Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Nessie

My gym has a separate room with showers and each shower has curtains separating it from the next.

Maybe the solution is in design. If everywhere has cubicles for changing and toilets (even urinals) then the issues pretty much end.

No they don't. We've been over this countless times in this thread and I'm tired typing it out.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Is this the doctrinaire adherence to a particular legal definition?

Because my concept of rape extends far beyond mere PIV coercion.

In my jurisdiction rape requires a penis. Anything else is assault by penetration.

True, having had their dick cut off doesn't stop them doing that. So one more reason they shouldn't be in women's prisons.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

It's not only about women "seeing anything". It's about what the male can see. Remember the response of the girls who were being forced to share a changing room with a trans-identified boy to the news that the boy (who had been walking around naked) had been asked to put a towel round his waist? The girls said, "can he be asked to put the towel round his eyes?"

It's the presence of a male body in a female-only intimate space. There is absolutely no justification for compelling women to tolerate this. It goes against every instinct of modesty and privacy. They can see that the person is male, and that's enough.

I would argue that situation is wrong, because it involves people being forced into something they do not want to do. The premises may decide it is OK for the boy to change with the girls, but girls should be allowed to decide and they can vote with their feet and refuse to change when he is changing. So, he changes alone and the girls wait, or vice versa.

I would also argue that anyone who then calls the girls transphobic are wrong, because no one should be forced to accept an invasion of their privacy.

If it was a cafe with a shared toilet and the premises refused to serve a trans person, or a group of girls refused to be on the premises with the trans, then they would be transphobic, because they are not being affected by the trans person in any meaningful way.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

No they don't. We've been over this countless times in this thread and I'm tired typing it out.

I take it you never use cafes with a shared toilet, or swimming pools with a cubical changing area?

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

That's because you are pontificating as if it's you who gets to decide. A man has entered to give us his manly opinion, and surprise surprise, he is in favour of men getting to be in women's changing rooms even if the women object.

You're going to get some pushback with that.

I was clear that a trans woman can only enter with the permission of the premises and if women agree and commented on some of the practical ways that would happen.

I acknowledge there are times where there may be conflict, such as the women are already changing and the trans woman arrives. Maybe staff need to advise the women already there are check if it is OK and maybe the trans woman has to wait. But, I would argue that only really applies with communal spaces. If everywhere has cubicles, for changing and showering, then it is less of an issue.

[Rolfe]

I really don't think men should be pontificating on what is and isn't an issue for women.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I really don't think men should be pontificating on what is and isn't an issue for women.

It is an issue that also affects men, just less so and in different ways to women.

I would be OK with a transwoman, in the same changing room as me, so long as they observe normal decorum. I would not be happy with a transman, or indeed a man, who parades about naked. But that is a typically Scottish attitude. I accept, go elsewhere and nudity is more normal. I did that in Iceland and was relieved it was like a changing room in Scotland, but that may because the place was full of tourists. If it was a locals place, maybe they would have paraded about naked and I would have to tolerate it, or not go.

The first time I used mixed changing was the swimming pool, leisure centre in Hawick. There were big warning signs and lots of instructions. I hated it, but, over the years, as more and more places have mixed changing, I got used to it.

It is now normal to queue for a toilet in a cafe, with women. I like that, because I find shared toilets are cleaner than men only.

I think the main difference is that whilst I would feel as uncomfortable as a woman would in a similar situation, I would never feel as threatened as a woman would.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Nessie

My gym has a separate room with showers and each shower has curtains separating it from the next.

Maybe the solution is in design. If everywhere has cubicles for changing and toilets (even urinals) then the issues pretty much end.

Individual changing stalls, bathrooms and showers are great. But they are also expensive, and many existing facilities cannot afford to install them. This isn't a general solution to the problem, not even close.

[Rolfe]

And they are not at all great for women, for the several reasons we've laid out earlier.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Point of information. Yes they can. Read up about counter-tenors.

I just came across Hugh Cutting, while watching a Christmas concert. Wow. That voice! My new favourite. Eat your heart out, Jochen Kowalski.

