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11th September 2017, 04:51 PM | #521 |
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12th September 2017, 06:54 AM | #522 |
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Nobody is denying that the core message is one of helping others. What's being pointed out is that the message is being presented in an explicitly racist manner. Given the relieve social and economic positions of the Jews and the Samaritans in first century Palestine, this would be a relatively actuate updating of the parable:
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12th September 2017, 06:58 AM | #523 |
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Here is an example of the sort of thing I'm talking about:
I don't recall an explicit, "I am a troll!" moment in PartSkeptic's posts, but she / he has explicitly admitted to deliberately misreading and misquoting people they think may be doing the same to them. This has been born out in my interactions with PartSkeptic. |
12th September 2017, 07:24 AM | #524 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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12th September 2017, 07:55 AM | #525 |
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Dude. Really? Dude.
Quote:
And yet your deity has done NOTHING to us for disregarding your words. Hmmm. Interesting. |
12th September 2017, 08:10 AM | #526 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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12th September 2017, 08:46 AM | #527 |
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I hope this isn't going to devolve into another "Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot" discussion as we try to find out which parts of the Bible she / he DOES consider valid. At that point we might as well tell the claimant to shuffle off until they put together their OWN edited Bible.
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12th September 2017, 09:45 AM | #528 | |||
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This amusing video:
Christian “Prophetess” Will Stop Hurricane Irma By Hitting It With a Scepter
lead me to a thread in the /r/Christinaity subreddit where this comment struck me as relevant here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianit...ma_by/dmujj2f/
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12th September 2017, 10:00 AM | #529 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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12th September 2017, 10:15 AM | #530 |
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12th September 2017, 11:52 AM | #531 |
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12th September 2017, 12:47 PM | #532 |
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I think the core takeaway is ParkSkeptic admitted to being willing to lie if she / he thought the other person was lying. This is a complete concession of any claim to a moral high ground.
I don't recall a single instance in either the Old or New Testaments where a prophet or apostle endorsed lying as part of their evangelism efforts. If anything, that sort of explicit half-truth behavior is considered the domain of the adversary, not the divine. |
12th September 2017, 12:55 PM | #533 |
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Bethke seems to be somewhat aware of what is written in his bible(s) although he, as you stated, fails dismally understanding it.
On the other hand, PS........... .........has admitted to not even being familiar with his bible at all, and only knows about bits and pieces shown to him by others. Of those bits and pieces, only the ones he likes are true, anything he does not like is "outdated" and not true. Oh such infinite wisdom of the self proclaimed "prophets"! |
12th September 2017, 01:27 PM | #534 |
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It's awfully convenient for them. It allows them to gleefully ignore anything that could contradict their head cannon about the religious Mary Sue Fanfic they've written about themselves.
Head Cannon: An idea, belief, or aspect of a story that is not mentioned in the media itself, but is accepted by either the media consumer themselves or the fandom in general. If it is confirmed by the creator of the story, it becomes canon. Mary Sue: The name "Mary Sue" comes from the 1974 Star Trek fanfic A Trekkie's Tale. Originally written as a parody of the standard Self-Insert Fic of the time Fanfic: Fan Fiction is a form of Alternate or Expanded Universe created by the fans of a work, rather than the work's original creator. Fan Fiction, or "Fan Fics" as they are often called, are written for any number of reasons |
12th September 2017, 10:54 PM | #535 |
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My request to "prove it" was for proof that God ordered it. If he can prove God ordered the mauling then God exists and we will be talking about what kind of god God is. I read the text. The children were mauled (torn). It does not imply killed. If true, it means one should be careful of who one jeers at. I jeered at an old woman in dressed in black on a dare. I was six years old. The local kids thought she was a witch. She went to my mother and insisted I get punished - while she watched. A serious beating. In my own experience bad things have happened to people who have really wronged me. I gave up thinking that such things should happen because it has a negative impact on me. Now I just leave it up to God (whether he exists or not). Last week I tried to get the last payment out of a fraudster who cons people. I was told he was in hospital with cancer. I did not say to his bookkeeper I was sorry because that would be lying - and I avoid lying (except in exceptional circumstances like when someone is holding a gun to my head). |
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12th September 2017, 11:01 PM | #536 |
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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13th September 2017, 03:15 AM | #537 |
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Step by step, inch by inch... to the inevitable confrontation.
