ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Closed Thread
Old 16th February 2017, 09:33 AM   #1841
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,967
Originally Posted by Beady View Post
Try asking those questions in Mississippi and see how long you last.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
Not likely, as a Canuck I have a genetic predisposition to call in heavy artillery when I hear dueling banjos.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th February 2017, 09:38 AM   #1842
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,918
Originally Posted by Beady View Post
Crap! Aren't you being just a little picky for TEOTWAWKI?
Not at all. God can be bargained with, He showed as much with Abraham. I just want to ensure the maximum genetic viability of the rebooted species.
halleyscomet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th February 2017, 09:42 AM   #1843
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Not at all. God can be bargained with, He showed as much with Abraham. I just want to ensure the maximum genetic viability of the rebooted species.
Is that what the cool kids are calling it theses days?
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th February 2017, 09:48 AM   #1844
Beady
Philosopher
 
Beady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 42d 45'23.3"N, 84d 35' 10.8'W, 840'>MSL
Posts: 6,595
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Not at all. God can be bargained with, He showed as much with Abraham. I just want to ensure the maximum genetic viability of the rebooted species.
Incest worked just fine, twice before. If the third time is the charm, I'll find out I'm related to Taylor Swift.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
__________________
Ahh, screw it!
Beady is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th February 2017, 10:36 AM   #1845
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,918
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Is that what the cool kids are calling it theses days?
Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_population

http://biology.stackexchange.com/que...etic-diversity
halleyscomet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 16th February 2017, 11:22 PM   #1846
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Paul Bethke: In my usual spirit of boundless optimism, I have another question for you.

You appear to be claiming that, as part of the signs of the imminent arrival of this "god" of yours, the stars will fall from the sky.
Now, from the perspective of bronze-age goat herders, it was entirely plausible that the stars were little lights suspended in the firmament just above the mountain-tops. Thus, making them fall would be quite simple for a powerful, sky-dwelling entity.
However, we know know that this is not the case, and that the stars are massive objects located a considerable distance from the earth. The nearest, Proxima Centauri, is 4.25 light years away.
If your god, in a vengeful spasm the like of which he promised (to Noah) he would never repeat, launched the stars at us, we would have quite some time to prepare for this. Even at close to light speed, we would be able to observe the approach of Proxima Centauri for years before it collided with the earth. As the star is approximately 1.3 times the size of earth, it would then utterly obliterate our planet.
The other stars that would follow, as per the prediction, would be somewhat redundant, as there would be no-one left to observe them scattering the remaining fragments of the planet Earth across a wider area of the galaxy.
Is this how you envisage this sign? Does this not strike you as something of an overreaction by your god, as well as a breach of his promise never to destroy humanity again?
You are correct in one way in that the prophets of old had little understanding of creation as there is today. As prophecy must be fulfilled in such a way as to present the Creator as merciful, not wanting to destroy all humanity at once, as in the days of Noah, how are we to understand prophecy.
Rev_6:13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.

The way I conjure up this prophecy is simple, taking into account the vast universe.
One salient point to consider is the power and wisdom of the Creator.
Now a simple way is to have the Creator extinguish a predetermined star which will be announced before.
A good example will be Mars or any one of the prominent stars, so people will look out into the universe and find that the said star is no longer visible.

Once again, what must be understood is that Yahweh the Creator created all things in six days, so that nothing is impossible, as is stated.

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

So Cosmic, you see there is always a way to demonstrate the sovereignty of Yahweh the Creator when the time comes.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.

Last edited by Paul Bethke; 16th February 2017 at 11:23 PM.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 12:01 AM   #1847
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,183
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Now a simple way is to have the Creator extinguish a predetermined star which will be announced before.
A good example will be Mars or any one of the prominent stars, so people will look out into the universe and find that the said star is no longer visible.
Firstly Mars is not a star, it's a planet. Even your "prophets of old" understood the difference.

Secondly the sudden spontaneous disappearance of Mars would affect the entire solar system. Due to this thing called gravity, which you might have heard of.

Thirdly the disappearance of an actual star would be of interest only to astronomers, who would doubtless come up with lots of possible explanations for it, none of which would involve any hypothetical deities.

