Electric universe theories here.

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Parker warned you. So DID Alvfen.


Your cartoonish version of the solar wind is dead. Do you think tusenfem may change his mind in the SOLAR WIND?

Or at least drop his scale down the the electron gyro radi…

@steenkh


Apparently all about scale.

Hope you understand, it’s a math thing. Tusenfem seems like he had the same idea as jd116 at one stage and I’d put a couple bob on, you think the same.

Ergo...

Quote:

I don't think so, because as far as I know the solar wind is neutral, which would mean equal amounts of positive and negative moving at the same speed, ergo no current

tusenfem

Just ask him.

Then you can ask, like I did, what are we going to call these pervasive electric currents in the turbulent solar wind?

Birkeland currents was agreed, just between us.

Mainstream has multiple names for plasma instabilities being driven via electric currents.

Pretty sure we can do a lot of this down here on Earth, in a lab...oh wait

How far does a comets tail extend (cometary Birkeland currents)

As a historical tidbit, the solar wind was discovered because of comets. Imagine if Parker and ol mate Biermann way back in the ‘50’s, along with jd116 apparently, had known what we know now.

So, steenkh, all these ELECTRIC CURRENTS should have a common name.

Why not call em after Birkeland?

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

@steenkh


Apparently all about scale.

Hope you understand, it’s a math thing. Tusenfem seems like he had the same idea as jd116 at one stage and I’d put a couple bob on, you think the same.

Ergo... tusenfem

Just ask him.

Then you can ask, like I did, what are we going to call these pervasive electric currents in the turbulent solar wind?

Birkeland currents was agreed, just between us.

Mainstream has multiple names for plasma instabilities being driven via electric currents.

Pretty sure we can do a lot of this down here on Earth, in a lab...oh wait

How far does a comets tail extend (cometary Birkeland currents)

As a historical tidbit, the solar wind was discovered because of comets. Imagine if Parker and ol mate Biermann way back in the ‘50’s, along with jd116 apparently, had known what we know now.

So, steenkh, all these ELECTRIC CURRENTS should have a common name.

Why not call em after Birkeland?

Because there are no Birkeland currents in the solar wind. The solar wind is quasi-neutral, as Alfven told you. And which you keep chickening out of addressing. You already think you know more than Tusenfem, despite being clueless about even basic plasma physics, are you now claiming to know more than Alfven? Wouldn't surprise me.
Your cult has no plasma physicists. It has nobody with a clue about plasma physics. It has no peer-reviewed papers on plasma physics. It is as relevant to plasma physics as flat earth is to geology.
That is the level that you are at.

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

How far does a comets tail extend (cometary Birkeland currents)

And who is the idiot claiming that cometary tails are Birkeland currents? Nobody qualified in plasma physics, I'd warrant.

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by steenkh

Where does he mention Birkeland currents?

Quote:

This difficulty is avoided if the emitted agent is assumed to consist of the equal amount of positive and negative particles.

Alfven before we had the Parker solar probe and before we mentioned the solar wind.

How’s a plasma, the solar plasma do that. Heat n gravity.

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

How far does a comets tail extend (cometary Birkeland currents)

And who is the lame brain claiming that cometary tails are Birkeland currents?

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Alfven before we had the Parker solar probe and before we mentioned the solar wind.

How’s a plasma, the solar plasma do that. Heat n gravity.

Is a lie. Show where Alfven claimed Birkeland currents exist in the solar wind. You are making **** up again to hide your embarrassment about being totally ignorant about all of physics.

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

How’s a plasma, the solar plasma do that. Heat n gravity.

It has already been explained to you countless times, in terms a child could understand. Not our fault that you are incapable of understanding basic physics.

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Why not call em after Birkeland?

Jesus, the stupid hurts!

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by jonesdave116

And who is the lame brain claiming that cometary tails are Birkeland currents?

Some dude…

Quote:

Also, large spikes were observed in the MAG data, which are interpreted as flux ropes created by reconnection of the CME magnetic field and that draped around the nucleus. In Fig. 9BB an example of such a structure is shown in minimum variance coordinates [Sonnerup and Scheible, 1998], which has the classical characteristics of a flux rope, which means that there is a strong current flowing along the centre of the tube.

