ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags international law , sanctions , The Hague , war crimes

Reply
Old 16th March 2019, 04:19 AM   #1
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 16,406
Exclamation Rogue US regime sanctions International Criminal Court

US bars entry to International Criminal Court investigators

Originally Posted by AP
WASHINGTON (AP) — The United States will revoke or deny visas to International Criminal Court personnel seeking to investigate alleged war crimes and other abuses committed by U.S. forces in Afghanistan or elsewhere, and may do the same with those who seek action against Israel, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said Friday.

Pompeo, acting on a threat delivered in September by U.S. national security adviser John Bolton, framed the action as necessary to prevent the international body from infringing on U.S. sovereignty by prosecuting American forces or allies for torture or other war crimes.

“We are determined to protect the American and allied military and civilian personnel from living in fear of unjust prosecution for actions taken to defend our great nation,” Pompeo said. [...]

When President George W. Bush took office in 2001, his administration promoted and passed the American Service Members Protection Act, which sought to immunize U.S. troops from potential prosecution by the ICC. In 2002, Bolton, then a State Department official, traveled to New York to ceremonially “unsign” the Rome Statute at the United Nations. [...]

The ICC said in a statement it was established by a treaty supported by 123 countries and that it prosecutes cases only when those countries failed to do so or did not do so “genuinely.” Afghanistan is a signatory. [...]

The behaviour of these thugs is a pretty breathtaking thing to watch...
__________________
ALOHA
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 05:34 AM   #2
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 47,747
Batman and Superman can only do their work if they are untrammeled by the rules they enforce on others.

It's not new with Trump, or even modern Republicans. The US has been nervous of ceding any sovereignty issues to international bodies since the League of Nations, which we didn't join even though it was our idea.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 07:04 AM   #3
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 40,017
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
US bars entry to International Criminal Court investigators




The behaviour of these thugs is a pretty breathtaking thing to watch...
The parallels between the Republican version of the USA and the dictatorships here in Southeast Asia are very strong. This is the kind of thing that Myanmar or Thailand or Cambodia or Vietnam pulls and everyone sitting around over their morning coffee or tea in Europe and North America tsk tsks about.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 07:07 AM   #4
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 31,115
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Batman and Superman can only do their work if they are untrammeled by the rules they enforce on others.

It's not new with Trump, or even modern Republicans. The US has been nervous of ceding any sovereignty issues to international bodies since the League of Nations, which we didn't join even though it was our idea.
"I don't care to belong to any club that is willing to have me as a member."
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 07:35 AM   #5
Guybrush Threepwood
Trainee Pirate
 
Guybrush Threepwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: An Uaimh
Posts: 2,596
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The parallels between the Republican version of the USA and the dictatorships here in Southeast Asia are very strong. This is the kind of thing that Myanmar or Thailand or Cambodia or Vietnam pulls and everyone sitting around over their morning coffee or tea in Europe and North America tsk tsks about.
Don't worry, we're all over this tsk tsking about it too.

If that doesn't put a stop to it I don't know what will.
Guybrush Threepwood is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 10:01 AM   #6
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 16,406
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's not new with Trump, or even modern Republicans. The US has been nervous of ceding any sovereignty issues to international bodies since the League of Nations, which we didn't join even though it was our idea.

I know, and with Killary it would have been practically the same, just much more subtle with the arm-bending going on in the background. That's why I maintained during the 2016 elections that Trump would be the lesser evil, exactly because of this "masks are off" effect. But I did not foresee how blatant it would get, and I like to stick to a theory, being aware that it might be wishful thinking, that this stuff is just Trump's way of abandoning the Empire and making "America", as in a sovereign nation state without the "white man's burden" which is in essence capital control over the world, great again.

I'm talking about thinking along the line of this guy.

I mean, if you want to recolonize South America, the last face you want to be associated with this adventure is Elliott Abrams, who everybody there hates for perfectly good reasons. And after all, Trump bombed the Syrian desert twice, boasting about his toughness.
__________________
ALOHA
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 10:21 AM   #7
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 16,406
In related news, the Pentagon is now demanding the full costs of their occupation protection of Germany, Japan and South Korea, plus 50% divident.

I can tell you about the mood in Germany, which is just indifference to the fact that UK, FR and the Soviet Union left after reunification but the US is still here with around 30,000 troops. Some activists are protesting in front of Ramstein (the largest US base outside the country) over their involvement in the drone war, but that is very fringe.