Fourthly the disappearance of a single star (or even many stars) is not what the Bible predicts, so it would not be a fulfillment of Biblical prophesy.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 12:01 AM   #1848
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,691
Mars is not a star

Sent from my SM-A300FU using Tapatalk
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 01:09 AM   #1849
Cosmic Yak
Graduate Poster
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 1,612
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You are correct in one way in that the prophets of old had little understanding of creation as there is today. As prophecy must be fulfilled in such a way as to present the Creator as merciful, not wanting to destroy all humanity at once, as in the days of Noah, how are we to understand prophecy.
Rev_6:13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.

The way I conjure up this prophecy is simple, taking into account the vast universe.
One salient point to consider is the power and wisdom of the Creator.
Now a simple way is to have the Creator extinguish a predetermined star which will be announced before.
A good example will be Mars or any one of the prominent stars, so people will look out into the universe and find that the said star is no longer visible.

Once again, what must be understood is that Yahweh the Creator created all things in six days, so that nothing is impossible, as is stated.

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

So Cosmic, you see there is always a way to demonstrate the sovereignty of Yahweh the Creator when the time comes.
Let me get this straight. What you are saying is that the prophets of old predicted things that were impossible, due to their incomplete understanding of how reality works. In order to make these prophecies come true, god then has to mess around with the laws of physics and the structure of the universe, to make the impossible possible, so his prophets won't be embarrassed. He will cause the stars to be not stars, but conveniently small lights in the sky, that will then be able to fall "like figs from a fig tree".
I see two major problems here. Firstly, why did this supposedly omniscient god not inspire his prophets to predict things that were consistent with the actuality of the universe, instead of making a really serious mistake and then having to go in and clean it up?
Secondly, how do you know (beyond your usual unevidenced assertions, by the way), that your god is not continuing to make these kinds of mistakes, and is filling your head with impossible nonsense as well?
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 01:11 AM   #1850
Cosmic Yak
Graduate Poster
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 1,612
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Firstly Mars is not a star, it's a planet. Even your "prophets of old" understood the difference.

Secondly the sudden spontaneous disappearance of Mars would affect the entire solar system. Due to this thing called gravity, which you might have heard of.

Thirdly the disappearance of an actual star would be of interest only to astronomers, who would doubtless come up with lots of possible explanations for it, none of which would involve any hypothetical deities.

Fourthly the disappearance of a single star (or even many stars) is not what the Bible predicts, so it would not be a fulfillment of Biblical prophesy.
This.
Paul Bethke, I thought you were infallible? How is it that your god has not explained the difference between a star and a planet, especially as you claim he made them?
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 03:26 AM   #1851
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
This.
Paul Bethke, I thought you were infallible? How is it that your god has not explained the difference between a star and a planet, especially as you claim he made them?
Cosmic that is not a problem, I mentioned Mars because some people are planning to travel to Mars in order to live there.--- http://www.mars-one.com/faq/selectio...tions-to-apply

So when Mars no longer exists then man’s plan will fail as stated----Obadiah 1:4 Though you soar like the eagle and make your nest among the stars, from there I will bring you down," declares the LORD.

So when we consider what the Creator is capable of, then planets and stars were made by him----Gen 1:16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.

So the ancients may not of known the difference between stars and planets, both are visible.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.

Last edited by Paul Bethke; 17th February 2017 at 03:27 AM.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 03:41 AM   #1852
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,183
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So the ancients may not of known the difference between stars and planets, both are visible.
As I already pointed out the ancients DID know the difference. They noticed that planets move relative to the fixed stars, so were well aware that these were two different things. If they had wanted to prophecy the sudden disappearance of Mars, or any other planet, they would have done so. They did not. They prophesised that the stars would fall to earth.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 03:52 AM   #1853
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,918
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Cosmic that is not a problem, I mentioned Mars because some people are planning to travel to Mars in order to live there.--- http://www.mars-one.com/faq/selectio...tions-to-apply

So when Mars no longer exists then man’s plan will fail as stated----Obadiah 1:4 Though you soar like the eagle and make your nest among the stars, from there I will bring you down," declares the LORD.

So when we consider what the Creator is capable of, then planets and stars were made by him----Gen 1:16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.

So the ancients may not of known the difference between stars and planets, both are visible.

