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Old 23rd March 2020, 02:14 PM   #1601
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm thinking restrictions at the federal level probably don't make a lot of sense. The states can put in the restrictions that best fit their own situations, and the federal government can support the state efforts. Shutting down the entire country wholesale from Washington, D.C. probably would be worse than just letting the disease run its course without any restrictions at all..
Why?

We know that the disease is highly transmittable, and can grow at an exponential rate. We know that it's affected every state. The U.S. does not have any sort of border control between states. Everything SHOULD be locked down, and if you leave things to the states, there is always a chance that some idiot state will decide "No big deal, no need to shut things down", which will allow that state to become a reservoir.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 02:19 PM   #1602
dudalb
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm thinking restrictions at the federal level probably don't make a lot of sense. The states can put in the restrictions that best fit their own situations, and the federal government can support the state efforts. Shutting down the entire country wholesale from Washington, D.C. probably would be worse than just letting the disease run its course without any restrictions at all.

But "without any restrictions at all" is a strawman. State and local governments have not been shy about putting in whatever restrictions they find necessary for their communities.
Viruses don't recognize state borders.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Last edited by zooterkin; 25th March 2020 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 02:29 PM   #1603
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So, don't think this has been mentioned yet...

From: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...dc-embed-quick
The Trump administration told the United States’ embed at the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) that the position would be defunded, causing her to leave her post in July 2019...Under normal circumstances, the embed likely would have passed information about the novel virus to US officials. Instead, Chinese officials were able for weeks to conceal the virus and the threat it posed...When asked about his administration’s role in this decision during Sunday’s daily coronavirus press conference, Trump called on US CDC Director Robert Redfield to answer the question before attacking the press...

So, yet another thing that the Trump administration has done to make the problem potentially worse...

So to list them:

- Anyone who participated in drills on how to deal with pandemics during the transition period is no longer available in their position
- Removed the Pandemic response unit from the department of homeland security
- Attempted to reduce funding to the CDC (fortunately, he was blocked from doing so)
- Cut the position of a person working in china who could have provided warnings regarding COVID-19
- Made false claims about how the "virus was under control" and "cases would drop to 0"
- Also made false claims about how "Anyone who wants to get tested could be"
- Slow roll-out of testing means that the U.S. has an incomplete picture of who is infected
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Old 23rd March 2020, 02:34 PM   #1604
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Shutting down the entire country wholesale from Washington, D.C. probably would be worse than just letting the disease run its course without any restrictions at all.

It would be interesting to hear what this probability is based on ...
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Old 23rd March 2020, 02:57 PM   #1605
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Shutting down the entire country wholesale from Washington, D.C. probably would be worse than just letting the disease run its course without any restrictions at all.
Any evidence for that?
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 03:09 PM   #1606
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CNN, March 23, 2020: "Fauci on Trump: 'I can't jump in front of the microphone and push him down'"
Well, he should at least give it a try ...
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I AGREE

This situation makes it ever more obvious that capitalist economy isn't there for the people; people are there for the capitalist economy.
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Last edited by dann; 23rd March 2020 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 03:16 PM   #1607
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm thinking restrictions at the federal level probably don't make a lot of sense. The states can put in the restrictions that best fit their own situations, and the federal government can support the state efforts. Shutting down the entire country wholesale from Washington, D.C. probably would be worse than just letting the disease run its course without any restrictions at all.

But "without any restrictions at all" is a strawman. State and local governments have not been shy about putting in whatever restrictions they find necessary for their communities.
What really ought to be happening, is a group of experts, especially epidemiologists, ought to be sitting around a table (or maybe make it an online meeting, because, ya know....) talking about what sort of restrictions could be in place, and what difference those restrictions would make. And economists should be there, to talk about how much damage that would do. They should be discussing the tradeoffs. They should be asking about mitigation measures. If someone says, "If we had ventilators, the death rate could be lowered to ….." and they should be able to call out some manufacturing people and say, "Ok guys, how many can we possibly get, and how soon?" and those guys should go off and work the problem for a day, staying up very late, and the next day if they have to, and report back to the guys around the big (virtual) table.

