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Tags gun control , gun laws , mass shootings , New Zealand incidents , New Zealand issues , shooting incidents

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Old 19th March 2019, 02:05 AM   #41
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Anyway, to get back on topic, I think we can all agree that whatever happens in the US is pretty much irrelevant to, a) NZ firearms laws now, and b) how said laws should or are likely to be changed. NZ is simply not going to take a cue from the US in any way, shape, or form, so observations that "they couldn't do that in the US" are pointless and unhelpful.

In contrast, NZ if far more likely to look to Australia and the UK, both of which have more stricter but somewhat different firearms legislation from NZ. It seems to me that they should dump the whole MSSA concept, and the magazine restrictions, and simply ban semi-auto rifles in any calibre other than .22 LR. Given that the Christchurch killer also used shotguns, further restrictions on them are inevitable.
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Old 19th March 2019, 02:41 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Anyway, to get back on topic, I think we can all agree that whatever happens in the US is pretty much irrelevant to, a) NZ firearms laws now, and b) how said laws should or are likely to be changed. NZ is simply not going to take a cue from the US in any way, shape, or form, so observations that "they couldn't do that in the US" are pointless and unhelpful.

In contrast, NZ if far more likely to look to Australia and the UK, both of which have more stricter but somewhat different firearms legislation from NZ. It seems to me that they should dump the whole MSSA concept, and the magazine restrictions, and simply ban semi-auto rifles in any calibre other than .22 LR. Given that the Christchurch killer also used shotguns, further restrictions on them are inevitable.
Mags yes

Big calibre semis yes

Have to give leeway to cops, DOC and licenced competition shooters

Add add every retail gun being recorded in a central database against licence number

If you can do it buying groceries at countdown/petrol stations with their cards and it works out how many onions you have brought, it can't be that hard

The biggy in the room

No private sales of guns, or at least those over a certain calibre

And a hand in buy back scheme
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Old 19th March 2019, 04:42 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Anyway, to get back on topic, I think we can all agree that whatever happens in the US is pretty much irrelevant to, a) NZ firearms laws now, and b) how said laws should or are likely to be changed. NZ is simply not going to take a cue from the US in any way, shape, or form, so observations that "they couldn't do that in the US" are pointless and unhelpful.

In contrast, NZ if far more likely to look to Australia and the UK, both of which have more stricter but somewhat different firearms legislation from NZ. It seems to me that they should dump the whole MSSA concept, and the magazine restrictions, and simply ban semi-auto rifles in any calibre other than .22 LR. Given that the Christchurch killer also used shotguns, further restrictions on them are inevitable.
I am curious how exactly the ban will be defined. Semi-auto is vague enough that work arounds exist. Things like the MARS rifle in the UK. It uses a semi auto system to extract and eject the fired case, but a lever must be hit to release the spring loaded bolt back forward, making it technically a manually operated rifle.

It would be pretty easy to define the ban such that weapon that uses any energy from the previously fired shot to unlock and/or open the bolt, extract the round, eject the round, or close and/or lock the bolt again is unlawful. If the idea is to only allow 100% manually operated firearms, such rigorous definitions will be required.

Other things, like banning calibers or features (like "military rifles") invite opportunities for creative products that technically meet the letter of the law while violating the spirit.
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Old 19th March 2019, 04:54 AM   #44
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Semi-serious question - our good friend Mr. Peter Jackson has a fairly large collection of WWI and WWII machine guns (and tanks and artillery). Will he need to turn them over, or will certain collections get a pass (additional legislative conditions) due to their other uses?
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Old 19th March 2019, 04:58 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I am curious how exactly the ban will be defined. Semi-auto is vague enough that work arounds exist. Things like the MARS rifle in the UK. It uses a semi auto system to extract and eject the fired case, but a lever must be hit to release the spring loaded bolt back forward, making it technically a manually operated rifle.

It would be pretty easy to define the ban such that weapon that uses any energy from the previously fired shot to unlock and/or open the bolt, extract the round, eject the round, or close and/or lock the bolt again is unlawful. If the idea is to only allow 100% manually operated firearms, such rigorous definitions will be required.
MARS and lever-release actions were specifically developed to get around the semi-auto ban because of the way they were defined in law. This loophole is now in the process of being closed.

