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Old 20th June 2021, 05:14 PM   #1041
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Apparently 1 out of 5 people un California who bought electric cars between 2012 and 2018 switched back to a gas powered car.
So what you are saying is that 80% stayed with their EVs. Can you imagine the Carbon savings if 80% of US drivers switched over to EVs with renewables and nuclear run power-grid? Actually, I did some quick math for you, it's about a Billion Tons annually, or around half of the annual Carbon produced by transportation in the US.

ETA: Oh, and just for the entire story above, if the US switched to a 100% Nuclear and non-carbon electricity grid, and had 80% of drivers switch to EVs, then they could reduce their Carbon emissions by around 50% which would put them at about 1963 levels!
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Old 21st June 2021, 07:22 AM   #1042
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Quote:
Apparently 1 out of 5 people un California who bought electric cars between 2012 and 2018 switched back to a gas powered car.
So what you are saying is that 80% stayed with their EVs. Can you imagine the Carbon savings if 80% of US drivers switched over to EVs with renewables and nuclear run power-grid?
I am not denying that even 80% staying with electric vehicles would result in a huge reduction in carbon.

My point in posting the above statistic was to highlight potential problems with the adoption of electric vehicles.

The 20% who switched back from electric to gas were early adopters. They thought (for whatever reason, be it environmental concerns, potentially cheaper long-term costs, etc.) that an electric vehicle was the best choice, but found out later that there were too many problems with their EV to make it workable. If you want wide-spread adoption of EVs, it would be valuable to look at just why some people were unhappy with their EV in order to address those problems.
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Old 21st June 2021, 07:30 AM   #1043
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I'm surprised charging time at home is such an issue. 300 miles is a pretty long range for most daily drivers, and the article makes it sound like 6hrs of charging at 120V is a problem for many. My car easily spends 10-12 hrs parked at my home each night and another 9 parked at work. Even level 1 charging, assuming I had access to power at either location, would be adequate. If I had a garage and access to power, plugging in each night at home and waking up to full range sounds more convenient than weekly stops at the gas station.

Lack of fast charging stations make long road trips very inconvenient, but I'm surprised that the 300 mile range is a real hurdle for that many ordinary commuters.
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Old 21st June 2021, 08:25 AM   #1044
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm surprised charging time at home is such an issue. 300 miles is a pretty long range for most daily drivers, and the article makes it sound like 6hrs of charging at 120V is a problem for many. My car easily spends 10-12 hrs parked at my home each night and another 9 parked at work. Even level 1 charging, assuming I had access to power at either location, would be adequate. If I had a garage and access to power, plugging in each night at home and waking up to full range sounds more convenient than weekly stops at the gas station.

Lack of fast charging stations make long road trips very inconvenient, but I'm surprised that the 300 mile range is a real hurdle for that many ordinary commuters.
While I think that is true, we can't be sure that those 20 percent were buying cars with that much range, or how long it took them to charge. There are also other issues that may or may not be an influence.

It's possible that some early adopters were hoping for more infrastructure growth than happened, or that they were overly optimistic about the charging times and costs.
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Old 21st June 2021, 09:09 AM   #1045
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm surprised charging time at home is such an issue. 300 miles is a pretty long range for most daily drivers, ...
Three hundred miles is at the upper range of newer EVs. Cars back in 2012 at the start of that study had less range. For example, the range on my 2015 EV is about 50-70 miles on a charge. Newer models of the same car get about double that range.
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Old 21st June 2021, 09:11 AM   #1046
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Originally Posted by jadebox View Post
Three hundred miles is at the upper range of newer EVs. Cars back in 2012 at the start of that study had less range. For example, the range on my 2015 EV is about 50-70 miles on a charge. Newer models of the same car get about double that range.
That makes more sense. I imagine that range might have been just enough for a lot of people, and getting stuck without juice and no quick way to fix it is probably an experience that sours people pretty quick.
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Old 21st June 2021, 09:14 AM   #1047
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm surprised charging time at home is such an issue. 300 miles is a pretty long range for most daily drivers, and the article makes it sound like 6hrs of charging at 120V is a problem for many.
Again there's this rather unfair idea that your basic daily commute is the only performance metric its reasonable to expect a car to meet.