I'm failing to see the connection here. That some males have high natural ranges, or use falsetto ranges while singing, doesn't seem to contradict my claim that a male's natural pitch doesn't rise with the application of estrogen.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I don't think for one second they should be in a woman's prison. Are we to sacrifice the mental health of all the imprisoned women (and possibly the female staff) for the sake of the feelz of a couple of men? We don't relocate pretty men, or gay men, or mentally handicapped men to women's prisons on the basis that they might be picked on.

A separate unit for transwomen might be a solution though. I have no interest in insisting they go to a men's prison.

I'd be supportive of a separate wing for inmates at high risk, regardless of their gender identity. As you say, some inmates with disabilities, or in particular circumstances, might very well be at higher risk of inmate-on-inmate violence. Some alternative solution for them - all of them - seems like it should be a reasonable thing to do.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

No. Stop "being kind". Stop being prepared to agree to a "compromise" that puts women in distress without thinking it through.

I think a compromise might be that if any of these poor boys who were put on puberty blockers and castrated without going through puberty were to commit an imprisonable offence, he might be acceptable in a women's prison. A man who has been through puberty? Absolutely not. Just think about it for a moment.

I hear you. And I get where you're coming from. But it hearkens back to the before times.

If it weren't for self-id and the current trans lobby that will NOT accept anything short of full capitulation... that would be a case-by-case concession I might be willing to make.

The problem is that "If" statement. And I don't see that going away any time soon. Which means that in practice, those very few who are fully castrated and surgically altered get to stay in the male prison, or be housed in some third alternative location.

I completely understand your frustration and where you're coming from. I just had a nice long vacation from the internet, so all of my patience is topped off again! Don't worry, it won't last long. I'm already crumbling. I'm already getting pretty worn out of people calling me names, calling me a homophobe, and hysterical, and otherwise resorting to ad-homs because I find drag queens to be extremely offensive, to present caricatured stereotypes of females that are akin to blackface, and that drag queen story hour seems to be ripe grounds for pedophiles to abuse.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

I'm failing to see the connection here. That some males have high natural ranges, or use falsetto ranges while singing, doesn't seem to contradict my claim that a male's natural pitch doesn't rise with the application of estrogen.

The falsetto range is natural, and men can learn to use it. Many transwomen train themselves to do this with their speaking voice. So in practice, a transwoman's voice can rise in pitch. But it's a minor point.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

If it weren't for self-id and the current trans lobby that will NOT accept anything short of full capitulation... that would be a case-by-case concession I might be willing to make.

I don't think it's a concession anyone should be willing to make, now or in the before times. Male puberty is irreversible. Removing the external genitalia of a man doesn't change his appearance while clothed one tiny little bit. He still has the height, the skeletal and muscle structure, the huge hands and feet, the beard growth and the voice he had before.

Many women in prison have been abused by men and have fragile mental health. I do not think it is fair to them to allow any man into their space. Certainly not a man who has committed an imprisonable offence. Not even if we assure them he has been castrated. (They will most certainly not want to check for themselves.)

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Nessie

All the swimming pool/gym changing rooms I have used, involve the men facing away from each other and keeping covered over, so it is perfectly possible to not see anything. It is different for sports, where a team change together, but know each other, but still, no one parades around naked.

In practical terms, having a trans person in a changing room does not mean seeing anything. If you object to ther mere presence of someone means you must be scanning the whole changing area, to check who is there.

So, yeah, that's NOT the norm in female changing rooms. While we don't "parade", most of us are comfortable enough around other females that we don't go to great lengths to avoid seeing or being seen. We've been known to have full conversations while nude with other females, including discussions about our breast pain during PMS, chapped nipples while breastfeeding, cramps and backaches from our periods, and even the occasional comment on someone's lovely undergarments.

This is a bit of an aside, but I truly wish that males would stop assuming that the male experience and the male dynamic are the "norms" that everyone else follows. Males so seldom seem to understand how very different female interactions and dynamics are.