Quote:
Other things, like banning calibers or features (like "military rifles") invite opportunities for creative products that technically meet the letter of the law while violating the spirit.
In the UK the semi-auto ban applies to anything and everything that isn't .22 LR, which is pretty solid. There has never been any obsession with what a firearm looks like, only what its functionality is. AR-15s with a unconvertible manual action can be licensed. The same goes for L1A1s (inch-pattern FN FALs) that have been converted to manual action to a standard that cannot be readily reversed.
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Old 19th March 2019, 05:00 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Semi-serious question - our good friend Mr. Peter Jackson has a fairly large collection of WWI and WWII machine guns (and tanks and artillery). Will he need to turn them over, or will certain collections get a pass (additional legislative conditions) due to their other uses?
It seems there is already provision for collectors, and for theatrical use, for that matter.
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Old 19th March 2019, 05:01 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Semi-serious question - our good friend Mr. Peter Jackson has a fairly large collection of WWI and WWII machine guns (and tanks and artillery). Will he need to turn them over, or will certain collections get a pass (additional legislative conditions) due to their other uses?
Hopefully there will be provisions for historical and museum collections. I don't know if he personally owns them now or if someone owning machine guns and artillery pieces is actually legal, or if he owns them through some sort of personal museum or other such legal construct.

Someone seriously interested in owning such rare and expensive pieces will be little inconvenienced by a little extra legal hoop jumping.
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Old 19th March 2019, 05:29 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Did you not read earlier posts? He got the guns legally.

NZ will ban semi-automatics. Nothing surer.
Probably, perhaps not rimfire.
No great loss.
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Old 19th March 2019, 05:32 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
If it is sensible the NZ government will have an amnesty allowing holders to sell semi-automatics to be distroyed. After that anyone holding such a gun would be a criminal. That will cause a lot of people to think again.
Exactly. Maybe a government purchase scheme or a deactivation option.
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Old 19th March 2019, 06:27 AM   #50
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Will New Zealand outlaw everything that Tarrant used?

.223 caliber semi-auto rifles.

Semi-auto shotguns.

Pump-action shotguns.
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Old 19th March 2019, 06:29 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
How delightful that a thread on NZ gun laws and culture has turned into US gun laws and culture within the first page.

Meanwhile, in NZ, Jacinda has given gun owners a very large hint as to where it's all going: "Hand over your guns now, before we force you to." The government will introduce new laws within the next ten days.

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/...-law-change-pm
Opposition to the plan at this stage is zero.
Considering that the NZ statute on MSSA (Military Style Semi-Automatics) is based on the 1994 federal crime bill and the California regulations on "Assault Weapons" there are similarities between the two.

Long running joke in California based on a notice sent out to all licensed firearms dealers by the state Bureau of Firearms after the appeals court determined that the BoF did not have regulatory authority to add firearms to the banned list:

"Licensees are advised not to initiate transfers on any firearm considered to be an "off-list" assault weapon. The firearms in question will be added to the ban list within two weeks.:
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Old 19th March 2019, 06:59 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What happened if you didn't turn them in,?
Oh, all sorts of bad things. But the turn-in itself was voluntary. And most Australians were happy to comply, so it doesn't matter anyway.
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Old 19th March 2019, 07:09 AM   #53
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Nothing but respect for New Zealanders at this point. One incident and they start turning in guns, as opposed to that country that just loves watching schools being shot up. I wonder if anyone pointed out to Charlton Heston before he died that when you allow school children to die to protect your mythological right to own a gun your hand, along with your heart, is already cold and dead?

Quote:
New Zealanders turn in guns as Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern promises tighter restrictions
Quote:
John Hart, a farmer and Green Party member from the Wairarapa, said on Twitter he had owned a gun for 31 years.

"On the farm they are a useful tool in some circumstances, but my convenience doesn’t outweigh the risk of misuse," Hart tweeted. "We don’t need these in our country."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...lf/3199924002/
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Old 19th March 2019, 07:22 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Oh, all sorts of bad things. But the turn-in itself was voluntary. And most Australians were happy to comply, so it doesn't matter anyway.
That doesn't describe something that is voluntary.
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Old 19th March 2019, 07:57 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
<via USA Today, see source post for link>

John Hart, a farmer and Green Party member from the Wairarapa, said on Twitter he had owned a gun for 31 years.