I was under the impression we had a gentleman’s agreement, at this time, to call them BIRKELAND CURRENTS.

Important here

Quote:

Some plasma observations during three events: a sudden reduction of the piled-up magnetic field and an increase of energetic electrons, can be interpreted as the comet’s ionospheric response to tail disconnection events driven by the CIR.

Currents in cometary comae.

Solar wind interaction with comet 67P: Impacts of corotating interaction regions

Quote:

During all events, the fluxes of suprathermal (∼10–100 eV) electrons increase significantly, suggesting that the heating mechanism of these electrons is coupled to the solar wind energy input.

Birkeland currents.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Sol88

What’s your point? If you have one.

Maybe it's time you answered your own question.

[Sol88]

ULYSSES CATCHES ANOTHER COMET BY THE TAIL

Quote:

The ability of CMEs to carry cometary ions far from their radial paths significantly increases the chance of detecting these ions", said Prof. George Gloeckler, Principal Investigator of the Solar Wind Ion Composition Spectrometer (SWICS) experiment on Ulysses that made the discovery. Serendipitous encounters with comet tails cannot replace dedicated missions like ESA's Rosetta. Even so, they are helping scientists to unravel the mysteries of these icy visitors to the inner solar system.

Imagine if they could see the electrons. The return current to the rocky body discharging in the solar “wind”.

Via BIRKELAND CURRENTS.

just saying.

[Sol88]

Dup

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Some dude…



I was under the impression we had a gentleman’s agreement, at this time, to call them BIRKELAND CURRENTS.

Important here Currents in cometary comae.

Solar wind interaction with comet 67P: Impacts of corotating interaction regions




Birkeland currents.

Not even close. Now show me where anyone is suggesting Birkeland currents in the scientific literature anywhere outside of magnetospheres.

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

ULYSSES CATCHES ANOTHER COMET BY THE TAIL



Imagine if they could see the electrons. The return current to the rocky body discharging in the solar “wind”.

Via BIRKELAND CURRENTS.

just saying.

Not Birkeland currents, and nobody with a clue is claiming that they are. So, we are just back to you making **** up again. As usual.

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

The return current to the rocky body discharging in the solar “wind”.

And more made up ****. No rock, no discharges. Don't you ever get sick of lying?

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

ULYSSES CATCHES ANOTHER COMET BY THE TAIL



Imagine if they could see the electrons. The return current to the rocky body discharging in the solar “wind”.

Via BIRKELAND CURRENTS.

just saying.

So, let me try to get my head round this latest bout of ignorance ...........
you think because they are reporting ion detections from the Ulysses SWICS ion detector, that there are only ions in the ion tail? Surely not even you can be...... actually, yes, you probably could!

Guess what? The ICE spacecraft flew through the tail of comet Giacobini-Zinner, and only reported the electron detections! Did that mean that there were no ions present? Uhhhh, nope.

The electrons in a cometary tail are heading away from the comet in the same direction as the ions. In ~ equal number. They are not returning to the comet for unstated, impossible reasons.

[Sol88]

When we fly a probe thru Birkeland currents we detect an increase in the electron current.

[steenkh]

Originally Posted by Sol88

@steenkh


Apparently all about scale.

Hope you understand, it’s a math thing. Tusenfem seems like he had the same idea as jd116 at one stage and I’d put a couple bob on, you think the same.

Ergo... tusenfem

Just ask him.

Then you can ask, like I did, what are we going to call these pervasive electric currents in the turbulent solar wind?

Birkeland currents was agreed, just between us.

Mainstream has multiple names for plasma instabilities being driven via electric currents.

Pretty sure we can do a lot of this down here on Earth, in a lab...oh wait

How far does a comets tail extend (cometary Birkeland currents)

As a historical tidbit, the solar wind was discovered because of comets. Imagine if Parker and ol mate Biermann way back in the ‘50’s, along with jd116 apparently, had known what we know now.

