultimately powered by fossil fuels, that gas turbine generator operates more efficiently and cleaner than a car ICE. Still a net gain.
Yes but the "Environmentalism is bunk because Al Gore doesn't live in a solar powered cardboard box" brigade have to think of it that way, that if electric cars aren't somehow 100% ecology perfect that means they are just as bad.
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Old 14th June 2021, 07:59 AM   #1026
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Something as a tangent to Electric vehicles...

From: Mining.com
Researchers at King Abdullah University of Science and Technology developed what they believe is an economically viable system to extract high-purity lithium from seawater.

There have been other attempts to extract Lithium from seawater, but the other experiments didn't produce as much lithium. (Note that this is just at the research phase, so it is possible that this may never end up being used in an industrial setting.)

Given the need for Lithium-Ion batteries in electric vehicles, this could be useful... china is one of the top lithium producers, and they are often caught up in various geopolitical conflicts. And extracting lithium from seawater would eliminate the need to build more mines.
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Old 14th June 2021, 08:01 AM   #1027
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Just repeat an earlier post, even if your EV is ultimately powered by fossil fuels, that gas turbine generator operates more efficiently and cleaner than a car ICE. Still a net gain.
Surprisingly, to me, anyway, this even seems true at the most basic level, using a diesel generator to provide the electricity to charge EVs.
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Old 14th June 2021, 08:02 AM   #1028
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I'm reminded of how often I've had to point out the fact that a standard coal burning power plant produces more radiation than a nuclear power plants, yet "OMG radidation chernobyl three mile island" is still the primary argument against nuclear plants.
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Old 14th June 2021, 04:02 PM   #1029
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Surprisingly, to me, anyway, this even seems true at the most basic level, using a diesel generator to provide the electricity to charge EVs.

Well, it makes more sense when you consider the torque curves on ICEs. There’s an optimal rpm for efficiency, in a vehicle it can’t stay at that optimum (near it via gearing, but not on it). A generator can run at exactly the best speed all the time.


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Old 14th June 2021, 07:23 PM   #1030
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Something as a tangent to Electric vehicles...

From: Mining.com
Researchers at King Abdullah University of Science and Technology developed what they believe is an economically viable system to extract high-purity lithium from seawater.

There have been other attempts to extract Lithium from seawater, but the other experiments didn't produce as much lithium. (Note that this is just at the research phase, so it is possible that this may never end up being used in an industrial setting.)

Given the need for Lithium-Ion batteries in electric vehicles, this could be useful... china is one of the top lithium producers, and they are often caught up in various geopolitical conflicts. And extracting lithium from seawater would eliminate the need to build more mines.
While I agree that a new source of lithium is extremely useful, it's entirely possible that aluminium ion batteries will replace lithium, especially in electric vehicles.

By the way, in your monstrous link, everything from /? to the end can be deleted without changing the function of the link, and I have done so in the quote.
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Old 15th June 2021, 05:04 AM   #1031
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Interesting.

Another article I read contradicts this

Quote:
The new battery cells are claimed to deliver far more power density than current lithium-ion batteries, without the cooling, heating or rare-earth problems they face.
stating that the aluminium batteries only had 60% percent of the energy density of lithium-ion batteries, but were still better because they charge so quickly.

The linked article is far more positive
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Old 15th June 2021, 05:29 AM   #1032
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Announcement from Volkswagen regarding a partnership with Tesco (IIRC the UK's largest supermarket chain) to provide free chargers for all EVs (not just VAG ones).

