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Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 17th February 2017, 07:59 AM   #2681
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Can we stop with stereotyping the opposition?
Only when the stereotype isn't overwhelmingly accurate.
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Old 17th February 2017, 07:59 AM   #2682
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Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
I was watching the BBC news on wednesday (I listen to the BBC World news in the morning) and Adnan Nawaz was doing a cam interview with UCLA professor (of politics/expert on the presidency - i can't remember his name) in which Nawaz uncharacteristically asked "Is there a problem with the president's intellect?" ie. the way Trump analyses/dismisses news reports and responds. O.o I was surprised. The response was roughly "well, it's a problem that it's a question that has to be asked".

It's difficult to think of Trump as unintelligent, and yet I do not get the impression that he is in any way a critical thinker. I think he's completely blinded by his own bias and really believes that most of the press reports are false and unfair because he cannot view himself or his actions even slightly objectively.

I see no reason why.

As time passes and we are exposed to more and more of his antics I see even less reason why. He has bumbled and failed his way through his life. He just started out with more than most, and was insulated from his screw-ups to some degree by people who were tied closely enough to him financially that they had a personal stake in keeping him afloat.

In a one-on-one test of intellect between him and the average house cat I'd put my money on the cat.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:00 AM   #2683
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Can we stop with stereotyping the opposition?
Stereotyping can actually be useful, so long as you remember that it doesn't apply to all.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:06 AM   #2684
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Only when the stereotype isn't overwhelmingly accurate.
Stereotypes of either Republicans or Democrats don't really further any political discussion at all. We should be discussing issues and events (and, of course, particular people), not casting aspersions at the folks we regard as the bad guys.

For instance, it's completely fair to say that McCain behaved abominably when he suggested that no new SC justices would be considered in a Clinton administration. It's fair to say that the Republicans in the Senate behaved badly when they refused to have a hearing on Garland.

But to say that Republicans in general are bad because of X really isn't a political discussion so much as a dull slur.

The same, of course, applies to similar comments about Democrats, conservatives, liberals, Libertarians, etc.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:07 AM   #2685
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Stereotyping can actually be useful, so long as you remember that it doesn't apply to all.
Stereotyping a whole party really isn't a political discussion in any meaningful sense of the term.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:13 AM   #2686
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Reince Priebus:

Quote:
the New York Times story reporting that some Trump campaign associates had repeated contact with Russia before the election, he asserted, is “also fake”.
Then:

Quote:
Priebus insisted, though, that he had spoken with high-level intelligence officials who told him that the Times story about the campaign contact with Russia was “grossly overstated and inaccurate.”
Then:
Quote:
“I wouldn’t come on your show and say something like that if I didn't have a green light and approval to say it,” Priebus added.
(Remember Mike Pence? )

Finally:
Quote:
Asked if he could say for sure that there were no contacts between the Trump campaign and Russia, Priebus couldn’t, instead offering, “I don’t represent the campaign,” before repeating that the reports are exaggerated.
Wonder what he really thinks, and what he really knows.

(Bolding in the quotes mine)
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:15 AM   #2687
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post

I kinda liked this one;
"I have nothing to do with Russia. To the best of my knowledge no person that I deal with does."

And learning that Hillary gave Russia 20% of our uranium was very enlightening, too.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:20 AM   #2688
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Quite separate from political discourse for a moment, could we please remember that restraining someone is to "rein" him in as in pulling on the harness, not to "reign" him in as in calling in the red queen to cut off his head.

Ok, back to our regular commentary on whatever onerously stupid and appallingly ignorant nonsense our fearless leader is perpetrating this morning.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:23 AM   #2689
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The BBC journalist made a good comment yesterday and that is how much TV Trump has the time to watch! He's obviously glued to the shows he hates so much for hours at a time. Fox News TV reviewer as next job?
That is odd. Trump singled out Don Lemon of CNN and I too wondered how Lemon would respond on his show last night. But, unlike the president, I didn't have time to watch. I usually don't.