Even if you only have to go 300+ miles once or twice a year it's something a car has to do, especially if its your only car.

Like I keep saying it only rains about 10 days a year in parts of Arizona. That doesn't make houses with roofs a niche market.
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Old 21st June 2021, 09:21 AM   #1048
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again there's this rather unfair idea that your basic daily commute is the only performance metric its reasonable to expect a car to meet.

Even if you only have to go 300+ miles once or twice a year it's something a car has to do, especially if its your only car.

Like I keep saying it only rains about 10 days a year in parts of Arizona. That doesn't make houses with roofs a niche market.
Once or twice a year is firmly into "rental car" territory IMO, as it is for me now for the 1 or 2 times a year I need a truck as opposed to my sedan. Not sure what frequency would tilt the scales for me as far as inconvenience.
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Old 21st June 2021, 09:23 AM   #1049
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

Even if you only have to go 300+ miles once or twice a year it's something a car has to do, especially if its your only car.
It might be reasonable to just rent an appropriate car for those one or two trips a year.
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Old 21st June 2021, 09:27 AM   #1050
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Again we've already been down the path of all the things which are "niche markets" or "edge cases" just because electric car supporters say so up to and including:

- I live in an apartment/similar and don't have access to a charging solution of any kind at all.
- I need a vehicle that can, on a frequency enough for it to matter, be able to travel further than it's onboard energy storage and multiple hours sitting at a charger instead of 5 minutes at a gas station is not viable.
- I simply can't afford one and "tax incentives" aren't the same thing as actually making the car cheaper at the moment of purchase.

... already dismissed as a supercharged Creeper riding a unicorn during a solar eclipse on a leap year level of rare occurrence.
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Old 21st June 2021, 09:36 AM   #1051
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again we've already been down the path of all the things which are "niche markets" or "edge cases" just because electric car supporters say so up to and including:

- I live in an apartment/similar and don't have access to a charging solution of any kind at all.
- I need a vehicle that can, on a frequency enough for it to matter, be able to travel further than it's onboard energy storage and multiple hours sitting at a charger instead of 5 minutes at a gas station is not viable.
- I simply can't afford one and "tax incentives" aren't the same thing as actually making the car cheaper at the moment of purchase.

... already dismissed as a supercharged Creeper riding a unicorn during a solar eclipse on a leap year level of rare occurrence.
Not sure who this is directed at.

I'm not dismissing the range issue as an edge case, I'm speculating about which of the many barriers to EV adoption are the most significant.

The lowest hanging fruit right now is probably the huge swath of commuters that drive fairly short distances. People that routinely make very long drives, and at this point we're talking multi-hour non-stop road trips, are probably going to be the most difficult to meet the needs of. There's plenty of people where that is not a realistic problem or occurs at low enough frequency that renting a specialty vehicle or making special accommodation isn't unreasonable.

The lack of home and work charging strikes me as a much more immediate problem to mass adoption. Tesla largely avoids this problem by being high-cost luxury vehicles that are probably being bought by people with garages or other private parking that is easy to electrify. The everyman's car means that people who park in large surface lots or along the street for apartment complexes and multi-family housing are much less likely to have access to such nice parking arrangements.

It's not about hand-waving away problems as "edge cases", I'm just trying to identify what the most immediate barriers are for largest groups of people. The lowest hanging fruit should be picked first.
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Old 21st June 2021, 11:51 AM   #1052
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Of course if you only need extra range some of the time, and if you happen to live within reasonable distance of a rental place, and if you can plan these things enough in advance, the issue of range is less important. But I can see how even rare occasions could sour a buyer if they occur by surprise or in emergencies.

If you have a low range car that suffices most of the time, which is to say you can commute within the range if you recharge it overnight, that's fine until someone needs to go to the hospital in the middle of the night, or the power goes off for the day - things that may happen only a couple of times a year, but when they do, a discharged car will let you down in a hurry.