Of course, they have to go into real detail. No handwaving. Actually count casualties with and without masks, with and without ventilators. Figuring out how many we can possibly make if we pulled out all the stops.

And this might take a few hundred people total, and they come up with a plan that has a reasonable, but realistic, tradeoff. That might means that in the end they say that 40,000 people will die (twice as bad as a really bad flu year), but businesses won't go out of business, or we could save 20,000 of them, but throw 1/3 of the population out of work, collapse the banking system, and generally reduce the economy to rubble. Or maybe they say we do nothing and we end up with 50,000? 100,000? 1,000,000? dead.

Whatever. Obviously, I'm making up numbers. I don't have a big conference room to get all those people together.

There's one man who could make that happen.

Bummer. He's busy tweeting that the media is being unfair, and that miracle cures are around the corner, and we have plenty of test kits.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 23rd March 2020 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 03:49 PM   #1608
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I repeat my advice:if you are concerned about the future of the United States, and don't want go down without a fight;give up your pacfism, get a rifle and learn how to use it.
I think COVID-19 is too small to shoot. Better just wash your hands.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 04:26 PM   #1609
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
This situation makes it ever more obvious that capitalist economy isn't there for the people; people are there for the capitalist economy.
You're sounding more and more like the dissident right by the day.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 04:45 PM   #1610
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(cue deep, masculine "announcer" voice)

And now, my fellow Americans, more inspirational and profound words from the President of the United States:

Trump:
Quote:
Our country wasn't built to be shut down. This is not a country that was built for this.
ETA: Does he think any country was built to be shut down?

Last edited by Stacyhs; 23rd March 2020 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 04:49 PM   #1611
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Whiny little punk, isn’t he.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 05:00 PM   #1612
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He hasn't said as much, but I've seen hints in several stories that White House people are looking to ease social distancing restrictions in areas not hit hard by the virus.


In other news, federal authorities are going to allow weaker locks on any barn door through which no horses have escaped.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 05:03 PM   #1613
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
He hasn't said as much, but I've seen hints in several stories that White House people are looking to ease social distancing restrictions in areas not hit hard by the virus.


In other news, federal authorities are going to allow weaker locks on any barn door through which no horses have escaped.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 05:21 PM   #1614
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How many boomers will be sacrificed so billionaires can hold onto their money?
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Old 23rd March 2020, 05:28 PM   #1615
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
How many boomers will be sacrificed so billionaires can hold onto their money?
In USA?

About 1.2 million.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 05:46 PM   #1616
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'll partially agree with this. North Dakota has 30 cases, none in my county, and all over an hour away. I'm all for being safe but locking me in my house, at this point (even though I can do my job remotely), wouldn't provide anyone, any relief. I will let my state make that decision if/when it's needed but if the federal government closed us down it would cause us much unneeded damage. Chances are NoDak will never see infection rates at the level of NY, CA, etc. have been experiencing them. I like the 'leave it to the states' approach on this one.
The low infection rate for some states might be illusory, due to insufficient testing and/or a bit later start in the virus getting a foothold. It's premature at best to derive false comfort, and dangerous at worst.

Once a pandemic has taken root somewhere, the only safe course is that a *coordinated*, system wide response be instituted *everywhere* ASAP. The experts are saying this, for good reason. State borders are just invisible lines in the imagination.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 05:48 PM   #1617
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All Sceintest and medical expert absent from today's conference.
In ther worse, Jare Kushner is running the show.
America is doomed, folks.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 05:59 PM   #1618
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
In USA?

About 1.2 million.
Yep, Trump and his billionaire sociopath backers are running the sums on economic hurt of lockdowns versus letting this thing burn through the aged proles while the younger workers get back to the jobs that fund their gold dunny lifestyles.

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Old 23rd March 2020, 06:07 PM   #1619
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Trump speaking of chloroquine, the anti-malarial drug that he's been touting with false claims:
Quote:
When you go with a brand-new drug, you don’t know that that’s going to happen. You have to see and you have to go — long test. But this has been used in different forms — very powerful drug — in different forms. And it’s shown very encouraging — very, very encouraging early results. And we’re going to be able to make that drug available almost immediately. And that’s where the FDA has been so great. They — they’ve gone through the approval process; it’s been approved. And they did it — they took it down from many, many months to immediate. So we’re going to be able to make that drug available by prescription or states.
1. The results have not been "very, very encouraging". There was one very small study
in France with some encouraging signs that it may shorten the
contagious period and/or reduce the viral load in the body. But certainly, Trump's
"gut feeling" that this could be a "game changer" is not based on much existing
medical evidence.