I was also struck by the fact, in the recent Pew poll linked here Trump's overall approval ratings are not good, the lowest since they've been tracking this (which goes back five presidents), yet he consistently scored close to 90% approval with respondents who identified themselves as Republicans or lean Republican. They didn't provide numbers for people who don't identify with either party but the overall numbers indicate Trump's not doing too well with them.

In fact, his approval ratings are so uniformly high with Republicans/lean Republican it looks like a knee jerk response. No matter what they're asked they're going to say Trump is doing great. Anyone for critical thinking? Look at the soaring numbers on expectations for the economy among Republicans/lean Republican. After eight years of very low expectations the numbers take off. On the bar graph the line between 2016 and 2017 is vertical. In reality, the economic numbers have been fairly good the past five or six years. Again, it looks knee jerk: if a Democrat is in the White House Republicans/lean Republican will say the economy stinks and they don't expect it to get better. If a Republican is in the White House the economy looks tremendous.

It's the opposite of critical thinking but the Republicans either can't see that or don't care.

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Old 17th February 2017, 08:23 AM   #2690
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Can we stop with stereotyping the opposition?

Sure.

Just as soon as they stop validating those stereotypes.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:31 AM   #2691
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Stereotypes of either Republicans or Democrats don't really further any political discussion at all. We should be discussing issues and events (and, of course, particular people), not casting aspersions at the folks we regard as the bad guys.

For instance, it's completely fair to say that McCain behaved abominably when he suggested that no new SC justices would be considered in a Clinton administration. It's fair to say that the Republicans in the Senate behaved badly when they refused to have a hearing on Garland.

But to say that Republicans in general are bad because of X really isn't a political discussion so much as a dull slur.

The same, of course, applies to similar comments about Democrats, conservatives, liberals, Libertarians, etc.
But the blatant and outlandish hypocrisy of the Republican when it comes to 'investigations' is a political discussion. They are ready, willing and able to investigate anything and everything with Hillary, but they have KellyAnne and Flynn clearly violating the law and they do nothing.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:37 AM   #2692
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I see the Trump is doing a "Massage Donald's Ego" rally this weekend.

The travel and protection expenses of Trump and family are coming out of Homeland Security. At the rate he's going they won't have enough money for a speed bump, never mind a wall.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:42 AM   #2693
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
But the blatant and outlandish hypocrisy of the Republican when it comes to 'investigations' is a political discussion. They are ready, willing and able to investigate anything and everything with Hillary, but they have KellyAnne and Flynn clearly violating the law and they do nothing.
When you're speaking of those in Congress, I don't regard that statement as stereotyping. And it's the politicians that ought to be of interest.

By the way, NewYorkGuy just made a post about poll results and how Republicans differ from the norms. I'm totally good with that sort of discussion.
So, if you tie what you say above to poll results, I've no beef at all.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:43 AM   #2694
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
I see the Trump is doing a "Massage Donald's Ego" rally this weekend.

The travel and protection expenses of Trump and family are coming out of Homeland Security. At the rate he's going they won't have enough money for a speed bump, never mind a wall.
Why not? Are the Mexicans paying for Trump's travel and protection, too?
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:43 AM   #2695
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
<snip>

I was also struck by the fact, in the recent Pew poll linked here Trump's overall approval ratings are not good, the lowest since they've been tracking this (which goes back five presidents), yet he consistently scored close to 90% approval with respondents who identified themselves as Republicans or lean Republican. They didn't provide numbers for people who don't identify with ether party but the overall numbers indicate Trump's not doing too well with them.

<snip>

The Republicans are the ether party.

They should lay off the stuff. It's obvious they don't have a lot of functioning brain cells left.

These approval ratings demonstrate that fact.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:50 AM   #2696
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The Republicans are the ether party. They should lay off the stuff. It's obvious they don't have a lot of functioning brain cells left. These approval ratings demonstrate that fact.
I corrected that typo before I saw this message. Sorry.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:51 AM   #2697
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The Republicans are the ether party.

They should lay off the stuff. It's obvious they don't have a lot of functioning brain cells left.

These approval ratings demonstrate that fact.
It may also be a case that they think Trump is "doing a great job" but when pressed find it really difficult to come up with concrete examples.