So, steenkh, all these ELECTRIC CURRENTS should have a common name.

Why not call em after Birkeland?

I thought Birkeland currents was the name of a specific phenomenon, but you seem to want to apply it to anything with currents?

[Sol88]

Asked a plasma expert, called em Birkeland currents.


Basically electric currents everywhere we’ve bothered to look.

What would you call them?

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

When we fly a probe thru Birkeland currents we detect an increase in the electron current.

Where have we flown through Birkeland currents? Who is claiming this? Name of the paper where they specifically say they have flown through a Birkeland current? Hint: no such papers exist. Unless we have flown through them in a magnetosphere.
Cometary tails? Errrr, nope. Just like in the magnetotail, that is a cross-tail current. Birkeland currents are field-aligned. Or didn't you know that?
Nobody is claiming that Birkeland currents exist in the solar wind. The solar wind is not a current. End of story.

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Asked a plasma expert, called em Birkeland currents.


Basically electric currents everywhere we’ve bothered to look.

What would you call them?

Gibberish. The solar wind is quasi-neutral everywhere we've looked. As it must be. As Alfven told you long before your cult existed. Perhaps you should start listening to people who understand the relevant physics, rather than clueless, Dunning-Kruger afflicted engineers, yes?

[Sol88]

Sorry, you still call them magnetic flux tubes…Birkeland currents, field aligned and force free!

Quote:

Gibberish. The solar wind is quasi-neutral everywhere we've looked.

Look harder champ, oh and bring your scale down to the electron.

Your delusion is a bust.

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Sorry, you still call them magnetic flux tubes…Birkeland currents, field aligned and force free!






Look harder champ, oh and bring your scale down to the electron.

Your delusion is a bust.

You haven't got a clue what you are talking about, so stop pretending that you do. You are only making yourself look even sillier. If that is possible. Nobody with a clue thinks flux tubes are Birkeland currents.
The only eejit making that claim is a clueless EE on youtube. Who has not got a grasp of even basic plasma physics.

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Look harder champ, oh and bring your scale down to the electron.

I mean, what does that rubbish even mean? Bring what down? To what? The electron gyroradius? That is bloody huge, bigger than the Debye length. You are out of your depth. Just like Scott.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Yup, just need a big battery now.

No, besides a power source you actually have to show the requisite power going from source to load. You've got nether.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Sol88

In a collisionless plasma? I’ll give you they are “lossy” but they don’t seem to dissipate easily.

In fact some are quite long.

AGN Jets are big lossy coaxial cables. Apparently the current can also return nested inside the cables.

Whoda thunkit?

Apparently, this is in Scotts force free electric current model.

Also seems the ELECTRONS are doing the heavy lifting. Problem is you’ve been looking at the ion/s (MHD).

Missed the memo?

Nope, the "memo" you quoted was explicitly about loses not lifting, heavy or otherwise. Basically eddy currents slowing down the solar wind.

Originally Posted by Sol88

So....ummmm...electrons and ions going both ways in a plasma cable?

No, such thing as a plasma cable and in both solar wind and the jets noted before both electrons and ions are leaving in bulk.

Originally Posted by Sol88

When sail thru the turbulent plasma full of force free electric currents (solar wind) and you sample it on the whole.

Quasi neutral.

But the dissipation is still pretty minimal in these plasma power cables/wires or whatever helps you visualise bloody big extension cords in space.

So being minimal and a dissipation of energy means they can't power your electric sun. Nor does fixating on such turbulent loses get you "bloody big extension cords in space." visually or otherwise. However, it does tend to show that you know such powerful currents needed for an and electric sun just ain't there if all you all can come up with is turbulent losses and eddy currents. Heck, your "bloody big extension cords in space." would have to be hundreds, thousands, perhaps even millions and billions of times that. making them not only impossible to miss but dominating just about everything in the solar system.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Fixated on the return part.

And their location in relation to the observed ion currents.

"the return part" of what? "observed ion currents" from what to what?

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Sol88

What’s up with forum? Keeps trying to double post...weird.