As an additional point with respect to changing rooms... Do you genuinely think that a heterosexual male surrounded by naked females will adhere to your "how males be around other males" way of behaving and will NOT take the opportunity to look at all the boobs and butts?

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

That's because you are pontificating as if it's you who gets to decide. A man has entered to give us his manly opinion, and surprise surprise, he is in favour of men getting to be in women's changing rooms even if the women object.

You're going to get some pushback with that.

[Rolfe]

That's the one.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Nessie

I would argue that situation is wrong, because it involves people being forced into something they do not want to do. The premises may decide it is OK for the boy to change with the girls, but girls should be allowed to decide and they can vote with their feet and refuse to change when he is changing. So, he changes alone and the girls wait, or vice versa.

And that's what happened, IIRC.

The male got to use the large multi-use changing room, because it was considered their *right* to do so... and the very many females who objected to a male presence in their female changing room all ended up either taking turns in the staff changing room or did not change and shower at all.

Many females were inconvenienced, and lost access to their female-only space... in order to protect the feelings of one male who really, really, really wanted to be in there.

Over and over again, we see the feels of a very few males taking precedence in policy over the safety, dignity, and rights of many females.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Nessie

I was clear that a trans woman can only enter with the permission of the premises and if women agree and commented on some of the practical ways that would happen.

I acknowledge there are times where there may be conflict, such as the women are already changing and the trans woman arrives. Maybe staff need to advise the women already there are check if it is OK and maybe the trans woman has to wait. But, I would argue that only really applies with communal spaces. If everywhere has cubicles, for changing and showering, then it is less of an issue.

Why is it too much to ask for the trasngender identified male to use the male facilities with all of the other males? Or for the transgender identified male to use a separate facility altogether? Why should females be required to give way to that male's special feelings?

Why are that male's feelings so incredibly important, but the feelings, dignity, and rights of all the female so easily tossed aside?

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

So, yeah, that's NOT the norm in female changing rooms. While we don't "parade", most of us are comfortable enough around other females that we don't go to great lengths to avoid seeing or being seen. We've been known to have full conversations while nude with other females, including discussions about our breast pain during PMS, chapped nipples while breastfeeding, cramps and backaches from our periods, and even the occasional comment on someone's lovely undergarments.

This is a bit of an aside, but I truly wish that males would stop assuming that the male experience and the male dynamic are the "norms" that everyone else follows. Males so seldom seem to understand how very different female interactions and dynamics are.

As an additional point with respect to changing rooms... Do you genuinely think that a heterosexual male surrounded by naked females will adhere to your "how males be around other males" way of behaving and will NOT take the opportunity to look at all the boobs and butts?

Men seem to be quite comfortable with telling us that we should change our behaviour in our intimate spaces so as to protect ourselves from the males they have no problem decreeing should be allowed in there.

It's the same with this "single cubicles" thing. No matter how often we explain how this puts women in danger (from hidden cameras, and from being forced into the locked single-occupancy space and assaulted) and how it robs us of a community space we value highly (and sometimes use to be safe), some other man emerges and announces that this is the (wildly expensive and completely impractical) solution to everything that he with his manly genius has just thought up.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Nessie

It is an issue that also affects men, just less so and in different ways to women.

Please explain to me how the issue of transgender identified males demanding access to female-only changing areas affects other males?

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

And they are not at all great for women, for the several reasons we've laid out earlier.

I wish males would STOP assuming that their male dynamic is how females operate, or even assuming that it is how females *ought to* operate.

Females are not just "lesser males".

See - my patience and good will only lasted a short while after all.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Why is it too much to ask for the trasngender identified male to use the male facilities with all of the other males? Or for the transgender identified male to use a separate facility altogether? Why should females be required to give way to that male's special feelings?

Why are that male's feelings so incredibly important, but the feelings, dignity, and rights of all the female so easily tossed aside?

Well, you know, they're men. So they are the top of the pecking order and women should know their place. And bow down to these all-knowing men who tell us to shut up and let males have what they want.