They may be under the impression that Trump has successfully repealed the ACA, firmed up the border is well on the way to getting Mexico to pay for building a wall but when presented with what has actually been done to this point, may have think again.
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Old 17th February 2017, 08:59 AM   #2698
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Why not? Are the Mexicans paying for Trump's travel and protection, too?
I'm sure they'd help out "protecting" him
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Old 17th February 2017, 09:08 AM   #2699
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
But the blatant and outlandish hypocrisy of the Republican when it comes to 'investigations' is a political discussion. They are ready, willing and able to investigate anything and everything with Hillary, but they have KellyAnne and Flynn clearly violating the law and they do nothing.
It's been fairly clear over the past eight years that it is not, in any way, about running the country. It's about winning.

They really do take seriously the 'winning isn't everything, it's the only thing' ******** mantra. If it's between losing and a prosperous US or winning and a depression, they'll take the depression. After all, they'll be alright, how many of them don't have an independent income?
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Old 17th February 2017, 09:14 AM   #2700
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
One wonders if he's playing the role of the idiot or if he's one in real life.

It's like he's trying real hard to be as stupid as possible on TV.
I don't think he needs to try real hard to accomplish that.
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Old 17th February 2017, 09:33 AM   #2701
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Donald Trump aide accuses BBC of 'fake news'

In a heated exchange between Newsnight's Evan Davis and an aide to President Trump, both the presenter and the BBC were accused of "fake news".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39000118
The Trump aide in question.
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Old 17th February 2017, 09:43 AM   #2702
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
When the election cheating means we should get Clinton.
The problem here is that I don't think it actually constitutes cheating. If selective propaganda and influence were to constitute cheating, then we'd have to disallow all advertisements that aren't a direct product of the candidate's themselves, as well as any grass roots type of rallying. All of them are attempts to influence the opinion of the voters.

In this case, the influence was coming from outside the US, but I'm not sure that's really rare - lots of people are influenced by BBC articles about the potential candidates, for example. And I don't think it's reasonable to consider BBC articles "cheating" if they favor one candidate over the other.

The element of this situation that deserves some attention is the hacking part. But that's a criminal action, or maybe it would be considered spying (I'm quite certain that our three-letter agencies are engaged in trying to hack foreign servers & assets pretty regularly).

I don't think this situation constitutes "cheating" any more than I would if the information had been fed to wikileaks from a domestic source. Indeed, I consider it no more cheating than if the information had been released int he form of an article published in a respected newspaper and acquired from a domestic source.

It influenced people's decisions... but that's what the entire campaign is about.
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Old 17th February 2017, 09:48 AM   #2703
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Agreed but I'm not sure it's buyer's regret. I suspect a lot of the Trump vote was not a vote for Trump but a vote for "not HRC". IOW, they didn't buy Trump, they rejected HRC.

If that is correct, then there's little loyalty and patience for Trump to bank on. That would mean, in turn, that he has little, if any, popular support to push his agenda. For example, "repeal and replace" is already a distant memory because Trump (or the whole GOP, for that matter) can't come up with anything for the "replace" part. As the Trump Administration stumbles from one **** up to the next, their ability to move policy through Congress fades in equal measure.

I wonder if the Trump Administration might just bog down in its own incompetence to the point that nothing good or bad happens; that we just bumble along until the next election. Of course, unforeseen events around the world can upset that apple cart in just a few hours time.
I speculate that the people who rejected HRC in this fashion might very well be fine with Trump (and the entire GOP) being unable to push any policies through over the next 4 years. Sort of a case of preferring nothing at all to what's happened in the past. There may very well be a sizable portion of people who prefer to gridlock the entire legislative and executive branches rather than have it continue in past fashion.

It might be as close to a Brewster's Millions "None of the Above" vote as it's possible to get.

Of course, that is pure speculation on my part, so who knows.
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Old 17th February 2017, 09:49 AM   #2704
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Already a favorite for Typo of the Year.
Not a typo. It's actually a pretty common reference for those of us in this part.

I wish I could claim credit for coining it, but alas I have merely copied those who are more clever than I.
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Old 17th February 2017, 09:53 AM   #2705
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Only when the stereotype isn't overwhelmingly accurate.
Then exactly the same thing can be said of Democrats.