Should this new demand reach the public (and the establishment media is mute), it would set fire to a not-contested status quo.
__________________
ALOHA

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 16th March 2019 at 10:26 AM.
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 10:29 AM   #8
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,280
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
In related news, the Pentagon is now demanding the full costs of their occupation protection of Germany, Japan and South Korea, plus 50% divident.
No they aren't. You've got a Russian propaganda outlet claiming that an anonymous source says we're going to ask for that in the future, but even they aren't claiming that we've actually done so.

Quote:
I can tell you about the mood in Germany, which is just indifference to the fact that UK, FR and the Soviet Union left after reunification but the US is still here with around 30,000 troops.
Germany is weak. I'll take their opinion on military matters seriously when they take their own military seriously.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 10:34 AM   #9
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,280
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Batman and Superman can only do their work if they are untrammeled by the rules they enforce on others.
The United States isn't part of the Rome Statute, so we don't enforce the ICC on anyone.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 10:44 AM   #10
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 16,406
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No they aren't. You've got a Russian propaganda outlet claiming that an anonymous source says we're going to ask for that in the future, but even they aren't claiming that we've actually done so.

Bloomberg: Trump Seeks Huge Premium From Allies Hosting U.S. Troops

Originally Posted by Bloomberg
[...] Under White House direction, the administration is drawing up demands that Germany, Japan and eventually any other country hosting U.S. troops pay the full price of American soldiers deployed on their soil -- plus 50 percent or more for the privilege of hosting them, according to a dozen administration officials and people briefed on the matter.

In some cases, nations hosting American forces could be asked to pay five to six times as much as they do now under the “Cost Plus 50” formula.

Trump has championed the idea for months. His insistence on it almost derailed recent talks with South Korea over the status of 28,000 U.S. troops in the country when he overruled his negotiators with a note to National Security Adviser John Bolton saying, “We want cost plus 50.” [...]

You better get used to that what "Russian propaganda outlets" are claiming is just describing what your neo-fascist regime is doing. You can apologize for your nosy post now, so we can take you along the line without thinking that you support this behaviour.
__________________
ALOHA
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 10:54 AM   #11
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,280
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Your link is broken. But even that report is about a proposal to make such a demand. No such demand has actually been made.

And given Trump's negotiating style, this means less than what it might mean from most other presidents.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 11:00 AM   #12
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 16,406
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Your link is broken.

Oops. I tried to cut out the "social media" data, but cut a relevant "s" with it. Here is your link.

Now you say sorry for your silly blaming of RT.
__________________
ALOHA
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 11:14 AM   #13
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,280
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Oops. I tried to cut out the "social media" data, but cut a relevant "s" with it. Here is your link.

Now you say sorry for your silly blaming of RT.
I'm mostly blaming you, because regardless of RT's lack of credibility (which I stand by), you couldn't even report their version correctly.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 12:00 PM   #14
Parsman
Muse
 
Parsman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 629
Zig since Trump was elected he has been going round like a Mafiosi. "nice NATO you got there. Would be a shame if something happened to it". He doesn't understand diplomacy and treaties. Heck he doesn't really understand economics and money he just knows that the man with the most at the end of the day wins, and if he has anything to say or do about it no matter how undiplomatic or shady or greedy it is he wants to be the winner. It really takes naivety of the highest order to think Trump wouldn't be trying something like this, and then as usual lying in our faces about what he has just said and done.
__________________
I was not; I have been; I am not; I am content - Epicurus

When you're dead you don't know that you're dead, all the pain is felt by others....................the same thing happens when you're stupid.
Parsman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 12:20 PM   #15
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,280
Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
Zig since Trump was elected he has been going round like a Mafiosi. "nice NATO you got there. Would be a shame if something happened to it". He doesn't understand diplomacy and treaties. Heck he doesn't really understand economics and money he just knows that the man with the most at the end of the day wins, and if he has anything to say or do about it no matter how undiplomatic or shady or greedy it is he wants to be the winner. It really takes naivety of the highest order to think Trump wouldn't be trying something like this, and then as usual lying in our faces about what he has just said and done.
I'm not saying Trump wouldn't do it. I'm saying he hasn't done it, not yet. CE claimed he had already done it. And that's not true. Nor do any of her sources make that claim.