Are you prophesying that Mars will no longer be there when man tries to land human beings on it?

The actual planet will have vanished?
halleyscomet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 04:55 AM   #1854
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Are you prophesying that Mars will no longer be there when man tries to land human beings on it?

The actual planet will have vanished?
As I say, I do not prophecy, but predict what is prophesied.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 05:01 AM   #1855
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,691
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
As I say, I do not prophecy, but predict what is prophesied.
Now you are claiming that you are not a prophet at all. Fine.

So what are your "predictions"?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 05:03 AM   #1856
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
As I already pointed out the ancients DID know the difference. They noticed that planets move relative to the fixed stars, so were well aware that these were two different things. If they had wanted to prophecy the sudden disappearance of Mars, or any other planet, they would have done so. They did not. They prophesised that the stars would fall to earth.
According to National Geographic, the planet Mars is visible without a telescope on many clear nights. The planets Jupiter, Mercury, Venus and Saturn are also viewable without the aid of magnification.

So they are seen as lights in the night sky, and considered to be stars.
Well I think that making the planets and stars disappear will be effective enough to convince people of the power of Yahweh the Creator—don’t you?
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 05:12 AM   #1857
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,967
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So the ancients may not of known the difference between stars and planets, both are visible.
Babbylonian and other early astronomers knew the difference between planets and stars.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 05:17 AM   #1858
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,183
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
According to National Geographic, the planet Mars is visible without a telescope on many clear nights. The planets Jupiter, Mercury, Venus and Saturn are also viewable without the aid of magnification.
Correct. The ancients were well aware of them, and gave them names.

Quote:
So they are seen as lights in the night sky, and considered to be stars.
Incorrect. As I said (twice now) planets move and stars are fixed, so even the ancients knew they were two different things. That's why they named one of them stars and the other planets.

Quote:
Well I think that making the planets and stars disappear will be effective enough to convince people of the power of Yahweh the Creator—don’t you?
Get back to me the day it happens and I'll tell you.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 05:18 AM   #1859
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Babbylonian and other early astronomers knew the difference between planets and stars.
People saw them as lights in the sky, they only came to be known as planets when man invented magnification.
Quote:
Brilliant Venus is the “evening star.” Okay, it’s not a star. It’s a planet. But people will call it the evening star all the same. In these past weeks, many have noticed Venus and been amazed at its brilliance in the west after sunset. It’s the brightest planet and very, very bright, and will display its greatest brilliancy as the evening “star” on or near February 17.
http://earthsky.org/astronomy-essent...saturn-mercury
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 05:21 AM   #1860
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,183
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
People saw them as lights in the sky, they only came to be known as planets when man invented magnification.
Nope, Babylonian (and Greek) astronomers had identified planets as entirely different things to stars long before magnification was invented. Because they move, and the stars don't.

ETA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancien...reek_astronomy

Quote:
The name "planet" comes from the Greek term πλανήτης (planētēs), meaning "wanderer", as ancient astronomers noted how certain lights moved across the sky in relation to the other stars. Five planets can be seen with the naked eye: Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, the Greek names being Hermes, Aphrodite, Ares, Zeus and Cronus. Sometimes the luminaries, the Sun and Moon, are added to the list of naked eye planets to make a total of seven. Since the planets disappear from time to time when they approach the Sun, careful attention is required to identify all five. Observations of Venus are not straightforward. Early Greeks thought that the evening and morning appearances of Venus represented two different objects, calling it Hesperus ("evening star") when it appeared in the western evening sky and Phosphorus ("light-bringer") when it appeared in the eastern morning sky. They eventually came to recognize that both objects were the same planet. Pythagoras is given credit for this realization.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

Last edited by Pixel42; 17th February 2017 at 05:23 AM.
Pixel42 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 05:25 AM   #1861
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,967
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
According to National Geographic, the planet Mars is visible without a telescope on many clear nights. The planets Jupiter, Mercury, Venus and Saturn are also viewable without the aid of magnification.

So they are seen as lights in the night sky, and considered to be stars.
Well I think that making the planets and stars disappear will be effective enough to convince people of the power of Yahweh the Creator—don’t you?
Cloud cover makes them disappear.

