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29th January 2013, 12:08 PM | #81 |
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29th January 2013, 12:09 PM | #82 |
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A hundred years of hearing about Nelson meant that any result short of a brilliant victory was going to leave Jellicoe open to abuse. Unfair but I'm not sure if it was avoidable.
As the RN couldn't win the war but could definitely lose it... he achieved what was needed. |
29th January 2013, 12:11 PM | #83 |
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29th January 2013, 12:12 PM | #84 |
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29th January 2013, 12:12 PM | #85 |
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http://www.amazon.com/Vimy-Pierre-Berton/dp/0385658427
Vimy Ridge put the clever Canadian military on the world map, it did! With "only" 10,000 Canadians lost! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vimy_Ridge Brit: "Those plucky colonists, what were they ...yes, Ca Ca-nadians, yes, harump ... I mean honestly ... well, they put on a good show!" |
29th January 2013, 12:30 PM | #86 |
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She rather objected to anyone wanting to read about warfare, particularly trench warfare, on the grounds that she "had seen lots of wounded men coming back from it" (WW1). As I said, she didn't read the subtitle.
She was also influenced by the fact that her husband (my father in law) had a rough time as a POW of the Japanese in WW2. She was also in London during the Blitz. As a matter of interest, I was working with the UK military establishment during the Vietnam affair, and we heard a number of reports (from reliable sources) that both sides tended to make a lot of noise when on patrol because neither wanted to encounter the other and be forced to fight and sustain casualties. Generally, it seems, it's the politicians and Generals who want to fight - as long as it's not them getting killed. At least war in the Middle Ages meant that the king and his entourage ran the same risks as the PBI. Actually, probably more risk since they were easily identifiable and there was the principle of hit the leaders and the rest will run away. |
29th January 2013, 12:34 PM | #87 |
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Anybody else read Castles of Steel?
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29th January 2013, 12:45 PM | #88 |
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Got halfway through and then distracted by something else. I like the way he builds the tension.... you can feel the exhilaration as one squadron smashes through the waves catching its prey, guns trained to their highest elevation, massive clouds of black smoke belching into the grey skies....
Great stuff. |
29th January 2013, 12:48 PM | #89 |
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29th January 2013, 12:53 PM | #90 |
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Technical Tactical victory for the Germans....they sank more tonnage then the Brits..but strategic victory for the British, since the German never again made a major sally with the Battle Fleet outside of German Coastal waters.
Kind of like the Coral Sea in 1942, where the Japanese won a tactical victory but suffered a strategic loss because they abandoned the amphibious assault on Port Moresby. |
29th January 2013, 12:54 PM | #91 |
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But the first day of the Somme was highly atypical of the battle (out of a four month battle costing 400,000 casualties, 60,000 fell on the first day.... 15% of the loss in less than 1% of the duration). (Of course the first day is all the "man in the street knows about").
