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Tags assassinations , JFK assassination , John F. Kennedy , Kennedy conspiracies

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Old 12th February 2019, 01:04 PM   #2641
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
LOL, like there isn't some peripheral comment that they don't latch onto to and post garbage.
Exactly.
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Old 12th February 2019, 01:07 PM   #2642
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Oh no!!! That is a can of worms that should NOT be opened. The CT's will latch onto it and pages of useless posts will follow.
Actually that can should be opened early and often. Governor Connally was sitting in right jump seat, which is set inboard from the rear door, and sits lower than rear bench seat where JFK sat. This placement allowed the bullet to pass through JFK into the Governor in the way that it did.

It also puts Connally's big fat head in front of JFK, and makes a front, throat wound impossible from the Grassy Knoll.

The jump-seats should have sank the 2nd gunman nonsense on the spot, but CT's are like trying to contain diarrhea with chicken wire.
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Old 12th February 2019, 03:24 PM   #2643
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Actually that can should be opened early and often. Governor Connally was sitting in right jump seat, which is set inboard from the rear door, and sits lower than rear bench seat where JFK sat. This placement allowed the bullet to pass through JFK into the Governor in the way that it did.

It also puts Connally's big fat head in front of JFK, and makes a front, throat wound impossible from the Grassy Knoll.

The jump-seats should have sank the 2nd gunman nonsense on the spot, but CT's are like trying to contain diarrhea with chicken wire.
Seems straight forward to me.
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Old 14th February 2019, 01:43 AM   #2644
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
Thanks very much for that.

From it I get that Wecht thought there was some "evidence" that could be interpreted has a frontal shot. But this "evidence" is so weak has to be not very different from no evidence at all.

But in your quote I found this of interest.



Really!? Then what happened to the bullet and / or bullet fragments? Wow! This speculation is very little different from pure fantasy.

IIRC*, Wecht was convinced of a frontal shot by the "back and to left" thing and the photo showing the supposed "badgeman" before it was debunked. But he also was professional enough to admit that there was no medical evidence of a frontal shot and smart enough not to fall into the whole "all the evidence was changed by THEM using futuristic technology!" stupidity. So his attempt to reconcile the two was that there was a frontal shot that entered almost exactly where the shot from the rear blew out a moment later.


*It's been decades since I read Wecht's book, and I can't check because I don't believe I own it any longer, so human recollection being what it is, please take this with a grain of salt.
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Old 14th February 2019, 01:57 AM   #2645
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Actually that can should be opened early and often. Governor Connally was sitting in right jump seat, which is set inboard from the rear door, and sits lower than rear bench seat where JFK sat. This placement allowed the bullet to pass through JFK into the Governor in the way that it did.

It also puts Connally's big fat head in front of JFK, and makes a front, throat wound impossible from the Grassy Knoll.

The jump-seats should have sank the 2nd gunman nonsense on the spot, but CT's are like trying to contain diarrhea with chicken wire.

I can't claim that I was ever a CT, but the arrangement of the jump seats was one of the things that moved me from at least entertaining the possibility of a conspiracy to firmly in the Oswald at least did all the shooting camp. Once you see how JFK and Connally were actually sitting in relation to each other you realize that Oswald's bullet had no where else to go after exiting JFK's throat but right into Connally's back.

The fact that almost every conspiracy theorist has to move JFK and Connally in order for their own personal theories demonstrates that. If you read all the "classics" of the genre, or watch Stone's fantasy movie, you always see the same sketch of JFK and Connally sitting ramrod straight, Connally directly in front of JFK and at the same level. It's laughable, really.
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Old 14th February 2019, 07:26 AM   #2646
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Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
IIRC*, Wecht was convinced of a frontal shot by the "back and to left" thing and the photo showing the supposed "badgeman" before it was debunked. But he also was professional enough to admit that there was no medical evidence of a frontal shot and smart enough not to fall into the whole "all the evidence was changed by THEM using futuristic technology!" stupidity. So his attempt to reconcile the two was that there was a frontal shot that entered almost exactly where the shot from the rear blew out a moment later.