Actual disappearance of the physical universe? Sure that might convince people, except unless you actually grow the stones to tell people when this will occur (and soon is not acceptable, as the Bible has clearly demonstrated that particular word means nothing). Your statement is not a prophecy without an actual timeframe.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 05:42 AM   #1862
Cosmic Yak
Graduate Poster
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 1,612
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Cosmic that is not a problem, I mentioned Mars because some people are planning to travel to Mars in order to live there.--- http://www.mars-one.com/faq/selectio...tions-to-apply

So when Mars no longer exists then man’s plan will fail as stated----Obadiah 1:4 Though you soar like the eagle and make your nest among the stars, from there I will bring you down," declares the LORD.

So when we consider what the Creator is capable of, then planets and stars were made by him----Gen 1:16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.

So the ancients may not of known the difference between stars and planets, both are visible.
Are you saying the moon produces its own light?
__________________
Fortuna Faveat Fatuis
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 05:50 AM   #1863
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,918
Signs of the End Times - Part Two

Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Cloud cover makes them disappear.



Actual disappearance of the physical universe? Sure that might convince people, except unless you actually grow the stones to tell people when this will occur (and soon is not acceptable, as the Bible has clearly demonstrated that particular word means nothing). Your statement is not a prophecy without an actual timeframe.


He's just regurgitating part of the plot of the upcoming "Sunless Skies" video game.

https://www.failbettergames.com/category/sunless-skies/

Paul,

Since you're obviously a fan of the work of Failbetter Games, what's your Fallen London username? Mine is Halleyscomet

http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Halleyscomet

Last edited by halleyscomet; 17th February 2017 at 06:28 AM.
halleyscomet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 06:49 AM   #1864
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
According to National Geographic, the planet Mars is visible without a telescope on many clear nights. The planets Jupiter, Mercury, Venus and Saturn are also viewable without the aid of magnification.

So they are seen as lights in the night sky, and considered to be stars.
Well I think that making the planets and stars disappear will be effective enough to convince people of the power of Yahweh the Creator—don’t you?
Again, your "perfect, infallible" understanding seems to be misleading you. The very word you use for Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, demonstrates that "the ancients" distinguished the "wanderers" (πλανήτες) from the stars (ἀστέρες).

Further, nowhere in your "scriptures" is it predicted that Mars woujld "disappear", or is "falling from the sky like overripe figs" conflated with "not being there (or visible) any more".
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 06:52 AM   #1865
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
People saw them as lights in the sky, they only came to be known as planets when man invented magnification.
You are not listening...funny how your "infallible, perfect" understanding works.

Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn are visible to the naked eye; and were recognized as "not stars" by the "ancients"...
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 07:00 AM   #1866
Peregrinus
Muse
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 669
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
People saw them as lights in the sky, they only came to be known as planets when man invented magnification.
As others have mentioned, they were known as planets since time out of mind because they move relative to the field of "fixed" stars. That's what the word "planet" means!
Peregrinus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 07:09 AM   #1867
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,691
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
People saw them as lights in the sky, they only came to be known as planets when man invented magnification.
Wrong. Utterly wrong.

If you are unable to get even simple things like this correct, what use are your non-prophecies?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 08:10 AM   #1868
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,615
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So the ancients may not of known the difference between stars and planets, both are visible.
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
People saw them as lights in the sky, they only came to be known as planets when man invented magnification.
This is factually false, Paul. The difference between planets and stars was well known in ancient times, long prior to magnification. Perhaps you could research the words planeta and πλανήτης and report back here.

Last edited by JayUtah; 17th February 2017 at 08:14 AM.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 08:13 AM   #1869
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,615
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
As I say, I do not prophecy, but predict what is prophesied.
Are you claiming it is prophesied that Mars will vanish?

By the way, you really need to clarify your role. If you do not prophesy yourself, but merely repeat what others have claimed to be prophecy, you are not yourself a prophet. You are merely a follower, no different than any person who reads the Bible and decides to believe it. Yet you are claiming some sort of special role for yourself, ostensibly that of a prophet. If you do not prophesy yourself, you are not a prophet. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you are claiming to be ordinary, or extraordinary.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 08:24 AM   #1870
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 11,111
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
People saw them as lights in the sky, they only came to be known as planets when man invented magnification.
Wow! You are so very wrong.