"On the farm they are a useful tool in some circumstances, but my convenience doesn’t outweigh the risk of misuse," Hart tweeted. "We don’t need these in our country."
This makes no sense to me. It's been a useful tool for 31 years, but he needs to turn it in now?

What misuse does he fear? Is some terrorist going to creep onto his farm, steal his gun, and go on a shooting spree? Is he going to flip out and start killing people? Has he actually bothered to assess the risk of misuse of his gun? Has he considered that instead of giving up a proven useful tool, he could just lock it up at night? He's had the thing for three decades without incident. But somebody else somewhere else does something else entirely, and suddenly he's terrified of his own trusted tool? I don't buy it.

Also, why is his party membership relevant to the story?
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Old 19th March 2019, 08:05 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This makes no sense to me. It's been a useful tool for 31 years, but he needs to turn it in now?

He is speaking of a class of guns, a type - not only of his individual gun.

He has other guns (single fire) that can do the same job well enough. He feels (apparently) that as a type of gun, semi-auto is not needed and causes more harm than good.
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Old 19th March 2019, 08:23 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
He is speaking of a class of guns, a type - not only of his individual gun.
His individual gun is the only one he turned in, though.

Quote:
He has other guns (single fire) that can do the same job well enough. He feels (apparently) that as a type of gun, semi-auto is not needed and causes more harm than good.
What harm has his semi-auto ever caused? What risk has he successfully mitigated for thirty years, that he suddenly now can no longer mitigate?
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Old 19th March 2019, 08:32 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
His individual gun is the only one he turned in, though.


What harm has his semi-auto ever caused? What risk has he successfully mitigated for thirty years, that he suddenly now can no longer mitigate?
Of course he only turned in his own gun - how is he supposed to turn in other people's guns?

He seems to feel that, as a type of gun, semiauto has caused harm to his nation. As a type of gun, he feels they should no longer be present in private ownership. So, as not to be a hypocrite, he turns his in, because that is part of ending private ownership of that type of gun. He is doing this in anticipation of, and in support of, the removal of these guns from private ownership.

It is not about him, it is about his participation in his society.

Last edited by crescent; 19th March 2019 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 19th March 2019, 08:36 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What harm has his semi-auto ever caused?
None. Same status as the guns used in Christchurch right up to the morning of the attack.
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Old 19th March 2019, 08:55 AM   #60
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Mod WarningSeveral posts on US gun control and US supremacy moved to AAH. There are plenty of other threads in which to discuss such topics. Please keep to the topic of this one, which is gun control and culture in New Zealand.

Thank you.
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Old 19th March 2019, 01:05 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Have to give leeway to cops, DOC and licenced competition shooters
DOC hunters generally don't use semis, unless that's changed in recent times. I used to move a lot in those circles 20 years ago and never saw one. I doubt it's changed, because a semi just has more things to go wrong and when you're a week's hard yakka away from the nearest gun shop, that matters.

Rabbit shooters would be the one group that uses semis, but they're .22 anyway. I don't believe pump-action shotguns are a necessity because rabbits have gone after the first shot.

Cops have different rules anyway and new legislation won't affect them any more than the army.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Will New Zealand outlaw everything that Tarrant used?

.223 caliber semi-auto rifles.

Semi-auto shotguns.

Pump-action shotguns.
Yep, I would expect them all to be outlawed, as well as a few other, more obscure guns.

One thing I would like to see the legislation change is around high-powered air guns, some of which are as powerful as a .22 rifle. We had a cop killed by one a couple of years ago, and there are still no licensing requirements on them - you can walk into any gun shop and buy one, without even needing ID.

Given Labour's strong anti-gun stance and the complete lack of opposition, I hope the legislation goes beyond what we need to see.
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Old 20th March 2019, 04:22 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yep, I would expect them all to be outlawed, as well as a few other, more obscure guns.
I would be kind of surprised if they outlawed pump shotguns, though a magazine size cap I would not be.
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Old 20th March 2019, 07:46 PM   #63
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Ok, laws already signed to ban assault rifles and semi-auto "military-style" rifles.