*It's been decades since I read Wecht's book, and I can't check because I don't believe I own it any longer, so human recollection being what it is, please take this with a grain of salt.
If your recollection of Wecht's book is accurate then he can't be taken seriously. First the "back and to left" thing merely shows he swallowed Hollywood physics in which bullets while hitting people throw them back guff. It looks great in a movie but in real life it's crap. I am amazed to this day that any so-called serious researcher would take that sort of nonsense seriously.

Secondly the whole idea that, "... there was a frontal shot that entered almost exactly where the shot from the rear blew out a moment later.", is indeed a fantasy designed to create an non-falsifiable explanation for the lack of evidence. Again why should we take this seriously? And of course it really doesn't tell us why the alleged shots bullet and / or bullet fragments were never found.
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Old 14th February 2019, 07:38 AM   #2647
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
If your recollection of Wecht's book is accurate then he can't be taken seriously. First the "back and to left" thing merely shows he swallowed Hollywood physics in which bullets while hitting people throw them back guff. It looks great in a movie but in real life it's crap. I am amazed to this day that any so-called serious researcher would take that sort of nonsense seriously.

Secondly the whole idea that, "... there was a frontal shot that entered almost exactly where the shot from the rear blew out a moment later.", is indeed a fantasy designed to create an non-falsifiable explanation for the lack of evidence. Again why should we take this seriously? And of course it really doesn't tell us why the alleged shots bullet and / or bullet fragments were never found.
In addition Jackie should have received mush more blood/matter onto her with a frontal shot.
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Old 14th February 2019, 07:39 AM   #2648
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Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
I can't claim that I was ever a CT, but the arrangement of the jump seats was one of the things that moved me from at least entertaining the possibility of a conspiracy to firmly in the Oswald at least did all the shooting camp. Once you see how JFK and Connally were actually sitting in relation to each other you realize that Oswald's bullet had no where else to go after exiting JFK's throat but right into Connally's back.

The fact that almost every conspiracy theorist has to move JFK and Connally in order for their own personal theories demonstrates that. If you read all the "classics" of the genre, or watch Stone's fantasy movie, you always see the same sketch of JFK and Connally sitting ramrod straight, Connally directly in front of JFK and at the same level. It's laughable, really.
The scene in the movie in which Garrison shows the position of Kennedy and Connally in the limousine for the jury makes me angry. Why? Because it is deliberately deceptive, i.e., a lie. Yes I know that movies are not bound to tell the truth about historical events, but in this case Stone kept saying he was telling the truth etc., and here he is telling an unmitigated lie to fit a CT narrative.

If Stone had said he was simply making an entertaining film mixing fantasy and truth - fine. But he didn't. The sad thing is Stone does this this throughout the film; it is filled with distortions and lies. The character assassination of Clay Shaw being by far the worst.

And all of this helps to largely ruin my enjoyment of the film. Sadly JFK is actually a really good movie with a great script, acting etc. If only Stone hadn't said and really pushed the guff that it was "true", and instead admitted it was to a large extent fiction / fantasy. Instead Stone just kept saying it's "true". Ugh!!!

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Old 14th February 2019, 05:10 PM   #2649
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
The scene in the movie in which Garrison shows the position of Kennedy and Connally in the limousine for the jury makes me angry. Why? Because it is deliberately deceptive, i.e., a lie. Yes I know that movies are not bound to tell the truth about historical events, but in this case Stone kept saying he was telling the truth etc., and here he is telling an unmitigated lie to fit a CT narrative.

If Stone had said he was simply making an entertaining film mixing fantasy and truth - fine. But he didn't. The sad thing is Stone does this this throughout the film; it is filled with distortions and lies. The character assassination of Clay Shaw being by far the worst.

And all of this helps to largely ruin my enjoyment of the film. Sadly JFK is actually a really good movie with a great script, acting etc. If only Stone hadn't said and really pushed the guff that it was "true", and instead admitted it was to a large extent fiction / fantasy. Instead Stone just kept saying it's "true". Ugh!!!
Just treat Stone's JFK as science fiction. If you pay attention you'll notice that he throws ALL the CT's in there (with the exception of the UFO thing).