Don't use the quick reply box. It tends to double post.

[jonesdave116]

So to summarise;

Problems with the 'Electric Sun';

(Apart from being scientifically impossible gibberish, dreamed up by a crackpot Velikovskian civil engineer, that is!)

No electrons can drift in past a magnetic field that is known to be heading out in the opposite direction at ~ 400 km/s.

The solar wind, contra Scott, cannot be a net current, as per Alfven, and ~ six decades of measurements.

If electrons were impossibly drifting in, they would be carrying their own magnetic field. As the EUists keep telling us, currents = magnetic fields. So, Scott has only ions heading out in what he calls a current, which much have its own magnetic field, n'est-ce pas? What happens when the two meet? Who wins? A stagnation zone somewhere in or on the border of the heliosphere? Not much use having all the electrons out there, is it?

Why do we even need an impossible, unpublished woo 'model' for the Sun, when the standard model works just fine? As the neutrino data tells us.

How are the EUists explaining those neutrinos? Fusion on the surface! Impossible. As previously noted, it is neither hot enough nor dense enough for fusion on the surface. And if, by some miracle, it were to happen, it would be blindingly obvious as gamma ray line emission. Which isn't there. Of course, we would never detect the gamma, because we would never have evolved. It would take ET astrophysicists to notice it. However, if their stars work the same way as the EUists want ours to work, they would not have evolved either.

Anode tufts on the 'surface'! No, those are 'granulations'. The top of convection cells. At ~ 5800 K. ~ 99.99% neutral gas. I think you'll fid that anode tufts do not happen in neutral gas.

Anyone want to try to rescue this flat earth level woo?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by jonesdave116

So to summarise;

Problems with the 'Electric Sun';

(Apart from being scientifically impossible gibberish, dreamed up by a crackpot Velikovskian civil engineer, that is!)

No electrons can drift in past a magnetic field that is known to be heading out in the opposite direction at ~ 400 km/s.

The solar wind, contra Scott, cannot be a net current, as per Alfven, and ~ six decades of measurements.

If electrons were impossibly drifting in, they would be carrying their own magnetic field. As the EUists keep telling us, currents = magnetic fields. So, Scott has only ions heading out in what he calls a current, which much have its own magnetic field, n'est-ce pas? What happens when the two meet? Who wins? A stagnation zone somewhere in or on the border of the heliosphere? Not much use having all the electrons out there, is it?

Why do we even need an impossible, unpublished woo 'model' for the Sun, when the standard model works just fine? As the neutrino data tells us.

How are the EUists explaining those neutrinos? Fusion on the surface! Impossible. As previously noted, it is neither hot enough nor dense enough for fusion on the surface. And if, by some miracle, it were to happen, it would be blindingly obvious as gamma ray line emission. Which isn't there. Of course, we would never detect the gamma, because we would never have evolved. It would take ET astrophysicists to notice it. However, if their stars work the same way as the EUists want ours to work, they would not have evolved either.

Anode tufts on the 'surface'! No, those are 'granulations'. The top of convection cells. At ~ 5800 K. ~ 99.99% neutral gas. I think you'll fid that anode tufts do not happen in neutral gas.

Anyone want to try to rescue this flat earth level woo?

Thing is, flat earth ideas actually make more sense: It rejects science wholesale and depicts a cosmology that depends on magic. ... Fair enough, magic can supposedly solve all problems.

EU, on the other hand, only rejects seemingly arbitrarily portions of science, and uses other arbitrary portions to construct claims that cannot be true even given whatever science they do accept.

Hans

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by The Man

Nope, the "memo" you quoted was explicitly about loses not lifting, heavy or otherwise. Basically eddy currents slowing down the solar wind.



No, such thing as a plasma cable and in both solar wind and the jets noted before both electrons and ions are leaving in bulk.