It was ever thus.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

The falsetto range is natural, and men can learn to use it. Many transwomen train themselves to do this with their speaking voice. So in practice, a transwoman's voice can rise in pitch. But it's a minor point.

It's also not the point I was making, and is a bit of a left-turn. Yes, lots of transwomen train themselves to speak in a falsetto range. But that isn't their *natural speaking range* - it's an effort, and it takes intention. As soon as they stop trying, they fall right back into their natural speaking range.

BTW, the same is 100% true for my use of pronouns on this site. It takes conscious intentional effort. But as long as the PTB have the interpretation that failing to use a female pronoun for a male person who really really wants it is an actionably offense, nobody gets to have a sexed pronoun from me. The only way to win is to not play the game.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Nessie

It is an issue that also affects men, just less so and in different ways to women.

I would be OK with a transwoman, in the same changing room as me, so long as they observe normal decorum. I would not be happy with a transman, or indeed a man, who parades about naked. But that is a typically Scottish attitude. I accept, go elsewhere and nudity is more normal. I did that in Iceland and was relieved it was like a changing room in Scotland, but that may because the place was full of tourists. If it was a locals place, maybe they would have paraded about naked and I would have to tolerate it, or not go.

The first time I used mixed changing was the swimming pool, leisure centre in Hawick. There were big warning signs and lots of instructions. I hated it, but, over the years, as more and more places have mixed changing, I got used to it.

It is now normal to queue for a toilet in a cafe, with women. I like that, because I find shared toilets are cleaner than men only.

I think the main difference is that whilst I would feel as uncomfortable as a woman would in a similar situation, I would never feel as threatened as a woman would.

We are not asking you to use a mixed-sex changing room. We are asking you to go on sharing with people of your own sex. ALL people of your own sex. Transwomen are part of your half of humanity, own it. If males are not observing proper decorum in the male changing room, then I'm sure males have their ways of correcting this behaviour irrespective of the gender identity of the miscreant.

Let us worry about the transmen. They're on our team.

ETA: If you were trying to say that having a man who presents as feminine in your changing room is something that might embarrass you, and that is a reason you want to palm them off on to us, basically, get in the sea.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I don't think it's a concession anyone should be willing to make, now or in the before times. Male puberty is irreversible. Removing the external genitalia of a man doesn't change his appearance while clothed one tiny little bit. He still has the height, the skeletal and muscle structure, the huge hands and feet, the beard growth and the voice he had before.

Many women in prison have been abused by men and have fragile mental health. I do not think it is fair to them to allow any man into their space. Certainly not a man who has committed an imprisonable offence. Not even if we assure them he has been castrated. (They will most certainly not want to check for themselves.)

Okay, fair points. I was really thinking more along the lines of how we as females used to be willing to allow transsexual males to use our spaces, on the assumption that they were physically altered, when it seemed like they were genuinely trying to be considerate. I concede that in the context of a prison cell... that willingness is much less likely to be there.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

That's the one.

It's one of my favorites.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Men seem to be quite comfortable with telling us that we should change our behaviour in our intimate spaces so as to protect ourselves from the males they have no problem decreeing should be allowed in there.

It's the same with this "single cubicles" thing. No matter how often we explain how this puts women in danger (from hidden cameras, and from being forced into the locked single-occupancy space and assaulted) and how it robs us of a community space we value highly (and sometimes use to be safe), some other man emerges and announces that this is the (wildly expensive and completely impractical) solution to everything that he with his manly genius has just thought up.

I speculate that a lot of it is the assumption of "male" as the default. Invisible Women and all that.

I also think that a lot of it is a sort of casual misogyny, that many males aren't even aware of. They do not understand the world from the perspective of a female, they have never experienced the world from our perspective. To them, it's inconceivable that females would use female-only spaces as a venue for having discussions and conversations and interactions that we are generally unwilling or unable to have with males present. The idea that there are conversations that we cannot have in the presence of males never even crosses their minds, because they have never been in a situation where there is something they want or need to discuss but safety/dignity/social rules won't allow them to talk about. Males in general start from a position of being entitled to move through the world however they wish, and if they are denied their will, they generally feel that they are owed an explanation of why they can't do what they want. The have never been on the other end of that, where generally speaking, females move through the world from a perspective of asking permission. We end up having to justify why we want to do the things we want to do. it's infuriating.