It also ought to be pointed out that renting a car can be pretty expensive. I went off visiting for a week, and it cost something around $500 to rent a tiny little three cylinder mini-compact. That's a fair chunk of change for a car that would be painful to take on any extended excursion. If you have more than one car, of course, one could be electric and another, in reserve, not. But if you have only one car, the limitations of range and convenience grow. If you own no car at all, rental can be a viable option, but it seems less so if you must rent a car and leave the one you own at home (or drive it to the rental lot, where it may or may not get enough charge to take you back home).

I can easily see how at least some early adopters would find that contingencies became too complicated, and might decide to abandon the project, at least for a while.

I still think there is plenty of room for plenty of electric adoption, and that there are many good reasons for going electric, and that we need very much to avoid an all-or-nothing attitude, as if we shouldn't think hard about it until everyone can get on board. But I also think that for many (Joe Morgue being a conspicuous example) it isn't time, and likely will not be for some time to come.

I'm somewhere between, I guess. As a multi-vehicle owner, I could likely replace the most used little econobox with an electric, saving my wife's SUV and my truck for when that can't be used. But infrastructure here is still a little weak, and at my own homesite, solar power is difficult owing to geography and distance (I'd have to run a long line between the best solar site and the best outlet site), and I have only a 100 amp electric service including the drop line, which is probably not adequate for any but the slowest charging. Some day, one of those problems will probably be corrected, but not today.
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Old 21st June 2021, 12:01 PM   #1053
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm surprised charging time at home is such an issue. 300 miles is a pretty long range for most daily drivers, and the article makes it sound like 6hrs of charging at 120V is a problem for many. My car easily spends 10-12 hrs parked at my home each night and another 9 parked at work. Even level 1 charging, assuming I had access to power at either location, would be adequate.
Well, the article mentions the driver of a Mustang electric vehicle who claimed, when using a level 1 charger, only got 36 miles of range when plugged in over night. (Maybe the Mustang is a notoriously slow car for charging, or has other inefficiencies, but you would think that since it is a 'sports' car, it would be decently built.)

Even if you started with a full ~300 mile charge, if your daily usage is above 36 miles (certainly possible for some people) throughout the week you would be draining more from the battery than you'd be putting in at night.
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Old 21st June 2021, 12:15 PM   #1054
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, the article mentions the driver of a Mustang electric vehicle who claimed, when using a level 1 charger, only got 36 miles of range when plugged in over night. (Maybe the Mustang is a notoriously slow car for charging, or has other inefficiencies, but you would think that since it is a 'sports' car, it would be decently built.)

Even if you started with a full ~300 mile charge, if your daily usage is above 36 miles (certainly possible for some people) throughout the week you would be draining more from the battery than you'd be putting in at night.
Yeah, that's pretty bad. It's hard to imagine how anyone could justify buying one of these EV's if they didn't have reliable access to at least 240V charging overnight or while at work. Trickle charging off a 120V power outlet seems like a terrible option unless you're driving very few miles per day.
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Old 21st June 2021, 12:39 PM   #1055
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, the article mentions the driver of a Mustang electric vehicle who claimed, when using a level 1 charger, only got 36 miles of range when plugged in over night. (Maybe the Mustang is a notoriously slow car for charging, or has other inefficiencies, but you would think that since it is a 'sports' car, it would be decently built.)
Intersting. Our Clarity plugged into 120v charges at about 4 miles per hour. Sounds slow, but overnight almost invariably results in a full charge (typically 38 to 50 miles of EV range, mainly dependent on temperature) in the morning, even if starting at 0 miles. Which, being a hybrid is not at all scary. When we'd like a slightly quicker charge we can plug into 240v but with the same 16A charger. That results in about 10 miles per hour of charge, handy if we run multiple errands throughout the day. I don't see any reason why the Mustang would be doomed to charging much more slowly. since its technology should be about 3 years ahead of ours.