To nobody's surprise, National unanimously supports the changes.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edit for rule 11.
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Old 20th March 2019, 08:52 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Ok, laws already signed to ban assault rifles and semi-auto "military-style" rifles.

To nobody's surprise, National unanimously supports the changes.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edit for rule 11.

Reading the Guardian's article it seems to ban all semi-automatic rifles other than .22 caliber. And shotguns, the wording seems to imply that semi-auto shotguns are still allowed, but that is probably just clumsy wording in the article.

Quote:
Today’s order-in-council immediately moves to Category E class, all Category A semi-automatics that are not shotguns or .22 rifles.

“These are weapons that have been used to slaughter innocent children, women and men while they were at their most vulnerable – at prayer. It is a move we, as a community, can be proud of,” Mr Cahill said.

The Association welcomed the pledge to pass, under urgency in parliament, law that will ban all Category E weapons, including all MSSAs.


Although it sounds as if it is not actually fully banned yet. The PM signed an order to reclassify semiauto guns:
Quote:
Earlier this afternoon, an Order in Council under section 74A(c) of the Arms Act was signed by the Governor-General to reclassify a wider range of semi-automatic weapons under the Act. It came into effect at 3pm today.
The actual ban seems to be agreed upon, but the legislation itself still needs to be passed. The political parties seem to have agreed to pass the law:

Quote:
“Legislation to give effect to the ban will be introduced when Parliament sits in the first week of April. We will provide a short, sharp Select Committee process for feedback on the technical aspects of the changes. We are looking to progress the amendments to this legislation under urgency and expect these amendments to the Arms Act to be passed within the next session of Parliament,” Jacinda Ardern said.

“The Bill will include narrow exemptions for legitimate business use, which would include professional pest control. Police and the Defence Force will also have exemptions. Issues like access for mainstream international sporting competitions are also being worked through,” Police Minister Stuart Nash said.

“We have also acknowledged that some guns serve legitimate purposes in our farming communities, and have therefore set out exemptions for 0.22 calibre rifles and shotguns commonly used for duck hunting. These will have limitations around their capacity.

Last edited by zooterkin; Yesterday at 03:00 PM.
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Old 20th March 2019, 10:50 PM   #65
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I'd like to see a few more changes, including making extended magazines E-class as well, and tightening up on licences with the ability to check out the applicant's social media.

Nice to see that sensible heads have prevailed and that the every day .22 rimfire hunting semi-automatics are not threatened.
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Old Yesterday, 03:13 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I'd like to see a few more changes, including making extended magazines E-class as well, and tightening up on licences with the ability to check out the applicant's social media.
This

Every vehicle in NZ has a registration number, and a unique VIN, and all those vehicles are in a searchable database, along with the owners. Authorities can look at a person, see if they have a drivers licence and see all the vehicles that are registered in their name, or look up a vehicle and see who the current owner is, and who all the previous owners have been.

Why can the same thing not be done with Gun licence holders and firearms? With some small adaptations, the same software as is used for vehicles, could be used for firearms.

As for changes of ownership, all firearms should be required to have a certified change of ownership. This could take place at the time the ownership is changed, the certification could be done at a Police station or Gun Dealers and Gun Shops stores certified to carry this out. Both parties, the seller and the buyer, must present their current firearms licences, and the firearms itself for inspection and the change to the database is made right there on a workstation.

I too would like to see it made much harder to get a firearms licence. It should be up to applicant to prove they are a fit and proper person, and each applicant should be properly investigated by the Police. Anyone with a criminal record should be automatically disbarred from having a firearms licence and from owning firearms of any kind.
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Old Yesterday, 04:29 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post

Nice to see that sensible heads have prevailed and that the every day .22 rimfire hunting semi-automatics are not threatened.
I wonder if the use of .22 semi-auto rifles in crimes will increase. They aren't the first choice for killing people, but they will do the job if better options are not available.