As an aside - I ran across some of this a few weeks ago. My spouse and I had a run-if-the-mill married person argument. Nothing dramatic, nothing out of the ordinary. The difference this time was that I was in my closet, and my spouse was standing in the doorway. It escalated to a level that is unusual for us, and I was extremely angry and stressed, far out of the norm for me. I ended up screaming that them to go away and stop trapping me. We talked about it afterward, and it had not even occurred to them that I was "trapped". They asked why I didn't just push them out of the way, and the statement that they wouldn't feel "trapped if I were in the doorway. I told them that it doesn't work that way - they're a foot taller than me, and outweigh me by near 100 lbs. I *can't* just push them out of the way. It's not reciprocal. It had genuinely not even occurred to them that the disparity in sheer physicality has an impact on my security. And this is a male who has *never* done anything even remotely threatening to me in over 25 years of marriage. My conscious brain might trust them implicitly... but my instinct is apparently very well aware that I am powerless in this situation, and reacts accordingly.

That's the kind of thing that I think most males can't even process, it's so completely foreign to them.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Well, you know, they're men. So they are the top of the pecking order and women should know their place. And bow down to these all-knowing men who tell us to shut up and let males have what they want.

It was ever thus.

Afghanistan.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

So, yeah, that's NOT the norm in female changing rooms. While we don't "parade", most of us are comfortable enough around other females that we don't go to great lengths to avoid seeing or being seen. We've been known to have full conversations while nude with other females, including discussions about our breast pain during PMS, chapped nipples while breastfeeding, cramps and backaches from our periods, and even the occasional comment on someone's lovely undergarments.

This is a bit of an aside, but I truly wish that males would stop assuming that the male experience and the male dynamic are the "norms" that everyone else follows. Males so seldom seem to understand how very different female interactions and dynamics are.

I was relating the experience of a Scottish male. I referenced how it can differ between countries. I can only go by what I have picked up over the years from my wife & female friends and I get the impression much of what happens in Scotland happens in cubicles and that women loiter longer and are more likely to have conversations when they go to the toilet.

Quote:

As an additional point with respect to changing rooms... Do you genuinely think that a heterosexual male surrounded by naked females will adhere to your "how males be around other males" way of behaving and will NOT take the opportunity to look at all the boobs and butts?

I have said that I think it is up to premises to decide what happens. I suspect 90% plus would decide to exclude trans people from the changing room of the sex they have assumed, primarily because women would vote with their feet and not use that place.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Why is it too much to ask for the trasngender identified male to use the male facilities with all of the other males? Or for the transgender identified male to use a separate facility altogether? Why should females be required to give way to that male's special feelings?

Why are that male's feelings so incredibly important, but the feelings, dignity, and rights of all the female so easily tossed aside?

I cannot answer those questions, because I am not running a premises that has decided to allow trans women to change in the female changing rooms. You would need to ask that place, why they made that decision.

I suspect in reality, the vast majority of premises would have a policy that trans women have to change with the men, because they will lose lots of women customers.

Or, as I saw in M&S recently, they move to a shared cubical system, when the cubicals are built so there is no way someone can accidentally enter and they are totally closed off.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Please explain to me how the issue of transgender identified males demanding access to female-only changing areas affects other males?

It affects me because it affects my wife and in any case, I was referring to the wider issue of trans men.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

We are not asking you to use a mixed-sex changing room.

I am not asking you to do that, either. My suggestion merely means premises get to decide and if you find a premise has decided to allow it, then you decide not to use it.

Quote:

We are asking you to go on sharing with people of your own sex. ALL people of your own sex. Transwomen are part of your half of humanity, own it. If males are not observing proper decorum in the male changing room, then I'm sure males have their ways of correcting this behaviour irrespective of the gender identity of the miscreant.