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Old 21st June 2021, 12:48 PM   #1056
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Intersting. Our Clarity plugged into 120v charges at about 4 miles per hour. Sounds slow, but overnight almost invariably results in a full charge (typically 38 to 50 miles of EV range, daily dependent on temperature) in the morning, even if starting at 0 miles. Which, being a hybrid is not at all scary. When we'd like a slightly quicker charge we can plug into 240v but with the same 16A charger. That results in about 10 miles per hour of charge, handy if we run multiple errands throughout the day. I don't see any reason why the Mustang would be doomed to charging much more slowly. since its technology should be about 3 years ahead of ours.
I think that's typical for charging off normal 120 V. This source says a Chevy Bolt only gets 4 miles/hr at 120V, where a level 2 (240V) charges 25 miles/hr.

Installing a 240V at your home or work seems to be the expectation, I don't really see how the slow charge is going to be practical for most.

https://www.chargepoint.com/blog/cha...you-need-know/
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Old 21st June 2021, 12:59 PM   #1057
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300 mile round trip in the Leaf this weekend. 4.9kw/mile on the way down, 4.5 on the way back when it was colder. Two rapid charges, about £14, plus two quids' worth at home
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Old 21st June 2021, 01:01 PM   #1058
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
300 mile round trip in the Leaf this weekend. 4.9kw/mile on the way down, 4.5 on the way back when it was colder. Two rapid charges, about £14, plus two quids' worth at home
What kind of charger do you have at home? A 240V?
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Old 21st June 2021, 01:06 PM   #1059
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7.2 kw, the car can take 6.something
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Old 21st June 2021, 02:36 PM   #1060
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again we've already been down the path of all the things which are "niche markets" or "edge cases" just because electric car supporters say so up to and including:

- I live in an apartment/similar and don't have access to a charging solution of any kind at all.
This is an issue, and apartment owners are starting to step up, but it is easier for home owners than apartment dwellers.

Quote:
- I need a vehicle that can, on a frequency enough for it to matter, be able to travel further than it's onboard energy storage and multiple hours sitting at a charger instead of 5 minutes at a gas station is not viable.
This is a lie. I already documented my trip on here to Yellowstone, and while charging times are slower than a gas fill up, they are not horrifically so.

Quote:
- I simply can't afford one and "tax incentives" aren't the same thing as actually making the car cheaper at the moment of purchase.
I posted a youtube video for you at your previous statement of this. There are more than 'tax incentives' available.

Quote:
... already dismissed as a supercharged Creeper riding a unicorn during a solar eclipse on a leap year level of rare occurrence.
I have no idea where you're going with this, other than the fact you're trying to make perfect the enemy of the good.
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Old 21st June 2021, 02:40 PM   #1061
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, the article mentions the driver of a Mustang electric vehicle who claimed, when using a level 1 charger, only got 36 miles of range when plugged in over night. (Maybe the Mustang is a notoriously slow car for charging, or has other inefficiencies, but you would think that since it is a 'sports' car, it would be decently built.)

Even if you started with a full ~300 mile charge, if your daily usage is above 36 miles (certainly possible for some people) throughout the week you would be draining more from the battery than you'd be putting in at night.
It's a 'Chicken or egg' scenario. At the moment, Only Teslas have access to a vast and wide range supercharge (level 3 chargers) network. There are others, but they are not as prevalent, or as accessible. It was the smartest thing Tesla did. I look forward to it, and other networks expanding. But for myself, my home level 2 charger works for my needs about 90% of the time.
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Old 21st June 2021, 04:01 PM   #1062
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
Quote:
Well, the article mentions the driver of a Mustang electric vehicle who claimed, when using a level 1 charger, only got 36 miles of range when plugged in over night.
It's a 'Chicken or egg' scenario. At the moment, Only Teslas have access to a vast and wide range supercharge (level 3 chargers) network. There are others, but they are not as prevalent, or as accessible. It was the smartest thing Tesla did. I look forward to it, and other networks expanding. But for myself, my home level 2 charger works for my needs about 90% of the time.
Again, the problem for many of the former EV owners who switched back to gas wasn't the lack of super-chargers. The problem seemed to be people who hoped they could recharge their car overnight or while at work (a natural expectation) but found that their available charging options couldn't provide enough power even over a longer time frame.