Has someone, or possibly some sort of God, "blinded" you about basic history?
__________________
On 16 MAY 2017 Paul Bethke discussed some of the sexual prohibitions of his god regarding man-to-man sex acts and woman-to-woman sex acts: "So not only lesbian acts but also anal sex.."
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post11840580

A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 08:26 AM   #1871
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero.
Posts: 14,058
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
People saw them as lights in the sky, they only came to be known as planets when man invented magnification.
More proof that there is no supernatural being behind your scriptures. Would such a being not mention somewhere between telling fathers to throw rocks at their mouthy sons and not to wear garments of two types of cloth that those were stars and planets?
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 08:42 AM   #1872
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Are you claiming it is prophesied that Mars will vanish?

By the way, you really need to clarify your role. If you do not prophesy yourself, but merely repeat what others have claimed to be prophecy, you are not yourself a prophet. You are merely a follower, no different than any person who reads the Bible and decides to believe it. Yet you are claiming some sort of special role for yourself, ostensibly that of a prophet. If you do not prophesy yourself, you are not a prophet. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you are claiming to be ordinary, or extraordinary.
What you must understand is very simple, what is stated is prophecy, so Yahweh communicates with his servants and they record what he has communicated, that is prophecy. When I proclaim what is communicated, that is prophecy.
So when I predict what is communicated in accordance with the will of the Creator that is a prediction.
Hence:- Isa_44:26 who carries out the words of his servants and fulfils the predictions of his messengers, who says of Jerusalem, 'It shall be inhabited,' of the towns of Judah, 'They shall be built,' and of their ruins, 'I will restore them,'

The cardinal factor of the will of Yahweh is to establish the Kingdom of God here on earth and bring people to repentance.

So in accordance with what is prophesied in Revelation with regards to the stars :- Rev_6:13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
Rev_8:12 The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and
a third of the sun was struck,
a third of the moon, and
a third of the stars, so that
a third of them turned dark.
A third of the day was without light, and also
a third of the night.

Now this is prophesied and MUST still occur as there is no record of this having happened, so I must predict a time that this will occur according to the prophecy.

Psa_147:4 He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name.
Job_9:7 He speaks to the sun and it does not shine; he seals off the light of the stars.

So the END times will be an enormous demonstration of the creative power of Yahweh the God of Israel, Creator of all things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT_oDqOEGpc

By this time man will be in awe of God, no more speculation.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 08:53 AM   #1873
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,615
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
When I proclaim what is communicated, that is prophecy.
No, that is quotation. It doesn't make you any more important than anyone else who reads the Bible.

Quote:
So when I predict what is communicated in accordance with the will of the Creator that is a prediction.
No. If all you're doing is quoting the Bible, that doesn't make you a prophet. And the only times you have attempted prediction based on the Bible, you were wrong. That makes you a false prophet. Words mean things. Don't try to vaunt yourself up by insisting they must mean other things.

I've snipped your daily scriptural cut-and-paste in lieu of pressing you to research the history of ancient astronomy and correcting your blatant misconception of the ancients' knowledge of planets. Please follow up on that rather that just dump irrelevant scripture from your search tool.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 08:55 AM   #1874
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,967
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
What you must understand is very simple, what is stated is prophecy, so Yahweh communicates with his servants and they record what he has communicated, that is prophecy. When I proclaim what is communicated, that is prophecy.
So when I predict what is communicated in accordance with the will of the Creator that is a prediction.

<snipped>
If it's written down you aren't predicting it, you are repeating it.

Given that Johnny prophesied that these events would happen "soon" almost 2,000 years ago we can count Revelations as a book of failed prophesies and give it equal weight with those of Harold Camping, the end of Mayan calendar crazies and your own predictions of blinding and withered grass.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 09:03 AM   #1875
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
More proof that there is no supernatural being behind your scriptures. Would such a being not mention somewhere between telling fathers to throw rocks at their mouthy sons and not to wear garments of two types of cloth that those were stars and planets?
There is a reason for all the commands—so to respect ones parents is cardinal to a peaceful coexistence. It appears by your statement that you are in support of anarchy.

