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Old 5th November 2016, 06:28 AM   #321
Border Reiver
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
What Paul is demonstrating is the debate tactic that includes behaviors such as putting mocking air quotes around the word "experts" or responding to discussion of expert consensus on a topic with "Says who?"

When reality conflicts with opinion, people incapable of admitting they were wrong resort to attacking the use of expert opinions and research.


I prefer the old lawyer adage, "When the facts are against you, pound on the law, when the law is against you, pound on the facts, and when BOTH the law and the facts are against you, pound on the table."

Paul's method of rebutting arguments barely rises to pounding on the table, but he's not really capable of arguing he either the historical facts, or Mosaic Law.
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Old 5th November 2016, 07:00 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Extraordinary. You have just admitted that you want me to be damned to hell for all eternity. You will not show me the evidence that I, and any skeptic here, need to be convinced, until it is too late for me, or anyone else, to repent.



What possible justification can there be for this act of inhuman cruelty?


There's a bit of old school Calvinism in the theology PB has expressed, mainly in the realm of predetermination. This is stated most explicitly in his justifications for genocide. The logic he's outlined seems to boils down to, if God wanted you saved he'd open your eyes. PB seems to take the fact that we don't accept him as a prophet to be evidence that his deity wants us damned. He further seems to feel justified in mocking us and feeling superior as a result.

I suspect some of this is an artifact of the explicitly racist theology he was presumably raised with before the fall of apartheid.
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Old 5th November 2016, 09:11 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Extraordinary. You have just admitted that you want me to be damned to hell for all eternity. You will not show me the evidence that I, and any skeptic here, need to be convinced, until it is too late for me, or anyone else, to repent.

What possible justification can there be for this act of inhuman cruelty?
No you have got it all wrong, you do not want to repent, so the choice is yours not mine.
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Old 5th November 2016, 09:14 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
There's a bit of old school Calvinism in the theology PB has expressed, mainly in the realm of predetermination. This is stated most explicitly in his justifications for genocide. The logic he's outlined seems to boils down to, if God wanted you saved he'd open your eyes. PB seems to take the fact that we don't accept him as a prophet to be evidence that his deity wants us damned. He further seems to feel justified in mocking us and feeling superior as a result.

I suspect some of this is an artifact of the explicitly racist theology he was presumably raised with before the fall of apartheid.
How come you are so utterly wrong—always surmising as usual.
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Old 5th November 2016, 09:15 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
No Paul, original thought involves referring to multiple sources, understanding and considering the information gained therein, and the expressing the resulting synthesis in your own terms.

Quotes from different sources can be used to buttress your thoughts, but aren't strictly speaking necessary.

I see, OK
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Old 5th November 2016, 09:19 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Your "infallible, perfect understanding" may need tuning...

You are still avoiding a raft of actual questions.
What actual question--please list them in a way that I can understand them, consider my limited ability.
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Old 5th November 2016, 09:22 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
No you have got it all wrong, you do not want to repent, so the choice is yours not mine.
Nope.

I argue I haven't done anything for which I need to repent. You say differently, on no more reliable a basis than your clearly false claim to infallibility and your equally false claim to have some special role in the end times. You accuse people of being sinners and of meriting hell on your mere say-so. And yes, it's your mere say-so unless you can provide some evidence that it derives from any authority beyond you. Your god is a no-show and your bible is a fairy tale. So since you have no evidence of your authority, your accusations begin and end with you; they extend no further. Unless you can produce your god you don't get to defer responsibility for your behavior.
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Old 5th November 2016, 09:23 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
...consider my limited ability.
No. You claim to be infallible. You don't get to make that claim and then beg your critics to go easy on you. If you can't keep up with your critics, then you're clearly not infallible. Get it?
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Old 5th November 2016, 09:42 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
What actual question--please list them in a way that I can understand them, consider my limited ability.


You can start with mine:

What evidence is there that the God of the Bible exists and the Gods of other pantheons do?


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Old 5th November 2016, 09:55 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
No you have got it all wrong, you do not want to repent, so the choice is yours not mine.
Repent for what? Why should I or anyone be obliged to make up crimes for which repentance is required? Is your gunderscored that much of a dick?

For that matter, what crimes are you repenting? Any? Or are you just so perfect and infallible that you have none?
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Old 5th November 2016, 10:10 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well in that case prepare for eternity in hell.
Your threats of hell do not scare anyone. There is no hell.

Why is this "hell" you speak of never mentioned in Tanakh?

It is written about many, many times in NT but not Tanakh. Why?