2. Chloroquine has been available for about 70 years and was FDA approved long ago. It
most certainly has not been approve for Covid 19 use.

In Nigeria, where malaria is common, the cost of the drug has skyrocketed over 400% because people think Trump has said it cures Covid 19. In this country, a couple overdosed on the drug. The husband died and the wife is in the ICU. Words matter, Donnie. Words matter. So shut the **** up.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 06:09 PM   #1620
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
He's not wrong.
Criticism =/= hatred.

So yeah, he is wrong. And so are you.

Quote:
This is assuming that the premise is false and Trump is only 'seeing' it because of his narcissism. Of course, if you don't believe it, you can check for yourself or look at one of the studies that have been done (ex.), but it's really, really obvious.
The study you linked concludes that The New York Times mentions Trump a lot.

Okay... and?

He breaks every norm and convention there is. He says stupid and offensive things the way other people breathe. Heís a non-stop rage-Tweeter.

Behavior like that in a world leader tends to make the news.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 06:25 PM   #1621
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
What really ought to be happening, is a group of experts, especially epidemiologists, ought to be sitting around a table (or maybe make it an online meeting, because, ya know....) talking about what sort of restrictions could be in place, and what difference those restrictions would make. And economists should be there, to talk about how much damage that would do. They should be discussing the tradeoffs. They should be asking about mitigation measures. If someone says, "If we had ventilators, the death rate could be lowered to ….." and they should be able to call out some manufacturing people and say, "Ok guys, how many can we possibly get, and how soon?" and those guys should go off and work the problem for a day, staying up very late, and the next day if they have to, and report back to the guys around the big (virtual) table.

Of course, they have to go into real detail. No handwaving. Actually count casualties with and without masks, with and without ventilators. Figuring out how many we can possibly make if we pulled out all the stops.

And this might take a few hundred people total, and they come up with a plan that has a reasonable, but realistic, tradeoff. That might means that in the end they say that 40,000 people will die (twice as bad as a really bad flu year), but businesses won't go out of business, or we could save 20,000 of them, but throw 1/3 of the population out of work, collapse the banking system, and generally reduce the economy to rubble. Or maybe they say we do nothing and we end up with 50,000? 100,000? 1,000,000? dead.

Whatever. Obviously, I'm making up numbers. I don't have a big conference room to get all those people together.

There's one man who could make that happen.

Bummer. He's busy tweeting that the media is being unfair, and that miracle cures are around the corner, and we have plenty of test kits.
You don’t think there are experts in the field right now trying to come up with estimates of how many ventilators are needed and others trying to figure how to get them? Why do you think companies are retooling to manufacture them?
Of course one reason companies may be retooling is also to still make money or lose less during the period of decreased demand.

You don’t think experts are trying to estimate how many masks may be needed and how we can get them?

You don’t think there are experts trying to estimate how many beds may be needed and how they can get them?

You don’t think there are experts trying to determine what the consequences of doing too much damage to the economy could be.

What I got out of today’s news conference is all of these things are happening.

Last edited by eeyore1954; 23rd March 2020 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 06:29 PM   #1622
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Criticism =/= hatred.

So yeah, he is wrong. And so are you.



The study you linked concludes that The New York Times mentions Trump a lot.

Okay... and?

He breaks every norm and convention there is. He says stupid and offensive things the way other people breathe. Heís a non-stop rage-Tweeter.

