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16th May 2006, 04:55 PM | #1 |
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White House to Hug the Tar Baby?
Anyone else notice the "tar baby" reference made by the new White House Press Secretary Tony Snow earlier today?
It is a pretty bizzare comment for a media expert, and the President's personal representative like Snow to use on camera and on the record. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0060516-4.html ... Again, I would take you back to the USA Today story, simply to give you a little context. Look at the poll that appeared the following day. While there was -- part of it said 51 percent of the American people opposed, if you look at when people said, if there is a roster of phone numbers, do you feel comfortable that -- I'm paraphrasing and I apologize -- but something like 64 percent of the polling was not troubled by it. Having said that, I don't want to hug the tar baby of trying to comment on the program -- the alleged program -- the existence of which I can neither confirm nor deny. ... P.S.: thanks to my girlfriend for pointing out the item to me! |
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16th May 2006, 04:57 PM | #2 |
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It could be a transcript error, but it seems right in context, in which case it's a very odd thing to say. I'm pretty sure that 'tar baby' is/was a racial slur.
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16th May 2006, 05:48 PM | #3 |
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"tar baby" is not a racial slur. It's a story from Uncle Remus. In it, B'rer Rabbit gets annoyed that tar baby won't say hello to him or acknowledge him, so he punches it. his hand gets stuck to the tar baby, this annoys him more so he punches it w/ his other hand. this too gets stuck to tar baby, so he kicks it. foot gets stuck, so he kicks it w/ the other foot. Now all 4 limbs are stuck, and he's "hugging the tar baby".
eta: The Uncle Remus character is seen as racist by today's standards, but there was nothing at all racist by any standard to the tar baby story. Because the tar baby was not a person, it was actually a lump of tar made in the shape of a person. Tar baby story here. |
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16th May 2006, 05:59 PM | #4 |
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While I agree with Wildcat that it probably wasn't racist--one could easily get derailed into the Uncle Remus stories but I am not planning to got there--but it was a peculiar thing to say, IMHO.
Been on this planet 50+ years and in the US South about 6 of them, and I have never heard that term used or written in polite (or other) conversation in my life. The last new expression I got taught down here was "That dog don't hunt". Never a 'tarbaby'. So I imagine more than a few reporters probably went Huh?? when they heard that one. Anyobdy else ever here that as a saying around your parts? |
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16th May 2006, 06:17 PM | #5 |
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16th May 2006, 06:17 PM | #6 |
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i heard it, I understand the analogy, but I didn't understand the racial undertones. I didn't know it had any.
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16th May 2006, 06:18 PM | #7 |
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At any rate, it's not a racial slur that I've ever been aware of.
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16th May 2006, 06:19 PM | #8 |
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It originated with Joel Chandler Harris's "Uncle Remus" stories (which I loved) but back in Alabama, I definitely heard "tar baby" used as a racial slur with some frequency. I'm pretty sure that's not what Bush meant.
On a side note, they never release Disney's excellent "Song of the South", based on Uncle Remus stories, because it isn't politically correct anymore. Happy slaves? That dog won't hunt. |
16th May 2006, 06:20 PM | #9 |
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16th May 2006, 06:34 PM | #10 |
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I've heard of lots of epigrams, but not this one. It's as enigmatic as "jumping the shark", to those not in the know.
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16th May 2006, 06:46 PM | #11 |
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16th May 2006, 07:28 PM | #12 |
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"Tar baby" has been used as an racial epithet for some time. Using to descibe a black person is probably a bad idea. This context, as has been pointed out, is quite a bit different.
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16th May 2006, 07:30 PM | #13 |
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I'm 21 and had a giant ass book of the stories when I was younger. I thought that I read that Disney was planning to finally release Song of the South on dvd soon, but the place I read it is currently down.
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16th May 2006, 07:32 PM | #14 |
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16th May 2006, 07:33 PM | #15 |
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16th May 2006, 08:30 PM | #16 |
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I've lived through out the South my entire life. The only time I've ever heard the term "tar baby" used is as a racial slur. I don't doubt that he intended the phrase in the manner Wild Cat suggested. However, if he wants to keep his job, he may want to watch what he says a bit more closely.