See how far that gets us?
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Old 17th February 2017, 09:58 AM   #2706
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
That is odd. Trump singled out Don Lemon of CNN and I too wondered how Lemon would respond on his show last night. But, unlike the president, I didn't have time to watch. I usually don't.

I was also struck by the fact, in the recent Pew poll linked here Trump's overall approval ratings are not good, the lowest since they've been tracking this (which goes back five presidents), yet he consistently scored close to 90% approval with respondents who identified themselves as Republicans or lean Republican. They didn't provide numbers for people who don't identify with either party but the overall numbers indicate Trump's not doing too well with them.

In fact, his approval ratings are so uniformly high with Republicans/lean Republican it looks like a knee jerk response. No matter what they're asked they're going to say Trump is doing great. Anyone for critical thinking? Look at the soaring numbers on expectations for the economy among Republicans/lean Republican. After eight years of very low expectations the numbers take off. On the bar graph the line between 2016 and 2017 is vertical. In reality, the economic numbers have been fairly good the past five or six years. Again, it looks knee jerk: if a Democrat is in the White House Republicans/lean Republican will say the economy stinks and they don't expect it to get better. If a Republican is in the White House the economy looks tremendous.

It's the opposite of critical thinking but the Republicans either can't see that or don't care.
Trump is a means to an end in their minds. They think that they can accomplish many traditional Republican priorities such as less regulations accross the board on everything from right wing judges to roll backs on Health insurance to helping oil companies and financial institutions to gutting workplace rules and environmental regulations. While at the same time probably not going along with his trade ideas or infrastructure. That Trump happens to be a nonstop liar is not news to anyone. This is secondary in their minds. Trump is a useful idiot.
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Old 17th February 2017, 10:00 AM   #2707
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I speculate that the people who rejected HRC in this fashion might very well be fine with Trump (and the entire GOP) being unable to push any policies through over the next 4 years. Sort of a case of preferring nothing at all to what's happened in the past. There may very well be a sizable portion of people who prefer to gridlock the entire legislative and executive branches rather than have it continue in past fashion.

It might be as close to a Brewster's Millions "None of the Above" vote as it's possible to get.

Of course, that is pure speculation on my part, so who knows.
The champions of Clinton rejection voted in an entire government of RW Republicans to accomplish... Gridlock?
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Old 17th February 2017, 10:06 AM   #2708
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
"The President is very much a figurehead - he wields no real power whatsoever. He is apparently chosen by the government, but the qualities he is required to display are not those of leadership but those of finely judged outrage. For this reason the President is always a controversial choice, always an infuriating but fascinating character. His job is not to wield power but to draw attention away from it." D. Adams

Lol. This deserves more discussion, in a much more light-hearted venue.

Conspiracy Theories: Trump as a Machiavellian Scholar
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Old 17th February 2017, 10:08 AM   #2709
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
The champions of Clinton rejection voted in an entire government of RW Republicans to accomplish... Gridlock?
Sort of. I kinda think that the RW congress outcome was the result of many people fire-walling the vote because they believed that Clinton would win. Nobody *expected* Trump to win. So they voted all right for congress in order to produce gridlock. But then Trump *did* win, so.... yeah. That happened.
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Old 17th February 2017, 10:12 AM   #2710
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It may also be a case that they think Trump is "doing a great job" but when pressed find it really difficult to come up with concrete examples.

They may be under the impression that Trump has successfully repealed the ACA, firmed up the border is well on the way to getting Mexico to pay for building a wall but when presented with what has actually been done to this point, may have think again.
About the same percentage of Republicans that approve of Trump also approve of the Muslim ban. That was incredibly high profile, so it might have been on a lot of their minds when thinking about how DT is doing a great job for them. All the recent press about ICE going after illegal aliens is probably also helping his in-party approval rating.

Last edited by Civet; 17th February 2017 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 17th February 2017, 10:13 AM   #2711
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Then exactly the same thing can be said of Democrats.