The mini-series adaptation of Stephen King's 11/22/63 is excellent. It puts you on the ground in Dallas Texas for an entire year, and Daniel Weber brings Oswald to life. Spoiler: Oswald did it.
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Old 14th February 2019, 08:35 PM   #2650
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I'm really glad I never watched JFK.
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Old 14th February 2019, 08:41 PM   #2651
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
I'm really glad I never watched JFK.
When I saw it in the theatre, the entire audience applauded at the end of the movie (except for me). I couldn't believe it.

When I tried to watch it on DVD with my wife, I couldn't get through the first half hour .... I kept pausing it and explaining what actually happened and why what Stone was showing was false history.

I've never watched it all the way through since that first time.

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Old 14th February 2019, 11:07 PM   #2652
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
When I saw it in the theatre, the entire audience applauded at the end of the movie (except for me). I couldn't believe it.

When I tried to watch it on DVD with my wife, I couldn't get through the first half hour .... I kept pausing it and explaining what actually happened and why what Stone was showing was false history.

I've never watched it all the way through since that first time.

Hank
I have seen a few outtakes, principally the back and left rant of Kevin Costner.
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:33 PM   #2653
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The movie on it's own is classic Oliver Stone; the lead character - Jim Garrison - toes the line until he has his "eyes opened", and from there it's Don Quixote, or Serpico depending on your point of view. One man takes on the establishment and takes a moral victory. All of his movies revolve around that theme.

JFK has an outstanding cast, amazing editing, and a phenomenal script. The problem some of us here have with the movie is similar to the physics guys reactions to science fiction movies where the ship goes faster than light, or has a worm hole, or has solved gravity.

The irony was that watching it on the big screen and seeing the Zapruder Film super enhanced on a massive scale was where I began to question the second gunman theory because the detail showed the skull flap blowing forward and not backward.
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:35 PM   #2654
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
I'm really glad I never watched JFK.
You missed Kevin Costner's awful southern accent.
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Old 15th February 2019, 07:32 AM   #2655
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Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
When I saw it in the theatre, the entire audience applauded at the end of the movie (except for me). I couldn't believe it.

When I tried to watch it on DVD with my wife, I couldn't get through the first half hour .... I kept pausing it and explaining what actually happened and why what Stone was showing was false history.

I've never watched it all the way through since that first time.

Hank
I agree that the film is hard to sit through because of the lies / distortions. However I could tolerate those if Stone had made it clear that his film was intended to be entertaining and not real history and hence is full of fantasy for cinematic purposes. After all, all sorts of films based on historical events are full of distortions etc. For example Spartacus. However Stone worked really hard to make it difficult to enjoy the film because he kept insisting it was "true". The result is, from me at least, extreme annoyance with the movie. Which is a pity because it actually is a real good movie. The result is discussions of JFK usually don't talk about the film has a film but about how "true" it is, and for that we can largely blame Stone.

And because Stone kept and keeps claiming the film is "true" his character assassination of Clay Shaw, which is utterly disgusting, is unforgivable.

Last edited by Pacal; 15th February 2019 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 15th February 2019, 10:18 AM   #2656
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
You missed Kevin Costner's awful southern accent.
LOL I did see outtakes especially his back and to the left rants.
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Old 15th February 2019, 10:19 AM   #2657
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
I agree that the film is hard to sit through because of the lies / distortions. However I could tolerate those if Stone had made it clear that his film was intended to be entertaining and not real history and hence is full of fantasy for cinematic purposes. After all, all sorts of films based on historical events are full of distortions etc. For example Spartacus. However Stone worked really hard to make it difficult to enjoy the film because he kept insisting it was "true". The result is, from me at least, extreme annoyance with the movie. Which is a pity because it actually is a real good movie. The result is discussions of JFK usually don't talk about the film has a film but about how "true" it is, and for that we can largely blame Stone.

And because Stone kept and keeps claiming the film is "true" his character assassination of Clay Shaw, which is utterly disgusting, is unforgivable.

