|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
5th December 2018, 08:33 AM | #1 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,684
|
Republican-led Wisconsin legislature votes to curb power of newly elected Democrats.
Republican-led Wisconsin legislature approves bills to diminish executive power after Democratic election wins
Quote:
|
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
5th December 2018, 08:37 AM | #2 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,498
|
So what's the problem? The next legislature can always undo whatever this legislature does.
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
5th December 2018, 08:43 AM | #3 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,578
|
|
__________________
I don't believe in God and all the rest outside of methodological naturalism But I am a cognitive and ethical relativist/subjectivist and skeptic. #JeSuisAhmed |
|
5th December 2018, 08:59 AM | #4 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,469
|
In the meantime they're subverting democracy by denying the government officials the people just voted for the powers the people voted for them to have.
Gerrymandering, voting restrictions, reducing voting time frames, reducing voting locations, reducing the number and times of locations where people can get what they need to vote, purging voter rolls, and now election fraud and stealing power from those just elected. Why do Republicans hate democracy? It's almost as if they lose fair elections. |
__________________
Don't feed the trolls. Just ignore them. |
|
5th December 2018, 09:24 AM | #5 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
|
That "argument" can be applied to any position.
Republicans passed a bill that requires mandatory execution for any speeding violation? What's the problem? The next legislature can always undo whatever this legislature does. LOL! You're just disingenuously side-stepping the actual issue. |
5th December 2018, 09:28 AM | #6 |
Straussian
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,420
|
Philip Bump Tweeted:
Quote:
|
__________________
Cain: Don't be a homo. Diablo: What's that supposed to mean? Cain: It's a heteronormative remark meant to be taken at face-value. |
|
5th December 2018, 09:38 AM | #7 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 1,025
|
|
5th December 2018, 09:50 AM | #8 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
|
|
5th December 2018, 09:54 AM | #9 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,915
|
Neat, word salad. I'm not hungry though.
I'm 0% shocked that Republicans are condoning this though. It just goes to show that they really have no desire to put their country first at all. It's all about them keeping power any way they can, and their lapdogs will continue to lap it up. As long as it "triggerz teh demz" |
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
5th December 2018, 11:34 AM | #10 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,498
|
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
5th December 2018, 11:35 AM | #11 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,498
|
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
5th December 2018, 11:55 AM | #12 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,545
|
In the age of Trump, a time when seemingly intelligent conservatives have become apologists for this sort of transparent anti-democratic shenanigans, nothing apparently.
Oh by the way, you're wrong. Wisconsin will have divided government. It may not be easily reversible. |
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
|
|
5th December 2018, 12:10 PM | #13 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 33,024
|
Those that are defending this power grab would be the first screaming to the rafters if the parties' political affiliations were reversed. The GOP has controlled the state government for years, yet they never voted to lessen their own power which is clear evidence of the partisan motive behind this action.
|
5th December 2018, 12:16 PM | #14 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,359
|
What the republicans are doing in Wisconsin is filthy and repulsive.
|
__________________
There is nothing as deceptive as an obvious fact. |
|
5th December 2018, 12:26 PM | #15 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,417
|
|
5th December 2018, 12:30 PM | #17 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 20,145
|
Lol, elections have consequences.
|
5th December 2018, 12:33 PM | #18 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Dharug & Gundungurra
Posts: 16,895
|
It will never be enacted while it is tied up in court battles which get delayed "forever". Meanwhile, life goes on.
Whoops, ninja'd. |
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
|
5th December 2018, 12:37 PM | #19 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
5th December 2018, 01:00 PM | #20 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,355
|
Oh its okay then. Using tax payer money and government resources to fight obvious petty obstructionisim. Democracy doesn't matter when it is your side that loses the election, especially when your side has spent so much time and effort rigging the system with gerrymandering.
|
5th December 2018, 01:05 PM | #21 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,498
|
I'm really having a hard time taking seriously the complaint that the legislature constraining the power of the executive is inherently undemocratic. Most executive branches should be more constrained than they are. I'm sure the Republicans did it for partisan advantage, but so what? The complaints are all motivated by partisan disadvantage as well. Nobody here is arguing why the removed powers properly belong with the executive and not the legislature. That's the tell. So really, spare me the outrage and the sanctimoniousness. If voters care enough, they'll give Democrats full control and this can all be reversed. If they don't, then why should I?
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
5th December 2018, 01:11 PM | #22 |
Not a doctor.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 25,900
|
|
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake. |
|
5th December 2018, 01:17 PM | #23 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
|
Where's the consequences for these clearly anti-democratic actions? Prison-time? If not, why not?
|
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
|
5th December 2018, 01:24 PM | #24 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,498
|
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
5th December 2018, 01:34 PM | #25 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,915
|
|
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
5th December 2018, 01:44 PM | #26 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,498
|
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
5th December 2018, 01:49 PM | #27 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,915
|
|
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
5th December 2018, 02:03 PM | #28 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,498
|
Oh please. This isn't about "people". You aren't standing on any actual principles. You're only upset because the Democrats are at a partisan disadvantage.