So being minimal and a dissipation of energy means they can't power your electric sun. Nor does fixating on such turbulent loses get you "bloody big extension cords in space." visually or otherwise. However, it does tend to show that you know such powerful currents needed for an and electric sun just ain't there if all you all can come up with is turbulent losses and eddy currents. Heck, your "bloody big extension cords in space." would have to be hundreds, thousands, perhaps even millions and billions of times that. making them not only impossible to miss but dominating just about everything in the solar system.

Electron-to-ion Bulk Speed Ratio as a Parameter Reflecting the Occurrence of Strong Electron-dominated Current Sheets in the Solar Wind

Quote:

Abstract

Current sheets (CSs) are preferred sites of magnetic reconnection and energy dissipation in astrophysical plasmas. Electric currents in them may be carried by both electrons and ions. In our prior theoretical studies of the CS formation in turbulent plasmas, we utilized fully kinetic and hybrid code simulations with ions considered as particles and electrons—as a massless fluid.

We found that electron-dominated CSs in which electrons become the main carriers of the electric current and contributors to energy dissipation may form inside or nearby ion-dominated CSs.

These structures represent a distinguished type of CSs and should not be mixed up with so-called electron-scale CSs. Current simulations show that such CSs are characterized by the electron-to-ion bulk speed ratio (ue/ui) increases that can be seen at ion scales according to theoretical predictions and high-resolution observations from the Magnetospheric Multiscale mission.

Therefore, applying the ue/ui parameter to the solar wind data may allow locating the strongest electron-dominated CSs with an ordinary spacecraft resolution of 1−3 s.

This study shows that, indeed, electron-dominated CSs observed during a period of quiet solar wind conditions at 1 au impact the surrounding plasma, which may be reflected in sharp changes of ue/ui.

Electron-dominated CSs are found to be localized in the vicinity of ion-dominated CSs identified via changes in the magnetic field and plasma parameters, displaying the same clustering.

We conclude that ue/ui may be used as one of the key parameters for statistical studies of CSs in the solar wind and analyzing the role of electrons in them.

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Sol88

Electron-to-ion Bulk Speed Ratio as a Parameter Reflecting the Occurrence of Strong Electron-dominated Current Sheets in the Solar Wind

I've read it, have you? Again "energy dissipation in astrophysical plasmas". That's the plasma losing energy. Again it is small scale turbulence that dissipates the magnetic energy and "characterized by the electron-to-ion bulk speed ratio (ue/ui) increases". Not large scale energy transfer from who knows where. In that turbulence the net bulk speed of the electrons is greater than that of the Ions with the paper even noting that...

Quote:

"The second problem is that a resolution of measurements of the magnetic field in the solar wind is usually about 1 s, which corresponds to one to two proton gyroradii. This is satisfactory for identifying ordinary ion-scale CSs, but this makes impossible direct observations of much thinner electron-scale CSs."

Previously noting...

Quote:

"Such CSs have been observed in the course of new spacecraft missions such as MAVEN in the Martian magnetotail (Grigorenko et al. 2019). Recent studies confirm the existence of STCSs in the terrestrial magnetotail (Leonenko et al. 2021). A half-thickness of STCSs is about a few or less electron gyroradii; therefore, these current layers can be considered as electron-dominated very thin CSs."

So a couple of proton gyroradii (50 to 100 km) or a few or less electron gyroradii (<42 km). Comparatively small scale to just 1 AU (149,600,000 km). [just quick references for proton and electron gyroradii]. Yet, all still just power leaving the sun. It's like trying to claim your toaster is powered by not even the heat applied to the bread but specifically the heat it loses that never reaches the bread.

[Sol88]

So not really a “wind” is it now.

The plasma “expert”, tusenfem, says the “wind” is…

Quote:

I don't think so, because as far as I know the solar wind is neutral, which would mean equal amounts of positive and negative moving at the same speed, ergo no current

tusenfem.

Someone’s incorrect.


This paper also indicates seperated charges….electron dominated or ion dominated.

[Sol88]

This obviously sets up an electric field

Quote:

The angular dependence of the measured electron energy spectrum and the resulting accelerated energies, supported by particle-in-cell simulations, indicate that the mechanism of direct electric field acceleration by the out-of-plane reconnection electric field is at work. Scaled energies using this mechanism show direct relevance to astrophysical observations.

reconnection.