Behavior like that in a world leader tends to make the news.
Exactly. Why anyone finds it surprising that Trump gets criticized on a large scale when he consistently does and says controversial and outrageous things and lies to a huge extent is mind boggling. Trump damn near invites criticism on linen rag paper with embossed calligraphy and a self-stamped return envelope.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 06:32 PM   #1623
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Yep, Trump and his billionaire sociopath backers are running the sums on economic hurt of lockdowns versus letting this thing burn through the aged proles while the younger workers get back to the jobs that fund their gold dunny lifestyles.
So what's the answer? Revolution?
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Old 23rd March 2020, 06:36 PM   #1624
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So what's the answer? Revolution?
No, that's yours.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 06:41 PM   #1625
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump speaking of chloroquine, the anti-malarial drug that he's been touting with false claims:


1. The results have not been "very, very encouraging". There was one very small study
in France with some encouraging signs that it may shorten the
contagious period and/or reduce the viral load in the body. But certainly, Trump's
"gut feeling" that this could be a "game changer" is not based on much existing
medical evidence.

2. Chloroquine has been available for about 70 years and was FDA approved long ago. It
most certainly has not been approve for Covid 19 use.

In Nigeria, where malaria is common, the cost of the drug has skyrocketed over 400% because people think Trump has said it cures Covid 19. In this country, a couple overdosed on the drug. The husband died and the wife is in the ICU. Words matter, Donnie. Words matter. So shut the **** up.
Trump is not a doctor but plays one on TV.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 06:43 PM   #1626
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm thinking restrictions at the federal level probably don't make a lot of sense. The states can put in the restrictions that best fit their own situations, and the federal government can support the state efforts. Shutting down the entire country wholesale from Washington, D.C. probably would be worse than just letting the disease run its course without any restrictions at all.
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Why?
Because it creates a no-lose scenario for the Trump supporters and the "Burn the system down" side.

Right now the only way for the Trumpers/Nihilists to come out of this the winners is if after everything is said and done they can claim we "over-reacted" because being "dramatic" is the only sin the recognize. Trump picking his nose during "The Andromeda Strain" is fine because he's not caring, a Democrat who predicts 100,000 people will die but only 99,998 die has committed the unforgivable sin of being "dramatic." That's why they've been obsessively sniffing like a pig for truffles for some thread of that narrative since this whole thing started.

Make it so either there's a massive economic cost to saving lives or a massive death toll to save the economy. Either results just claim "the other way" would have been better when all is said and done.

The Trumpers can then play either "Trump saved us," "Trump tried to save us but the evil Dems wouldn't let us," and/or "We can't change leaders in a crisis, we have to re-elect him" and theprestige and the other Littlefingers can continue their "We deserve to be punished for depending on the government for anything and not adopting a 'everything sucks' persona, now join me in burning the kingdom down to prove I was right in thinking nothing matters" routine.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 06:45 PM   #1627
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
Trump is not a doctor but plays one on TV.
Trump doesn't even play the President on TV.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 06:45 PM   #1628
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
Trump is not a doctor but plays one on TV.
He's probably hoping for an Emmy. The Apprentice: 8 nominations, no Emmy
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Old 23rd March 2020, 06:48 PM   #1629
The Atheist
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
In ther worse, Jare Kushner is running the show.
America is doomed, folks.
The dark side of nepotism.

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Yep, Trump and his billionaire sociopath backers are running the sums on economic hurt of lockdowns versus letting this thing burn through the aged proles while the younger workers get back to the jobs that fund their gold dunny lifestyles.
Someone should tell him that's his largest percentage vote he has.

Might encourage him to try to save some of them.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 07:33 PM   #1630
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
You donít think there are experts in the field right now trying to come up with estimates of how many ventilators are needed and others trying to figure how to get them? Why do you think companies are retooling to manufacture them?
Of course one reason companies may be retooling is also to still make money or lose less during the period of decreased demand.

You donít think experts are trying to estimate how many masks may be needed and how we can get them?

You donít think there are experts trying to estimate how many beds may be needed and how they can get them?

You donít think there are experts trying to determine what the consequences of doing too much damage to the economy could be.

What I got out of todayís news conference is all of these things are happening.
And they are. But there isn't a coordinated effort led by someone who's putting together a plan. The guy at the helm is jumping in all sorts of directions, spouting off whatever he heard yesterday that he wants to believe, and general being chaotic.

But, he could surprise me. Maybe that team really has it together.