When was this "hell" created? Was it created "in the beginning"? If so, why did God not mention it in Tanakh? Did he forget he created it?

Or was this "hell" created sometime between when the Tanakh and the NT was written?

Please explain why it is not mentioned in Tanakh.
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Old 5th November 2016, 11:21 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
How come you are so utterly wrong—always surmising as usual.


And yet you refuse to clarify your position and explain what I supposedly got wrong.

Interesting.
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Old 5th November 2016, 04:01 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Your threats of hell do not scare anyone. There is no hell.

Why is this "hell" you speak of never mentioned in Tanakh?

It is written about many, many times in NT but not Tanakh. Why?

When was this "hell" created? Was it created "in the beginning"? If so, why did God not mention it in Tanakh? Did he forget he created it?

Or was this "hell" created sometime between when the Tanakh and the NT was written?

Please explain why it is not mentioned in Tanakh.
More remarkable still is the absence of any mention of a life after death in the Torah. This has been commented on since the Enlightenment. Here's Gibbon in his history of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Chapter 15.
We might naturally expect that a principle so essential to religion would have been revealed in the clearest terms to the chosen people of Palestine, and that it might safely have been intrusted to the hereditary priesthood of Aaron. It is incumbent on us to adore the mysterious dispensations of Providence [That's an amusing example of Gibbon's customary irony.] when we discover that the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is omitted in the law of Moses; it is darkly insinuated by the prophets; and during the long period which elapsed between the Egyptian and the Babylonian servitudes, the hopes as well as fears of the Jews appear to have been confined within the narrow compass of the present life.
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Old 5th November 2016, 04:44 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
What actual question--please list them in a way that I can understand them, consider my limited ability.
Wait: How does "infallible, perfect understanding" coexist with "limited ability"?

Be so kind as to explain that...
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Old 5th November 2016, 05:00 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
What actual question--<snip>
Here's one:

Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
What, in your opinion, would changing the "orbit of the earth" do, as far as giving the illusion of the "sun standing still in the sky"? Why would your 'god' lie to his fawning worshipers? Why did they mis-report the event? Why do your "scriptures" report misapprehensions as holy "fact"?
Here's another:

Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Why use "YHVH[sic]" here, instead of HASHEM[sic]" as before, or "Jehovah[sic]" as you have also done?
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Old 6th November 2016, 12:28 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
No you have got it all wrong, you do not want to repent, so the choice is yours not mine.
I have nothing to repent of, except my disbelief in your god.

I cannot believe in this god unless you can show me evidence of his existence.

You know this.

You first told me you would provide proof, then changed your mind.

You are knowingly and willingly withholding evidence that you already have, that you know will convert me, and thus save my immortal soul.

The only reason you can be doing this is because you do not want my soul to be saved.

None of this is on me.

Your mate Jesus, while he was supposedly wandering around the Middle East, performed miracles to demonstrate his power and win converts.

What would have happened if he had said 'Well, I know how to save you, and I know it will take some kind of demonstration to separate me from all the false prophets out there, BUUUT....I'm not going to. You're all doomed, and I'm going to enjoy watching you burn"?

Yet this is how you are proceeding. No-one will believe you. Your clear demonstration of sadistic immorality, your dishonesty and your delight in suffering are about as far away from the message of Christianity as it's possible to get.

And yet somehow this is on me.

Yeah, right. You had your chance to convert me, and you blew it. In front of everyone on this forum. Nice one.
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Old 6th November 2016, 03:21 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Your threats of hell do not scare anyone. There is no hell.

Why is this "hell" you speak of never mentioned in Tanakh?

It is written about many, many times in NT but not Tanakh. Why?

When was this "hell" created? Was it created "in the beginning"? If so, why did God not mention it in Tanakh? Did he forget he created it?

Or was this "hell" created sometime between when the Tanakh and the NT was written?

Please explain why it is not mentioned in Tanakh.

There is the contrast of those who live in the Presence of God and those who are destined to the PIT—outside the presence of God.
So the PIT can be hell outside the presence of God, a place reserved for the wicked.



Job_33:24 to be gracious to him and say, "Spare him from going down to the pit; I have found a ransom for him'—

Job_33:28 He redeemed my soul from going down to the pit, and I will live to enjoy the light.'

Job_33:30 to turn back his soul from the pit, that the light of life may shine on him.

Psa_28:1 Of David. To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.

Psa_55:23 But you, O God, will bring down the wicked into the pit of corruption; bloodthirsty and deceitful men will not live out half their days. But as for me, I trust in you.