The planned parenthood shooter in Brookline MA used a .22 rifle. He killed 2 and wounded 5. I imagine the reduced lethality can be attributed to the use of rimfire (which is curious, as he easily could have purchased a centerfire rifle at the time).
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Old Yesterday, 05:34 AM   #68
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The Wikipedia entry for Gun Laws in New Zealand which I linked in post #2 has had some changes. There are now new entries and sections because of the massacre.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_New_Zealand
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Old Yesterday, 10:58 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I wonder if the use of .22 semi-auto rifles in crimes will increase.
I have to confess to being pretty disappointed they weren't outlawed. You can kill people just as easily with a .22.

I know this for sure because my mate's father was murdered by one in 1976.
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Old Yesterday, 02:06 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I wonder if the use of .22 semi-auto rifles in crimes will increase. They aren't the first choice for killing people, but they will do the job if better options are not available.

The planned parenthood shooter in Brookline MA used a .22 rifle. He killed 2 and wounded 5. I imagine the reduced lethality can be attributed to the use of rimfire (which is curious, as he easily could have purchased a centerfire rifle at the time).
I doubt it, gun crime is extremely low in New Zealand, so there is no reason for it to increase just because of gun law changes.
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Old Yesterday, 04:19 PM   #71
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Brought over from the Christchurch Terrorist Shooting thread...

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
There is a very different attitude to guns here than in the US. Here they are mostly a farming and hunting tool, with some use as a fun tool for target shooting as a secondary use. They aren't self defense items, and when not being used, they are locked away in gun safes.
[Unashamed advertisement]
There is business called "Cable Bay Shooting Adventures" not far from where I live..

https://visualguides.co.nz/listing/c...ng-adventures/

You can go there to shoot a whole range of their guns (AR-15s, shotguns, snipers rifles etc) without a licence because you are under the supervision of a firearms instructor. I shouted my staff and family to a day out at his range for Christmas, and every one of them had a great time, even the non-gun enthusiasts. They all want to do it again next Christmas.

I do wonder how this ban will impact his business?
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Old Yesterday, 05:38 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Considering that the NZ statute on MSSA (Military Style Semi-Automatics) is based on the 1994 federal crime bill and the California regulations on "Assault Weapons" there are similarities between the two.

Long running joke in California based on a notice sent out to all licensed firearms dealers by the state Bureau of Firearms after the appeals court determined that the BoF did not have regulatory authority to add firearms to the banned list:

"Licensees are advised not to initiate transfers on any firearm considered to be an "off-list" assault weapon. The firearms in question will be added to the ban list within two weeks.:
Never saw the point of a list of illegal firearms by name.
Just do it by function.
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Old Yesterday, 05:55 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I'd like to see a few more changes, including making extended magazines E-class as well, and tightening up on licences with the ability to check out the applicant's social media.

Nice to see that sensible heads have prevailed and that the every day .22 rimfire hunting semi-automatics are not threatened.
I would like to see the abolishment of all laws regarding ownership of weapons
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Old Yesterday, 06:28 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I would like to see the abolishment of all laws regarding ownership of weapons
Not to derail this thread, but this is just plain stupid. It doesn't take a genius to note that the freer the gun laws, the more likely you are to have idiots that go on shooting rampages, and the more powerful the weapons, the worse those are going to be.

As long as their are people who have mental issues, and people that blame their problems on others, and people that hate other people because they look, act, or believe different things, then having free access to weaponry is just asking for trouble.
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Old Yesterday, 06:58 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Not to derail this thread, but this is just plain stupid. It doesn't take a genius to note that the freer the gun laws, the more likely you are to have idiots that go on shooting rampages, and the more powerful the weapons, the worse those are going to be.

As long as their are people who have mental issues, and people that blame their problems on others, and people that hate other people because they look, act, or believe different things, then having free access to weaponry is just asking for trouble.
Correct
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Old Today, 12:20 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Reading the Guardian's article it seems to ban all semi-automatic rifles other than .22 caliber. And shotguns, the wording seems to imply that semi-auto shotguns are still allowed, but that is probably just clumsy wording in the article.

Although it sounds as if it is not actually fully banned yet. The PM signed an order to reclassify semiauto guns:


The actual ban seems to be agreed upon, but the legislation itself still needs to be passed. The political parties seem to have agreed to pass the law:
And it being reported that there is an immediate ban on sales in order to prevent stockpiling of weapons before the law is passed in Parliament.
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