And in the irony of ironies, CTs almost universally claim Oswald gets a pass and should be considered innocent because he was never convicted of the assassination in a court of law. Yet Clay Shaw, the one man on the planet who was tried and found not guilty in the assassination of JFK, gets no such pass from CTs, who almost universally condemn him as part of 'The Conspiracy'.

It takes some real convoluted thinking to get to Shaw is guilty despite his not guilty verdict and the lack of any evidence against him, but Oswald should be considered innocent because he was never tried and the mountain of evidence against him should be set aside.

And it should be mentioned that Oliver Stone, like most CTs, conveniently forgot that Lee Harvey Oswald was named in Garrison's indictment of Clay Shaw as a co-conspirator (along with David Ferrie). Ferrie's only crime was dying of a brain aneurysm before the charges were brought, which meant Garrison could name him as a co-conspirator, but not actually mount a case against Ferrie.

Stone, in making his case for Oswald's innocence in his film, had to ignore the hard cold fact that the hero of his movie, Jim Garrison, listed Oswald as a co-conspirator in Shaw's indictment.

http://www.jfk-online.com/state.html

Read Garrison's own introductory remarks to the jury:
"The defendant, CLAY L, SHAW, is charged in a bill of indictment with having willfully and unlawfully conspired with DAVID W, FERRIE, LEE HARVEY OSWALD and others to murder JOHN F. KENNEDY. The crime of criminal conspiracy is to find in the Criminal Code of Louisiana ..."
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Hanks ”method” [of requesting evidence] is not going to [get me to] provide any evidence since it has a completely different purpose. To create the the illusion of me not providing evidence when requested to do so.
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Old 15th February 2019, 12:41 PM   #2658
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The one good thing to come from that movie was the release of the assassination documents. The movie kicked that into high gear.
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Old 15th February 2019, 02:54 PM   #2659
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
The one good thing to come from that movie was the release of the assassination documents. The movie kicked that into high gear.
Now if only we could get the Democrats to harass the Kennedy Foundation/Heirs to release all the sealed items of the autopsy.
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Old 15th February 2019, 07:35 PM   #2660
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Now if only we could get the Democrats to harass the Kennedy Foundation/Heirs to release all the sealed items of the autopsy.
That would be a great way to lose campaign funding. Nobody messes with the Kennedys, and there would be no upside for this specific case. While I agree that material should be accessible to all Americans, the fact is that there is no way to force the issue without looking like a heartless ghoul.

On the bright side, I think Caroline could be flexible on this issue, but in the end we'll just have to wait. My guess is that, just as we've seen with the document release, the pictures won't tell us anything new...

...and they won't slow down the CTist community one bit.
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Old 16th February 2019, 03:24 AM   #2661
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
I agree that the film is hard to sit through because of the lies / distortions.
Nonetheless, as I have stated here before, I make an effort to watch it every year in November, as near to the 22nd as I can. I used to be a JFK CT, and I do this for two reasons

1. as a form of penance (how could I have been such an idiot?)

2. to give myself an annual stark reminder of what Stupid looks like.
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Old 16th February 2019, 04:40 AM   #2662
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nonetheless, as I have stated here before, I make an effort to watch it every year in November, as near to the 22nd as I can. I used to be a JFK CT, and I do this for two reasons

1. as a form of penance (how could I have been such an idiot?)

2. to give myself an annual stark reminder of what Stupid looks like.
I didn't know you were a convert also.
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Old 16th February 2019, 04:54 AM   #2663
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
That would be a great way to lose campaign funding. Nobody messes with the Kennedys, and there would be no upside for this specific case. While I agree that material should be accessible to all Americans, the fact is that there is no way to force the issue without looking like a heartless ghoul.

On the bright side, I think Caroline could be flexible on this issue, but in the end we'll just have to wait. My guess is that, just as we've seen with the document release, the pictures won't tell us anything new...

...and they won't slow down the CTist community one bit.
While they indeed have a lot of clout, it isn't near the amount/concentration as it was in the 60's. With the passing of Edward we are now in the grandkids cycle of distribution and deflation.