Psa_103:4 who redeems your life from the pit and crowns you with love and compassion,

Num 16:30 But if Adonai does something new — if the ground opens up and swallows them with everything they own, and they go down alive to Sh'ol — then you will understand that these men have had contempt for Adonai."(CJB)

Psa_61:7 May he be enthroned in God's presence forever! Appoint grace and truth to preserve him!

Psa_68:3 But let the righteous rejoice and be glad in God's presence; yes, let them exult and rejoice.
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Old 6th November 2016, 03:25 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Nope.

I argue I haven't done anything for which I need to repent. You say differently, on no more reliable a basis than your clearly false claim to infallibility and your equally false claim to have some special role in the end times. You accuse people of being sinners and of meriting hell on your mere say-so. And yes, it's your mere say-so unless you can provide some evidence that it derives from any authority beyond you. Your god is a no-show and your bible is a fairy tale. So since you have no evidence of your authority, your accusations begin and end with you; they extend no further. Unless you can produce your god you don't get to defer responsibility for your behavior.
Psa_140:13 The righteous will surely give thanks to your name; the upright will live in your presence.

I am extremely glad that you have never sinned—so therefore you do not have to repent.

Luke_15:7 I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who turns to God from his sins than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need to repent.
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Old 6th November 2016, 03:29 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No. You claim to be infallible. You don't get to make that claim and then beg your critics to go easy on you. If you can't keep up with your critics, then you're clearly not infallible. Get it?
My limit ability does not effect my infallibility!
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Old 6th November 2016, 03:35 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
You can start with mine:

What evidence is there that the God of the Bible exists and the Gods of other pantheons do?


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Well for starters creation exuberates in his existence.
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Old 6th November 2016, 03:40 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Repent for what? Why should I or anyone be obliged to make up crimes for which repentance is required? Is your gunderscored that much of a dick?

For that matter, what crimes are you repenting? Any? Or are you just so perfect and infallible that you have none?
If you have never lied or stolen or committed adultery, then for starters you need not repent of that---you see the end times is to establish those who have not sinned with those who have sinned and do not repent.

I have repented, and call all others to repent so as a just Creator can forgive those who have wronged others.
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Old 6th November 2016, 03:45 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
And yet you refuse to clarify your position and explain what I supposedly got wrong.

Interesting.
You surmise about my position, making erroneous suppositions of what you think you know about me—in this way you are so ridiculously wrong in your synopsis.
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Old 6th November 2016, 03:52 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
More remarkable still is the absence of any mention of a life after death in the Torah. This has been commented on since the Enlightenment. Here's Gibbon in his history of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Chapter 15.
We might naturally expect that a principle so essential to religion would have been revealed in the clearest terms to the chosen people of Palestine, and that it might safely have been intrusted to the hereditary priesthood of Aaron. It is incumbent on us to adore the mysterious dispensations of Providence [That's an amusing example of Gibbon's customary irony.] when we discover that the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is omitted in the law of Moses; it is darkly insinuated by the prophets; and during the long period which elapsed between the Egyptian and the Babylonian servitudes, the hopes as well as fears of the Jews appear to have been confined within the narrow compass of the present life.
Well life after death is very clearly stated for those who love and obey God--Psa_16:11 You make me know the path of life; in your presence is unbounded joy, in your right hand eternal delight.

So the eternal joy of being in the Presence of God---in contrast as being cast down to the PIT---Job_33:24 then [God] is gracious to him and says, 'Redeem him from going down to the pit; I have found a ransom.' (CJB)
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Old 6th November 2016, 03:54 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Wait: How does "infallible, perfect understanding" coexist with "limited ability"?

Be so kind as to explain that...
Well is it not to do with my articulation of the English language as you so often mention?
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Old 6th November 2016, 04:10 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Here's one:
So now when Joshua who directed God to stop the sun in its orbit as he knew it—would make any difference to what he understood—surely you understand that they at that time did not know what science has discovered. It appeared as this ignorance did not prevent this from happening.

Quote:
Here's another:
The different Names of God are used throughout the Scripture and so one translation uses one Name and another translation uses another Name—So what Name must one use to distinguish the God of Israel the Creator from so called other deities that people refer to today?

Just merely to say God is not sufficient—there must be a distinction and a reference to which god is being addressed—not only that but the laws of that God must accompany his Name.

The laws of YHVH is his Name.--- Psa_138:2 I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your Name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your Name and your Word.
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Old 6th November 2016, 04:13 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I have nothing to repent of, except my disbelief in your god.

I cannot believe in this god unless you can show me evidence of his existence.