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29th January 2013, 12:54 PM | #92 |
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Quote:
At the end of the Day the German Fleet ran away and the only time it came out of port again was to surrender and scuttle itself. |
29th January 2013, 12:54 PM | #93 |
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29th January 2013, 01:06 PM | #94 |
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29th January 2013, 01:07 PM | #95 |
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29th January 2013, 01:09 PM | #96 |
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29th January 2013, 01:15 PM | #97 |
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WWI may just be one of the most poorly understood wars in history. A prime example is the "get out of your trench and walk towards the enemy" representation of warfare. There was actually a very sound and effective reason for walking towards the enemy. It was called the creeping barrage. WWI was notable for its introduction of incredibly dense and deep fortifications, which were impossible for infantry to penetrate. The answer was artillery; used not as a weapon against the enemy but as a tool to clear defenses and as a shield to protect your troops. The tactic was refined to incredible complexity as the war progressed, but the basic premise was that you would put a wall of artillery in front of your infantry to destroy obstacles such as wire, and to shield your troops from enemy fire (the artillery explosions destroy incoming rounds). This required careful timing between the artillery and infantry because your infantry had to be quite close behind the artillery barrage for it to be effective. So you worked off a walking pace, with the barrage lifting by 50m or whatever as the infantry neared it. This would continue until the infantry were within a short sprint of the enemy trenches at which point the barrage would lift to the rear of the enemy lines (to disrupt any counter-attack) and the infantry would storm the enemy trenches and set up defenses. Infantry that ran at the enemy were liable to enter the barrage zone and be blown to pieces by their own guns, or pass through the barrage zone and be exposed to enemy fire. The problem, of course, is that this was new technology being developed in rather trying conditions. There was no way to communicate between the infantry and artillery once the attack began. If all went according to plan it was remarkably successful (responsible for many of the greatest victories of the war) but if anything arose that disrupted the plan it rapidly fell to pieces. This was further complicated by the conditions. One of the best examples of the contrast between a successful operation and an unsuccessful operation can be seen in 3rd Ypres. During early battles, in favourable conditions (Messines, Menin Rd, Polygon Wood and Broodseinde) the allied forces (particularly the two ANZAC Corps) easily defeated German defenses time and time again using creeping barrage tactics. However at Passchendaele all of the factors came together to undermine the tactics; the weather produced thick mud which had severe effects; 1) The artillery couldn't move guns and ammunition forward in time for the attack due to severe conditions behind the lines, thus there were insufficient guns for an effective barrage and a lack of ammunition to maintain it. 2) The mud meant the guns couldn't be kept stable, and had to be realigned after every single round. This made providing an accurate and constant barrage totally impossible. 3) The mud meant the few rounds that did land on target failed to destroy obstacles; many rounds simple vanished into the mud, unexploded. 4) The mud slowed the infantry down so that they couldn't keep up with the barrage, even had it been effectively executed. As a result, you had a massacre. The New Zealand Division - which was considered an elite unit and had performed with stunning success in the early battles of the campaign were cut to pieces, suffering the single greatest loss of life by any cause in the country's history - we lost approximately 1% of the entire country's population in the space of one hour, with another 2% of the country's population injured. |
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29th January 2013, 01:16 PM | #98 |
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Some fun reading here: http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/USN/Navy/
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29th January 2013, 01:28 PM | #99 |
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He was pouting in a dugout across from the English positions at Neuve Chapelle IIRC, being all Hitlery.
I've been tinkering on a WW1-based script for some time now, centered around the Xmas Truce and the battle of NC. I'm a firm believer that centuries don't begin and end neatly at the turn of the next XX00 year, but that they have their own character (the 19th century beginning with the 1789 and ending with World War One, for instance). I argue that the last gasp of the 19th century was the 1914 Xmas Truce - it certainly wasn't repeated in 1915. Something changed between those two holidays, and I think it was a combination of realizing that this was going to take a lot longer than originally thought, and based on the casualties in the push to capture Aubers Ridge (I'm basing the latter on Vera Brittain's war diary entry on the subject). |
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29th January 2013, 02:09 PM | #100 |
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Then there is Gallipoli...the text book example of how NOT to conduct an Amphibious Operation.
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29th January 2013, 02:19 PM | #101 |
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29th January 2013, 02:23 PM | #102 |
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29th January 2013, 02:30 PM | #103 |
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Also an early manifestation of the primary strategic delusion/mistake on the British side during the war: The "Easterners" and their idea (aka wishful thinking) that Germany could be defeated by kicking away its 'props'.
IIRC, Britain raised something like 8 million soldiers (I think this includes the Empire/Dominions). About 5 million went to France, about 2.5 million to fight the Ottomans. What a waste of resources. (The Germans must have been ecstatic over not having another couple of million 'Tommies' on the Western Front). |
29th January 2013, 02:40 PM | #104 |
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Well, it was a strategic delusion of Churchill in particular. And in the next war too.