What do you think? Do you think if someone asked Trump, "How many ventilators are needed, and when will they be delivered?" do you think he would know the answer?
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Old 23rd March 2020, 07:53 PM   #1631
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And they are. But there isn't a coordinated effort led by someone who's putting together a plan. The guy at the helm is jumping in all sorts of directions, spouting off whatever he heard yesterday that he wants to believe, and general being chaotic.

But, he could surprise me. Maybe that team really has it together.

What do you think? Do you think if someone asked Trump, "How many ventilators are needed, and when will they be delivered?" do you think he would know the answer?
Are you kidding? But ask him what the rating are for his fave FOX talking head shows...
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Old 23rd March 2020, 08:18 PM   #1632
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
He's probably hoping for an Emmy. The Apprentice: 8 nominations, no Emmy
Well, he is an "acting" President. But not a very good one.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 09:17 PM   #1633
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
All Sceintest(sic) and medical expert(sic) absent from today's conference.(sic)
In ther(sic) worse(sic), Jare(sic) Kushner(sic) is running the show.
America is doomed, folks.
You've lost me.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 09:20 PM   #1634
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
You donít think there are experts in the field right now trying to come up with estimates of how many ventilators are needed and others trying to figure how to get them? Why do you think companies are retooling to manufacture them?
Of course one reason companies may be retooling is also to still make money or lose less during the period of decreased demand.

You donít think experts are trying to estimate how many masks may be needed and how we can get them?

You donít think there are experts trying to estimate how many beds may be needed and how they can get them?

You donít think there are experts trying to determine what the consequences of doing too much damage to the economy could be.

What I got out of todayís news conference is all of these things are happening.
I want to elaborate slightly on why I believe what I believe. To do that, I'll go back a few days to a topic I already brought up. Trump was asked about a national lockdown, and he replied that it made sense for New York or California, but not for the Midwest where the disease wasn't as bad.


Do you think that's the answer of an informed man who is heading up a pandemic crisis response team?
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Old 23rd March 2020, 10:14 PM   #1635
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
At this point, I'm not sure if he's evil or if Hanlon's razor comes into play. I think he might just be completely incompetent. I think his adviser's might be a bit evil though.
Miller has got this Heydrich thing down pat. Get rid of all the internal opposition violently, then architect a ******* global holocaust but make it all your maniac boss's idea.

Pity the same thing doesn't happen to Miller that happened to Heydrich - assassinated by patriots.
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Old 23rd March 2020, 11:39 PM   #1636
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
You've lost me.
I understood, in spite of the typos. One who would become "lost" due to a few perfectly intelligible mistakes is one who seeks to become "lost."

Last edited by Lurch; 23rd March 2020 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 24th March 2020, 01:00 AM   #1637
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
I understood, in spite of the typos. One who would become "lost" due to a few perfectly intelligible mistakes is one who seeks to become "lost."
Well that is all he has in his arsenal for Trump support.
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Old 24th March 2020, 04:00 AM   #1638
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https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/s...45135129346050

Quote:
Tx Lt Gov Dan Patrick says grandparents would be willing to die to save the economy for their grandchildren
Video embedded in tweet. Transcript here:

Quote:
No one reached out to me and said, as a senior citizen, are you willing to take a chance on your survival in exchange for keeping the America that all America loves for your children and grandchildren. And if that's the exchange, I'm all in. And that doesn't make me noble or brave or anything like that. I just think there are lots of grandparents out there in this country like me -- I have six grandchildren -- and what we all care about and what we love more than anything is those children. And I want to live smart and see through this, but I don't want the whole country to be sacrificed, and that's what I see. [...] My message is let's get back to work, let's get back to living, let's be smart about it, and those of us who are 70+, we'll take care of ourselves, but don't sacrifice the country, don't do that, don't ruin this American dream.
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Old 24th March 2020, 04:13 AM   #1639
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/s...45135129346050



Video embedded in tweet. Transcript here:
Yes, workers of the world, lay your grandparents on the blood altar of capital. All praise the market!
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Old 24th March 2020, 04:16 AM   #1640
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/s...45135129346050



Video embedded in tweet. Transcript here:
He doesn't address how he'll feel when his grandchildren start getting ill due to the lifting of restrictions.
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