You know this.

You first told me you would provide proof, then changed your mind.

You are knowingly and willingly withholding evidence that you already have, that you know will convert me, and thus save my immortal soul.

The only reason you can be doing this is because you do not want my soul to be saved.

None of this is on me.

Your mate Jesus, while he was supposedly wandering around the Middle East, performed miracles to demonstrate his power and win converts.

What would have happened if he had said 'Well, I know how to save you, and I know it will take some kind of demonstration to separate me from all the false prophets out there, BUUUT....I'm not going to. You're all doomed, and I'm going to enjoy watching you burn"?

Yet this is how you are proceeding. No-one will believe you. Your clear demonstration of sadistic immorality, your dishonesty and your delight in suffering are about as far away from the message of Christianity as it's possible to get.

And yet somehow this is on me.

Yeah, right. You had your chance to convert me, and you blew it. In front of everyone on this forum. Nice one.
OK so can you ever forgive me?
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Old 6th November 2016, 04:20 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So now when Joshua who directed God to stop the sun in its orbit as he knew it—would make any difference to what he understood—surely you understand that they at that time did not know what science has discovered. It appeared as this ignorance did not prevent this from happening.

It was the writer's ignorance that led him to it make that story up. If he had known what the result of stopping the earth's rotation would actually be he would never have written something so nonsensical. But he didn't, so there the nonsensical story is, making it abundantly clear that it is just a story and not a report of something that actually happened.
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Old 6th November 2016, 04:35 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well life after death is very clearly stated for those who love and obey God--Psa_16:11 You make me know the path of life; in your presence is unbounded joy, in your right hand eternal delight.

So the eternal joy of being in the Presence of God---in contrast as being cast down to the PIT---Job_33:24 then [God] is gracious to him and says, 'Redeem him from going down to the pit; I have found a ransom.' (CJB)
That means, dying and being buried. When people die, they go down to the pit. That is; their corpses are interred. There is no suggestion in Job that they are alive or conscious when they go there. The word translated "soul" in the Tanakh means simply "living person". "You make me know the path of life" refers to the physical life of a living person.

ETA You may read SheolWP that
The Hebrew Scriptures themselves have few references to existence after death. The notion of resurrection appears in two late biblical sources, Daniel 12 and Isaiah 25-26.
End ETA.

The belief in life after death came late to Judaism. Even in Jesus' day it was controversial. In no fewer than four places in the New Testament we are told that Pharisees believed in a future life, but Sadducees, who included the priests, didn't. Paul makes use of this disagreement when hailed before the Sanhedrin in Acts 23.
6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. 7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided. 8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

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Old 6th November 2016, 05:06 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
No you have got it all wrong, you do not want to repent, so the choice is yours not mine.
But you've presented no case as to why anyone should "repent".
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Old 6th November 2016, 05:58 AM   #350
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Signs of the End Times - Part Two

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
How come you are so utterly wrong—always surmising as usual.


You misspelled "analyzing."


Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You surmise about my position, making erroneous suppositions of what you think you know about me—in this way you are so ridiculously wrong in your synopsis.


That doesn't actually say what I got wrong.

Are you doing this on purpose?

Do non-answers like that work for you in meatspace?

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Old 6th November 2016, 06:04 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well life after death is very clearly stated for those who love and obey God--Psa_16:11 You make me know the path of life; in your presence is unbounded joy, in your right hand eternal delight.



So the eternal joy of being in the Presence of God---in contrast as being cast down to the PIT---Job_33:24 then [God] is gracious to him and says, 'Redeem him from going down to the pit; I have found a ransom.' (CJB)


Why do you keep quoting the Bible to people who don't believe it to be the word of God?

This is a serious question. Why do you keep using a tactic you know will not work? Is it because you know from your abysmal track record as an evangelist that you will fail so you're just going with the easiest, lowest thought, tactic?
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Old 6th November 2016, 06:14 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
There is the contrast of those who live in the Presence of God and those who are destined to the PIT—outside the presence of God.
So the PIT can be hell outside the presence of God, a place reserved for the wicked.
<tedious key-word-searched scripturesnip>
First, you are trying to sell the intangible "presence" of a 'god' you have not yet bothered to demonstrate to exist. Cosmic pig in a theological poke.

Second, if we are to take the "words" of your 'god' seriouosly, you, personally, are one of "the wicked", as, by your own admission, you pick and chose which among the mitzvot you will deign to follow.