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16th May 2006, 11:12 PM | #17 |
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I don't think that in this case it was a racial slur, or an allusion to one, but to a sticky problem he didn't even want to touch.
The only way to make it racist is to go really far and say that the supposed "black character" in the Remus stories, Br'er Rabbit, was stupid for hugging the tar baby, but then all dem blacks is stupid. But that's a long limb, and I really don't think this allusion had anything to do with that. I vote not racist. |
17th May 2006, 02:18 AM | #18 |
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I think it's pretty obvious that he was blatantly saying "I wouldn't want to touch a black person because they are sticky and you can never fully wash their funk out of your clothes". I mean, what other possible meaning could it have? "tar baby" is obviously the latest term for our continually oppressed ancestrally challenged persons of partial non-american, non-european, non-asian descent.
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17th May 2006, 02:38 AM | #19 |
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My initial thought was that "to hug that tar-baby" referred to taking on a particularly "sticky" problem, literally one that would be very hard to get rid of again. The "black" angle didn't really come to the fore for me...I guess because race issues for me growing up were mostly positive (and that's a different story).
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17th May 2006, 02:46 AM | #20 |
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I bought a copy, when exiting the "Splash Mountain" ride at Disneyworld, a couple of months ago.
"Splash Mountain" is one of the more popular attractions at Disney and, for those who haven't been there, is based on the movie "Song of the South," which features the Uncle Remus stories. I understand that Roy Disney plans on releasing the film, should he ever manage to oust Eisner from the organization. ETA: The Tar Baby was a trap, set up by Brer Fox to catch Brer Rabbit. Wildcat gives an accurate account of how it worked. |
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17th May 2006, 03:58 AM | #21 |
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Same here. You hardly ever hear "jigaboo" either.
That is true, but for lots of southerners, "black" had only one meaning (not having much contact with Indians). In college, I used to work at Sambo's restaurant, which was about identical to Denny's or IHOP. Their motif included a series of pictures of the children's story (it involved pancakes), and Sambo was definately Indo-Asian. But even in those days, that wasn't enough. They were pressured in some places to change their name to "Happy Tiger" and eventually folded. |
17th May 2006, 04:29 AM | #22 |
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tar baby
I was floored when I heard the comment.
When I moved to the States (OH) in the late 70's it was one of the first terms of "endearment", along with spear chucker and jigaboo I was taught to refer to "those people". |
17th May 2006, 04:51 AM | #23 |
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Tarbaby was in the racist interview sketch with Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor in SNL.
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17th May 2006, 05:05 AM | #24 |
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There were numerous running jokes about the blackness of "black" people--that they became invisible at night, and so on. It seems likely that the original story assumed that listeners would understand that B'rer Rabbit was fooled by the overwhelming presense of blackness--that this one aspect of the tar baby was so prominent that B'rer Rabbit was unable to see all the evidence that he wasn't looking at a human. Of course it was mostly other black persons who were fooled by these sorts of tricks.
So the original audience would recognize the racist overtones, and be amused or offended. |
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17th May 2006, 05:18 AM | #25 |
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Hope but doubt that a re-release of Song of the South will occur. It is available, I understand, from sources who started with the Japanese laserdisc version. Many southerners actually believed the stereotypes in Harris and others - but the stories were, as best I have been able to determine, the type that were being told by slaves. Many examples were given in a Zora Hurston collection as well as in comparatively recent volumes on history of blacks/AA's in the entertainment industry ( none of which are at hand - but if anyone interested, I will list in a later post). To avoid pointless conflict, I won't discuss here my opinions of SoS or Amos and Andy (TV).
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17th May 2006, 05:29 AM | #26 |
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Yes, I remember that now. I think in another skit Chase said, "I don't judge a man on the color of his skin, I judge him on how well you can see him when he smiles in the dark."
During that era, lots of very liberal comedians were poking large holes in our racist attitudes. In "Blazing Saddles", Mel Brooks had the n-word dozens of times in the most racist context possible which effectively defused the word as a serious slur in the movie. Of course, TV versions still bleep it out. |
17th May 2006, 05:51 AM | #27 |
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Acutally, Comedy Central runs Blazing Saddles without cutting the language. There was an interesting interview with Trey/Matt of South Park where they joked about doing the s**t episode and getting away with murder for most of their shows but when they tried to do a n***** joke Comedy Central said no. They pointed out that Blazing Saddles had run uncut using the same word about a thousand times at all times of the day.