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29th January 2013, 02:41 PM | #105 |
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29th January 2013, 02:43 PM | #106 |
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"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
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29th January 2013, 02:45 PM | #107 |
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29th January 2013, 02:50 PM | #108 |
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"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
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29th January 2013, 03:14 PM | #109 |
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Yes and if you look you'll find that that daily casualty rate in the Normandy campaign as a whole averaged out to about the same as the Somme barring the first day. In WWI it was the French and British who took the bulk of the casualties on the Entente side as the Western Front dominated the war; not the Eastern as in WWII. Essentially for four straight years the British faced the enemy in the main theatre of combat. In WWII the harsh reality is that until D-Day they had been largely engaged in sideshows in the Med and North Africa with the USSR bearing the brunt of the losses.
Add to that communications that was either telephones or runners carrying messages, an Army that had gone from 6 divisions in 1914 to 60 by 1916 in a country that had no compulsory military service to create a deep reserve of experienced men. Also the notion that they just bludgeoned away for four years is a myth; the British learned and innovated even during the Somme campaign, which the British didn't want to fight but felt compelled to prevent the Germans pouring yet more troops into the fighting at Verdun. |
29th January 2013, 03:18 PM | #110 |
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One of the reasons Lloyd George so enthusiastically put the boot into Haig, after he was safely dead of course, was because he had the temerity to prove LG wrong about those Eastern ideas. Along the way of course LG helped bolster the 'stab in the back' myth by playing up the role of the unrest in Germany in ending the war.
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29th January 2013, 03:23 PM | #111 |
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29th January 2013, 03:30 PM | #112 |
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29th January 2013, 03:57 PM | #113 |
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Never underestimate the appeal of a phrase
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29th January 2013, 03:59 PM | #114 |
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29th January 2013, 04:05 PM | #115 |
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Exactly. Several Historians think that Churchill's basis strategy of sending a naval force to Constantinople was workable,but was messed up in the execution.
IMHO You cannot blame Chuchill for the fiasco that was the landing at Gallipoli since early on the Army pretty much took over the planning once landings were considerin necessary. One of the great tragedies of the war is that from all accounts the first attempt to force the Straits by naval forces alone was very very near sucess when the admiral, upset by a couple of losses due to mines, basically abandoned the whole operation. One of the problems with Navies is that early on in the war, they seem releuctant to admit that you are not going to win a war at sea without naval losses. |
29th January 2013, 04:05 PM | #116 |
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About gas in WW1: The old* Ballantine Books History of the Violent Century Weapons Book # 43, Gas, is a good read. Ian V. Hogg was the author, and he couldn't write a dull sentence. The war gases of that period were perhaps not the ghastly weapons we suppose; Hogg makes a case that in fact they incapacitated rather than killed wholesale. The stuff we have today certainly makes them look tame -- well, tamer.
* 1975, a year I recall in detail. I'm pretty old too, innit? |
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29th January 2013, 04:11 PM | #117 |
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Here's the link to the guy's page who posted them :
http://www.youtube.com/user/snapey82/videos?view=0 |
29th January 2013, 04:26 PM | #118 |
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The Royal Newfoundland Regiment suffered similarly at Beaument Hamel July 1, 1916.
780 troops started the attack (22 officers and 758 NCOs and men) and after the attack there were only 110 NCOs and men uninjured (all the officers were either dead or wounded). Given Newfoundland's population at the time (240,000) this was a significant loss for the Dominion. It also lead to a lot of resentment in Newfoundland after they joined Canada in 1949 - as Beaument-Hamel falls on the same date as Canada Day. |
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29th January 2013, 05:17 PM | #119 |
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29th January 2013, 05:18 PM | #120 |
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No, running away is usually called a defeat. In a tactical sense the RN won, they were left in charge of the North Sea. By tradition the RN wasn't afraid of losing ships and were willing to sacrifice whatever units they needed to in order to win. Germany wasn't, that is why they broke off action. Although not as many German ships sank quite a few were so badly damaged as to be all but wrecks when they reached port.
What was a tactical victory was the raid on the North East Coast, German ships sailed close inshore and bombarded coastal towns, escaping before they were intercepted. |
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