You can set up all the super-charging stations you want, but many people are still going to want the convenience of charge-at-home. I am not saying that supercharging should be ignored, just that the issue of home or work charging might need a little more attention. (Hence my earlier comment about how perhaps government infrastructure plans should dedicate at least some resources to the issue of home/work charging.)
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Old 21st June 2021, 04:09 PM   #1063
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Again, the problem for many of the former EV owners who switched back to gas wasn't the lack of super-chargers. The problem seemed to be people who hoped they could recharge their car overnight or while at work (a natural expectation) but found that their available charging options couldn't provide enough power even over a longer time frame.

You can set up all the super-charging stations you want, but many people are still going to want the convenience of charge-at-home. I am not saying that supercharging should be ignored, just that the issue of home or work charging might need a little more attention. (Hence my earlier comment about how perhaps government infrastructure plans should dedicate at least some resources to the issue of home/work charging.)
We had a home charger installed before we took delivery of the car. This though is only convenient if you own a home. The lack of Level 2 chargers in apartments, or rental homes is going to be an issue for a while.

I know there are some incentives for the installation of chargers to help fill the gap.
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Old 21st June 2021, 05:44 PM   #1064
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
We had a home charger installed before we took delivery of the car. This though is only convenient if you own a home. The lack of Level 2 chargers in apartments, or rental homes is going to be an issue for a while.

I know there are some incentives for the installation of chargers to help fill the gap.
Out of curiosity, what amperage, wattage, etc. are we talking about here, for a level 2 charger? I can get 240 volts easily enough, but I'd probably have to run a charger from my shop, whose 100 amp service is not under constant stress. The 100 amp at the house is minimal, resulting in things like the lights blinking when the pump or the furnace comes on.
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Old 21st June 2021, 06:04 PM   #1065
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
We had a home charger installed before we took delivery of the car. This though is only convenient if you own a home. The lack of Level 2 chargers in apartments, or rental homes is going to be an issue for a while.



I know there are some incentives for the installation of chargers to help fill the gap.
I wonder if it might be practical/useful to change building codes to require all new homes to have garages prewired for 220v. (Not necessarily to have a charger preinstalled but set up so one can be put in without any major rewiring.) Or is that even necessary?

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Old 21st June 2021, 06:13 PM   #1066
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I wonder if it might be practical/useful to change building codes to require all new homes to have garages prewired for 220v. (Not necessarily to have a charger preinstalled but set up so one can be put in without any major rewiring.) Or is that even necessary?

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A 220v outlet i n the garage would be ideal. I can buy an adapter for my car for a 220 outlet. Charge time is a little slower than my dedicatged charger, but not that much slower I understand.
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Old 21st June 2021, 06:19 PM   #1067
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Out of curiosity, what amperage, wattage, etc. are we talking about here, for a level 2 charger? I can get 240 volts easily enough, but I'd probably have to run a charger from my shop, whose 100 amp service is not under constant stress. The 100 amp at the house is minimal, resulting in things like the lights blinking when the pump or the furnace comes on.
The Tesla wall charger is 240v, can use up to 60amps, for 48amp output. Adds roughly 35-40 miles an hour when charging.
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Old 21st June 2021, 06:23 PM   #1068
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
The Tesla wall charger is 240v, can use up to 60amps, for 48amp output. Adds roughly 35-40 miles an hour when charging.
Yeah, that's just a wee bit hefty for a 100 amp service, I think, but might be possible when the shop is not being used. Pretty close to popping the main breaker, though.
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Old 21st June 2021, 06:30 PM   #1069
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Yeah, that's just a wee bit hefty for a 100 amp service, I think, but might be possible when the shop is not being used. Pretty close to popping the main breaker, though.
I've seen ads for automatic switches to link your car charger to your dryer line. Priority to the dryer, car charging when not using the dryer.
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Old 21st June 2021, 07:17 PM   #1070
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I wonder if it might be practical/useful to change building codes to require all new homes to have garages prewired for 220v. (Not necessarily to have a charger preinstalled but set up so one can be put in without any major rewiring.) Or is that even necessary?
Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
A 220v outlet i n the garage would be ideal.
It's already pretty much how things are anyway. Power is delivered to every Americanadian house's or business's breaker box at 240V (often misnamed as 220), and home breaker boxes tend to be in the garages. The only reason most of the building is then wired for 120 (often misnamed as 110) is that the voltage is split in half at the breaker box. The unsplit original can then also be run on separate cables from the breaker box to certain points for more demanding equipment (central AC, clothes drier, water heater, oven/stove).