I don't view the release as ghoulish, but more a freedom of information.


And yes I agree that will not slow the CT crowd down, in fact when the material is released the CT crowd will no doubt find new and "compelling" anomalies to justify their ignorant rants.
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Old 16th February 2019, 12:02 PM   #2664
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
While they indeed have a lot of clout, it isn't near the amount/concentration as it was in the 60's. With the passing of Edward we are now in the grandkids cycle of distribution and deflation.

I don't view the release as ghoulish, but more a freedom of information.


And yes I agree that will not slow the CT crowd down, in fact when the material is released the CT crowd will no doubt find new and "compelling" anomalies to justify their ignorant rants.
I believe we will see those materials sooner than later. Enough time has passed, the world is a harder, more calloused place, and the family may just decide it's better to release it all than keeping it under wraps.

For anyone not familiar, this is from the National Archives FAQ section:

Quote:
The autopsy photographs and X-rays of President Kennedy were donated to the National Archives by the Kennedy family by an agreement dated October 29, 1966. This agreement limits access to such materials to: (1) persons authorized to act for a Committee of Congress, a Presidential Commission, or any other official agency of the Federal government having authority to investigate matters relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and to (2) recognized experts in the field of pathology or related areas of science and technology whose applications are approved by the Kennedy family representatives, Nicole Seligman and Kevin Baine .
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/faqs

The thing people have to remember, and CTists always ignore is the Jackie-Factor. Jackie Kennedy was to one who demanded that JFK's body be flown out of Dallas before the locals to do the autopsy. She was the one who chose Bethesda as the autopsy site. She was the one who place limitations on what the pathologists could do during the autopsy. She was to one who made sure JFK was in the ground three days later per Catholic funeral ritual. She was to one - with RFK's help - who had the brain and skull fragments interred with the body when it was reburied at its determinant plot of land at Arlington.

Nobody was going to tell her no.

Not Johnson, not Hoover (whose FBI had failed), and certainly not the Secret Service (who had also failed).

The Texas trip was Jackie's first after her miscarriage and that carried emotional weight even before the President was shot.

If anyone thinks things would be different today I point to 9-11 where so much of the investigation was stunted out of "respect for the families" so they wouldn't be forced to relive the gruesome details.

For the record, I'm all for 100% disclosure as it usually undercuts CT's before they can get legs.
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Old 16th February 2019, 02:42 PM   #2665
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I believe we will see those materials sooner than later. Enough time has passed, the world is a harder, more calloused place, and the family may just decide it's better to release it all than keeping it under wraps.

For anyone not familiar, this is from the National Archives FAQ section:



https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/faqs

The thing people have to remember, and CTists always ignore is the Jackie-Factor. Jackie Kennedy was to one who demanded that JFK's body be flown out of Dallas before the locals to do the autopsy. She was the one who chose Bethesda as the autopsy site. She was the one who place limitations on what the pathologists could do during the autopsy. She was to one who made sure JFK was in the ground three days later per Catholic funeral ritual. She was to one - with RFK's help - who had the brain and skull fragments interred with the body when it was reburied at its determinant plot of land at Arlington.

Nobody was going to tell her no.

Not Johnson, not Hoover (whose FBI had failed), and certainly not the Secret Service (who had also failed).

The Texas trip was Jackie's first after her miscarriage and that carried emotional weight even before the President was shot.

If anyone thinks things would be different today I point to 9-11 where so much of the investigation was stunted out of "respect for the families" so they wouldn't be forced to relive the gruesome details.

For the record, I'm all for 100% disclosure as it usually undercuts CT's before they can get legs.
I knew you are in favor of 100% disclosure, one of the reasons I posted that. Although we can't affect any change.
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Old 16th February 2019, 03:40 PM   #2666
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Change will come organically. First, lone gunman causing all kinds of mass turmoil is now common place in this country. The counter CT's about crisis actors, and staged incidents has worked against the CT community (and they are a community). The idea of one guy with a high powered rifle killing the President is not as inconceivable today as it was in the 1960's.