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13th September 2017, 03:19 AM | #538 |
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And it is no surprise to me that you do not understand my reply. Or are you asking for a different phrasing so that you can accuse me of some heinous immoral position. Am I supposed to make a number of little posts to every point I wish to make in response to a raft of posts? Show me the rule-book on that. Read the previous posts - or do you have an attention span problem? |
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13th September 2017, 04:44 AM | #539 |
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Boys jeer at bald man.
Bald man curses boys for jeering at him. Bears appear from woods and maul boys. The implication of the story is that Yahweh the Bloody sent the bears to punish the boys for showing disrespect to his prophet (and therefore to him as well). The existence of this deity is irrelevant to the implications of the story - the deity in question will impose a sentence far in excess of what is just for showing disrespect, and that anyone who shows any disrespect to the deity or to his prophets/priests will be severely punished. This is consistent with the behaviour attributed to Yahweh throughout the OT, and the NT. Humans not blindly following instructions - they and all their descendants will now be subject to death, they must work very hard for subsistence and women MUST suffer during childbirth. Humans not doing what he wants - kill everything on the planet except one family and their pets. Ruler of the oppressive regime that was enslaving his people prepares to let them go - change the ruler's mind so that the deity can inflict greater punishments on the oppressive regime. Members of your "chosen people" want to marry worshippers of another deity? - Have your worshippers kill all the males and women who have had children of that other deity and enslave all the young girls for your sexual gratification. Fig tree not in season - curse it People not following your rules during a brief existence - punish them for eternity. Then there's the revenge porn that is Revelations. The stories that people tell about this deity allow us to discern his character in the same way that we can tell that Joffrey Baratheon is a douche from reading Game of Thrones. |
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13th September 2017, 06:05 AM | #540 |
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Not good enough. I believe you gave a date of sometime before October(?); there's not a lot of time left.
Meanwhile, in another thread, Relativity is supposed to collapse before the end of the year. And, outside the forum, the earth will be destroyed in a collision with the planet Nibiru on September 23rd (two weeks from now), but apparently will leave enough for the coals to be raked over by God himself in 2021(World Bible Society). Your nuclear exchange is starting to look like small potatoes. You're going to have to get bigger tarot cards if you want to compete. This signature is intended to irritate people. |
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13th September 2017, 06:26 AM | #541 |
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I was about to express incredulity at the absurdity of your response, until I remembered you were a confessed troll and liar, so of COURSE your response was going to be what you presented, something marginally more articulate than the average discourse on 4chan's /b/.
Yes, the Biblical deity is responsible. His prophet cursed the children and he sent bears as a response. That's about as morally culpable as you can get without getting down there to shiv the kids personally. Right, because surviving a bear mauling is a given, especially on a road between cities where doctors were rare and antibiotics were still a few THOUSAND years in the future. There are a number of people in this thread who know Hebrew well enough to answer the question of if the mauling described in the passage is a fatal or survivable one, but in the interim I'll bring in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. The word we're looking at is Strong's Hebrew #1234. בָּקַע
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Follow the link and take a look at the other places בָּקַע is used. Most the references are to something being ripped apart. For example in Isaiah 34:15 it's used to refer to an egg hatching. In Amos 1:13 it's used to refer to pregnant women being ripped open. In other passages rocks are cut open so water can pour fourth, seas are divided. This is a violent, permanent act. The passage describes 42 people being disemboweled, not getting a flesh wound from a claw swipe. My favorite is Genesis 7:11:
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And you think it describes a survivable attack. How cute. The sad part is you COULD have mounted a defense of the passage. There's a lot of ways to argue about the age of the young men who mocked the prophet. Knowing a bit of the historical, theological and political context of the passage could even allow you to see some deeper contexts in that passage that could arguably justify sending a couple bears to maul the mockers. (hint, mocking his lack of hair isn't the important part.) But no. You tossed aside all the potential arguments to defend the passage and picked the single stupidest imaginable tactic of, "Well you can survive being split by a bear, right?" |
13th September 2017, 06:40 AM | #542 |
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Here is an example of how I've often seen baqa discussed in the context of Biblical Literalism:
http://evolutionfacts.com/Appendix/a19b.htm
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"Pictured here is a gigantic cleavage of the gut of the mocker, with pints of blood and viscera exploding outward from those fissures in continual commotion." But yeah, PartSkeptic thinks he could survive that, with the primary medical care available at the time being, "Wrap it up and pray." Riiiiiight. |
13th September 2017, 07:12 AM | #543 |
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You keep bringing this up as if it will prove something if hostilities resume. It won't. If your big claim to fame as a "prophet" is predicting a resumption of hostilities between two countries lead by bull-headed narcissists with thin skins and small hands, we might as well ask the forum moderators to change your username to "Captain Obvious" and be done with it.