Let us worry about the transmen. They're on our team.

ETA: If you were trying to say that having a man who presents as feminine in your changing room is something that might embarrass you, and that is a reason you want to palm them off on to us, basically, get in the sea.

I was showing you that the uncomfortablness of the presence of a trans person in an intimate space, is something we both share. I showed understanding that there is then the major difference of I am not threatened by the presence, whereas, totally understandably, you are. That means the "rules" are different and I would expect in reality, if it was left to premises to decide who changes where, women would have their space and men would share with trans men and women.

[Rolfe]

My problem is not with trans people in an intimate space, it is with male people in an intimate space. This is heightened by the knowledge of why male people want to get into female intimate spaces - including voyeurism, flashing, dominance and picture-taking. As you say, you do not face the same threats from women in your intimate spaces - I haven't seen any transmen selfies in the Gents, complete with knife or gun and aggressive assertions of their right to be there and their glee at the thought of intimidating the terfs. Nevertheless I respect your modesty and your right to have a space to change that is free from the opposite sex too.

I don't have all the answers, but I am absolutely certain that decreeing that any man who claims to "feel like a woman" that day has free run of all the women's changing and sanitary and sleeping accommodation is not it. Allowing different premises to have different rules, and to advertise these rules, isn't a bad idea, so long as women can actually find places where there is genuine single-sex accommodation. At present that is highly problematical, with huge pressure from the trans lobby for everything in the bloody country to be "inclusive".

You speak of your wife's experience in Scotland. All I can say is that she is going to different places from me. In my experience there is a room, big or small. Some, often most, of the wall space is taken up by lockers so you can lock away your clothes when swimming. There's also a wall with mirrors, a shelf, maybe a wash hand basin or two, hairdryers, one of these things for drying bathing costumes, and a basket for used towels. In the middle there is a bench or benches. You get changed with everyone else on the bench. It's not normal to prance around in the nude, but it's also not normal to cover up obsessively. In the higher-class establishments there are often two or three cubicles in the corner for people who are too shy to get changed on the bench, but certainly not enough for everyone to use.

The showers are usually in an adjoining room, so people walk between the showers and the changing area with only a towel draped round them. They dry off after the shower in the communal changing area, and it's not easy to do that while keeping yourself covered. People don't obsessively try to keep covered when doing this.

And all the time there is a general level of social interaction. If you're there with a friend you'll be chatting to her, if you're alone there's a good chance you'll end up chatting to a complete stranger. It's relaxed and informal, and nobody worries for half a second whether anyone might be a lesbian, because lesbians are women and they know how to behave around other women.

Add a male to that mix, and it's instantly toxic. You might say, well let the transwoman change in one of the cubicles (if there are any). First, he won't, if the experiences reported by women and girls who have encountered this situation is anything to go by. It's "discrimination" and he demands the right to do the same as the "other girls". Second, he has to walk through the communal changing area to get there, and that is frankly a no-no. Even a fully-clothed male is not acceptable in such a space.

What would I do if a male person walked in when I was changing in such a room? Get my clothes on and get out. Immediately. And if I was on my way in, and had not yet swum, too bad. I am far from being alone in this. Find some other way to accommodate gender-nonconforming men, and stop trying to deprive women of what little privacy they have.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

My problem is not with trans people in an intimate space, it is with male people in an intimate space...

Are you OK with a trans who has lived as a woman for years, has had operations and looks and very much behaves like a woman, being in an intimate space?

[Rolfe]

I don't know that he's had any operations, so that's moot.

What does "lived as a woman" even mean? Nobody can define it.

Looks and very much behaves like a woman. How many of these rare creatures even exist? If someone like that is in the Ladies lavatory I won't even notice unless he speaks to me, which if he has any sense he will not.

In the women's changing room? Maybe if he uses the cubicles to change (and again keeps his mouth shut) I won't notice, so we're probably cool there too.