The origin of anarchy is when children disrespect their parents. That is why Ham was cursed.

Mixing the two garment will result in a person perspiring, that is what I am told.
So the Creator who created all things wanted man to live in harmony, and so gave laws for all occasions. So today it can be traced back where these laws have been ignored there is a resulting consequence in crime and sickness.

It is similar to not planting two kinds of crop in the same field.:- Deu_22:9 Do not plant two kinds of seed in your vineyard; if you do, not only the crops you plant but also the fruit of the vineyard will be defiled.
Lev_19:19 "'Keep my decrees. "'Do not mate different kinds of animals. "'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. "'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.


So again Yahweh had to teach people to live in harmony with creation.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 09:12 AM   #1876
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No, that is quotation. It doesn't make you any more important than anyone else who reads the Bible.
Wrong—people can quote, but not predict.
Quote:
No. If all you're doing is quoting the Bible, that doesn't make you a prophet. And the only times you have attempted prediction based on the Bible, you were wrong. That makes you a false prophet. Words mean things. Don't try to vaunt yourself up by insisting they must mean other things.
Nope it makes my prediction false—you see to predict is also to carry out and implement what is prophesied.
Quote:
I've snipped your daily scriptural cut-and-paste in lieu of pressing you to research the history of ancient astronomy and correcting your blatant misconception of the ancients' knowledge of planets. Please follow up on that rather that just dump irrelevant scripture from your search tool.
There is no need, according to what is written the stars were all that they were called—there is no mention of planets in the Scriptures, so in remaining with what is written, the heavenly host.
Thus---Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

There is NO blatant misconception on my part--it is you who blatantly ignore what is written.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 09:21 AM   #1877
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
If it's written down you aren't predicting it, you are repeating it.

Given that Johnny prophesied that these events would happen "soon" almost 2,000 years ago we can count Revelations as a book of failed prophesies and give it equal weight with those of Harold Camping, the end of Mayan calendar crazies and your own predictions of blinding and withered grass.
But you have missed the point—to predict is also to carry out and implement—but if in repeating something that is recorded as prophesied—then that is a prediction.

So to repeat the event as recorded in Joshua must be a prediction based on prophecy.( Jos 10:13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.)

So to repeat such an event based on prophecy will be a prediction—so as you say I will be repeating the event. But to predict an event that has not taken place in accordance with prophecy is not a repeat.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 09:23 AM   #1878
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,615
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Wrong—people can quote, but not predict.
And you're quoting, not predicting. Are you even reading what you write in these posts?

Quote:
Nope it makes my prediction false—you see to predict is also to carry out and implement what is prophesied.
And you fail on both counts. When you attempt to predict, the things you predict do not come to pass. And you are impotent at bringing about anything by yourself. While you claim greatness, you cannot show evidence of greatness.

Quote:
There is no need, according to what is written the stars were all that they were called...
No, that is not what your passages say. They mention stars. They do not assert that there were only stars. That's you trying to read your desired belief into the passage. You're making an argument from silence. That's a logical fallacy.

Quote:
There is NO blatant misconception on my part--it is you who blatantly ignore what is written.
No, I know the history of astronomy. You don't. You're claiming the people who wrote the Bible didn't differentiate between stars and planets. You are wrong, and the relevant facts are not to be found in the Bible. This is your problem: you lack the knowledge that puts the Bible text in a proper historical and scientific perspective.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 09:26 AM   #1879
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,615
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
But you have missed the point—to predict is also to carry out and implement
No, it isn't. If I predict that IBM's stock price will go up tomorrow and it does, I will have carried out and implemented nothing with regard to that. Once again you're trying to redefine words to coincide with your claims.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 17th February 2017, 09:34 AM   #1880
BStrong
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 9,904
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
inconsequential chatter snipped...

There is NO blatant misconception on my part--it is you who blatantly ignore what is written.
Call it what you will, but like every godhead mouthpiece that's come down the pike has with their "prophecies" or "predictions" of the end times, you're only talking out your fundamental based on the world's most popular work of fiction ever printed.

If it's any consolation, I'd say you're at least a half step ahead of scientology, but ultimately that isn't saying much.
__________________
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Col. Jeff Cooper, U.S.M.C.

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:22 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.