Quote:
Volkswagen and Tesco want to make it easier for you to charge your electric car while you’re out, no matter what brand of Electric Vehicle you drive. That’s why by the end of July 2021 there will be free 7kW EV charging bays at 400 Tesco stores. At selected stores there are free 22kW chargers and (chargeable) 50kW rapid chargers. All of the chargers are installed by Pod Point, the UK’s largest independent public charging network operator, and all use renewable/green energy.
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/electri...nerships/tesco

For now it's just the 7kw and 22kw ones that are free but this is an indication of the kinds of solution which may help those without home charging.
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Old 16th June 2021, 01:48 PM   #1033
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Just repeat an earlier post, even if your EV is ultimately powered by fossil fuels, that gas turbine generator operates more efficiently and cleaner than a car ICE. Still a net gain.
Another thing that is often ignored is that EVs don't release toxic fumes into the cities where we live. I count that as a huge bonus.
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Old 16th June 2021, 02:04 PM   #1034
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Yes. I suspect that the recent furore about tyre and brake dust (even though ev's should produce less of both) was more distraction from the ICE makers
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Old 16th June 2021, 02:27 PM   #1035
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
Yes. I suspect that the recent furore about tyre and brake dust (even though ev's should produce less of both) was more distraction from the ICE makers
That seems like a really flimsy one. It's like saying this dog won't poop on the floor like all the other dogs, and someone says, "yeah, but he still sheds."
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Old 16th June 2021, 02:39 PM   #1036
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Again the "You're not perfect, therefore you don't get to point out any advantages you have" is a well established new tactic.
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Old 16th June 2021, 06:23 PM   #1037
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You may recall we bought a new 2018 Honda Clarity PHEV in late 2018. It was a unique year for us in that we had enough taxable income to benefit from the full $7,500 tax credit, bringing the net cost down considerably.

We now have over 54,000 trouble-free miles on it. EV range has dropped a tiny bit, but we still get an honest 35 to 52 miles on battery before going hybrid, depending on temperature and driving conditions. (Honda advertises 47 EV miles average). Then, it gets about 42 mpg, great for a car of this size and weight.

Sadly, today it’s apparently official - Honda is pulling the plug on all models of the Clarity in August.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/h...nd-production/

They cite poor sales, but sales seemed doomed when Honda did essentially zero advertising of the marque. It’s apparent they didn’t actually want to sell them in large numbers - at the U.S. selling price they likely lost money on every sale. The working hypothesis is they just wanted to get a small number out in the wild to get data from owners and perhaps to slightly improve their fleet’s overall fuel economy figures.

In any case we still love the car and plan on keeping it for at least several more years. We always suspected that PHEV’s would end up a transitional step to an all EV future. Eventually we’ll have to consider the landscape of Tesla’s and other EV’s from Honda and others.

Regardless, we got a great car for a great price and are very satisfied Clarity owners.

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 16th June 2021 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 17th June 2021, 03:56 PM   #1038
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
Yes. I suspect that the recent furore about tyre and brake dust (even though ev's should produce less of both) was more distraction from the ICE makers
Mine was built in 2014 and is still on the original set of brake pads (regenerative braking means that I rarely use the physical brakes), but...

... the car is heavier, and has eaten a set of tyres.

Given the mileage the car has done, I'm thinking that tyre wear is increased.
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Old 19th June 2021, 08:23 AM   #1039
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An article of interest...

Apparently 1 out of 5 people un California who bought electric cars between 2012 and 2018 switched back to a gas powered car.

Unsurprisingly the biggest issue was charging time. (Most people did not have access to fast chargers and had to deal with level 1 charging at home or work.)

Wonder if it might be more useful for the government to subsidize people installing fast chargers at businesses or in homes rather than investing in charging stations.

https://news.yahoo.com/1-5-electric-...164149467.html

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Old 19th June 2021, 10:52 AM   #1040
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
An article of interest...

Apparently 1 out of 5 people in California who bought electric cars between 2012 and 2018 switched back to a gas powered car.
I've been thinking about that report since is was mentioned earlier. Even though about 20% of EV buyers switching back to gas doesn't seem too surprising to me. A person or family's vehicle needs evolve over time - someone who bought a car may need a minivan a few years later when the kids get older.

And things in the EV world have changed dramatically over the years.

The range of a typical EV on a single charge has more than doubled since 2012. California now has about 10 times as many charging stations as it did in 2012. EVs have generally gotten better and more affordable since then. And, they are starting to be offered in more forms such as the Ford truck.
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