This is how it used to be. We knew there were a few people like that, and so long as they behaved appropriately we were prepared to turn a blind eye. It worked OK. But we can't continue like that now.

We are talking not about women, at their discretion, turning a blind eye to a male person who is making every effort not to cause offence or discomfort. We are talking about an entire class of people (that is, males who want to be in women's spaces) having the legal right to be there, and women not having any right to protest their presence.

In the past if a male person behaved inappropriately or even made a woman uncomfortable by his presence, he could be asked to leave. And if he had any decency at all he would leave voluntarily as soon as he realised that his presence was a problem. We are having that right taken away from us, and instead aggressive AGP men and voyeurs, flashers and the like are being given the legal right to be in our spaces and there's nothing we can do about it until one of them actually commits a crime. (And in this situation voyeurism and flashing cease to be crimes.)

If you can find a way to give only transwomen who have "lived as a woman" (whatever that means) for years and not only look like women they behave like women the right to be in female intimate spaces, do explain how.

[Rolfe]

One thing that strikes me is that when people talk about transmen they usually seem to be thinking about someone like Buck Angel. Leaving aside that Buck Angel is a lot more feminine than the posed pictures suggest, that degree of masculinisation is very unusual. Someone also posted a picture of a group of younger androgenised women posing with their little beards and displaying muscles that were obviously the product of hours every day spent in the gym. Again, very unusual.

The appearance of today's women who identify as transmen is a lot more like this.

https://twitter.com/ThePosieParker/s...50832959946753

These are two young women. A lesbian couple. They both want to be men, but come on. I wouldn't bat an eyelid if either of them got changed on the bench beside me.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

I don't know that he's had any operations, so that's moot.

What does "lived as a woman" even mean? Nobody can define it.

Dressing, behaving and having the operations.

Quote:

Looks and very much behaves like a woman. How many of these rare creatures even exist? If someone like that is in the Ladies lavatory I won't even notice unless he speaks to me, which if he has any sense he will not.

In the women's changing room? Maybe if he uses the cubicles to change (and again keeps his mouth shut) I won't notice, so we're probably cool there too.

This is how it used to be. We knew there were a few people like that, and so long as they behaved appropriately we were prepared to turn a blind eye. It worked OK. But we can't continue like that now.

We are talking not about women, at their discretion, turning a blind eye to a male person who is making every effort not to cause offence or discomfort. We are talking about an entire class of people (that is, males who want to be in women's spaces) having the legal right to be there, and women not having any right to protest their presence.

In the past if a male person behaved inappropriately or even made a woman uncomfortable by his presence, he could be asked to leave. And if he had any decency at all he would leave voluntarily as soon as he realised that his presence was a problem. We are having that right taken away from us, and instead aggressive AGP men and voyeurs, flashers and the like are being given the legal right to be in our spaces and there's nothing we can do about it until one of them actually commits a crime. (And in this situation voyeurism and flashing cease to be crimes.)

If you can find a way to give only transwomen who have "lived as a woman" (whatever that means) for years and not only look like women they behave like women the right to be in female intimate spaces, do explain how.

That is why I would leave the decisions to the premises. I even gave an example, where a premises might have a regular trans who the ladies are fine with, but they have the option to refuse another trans person access, because they do not know them, or the person is a man who is at it.

As you admit, you may have shared spaces with a transwoman, without realising it, so it is not unreasonable that places will let transwomen in with the ladies.

[Rolfe]

None of what you say is in the slightest way practical, nor does it bear any relationship to what is actually being proposed. I'm concerned with what is being proposed. Which is to allow any man who wants to be in women's single-sex areas to be there, as a legal right.

What we keep hearing on this thread is, "well how about we just let the ones I think are OK in, and keep the rest out?" I'm tired rehearsing all the ways this is in fact neither possible nor practical nor satisfactory.

[Nick Terry]

The petition slowed down considerably yesterday, now at 64,231 signatures, so it won't get past 65K or to the two-thirds mark in 2022. That's still an impressive achievement, but it will likely require more news in the new year to stimulate the sign-up rate to reach 100K.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/623243