As for what Trump does or doesn't understand, I don't think you understand Trump. A willingness to break decorum isn't the same thing as not knowing what that decorum is. And that seems to be what the complaints are really about: you're not supposed to ask allies for money because that's just not done. But that's not really a compelling argument.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 12:32 PM   #16
Garrette
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,763
The error with CE's post about the claim for cost plus 50 is only partly that the proposal hasn't been made; it is also that the Pentagon opposes it. The proposal has been floated by Trump but not supported by others.
__________________
My kids still love me.
Garrette is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 12:36 PM   #17
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,402
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
As for what Trump does or doesn't understand, I don't think you understand Trump. A willingness to break decorum isn't the same thing as not knowing what that decorum is. And that seems to be what the complaints are really about: you're not supposed to ask former allies for money because that's just not done. But that's not really a compelling argument.
FTFY. In case you missed it, Europe no longer considers the US to be the "leader of the free world" and they don't trust Trump to protect their interests. As well they shouldn't.
__________________
"We're done! We're done! GET OUT!"
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 12:46 PM   #18
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 26,245
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post

As for what Trump does or doesn't understand, I don't think you understand Trump. A willingness to break decorum isn't the same thing as not knowing what that decorum is.
Ok. I’ll accept there is a difference. Is there any evidence that the president knows what decorum is? I ask because I have not seen any. After all, there is no evidence that he understands how tariffs work or how MOUs work. Why should we believe he knows how decorum works?

And is there an underlying strategy for his breaking decorum? Again, I ask because I don’t see it.

Quote:
And that seems to be what the complaints are really about: you're not supposed to ask allies for money because that's just not done. But that's not really a compelling argument.
Not turning the US military into mercenaries is not a compelling reason?

Also, if they don’t pay, will we close the bases and leave?
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.

Last edited by Ladewig; 16th March 2019 at 12:52 PM. Reason: Added some stuff
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 12:59 PM   #19
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,280
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
FTFY. In case you missed it, Europe no longer considers the US to be the "leader of the free world" and they don't trust Trump to protect their interests. As well they shouldn't.
What interests are those, and why should the US protect them?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 01:01 PM   #20
Norman Alexander
Illuminator
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 4,698
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What interests are those, and why should the US protect them?
6th June 1944 ring a bell?
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 01:09 PM   #21
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,280
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
And is there an underlying strategy for his breaking decorum? Again, I ask because I don’t see it.
Yes, I think there is. Europe needs to increase its defense spending. It has spent too little for decades because it has known that America would pick up the slack. We have been complaining for decades about Europe's inadequate spending, but have been unwilling to do anything to force Europe to increase it.

Trump is willing to force the issue. That is understandably upsetting to the Europeans, but the fact that it upsets them isn't a negative. It's an absolute requirement in order to achieve what needs to be done.

Quote:
Not turning the US military into mercenaries is not a compelling reason?
No, actually, it isn't. And we wouldn't be mercenaries in such an arrangement, because we wouldn't be under their command.

Quote:
Also, if they don’t pay, will we close the bases and leave?
Depends, but potentially. More likely, we will settle for increased financial support below that proposed level, and/or increased military spending by our NATO allies. But it's quite common in negotiations to open by asking for more than you're willing to settle for.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 01:10 PM   #22
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,280
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
6th June 1944 ring a bell?
Wait... are we supposed to invade France? Defeat Germany? Both?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 01:15 PM   #23
Norman Alexander
Illuminator
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 4,698
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Wait... are we supposed to invade France? Defeat Germany? Both?
Defeat bad guys in Europe. Then stick around and make sure the Russians don't replace them. Some of your troops actually went all the way to Europe to participate in this.

But hey. It's user-pays nowadays, isn't it. If the hotel you stay in doesn't pay you plus 50%, you are going to leave. And serve them right!
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 01:19 PM   #24
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 39,864
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm not saying Trump wouldn't do it. I'm saying he hasn't done it, not yet. CE claimed he had already done it. And that's not true. Nor do any of her sources make that claim.

As for what Trump does or doesn't understand, I don't think you understand Trump. A willingness to break decorum isn't the same thing as not knowing what that decorum is. And that seems to be what the complaints are really about: you're not supposed to ask allies for money because that's just not done. But that's not really a compelling argument.
Do you know what Trump is going to do? Not even Trump knows that. He is an infantile loose cannon.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 01:47 PM   #25
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,280
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Defeat bad guys in Europe.
Who are the bad guys this time? Is it the Germans again?