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17th May 2006, 06:04 AM | #28 |
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The context of Snow's comment is pretty clear that he was saying he didn't want to discuss the issue of wiretaps because it wasn't his place to reveal information that he was not authorized to reveal. To continue to answer questions about it would cause him to risk revealing too much. He was trying to back away from the subject but the reporters were trying to force him to get his paws stuck.
Pretty plain to me what he meant, and the reference was apt. |
17th May 2006, 06:12 AM | #29 |
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Well, with record deficits, no one can accuse the Bush administration of being niggardly.
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17th May 2006, 06:53 AM | #30 |
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I didn't think his meaning was up for debate here. It's hardly probable that he meant it as a racial slur. I assumed that he was unaware that some people perceive it as one, which they do.
I was in a business meeting several years ago in which a senior member of staff referred to her new dress as "n***er brown". When I called her on it, she had absolutely no idea whatsoever that it was a racial slur. It used to be the proper name for a certain shade of paint and cloth, and she simply didn't realise it wasn't ok to use, even if her intended meaning was non-racist. |
17th May 2006, 07:28 AM | #31 |
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17th May 2006, 07:54 AM | #32 |
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin
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17th May 2006, 08:08 AM | #33 |
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17th May 2006, 08:09 AM | #34 |
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I do not believe that Snow was using a racial slur when he used the "tar baby".
However, I for one grew up with several close relatives who were very prejudicial where they often used the term "tar baby" as a racial slur in order to describe black babies while other, and more widely known, terms were used to describe adult blacks. So even though "tar baby" does have a non-racial definition, I still think that it is a very poor term to use in such a public setting and I expected better from someone like Snow. |
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17th May 2006, 08:24 AM | #35 |
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17th May 2006, 08:27 AM | #36 |
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Crossbow is always wrong. Except for this time.
I grew up in NY, and though I heard the term very infrequently, it was always a racial slur. It was only later that I learned of its root in the Uncle Remus story, in which, AFAIK, it had no racial connotaion at all. But it appears the slur has supplanted the original meaning of the term, and even assuming Snow meant nothing racial in the use of the term, it probably wasn't the best choice of words. He could have better said, "I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole," except that someone named Ignacz Wiesniewski would probably take offense. |
17th May 2006, 10:12 AM | #37 |
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Well now, that is a very good question.
After the stirring introduction provided by his boss about three weeks ago one would think that he would know enough to avoid language that is used as racial epithets. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea.../20060426.html ... He understands like I understand that the press is vital to our democracy. As a professional journalist, Tony Snow understands the importance of the relationship between government and those whose job it is to cover the government. He's going to work hard to provide you with timely information about my philosophy, my priorities, and the actions we're taking to implement our agenda. He brings a long record of accomplishment to this position. He has spent a quarter of a century in the news business. He's worked in all three major media -- print, radio and television. He started his career in 1979 as an editorial writer for The Greensboro Record in North Carolina. He's going to -- went on to write editorials for The Virginian-Pilot in Norfolk. He ran the editorial pages in both The Daily Press of Newport News and The Washington Times. He's written nationally syndicated columns for both The Detroit News and USA Today. During his career in print journalism, he's been cited for his work by the Society for Professional Journalists, the Associated Press, and Gannett. For seven years, he served as the host of "FOX News Sunday." Most recently, he reached Americans all across our country as the host of "The Tony Snow Show" on FOX News Radio, and "Weekend Live with Tony Snow" on the FOX News Channel. ... |
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17th May 2006, 10:13 AM | #38 |
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17th May 2006, 10:37 AM | #39 |
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17th May 2006, 10:43 AM | #40 |
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No thanks. Just because someone has used a word or phrase in an odious manner in the past does not remove it from my vocabulary. Being old-fashioned, I don't mind offering watermelon to my daughter's black playmates on 4th of July just because countless jokes have been made about the African-American's love for that fruit. Doing otherwise strikes me as niggardly.
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