[Sol88]

Quote:

For a simple single switchback, the model predicts either a single or a double-humped structure; the former corresponding to PSP observing either the main body or the flanks of the switchback. The clustering of switchbacks and their sometimes complicated structure may be due to the formation of multiple closely spaced switchbacks created by interchange reconnection with numerous open and loop magnetic field lines over a short period. We show that their evolution yields a complex, aggregated group of switchbacks that includes "sheaths" with large-amplitude radial magnetic field and velocity fluctuations.

The Origin of Switchbacks in the Solar Corona: Linear Theory

Sheaths?

Clustered Birkeland currents…

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

So not really a “wind” is it now.

The plasma “expert”, tusenfem, says the “wind” is… tusenfem.

Someone’s incorrect.


This paper also indicates seperated charges….electron dominated or ion dominated.

The only one incorrect is you. The solar wind is not a current. Alfven told you why that must be so. Your problem is that you don't know enough to understand what you are reading. Nobody sane thinks the solar wind can be a net current.

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

The Origin of Switchbacks in the Solar Corona: Linear Theory

Sheaths?

Clustered Birkeland currents…

Nothing like Birkeland currents. Which is why nobody with a clue is claiming that they are.
When is someone in your cult actually going to learn enough plasma physics to be able to have a meaningful conversation about it?
Instead of wasting ~$5m on the transparent safire scam, how many of their acolytes could have been sponsored to attain at least an undergraduate degree in the subject?

[The Man]

Originally Posted by Sol88

So not really a “wind” is it now.

Sure it is, and much like a wind it has turbulences. While siad wind is across your whole yard, do you fret about every turbulence at each blade of grass?

Originally Posted by Sol88

The plasma “expert”, tusenfem, says the “wind” is… tusenfem.

Someone’s incorrect.

Not at all, and even "The plasma “expert”, tusenfem" has told you this, just recently in fact, overall neutral (particularly quasi-neutral) doesn't mean everywhere entirely neutral. A wind blowing south east is still going to have all kinds of turbulences to varying degrees but air is still moving south east in bulk.

Originally Posted by Sol88

This paper also indicates seperated charges….electron dominated or ion dominated.

Sure the paper "indicates seperated charges….electron dominated or ion dominated". What it doesn't indicate is energy moving to the sun to power it.

[jonesdave116]

Originally Posted by Sol88

The Origin of Switchbacks in the Solar Corona: Linear Theory

Sheaths?

Clustered Birkeland currents…

How does this resemble a Birkeland current?

image_2023-01-31_231616050.jpg

Hint: it doesn't.

The Origin of Switchbacks in the Solar Corona: Linear Theory
Zank, G. P. et al (2020)
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/1...38-4357/abb828

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by The Man

Sure it is, and much like a wind it has turbulences. While siad wind is across your whole yard, do you fret about every turbulence at each blade of grass?



Not at all, and even "The plasma “expert”, tusenfem" has told you this, just recently in fact, overall neutral (particularly quasi-neutral) doesn't mean everywhere entirely neutral. A wind blowing south east is still going to have all kinds of turbulences to varying degrees but air is still moving south east in bulk.




Sure the paper "indicates seperated charges….electron dominated or ion dominated". What it doesn't indicate is energy moving to the sun to power it.

Baby steps, baby steps.

We are now making head way.

There are electric currents embedded within the "wind", as per the STRONG CURRENT SHEETS (SCS)

Quote:

This result is in good agreement with observations of SCSs at ∼1 au.
The analysis of fine structure of different SCSs, including the HCS, shows that an SCS represents a narrow current layer (with a thickness of∼10^4 km) embedded into a wider region of about 10^5 km, independently of the SCS origin.

Therefore, multi-scale structuring is very likely an intrinsic feature of SCSs in the solar wind.

EVIDENCE FOR QUASI-ADIABATIC MOTION OF CHARGED PARTICLES IN STRONG CURRENT SHEETS IN THE SOLAR WIND