Quote:
Some of your troops actually went all the way to Europe to participate in this.
I didn't ask what Europe's past interest were, I asked what their current interests are. Does the US really need to kick Germany's ass for a third time? They seem quite a bit softer now.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 02:05 PM   #26
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 16,406
Moronic cold war rhetoric isn't going to cut it. Nobody is going to invade Europe. Russia has a defense (in the true sense) budget the size of Germany. But it has mean missiles that would sink the whole lame duck aircraft carrier fleet of the US on the first day of any war. Which is why war is not an option for the global mafia.
__________________
ALOHA
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 09:13 PM   #27
Lurch
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 677
The fact that Dumpy would like rules of accountability to not apply to US forces only drives into his developing legacy of ignominy another clear marker delineating his boorishly autocratic tendencies. In two short years that orange stain has besmirched his nation's honor to a degree never seen. Think upon the potential debauchery yet to come in the next two, or, the gods forfend!, the next six.
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 09:45 PM   #28
cmikes
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 457
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, I think there is. Europe needs to increase its defense spending. It has spent too little for decades because it has known that America would pick up the slack. We have been complaining for decades about Europe's inadequate spending, but have been unwilling to do anything to force Europe to increase it.

Trump is willing to force the issue. That is understandably upsetting to the Europeans, but the fact that it upsets them isn't a negative. It's an absolute requirement in order to achieve what needs to be done.

I remember all the stories positing that Trump complaining about countries not paying for their NATO commitments being "proof" that Trump was a Russian agent.

By that logic, every single US president since Jimmy Carter* has been a Soviet/Russian agent.

*Possibly even before Carter, he's just the first one I remember giving speeches about it.
cmikes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2019, 09:59 PM   #29
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 7,027
Thing is, asking for money makes you look poor.
If you ask for money to support your troops, it also makes you look weak.

The signal Trump and Pompeo are sending is: we cannot afford to project our power anymore.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th March 2019, 04:04 AM   #30
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 32,544
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
The fact that Dumpy would like rules of accountability to not apply to US forces
Rules of accountability do apply to US forces, though. Trump has never said otherwise, nor has he done anything to change this.

Your mistake is imagining that those rules do, or should, involve the ICC.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th March 2019, 04:53 PM   #31
Planigale
Master Poster
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,988
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Rules of accountability do apply to US forces, though. Trump has never said otherwise, nor has he done anything to change this.

Your mistake is imagining that those rules do, or should, involve the ICC.
The problem is those US agencies that are not military. Just as an example the CIA use drones to assassinate people. They operate outside of the 'rules of war'. There is not the same oversight and law that the military are subject to. We know that CIA / black ops / private contractors operate on the ground deliberately to avoid being subject to the same standards as the military would adhere to. These are illegal combatants, they are not uniformed and not subject to lawful military authority. The CIA had prisons to torture people because the military would not do so.

The need for ICC is that the nation state (USA) is not enforcing the rules of war on 'non-military' agencies.

Last edited by Planigale; 17th March 2019 at 04:54 PM.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th March 2019, 09:11 PM   #32
Norman Alexander
Illuminator
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 4,698
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Thing is, asking for money makes you look poor.
If you ask for money to support your troops, it also makes you look weak.

The signal Trump and Pompeo are sending is: we cannot afford to project our power anymore.
Trump is not the least bit interested in projection of US power. He could hardly spell it, let alone describe what it is or how it works.

He is totally interested in makin' moar monay! Raking in the moolah. Accumulating the cashola. That's his measure of power.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2019, 07:05 AM   #33
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,466
Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The problem is those US agencies that are not military. Just as an example the CIA use drones to assassinate people. They operate outside of the 'rules of war'. There is not the same oversight and law that the military are subject to. We know that CIA / black ops / private contractors operate on the ground deliberately to avoid being subject to the same standards as the military would adhere to. These are illegal combatants, they are not uniformed and not subject to lawful military authority. The CIA had prisons to torture people because the military would not do so.

The need for ICC is that the nation state (USA) is not enforcing the rules of war on 'non-military' agencies.
Of course those acts have been found to be illegal, we just are not going to actually prosecute anyone for it because that would look bad and as we successfully destroying the most emotionally charged evidence that cause people do demand some scapegoats for abu ghraib that it wouldn't be demanded by the public.

For example in Abu Ghraib the military was just softening them up for the civilian torturers to do their job(totally legal). So it isn't like the military really refused to co operate with the torture, they just tried to keep a bit of plausible deniability.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 11:21 AM   #34
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,280
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Trump is not the least bit interested in projection of US power.
You still haven't told me what European interests the US should be protecting. If you don't think there are any, then you should say so.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:40 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.