Second, the many books about JFK's weaknesses have made him mortal.

Third, Youtube is starting to fill with 6.5 Creedmore comparisons thanks to USSOCOM adopting the round for its snipers. The fact that the 6.5 Creedmore is smaller and less powerful than the Carcano round will help fill in the spaces for the many shooters who are unfamiliar with that size bullet. The Carcano will become more difficult to write off as a POS rifle, and instead will be accepted as the long-range beast that it is.
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Old 17th February 2019, 07:31 AM   #2667
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Change will come organically. First, lone gunman causing all kinds of mass turmoil is now common place in this country. The counter CT's about crisis actors, and staged incidents has worked against the CT community (and they are a community). The idea of one guy with a high powered rifle killing the President is not as inconceivable today as it was in the 1960's.
...
The disclosure of all the autopsy will not stop the CT's, no it will add more ammunition to their "it should have been done like this", "spots on the X-rays", "how could they have missed this", "why did they investigate this", "they should have taken more/better images" and probably more that I missed.
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Old 17th February 2019, 12:27 PM   #2668
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
The disclosure of all the autopsy will not stop the CT's, no it will add more ammunition to their "it should have been done like this", "spots on the X-rays", "how could they have missed this", "why did they investigate this", "they should have taken more/better images" and probably more that I missed.
CTists already have their list for this event made in advance, and we've read it here over the years:

1. Key photos are missing.
2. X-rays are missing.
3. X-rays are fakes.
4. X-rays are altered.
5. Photos have been altered.

CTists never back down, that's why they're fun.
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Old 17th February 2019, 01:03 PM   #2669
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
CTists already have their list for this event made in advance, and we've read it here over the years:

1. Key photos are missing.
2. X-rays are missing.
3. X-rays are fakes.
4. X-rays are altered.
5. Photos have been altered.

CTists never back down, that's why they're fun.
In all the hocused theories that are believed, instead of facts that ignored.
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Old 17th February 2019, 10:33 PM   #2670
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I think it's okay to like Oliver Stone's JFK for what it is: a good movie.

My thinking is this; the play-turned-movie Amadeus is in fact a piece based on a conspiracy theory that Antonio Salieri poisoned Mozart, a theory that arose soon after Mozart's death that was designed to go after the Italians who regulated the Austrian music scene of the time. Russian poet & playwright, Alexander Pushkin sealed the theory when he wrote a play titled Mozart and Salieri with the accusation of murder being the central plot point. This would later become Amadeus which became a Tony Award winning play, and an Academy Award winning film.

It's a great movie with great characters, but not a lot truth. As long as Amadeus isn't considered a documentary we can watch, and enjoy it with a clear conscience. Same with JFK.

It would make a cool Broadway musical some day.
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Old Yesterday, 01:53 PM   #2671
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I think it's okay to like Oliver Stone's JFK for what it is: a good movie.

My thinking is this; the play-turned-movie Amadeus is in fact a piece based on a conspiracy theory that Antonio Salieri poisoned Mozart, a theory that arose soon after Mozart's death that was designed to go after the Italians who regulated the Austrian music scene of the time. Russian poet & playwright, Alexander Pushkin sealed the theory when he wrote a play titled Mozart and Salieri with the accusation of murder being the central plot point. This would later become Amadeus which became a Tony Award winning play, and an Academy Award winning film.

It's a great movie with great characters, but not a lot truth. As long as Amadeus isn't considered a documentary we can watch, and enjoy it with a clear conscience. Same with JFK.

It would make a cool Broadway musical some day.

^^THIS^^ And the fact that I refuse to believe that Mozart acted in any way shape or form like a hyped-out on Meth, over-the-top Mark Hamill.
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Old Yesterday, 06:55 PM   #2672
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
^^THIS^^ And the fact that I refuse to believe that Mozart acted in any way shape or form like a hyped-out on Meth, over-the-top Mark Hamill.
I don't know if the man was hyper, but he loved to have fun, and had a filthy mind:

https://www.thepiano.sg/piano/read/m...logical-humour

(link is very NSFW).
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