Again, the tell is that no one is arguing for why the powers in question properly belong to the executive and not the legislature. Everyone is only upset because a Democrat won't get to use those powers. Even when I point out the tell, you still can't help but give the game away. |
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
5th December 2018, 02:19 PM | #29 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
|
I'll take it then that there's no consequences for anti-democratic actions from lawmakers in the US. That's odd. This would not be acceptable in a democracy.
|
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
|
5th December 2018, 02:19 PM | #30 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 18,090
|
Then don't fight that straw man. Start addressing how, with less support from the voters, this minority in power legislature is accumulating power that lets them further make them less answerable to the people. No one is arguing that it is inherently undemocratic, but that it is undemocratic in this case.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So why do you think these powers should be removed from the executive to the legislative? I think that they are simply a very brazen power grab running contrary to the will of the electorate based on what they candidates that won ran on. They also make a more muddled and easier to sabotage system, such as letting the legislature hire their own lawyers for judicial challenges. But then again, that does let them do the GOP thing of working towards bad government to prove government can't work.
Quote:
|
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
|
5th December 2018, 02:20 PM | #31 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 33,024
|
Would you like to explain to us why, if this is really all about where these powers "properly belong", the Republicans waited until after the election where they lost control of the two offices affected? This move shifts the power to the legislature that the Republicans will still control. It's a power grab and has nothing to do with powers that "properly belong to the executive and not the legislature". It's all about protecting Republican interests and legislation the Dems have targeted like the FoxConn deal, the lawsuit against Obamacare and restrictions on early voting.
Why don't you also explain to us why these powers don't belong to the executive branch and the state AG? |
5th December 2018, 02:24 PM | #32 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 35,043
|
Lame-duck partisan antics have been around as long as this country has existed, but this move is of an unprecedented magnitude. Well, maybe not unprecedented. Things got pretty nasty right before the Civil War. I wouldn't exactly call that a good model of government to follow.
Norms are important for the continued proper functioning of our government. They aren't written into law, but rather rely on good faith of the elected legislature. The peaceful, smooth transition of power between incumbent and newly elected is one such norm. Some amount of gamesmanship has always existed, but the norm was respected. The gallop of the Republicans to dump these norms for short term partisan gain is extremely dangerous. They are knocking the legs out from under the table, and it will not be so easy to repair as it was to destroy. |
__________________
Previously known as SuburbanTurkey |
|
5th December 2018, 02:25 PM | #33 |
Merchant of Doom
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 15,112
|
IF someone breaks into my house and starts attacking my family with a knife, one can easily suspect they did so motivated by some sort of murderous rage.
When I shoot them in order to stop them, it's equally likely I'm also feeling a murderous rage for what they're attempting. That doesn't mean both are equally justified (or unjustified), nor that there are not other, legitimate reasons for my actions. It also doesn't mean that I'm on equal terms with the attacker and motivated only by rage because I'm not discussing why my family didn't deserve killin'. |
5th December 2018, 02:30 PM | #34 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
|
It seems to me that the treasonous GOP has decided to start a chicken race with the rest of the US population. They are moving towards civil war and are counting on sane people moving out of the way to avoid disaster. Don't reward this behavior.
|
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
|
5th December 2018, 02:33 PM | #35 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,498
|
I already said I think the Republicans are motivated by partisanship. So what?
If the powers in question don't properly belong with the executive, then taking them away from the executive is a good thing regardless of why or when it was done. If they do properly belong with the executive, then taking them away is a bad thing regardless of why or when it was done.
Quote:
As a general rule, though, the powers that the executive needs to have are granted by the constitution, and the legislature is not able to take away those powers. Usually the legislature can only take away powers that it previously granted, and legislatures tend to grant executives too much of these to begin with. |
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
5th December 2018, 02:38 PM | #36 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,498
|
So close, and yet so far.
If we were debating the legislature about why they did this, then yes, the onus would be on them to justify their vote. But they aren't here. They aren't part of this discussion. So no onus can be placed on them to explain anything to us. And a positive claim HAS been made that what the legislature did was not simply motivated by partisan interests (I have no doubt about that), but also somehow objectively wrong. That positive claim should have support. It doesn't, not really.
Quote:
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
5th December 2018, 02:43 PM | #37 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,545
|
Whereas I can't take anything you post (here) seriously. I hate the "Sad!" meme, but I do feel a teeny bit Sad! for you.
I wouldn't mind, however, if you retracted your knee jerk assumption that it was easily reversible, just to set the record straight. Otherwise we wind up moving from one asinine Ziggurat comment to the next, in whack-a-mole fashion, your permeability left in question. |
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
|
|
5th December 2018, 02:48 PM | #38 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 56,498
|
|
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
|
5th December 2018, 02:54 PM | #39 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,598
|
|
5th December 2018, 03:00 PM | #40 |
Great minds think...
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 13,915
|
No, I'm not. I'm actually upset because I agree with your words, just not how you intend them. The people voted, you're right. They expected the people they put in power to be able to use that power exactly as they were.
That doesn't need to be argued. It's a red herring. There was no issue with the powers being the way they were. They had worked for an extended period of time, and the GOP has come out to say they are taking these actions because they have to pass the torch. "Everyone" is upset because the GOP is picking up it's ball and going home like a bunch of babies. The definition of sore loser. Meanwhile the supporters have to bend over backwards to excuse the behavior. I'd say it's sad if it wasn't so expected. |
__________________
“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|