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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
I've seen ads for automatic switches to link your car charger to your dryer line. Priority to the dryer, car charging when not using the dryer.
Since nobody would try both at the same time anyway (and the consequences of trying would only be a flipped switch even if they did), an auto-switching system isn't even need. All it would take is a socket adapter or extension chord with at least two sockets on it.

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Old 21st June 2021, 07:40 PM   #1071
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Quote:
I wonder if it might be practical/useful to change building codes to require all new homes to have garages prewired for 220v. (Not necessarily to have a charger preinstalled but set up so one can be put in without any major rewiring.) Or is that even necessary?
It's already pretty much how things are anyway. Power is delivered to every Americanadian house's or business's breaker box at 240V (often misnamed as 220), and home breaker boxes tend to be in the garages. The only reason most of the building is then wired for 120 (often misnamed as 110) is that the voltage is split in half at the breaker box. The unsplit original can then also be run on separate cables from the breaker box to certain points for more demanding equipment (central AC, clothes drier, water heater, oven/stove).
Maybe its just a local thing, but my home (and any home that I've been in) has their breaker box in the basement instead of the garage. So, there is a certain distance between the breaker box and where you would need to put a charging outlet.

And yes, I knew that we had 220/240 volts available to the home (with the higher voltage dedicated to things like clothes dryers, AC, and the remaining outlets knocked down to 110/120.) However, I am just not sure how difficult it would be to adjust a garage outlet (especially one far from the circuit breaker, as in my home) to deliver 220/240 if it wasn't designed for that from the start.
Quote:
Quote:
I've seen ads for automatic switches to link your car charger to your dryer line. Priority to the dryer, car charging when not using the dryer.
Since nobody would try both at the same time anyway...
Umm... why not? People would likely want to plug their cars in when they first get home (so they don't forget), and they may want to do laundry in the evenings. (That's when I generally do it myself.)

It would seem to me that it could end up being rather common to run both at the same time.
Quote:
(and the consequences of trying would only be a flipped switch even if they did)
Personally, I would find that... extremely annoying. I suspect in my case I would end up with a lot of dead car batteries and wet laundry, since I suspect I would probably forget to flip the switch on my car after the laundry was done.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 05:22 AM   #1072
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I like the idea of the building code requiring a 50A/240V feed to any garage or carport. It would likely be a lot cheaper to do it then than to add it in later, which can cost upwards of $1,000.

The 50A rating is important to get the fastest AC charging. We got very lucky, in that we have 240v feeding a hangar door, very convenient to where we park our PHEV. But it’s only rated to 30A, limiting what it could supply to a Level 2 charger. As I said earlier, the supplied EVSE cable for the Clarity can handle 240V, but only at 16A. I had already rewired the hangar door feed to a “generator” receptacle, so that in power outages I can unplug it and plug it into a 240V generator to get the door open. It was easy to make an adapter to supply that 240v to our EVSE cable for faster charging. It serves as a kind of a “switch” in that I must choose which is plugged in at any given time. Most of the time we just plug into an outdoor 120V for overnight charging and always have a full charge in the morning regardless.

Here’s the setup, charging the Clarity. The unplugged hangar door plug is sitting above the ON/OFF switch.



At our second house we have 50A/240V running to an RV pedestal, and I made a similar adapter to use that to charge. It is, however, less convenient being just over 100’ from the house. The bonus is if we ponied up for a true Level 2 EVSE we could better take advantage of the 50A available. We’ve never bothered, since the car transitions so smoothly to a hybrid and there’s not a huge difference in the price of electricity or gas to propel the vehicle.

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Old 22nd June 2021, 05:30 AM   #1073
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
…240V (often misnamed as 220)…
What is the deal there? And why is a regular outlet sometimes called 110V or 120V?

To add to the confusion, our garage door feed is labeled 230V.