I know you're trolling, but please, try to come up with something a BIT more plausible as a "hit" for prophesy. You might as well be predicting Trump will post something inflammatory to Twitter in the next week and then gloat with glee when he does. No, the fact you missed the point of the post is pretty damn clear. Of course I believe you "missed" it deliberately as part of a trolling persona, but there are others here who hold out hope that you might actually be honest in at least some of your interactions. |
13th September 2017, 07:37 AM | #544 |
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@HalleysComet:
For the record: You accuse me of being a liar and a troll? Breaking the rules again. You must be a lawyer (or think you are one). And you know what sort of reputation for twisting the facts they have. Two bears maul 42 kids. Wow. The kids must have had a spell put on them that stopped them from running away. Assuming you are right and 42 kids died, their souls would have been judged, told that they should not do it again, and then reincarnated having learned a serious lesson. One wonders what judgment you would receive. Or without the curse, they could have grown up and suffered from leprosy. ETA: I see your nasty personal abusive posts have been moved. Correctly so. |
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13th September 2017, 07:50 AM | #545 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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13th September 2017, 07:55 AM | #546 |
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Do you know anything about anything?
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This signature is intended to irritate people. |
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13th September 2017, 08:13 AM | #547 |
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Seriously?
*sigh* OK, fine. I tried to nudge you, but you keep sticking to the dumbest possible justification for the passage. The Conservative Evangelical pastor I could have grown up to be is sitting in the back of my mind shaking his head in disbelief at the absurdity of your replies, muttering, "Is this was the Body of Christ has decayed into?" In an act of pity I'll give the cliff-notes version of a more competent apologetic for the passage.
Take that all together, and instead of God sending bears to murder 42 children over calling a man bald, we have God sending two bears to disperse a large group of thugs who were threatening to murder a prophet. Really, I thought I was throwing you a softball. I didn't expect I'd have to set up a Batting T and bunt the ball for you so you could get on base. |
13th September 2017, 08:52 AM | #548 |
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13th September 2017, 09:50 AM | #549 |
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It depends on the context.
The two posts of mine that were moved had no content other than the comment about trolling. In those posts I dismissed PartSkeptic's augments on the basis of my belief that they were a troll. These comments were removed from the main thread. They constituted a discussion about the arguer and not the argument. I should not have made such posts and the moderators were right to remove them. On the other hand, my comment where I quoted the ParkSkeptic post where I believe they were confessing to deliberate misrepresentation remains. My post where I compare their admission of misrepresentation to the behavior of prophets in the Bible also remains. One answered an explicit question that was asked of me regarding the reliability of the answers a person was giving. The other directly addresses PartSkeptic's claims of being a prophet. While the arguer's integrity is a core concern in both posts, they're supported accusations made in relation to specific points. Compare these theoretical comments about a theoretical poster named "Baqa": 1. "I think Baqa is wrong because he's a poopiehead." 2. "I think Baqa is wrong because he's making claims about advanced physics yet he has demonstrated a third grade math education at best. He also just confused vectors with velocipedes." 3. "I think Baqa is not a reliable source because he brags about scooping up his own excrement and wearing it in paper hats. He also brags about 'never using 'sham' poo in my hair!'" The first comment is simply an insult, like pointing a finger and yelling "troll!" It's analogous to the posts of mine that were recently removed from this thread. The third comment also calls Baqa a poopiehead, but explains what that means and why I think it's relevant to the conversation. This very post is very likely to be removed, as it can easily be considered off-topic or even discussion of moderation decisions outside of the approved forums. |
13th September 2017, 10:42 AM | #550 |
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Wow, so much bile. Did someone kick your puppy? It remains no surprise to me that you still haven't commented on the morals of sending bears to attack children for comments they may have made. If that's your idea of moral behaviour by anyone then your perspective on the issue is way off whack.