Oh, well.
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Old 6th November 2016, 06:16 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
My limit ability does not effect my infallibility!
There is goes, again. How can you even pretend to claim to be "infallible", when you cannot be arsed to used words correctly?
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Old 6th November 2016, 06:20 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well for starters creation exuberates in his existence.
I do wish you would actually answer this question...in what way, specifically, does "creation" "exuberate" the "existence" of your 'god'?
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Old 6th November 2016, 06:21 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You surmise about my position, making erroneous suppositions of what you think you know about me—in this way you are so ridiculously wrong in your synopsis.
An "infallible" "prophet" would have no trouble clarifying their position; someone with "perfect understanding" would know why they ought to do so...
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Old 6th November 2016, 06:27 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well is it not to do with my articulation of the English language as you so often mention?
You claim "infallibility"; yet you cannot be arsed to use words correctly.

Pro tip: "dilution" and "delusion" are different, unrelated words.

You claim not to need to be able to read your own scriptures, because of your "infallible, perfect understanding", yet you cannot express yourself clearly (or correctly) in the language you claim is adequate for that "perfect understanding".

I am as prone to typos as the next person, but then, I do not claim to be an "infallible" "prophet" with "perfect understanding"...
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Old 6th November 2016, 06:37 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well for starters creation exuberates in his existence.


Sorry, the world shows no more exuberance for Yahweh then it does for Zeus, Thor or Ba'al. Try again.
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Old 6th November 2016, 06:49 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So now when Joshua who directed God to stop the sun in its orbit as he knew it—would make any difference to what he understood—surely you understand that they at that time did not know what science has discovered. It appeared as this ignorance did not prevent this from happening.
Mr. Bethke, this is remarkably dishonest, even for your demonstrated practice. Here is the question I asked (for the third time, now):
Quote:
What, in your opinion, would changing the "orbit of the earth" do, as far as giving the illusion of the "sun standing still in the sky"? Why would your 'god' lie to his fawning worshipers? Why did they mis-report the event? Why do your "scriptures" report misapprehensions as holy "fact"?
Note that this was in response to your claim that your 'god' could "change the orbit of the earth" anytime it wanted to.

You have already stated that you "believe as they believed" (which you appear to be contradicting here, but that's a different issue); my question was not about the scientific ignorance proclaimed as "truth" in your "scriptures", but about the limitations of your "infallible, perfect understanding".

If, in fact, you had perfect understanding, a simple question would not confuse you so; if in fact, you were "infallible" you would not so dishonestly evade and misdirect a simple question (as when you pretended that it was I who was mistaken about the solar system, instead of you, who, by your own words, "believe as they believed").

So, once more:
Quote:
What, in your opinion, would changing the "orbit of the earth" do, as far as giving the illusion of the "sun standing still in the sky"? Why would your 'god' lie to his fawning worshipers? Why did they mis-report the event? Why do your "scriptures" report misapprehensions as holy "fact"?
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
The different Names of God are used throughout the Scripture and so one translation uses one Name and another translation uses another Name—So what Name must one use to distinguish the God of Israel the Creator from so called other deities that people refer to today?
Once again, you have evaded the actual question, which was about your sloppy misuse of "YHVH[sic] in one place and "HASHEM[sic]" in another, with no idea why.

This demonstrates that you have no idea where your error lies. The "scriptures" contain multiple was to address your 'god' by name and title. Each translation interprets those names and titles differently, observing or ignoring traditions of address as the editors see fit.

One of your problems is that, as you brag about not needing to be able to read the actual texts, you cannot tell which address or title is being used, and why; and you do not understand the differences in the interpretations of the translations to pick that up from the version-shopped texts you cherry-pick among.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Just merely to say God is not sufficient—there must be a distinction and a reference to which god is being addressed—not only that but the laws of that God must accompany his Name.
"Laws" that you violate without even knowing when, or how, as you are inconsistent about which interpretation of which translation you are using to support your pose of "infallible, perfect understanding".

There are differences atween "YHVH", "YHWH", "Adonai", "Elohiom", and "Ha Shem"; differences of which you are demonstrably ignorant.

That same fractal wrongness pervades your every use of your "scriptures".
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Old 6th November 2016, 06:51 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Why do you keep quoting the Bible to people who don't believe it to be the word of God?

This is a serious question. Why do you keep using a tactic you know will not work? Is it because you know from your abysmal track record as an evangelist that you will fail so you're just going with the easiest, lowest thought, tactic?
...it's hard to web-search an appropriate, on-topic response...
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Old 6th November 2016, 06:58 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
OK so can you ever forgive me?
I don't know.

Have you repented?
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