Of course, when measuring any of these you very often get an in between reading, which I guess may be partially dependent on the length and gauge of the wire run from the main panel. I’m still not sure which voltage to refer to in order to be technically correct. Which is the best kind of correct!

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Old 22nd June 2021, 07:05 AM   #1074
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
What is the deal there? And why is a regular outlet sometimes called 110V or 120V?
From what I understand, the standard voltage in North America used to be 100V, but it was eventually changed to 110v (in order to make light bulbs brighter). It was later increased to 120v.

The reason people still refer to it as 110v is a combination of:

- The historical (i.e. it was once called 110 so it got stuck in some people's memories)

- It somehow "sounds" better

- The actual voltage can vary, but it is often somewhere between 110 and 120. So if the actual voltage is 115v, then 110 is just as 'right' as 120. (Technically it can go higher than 120, but I think being lower is more common.)
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Old 22nd June 2021, 07:07 AM   #1075
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
I've seen ads for automatic switches to link your car charger to your dryer line. Priority to the dryer, car charging when not using the dryer.
A good plan, and there's no real problem putting in another 240 volt outlet, but the dryer line is only 30 amps. Not enough to exploit the full potential of the charger without heating up the wires and risking burning down the house.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 07:59 AM   #1076
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
What is the deal there? And why is a regular outlet sometimes called 110V or 120V?

To add to the confusion, our garage door feed is labeled 230V.

Of course, when measuring any of these you very often get an in between reading, which I guess may be partially dependent on the length and gauge of the wire run from the main panel. Iím still not sure which voltage to refer to in order to be technically correct. Which is the best kind of correct!
There are 2 common ways to run power into a building, split phase usually 240V that is commonly used for houses. Commercial buildings however frequently bring in all 3 phases from the power distribution system because it allows for much higher power draws with lower current requirements. In both cases you can get different voltages depending on how you connect them.

In the split phase case you have 2 line voltages and a neutral (neutral is not ground) coming from a center tapped transformer. Nominally you get 120V between each line and the neutral and 240V between the 2 line voltages. So in normal house you typically see 120V and 240V

In the 3 phase is more complicated and you can generate a more voltages depending on how you connect it, but the important thing to remember is that when you connect 2 poles you get it gives SQRT(3) * the voltage you would get going from 1 pole to neutral.

Because 120V is such a common requirement you will have a line-neutral connection that nominally produces 120V. This means you have a corresponding line-line connection that is 207V or ~210V

So depending on the setting you will commonly see nominal voltages of:
120V
210V
240V

There are also a couple reason why the actual numbers can be a little below these so a 120V outlet usually is in the 110-120 range. IMO these numbers are all similar looking so they become easy to mix up and 220 just sort of comes out even though it's not actually in the list.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 08:40 AM   #1077
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Thanks for the explanation.

Here’s that 230V reference:



My hangar door was fed by 3 wires: 2 hots and ground. The generator receptacle has a slot for a neutral, not needed for the door or EVSE cable:

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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:28 AM   #1078
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I would avoid charging an EV with 120 volts. https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...arging-losses/

Quote:
Our long-term 2019 Tesla Model 3 Long Range Dual Motor test car is currently averaging 95 percent efficiency from a Level 2 Tesla 240-volt wall connector. Staffers charging at home using a typical 120-volt wall outlet saw efficiency of, at best, 85 percent, and it dropped to as little as 60 percent in very cold weather, when charging the battery requires expending significant energy to keep it warm.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:35 AM   #1079
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I would avoid charging an EV with 120 volts. https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...arging-losses/



Ranb
Yup. 120v charging is slow and inefficient. I only do so when weíre at the in-laws since they donít have an accessible 240v outlet.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:38 AM   #1080
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I rent an apartment in a 350-apartment complex in Arizona. Each apartment is assigned one covered parking space, none of which have electric power available, and none of which is within 30 feet (9 meters) of a building. There are other non-covered, non-assigned spaces.

At an average of 1.5 cars per apartment, which I think is a perfectly reasonable assumption, 525 cars use this parking. I can't imagine how or why the apartment-complex management would install charging spaces for even half the covered parking spaces, let alone for the others.
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