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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13th September 2017, 11:04 AM | #551 |
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Also dodges the biblical endorsement of slavery. That's kind of hard to ignore.
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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13th September 2017, 11:09 AM | #552 |
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13th September 2017, 11:45 AM | #553 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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13th September 2017, 01:23 PM | #554 |
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13th September 2017, 02:14 PM | #555 |
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Yes, the Hebrew is unclear about the ages.
In verse 23 it refers to them as נער (na'ar) which means "young man/youth" which means of marriage and/or military age. But that noun is followed by the adjective קטן (katan) which means "small" but is also used to mean "young". So the meaning is very young adolescents. (Both words are in the plural form). But then, to complicate matters, in verse 24 they are referred to as ילדים (yeladeem) which means "children/boys". The plain, literal description (of both verses together) is of older children/young teens. In case PS still wants to (incredibly) go with the "just a flesh wound" response, he should check out Hosea 13:8. That is the only time in Tanakh (as far as I know) where the word בקע (baka) is used to describe what wild animals do when attacking humans. I think that leaves no room for doubt. Hosea 13:8 http://biblehub.com/hosea/13-8.htm Exactly. With a large crowd (unknown number) of 'adolescents', only some would have managed to escape in a panic. 42 of them obviously did not make it. The book of Kings was likely redacted in the 6th century BCE (during/after Babylonia) when the priests/scribes were pushing for monotheism, worship of YHVH alone. So it was obviously finalised as "monotheist = good, polytheists =bad". In reality, the timeline of the Elisha stories (9th cent. BCE) was when virtually everyone were polytheists, so the finalised stories definitely had a political/religious agenda, and the story of the adolescents included economic issues. The actual word used is "go up" (infinitive לעלות) and is a very commonly used word. The same word is used three times in verse 23. The first is when Elisha "went up" (past tense) to Bet-El, the second is as he is "going up" (present tense) on the road, and the third is the jeers from the boys, "go up!" (imperative form). According to commentators the jeers from the boys is, as you said, taken as a reference to Elijah. |
13th September 2017, 02:33 PM | #556 |
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13th September 2017, 03:19 PM | #557 |
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I am honestly baffled how this forum is giving trolls and narcissists a safe space and even a stage to repeatedly talk down to people instead of banning them after the very first iteration of "claims of woo -> getting called out -> reply in the most arrogant and hostile way possible"
Guess not everyones brain makes a safe transition into old age. Happy removing |
13th September 2017, 03:34 PM | #558 |
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13th September 2017, 03:37 PM | #559 |
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14th September 2017, 06:01 AM | #560 |
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It's a difficult balance. At what point do you risk accusations of censorship in order to maintain forum decorum? This thread and a few others like it are going to go a long way towards addressing any accusations of censorship that get thrown at the site.
I originally came here because there was an absolutely HILARIOUS overtly racist religious zealot who had been kicked out of the "Skeptic's Guide to the Universe Forums." They tend to shut down circular discussions that go on for too long. She cropped up here and I came over to poke. I was not disappointed. I ended up with material for a novella I still have percolating in the background. Sadly she got herself properly banned here for sock puppetry and I haven't seen her crop up anywhere else under a username I recognized. The SGU forums and this forum are moderated differently in part because the forums ultimately have different goals. The SGU Forum is still a forum to support a podcast. This forum however is more of a clearinghouse of skepticism. Those different missions necessitate different moderation styles. |
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