See how far that gets us?
No the same thing can't be said.
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Old 17th February 2017, 10:14 AM   #2712
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Can we stop with stereotyping the opposition?
An observation is not the same as stereotyping.
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Old 17th February 2017, 10:16 AM   #2713
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I was also struck by the fact, in the recent Pew poll linked here Trump's overall approval ratings are not good, the lowest since they've been tracking this (which goes back five presidents), yet he consistently scored close to 90% approval with respondents who identified themselves as Republicans or lean Republican.
Trump is an optical illusion. Do you see a goblet or a face? There are ways to manipulate lettering such that one image can be read as opposite words. (Death/life for example).

Talk radio shows yesterday were literally talking about being physically aroused by Trump's press conference. Most people here saw it as a disaster. But: What I think his supporters took away is that he is a patriot. Even though he builds with Chinese steel, imports wives from Eastern Europe, imports Polish laborers and has outsourced jobs to Mexico. My biggest question for his supporters is why they give him a pass on so many false claims. (Electoral College landslide, murder rate highest in 45-47 years). The 3 million illegal votes has a vanishingly small probability of being true - like 1 in a trillion.

Some see a patriot, some see a traitor. They're looking at the same image but are primed to see what they're looking for. I don't see a path toward reconciliation. The sides are talking past each other and over each other, literally making so much noise that courtesy and clear thinking suffer. Trump and the media are partners in this: They both love controversy. Fox News could play an important role here. If they really dug into different aspects of conservatism and produced informed debates that make people feel smart, there might be an audience. If someone interrupts or goes over the allowed time, their mike would be turned off.

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I can't be the only one.
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Old 17th February 2017, 10:27 AM   #2714
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Then exactly the same thing can be said of Democrats.
No it can't.
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Old 17th February 2017, 10:30 AM   #2715
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Trump is an optical illusion. Do you see a goblet or a face? There are ways to manipulate lettering such that one image can be read as opposite words. (Death/life for example).

Talk radio shows yesterday were literally talking about being physically aroused by Trump's press conference. Most people here saw it as a disaster. But: What I think his supporters took away is that he is a patriot. Even though he builds with Chinese steel, imports wives from Eastern Europe, imports Polish laborers and has outsourced jobs to Mexico. My biggest question for his supporters is why they give him a pass on so many false claims. (Electoral College landslide, murder rate highest in 45-47 years). The 3 million illegal votes has a vanishingly small probability of being true - like 1 in a trillion.

Some see a patriot, some see a traitor. They're looking at the same image but are primed to see what they're looking for. I don't see a path toward reconciliation. The sides are talking past each other and over each other, literally making so much noise that courtesy and clear thinking suffer. Trump and the media are partners in this: They both love controversy. Fox News could play an important role here. If they really dug into different aspects of conservatism and produced informed debates that make people feel smart, there might be an audience. If someone interrupts or goes over the allowed time, their mike would be turned off.

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I can't be the only one.
Trump said it himself, "I Could Stand In the Middle Of Fifth Avenue And Shoot Somebody And I Wouldn't Lose Any Voters", and I think he's right.
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Old 17th February 2017, 10:54 AM   #2716
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Trump is a means to an end in their minds. They think that they can accomplish many traditional Republican priorities such as less regulations accross the board on everything from right wing judges to roll backs on Health insurance to helping oil companies and financial institutions to gutting workplace rules and environmental regulations. While at the same time probably not going along with his trade ideas or infrastructure. That Trump happens to be a nonstop liar is not news to anyone. This is secondary in their minds. Trump is a useful idiot.
Maybe too much on an idiot to be useful. They can get what they want with Pence without the baggage and be able to brag they had the guts to stand up to one of their own.
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Old 17th February 2017, 10:55 AM   #2717
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Trump said it himself, "I Could Stand In the Middle Of Fifth Avenue And Shoot Somebody And I Wouldn't Lose Any Voters", and I think he's right.
I disagree. A lot of GOPers who voted against Trump in the primaries voted for him in the general election as the lesser of two evils.
But you seem to be sold on the idea that everybody who voted for Trump is a fanatic.....
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Old 17th February 2017, 11:02 AM   #2718
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
... All of this indicates to me that a sizeable chunk of people are perfectly happy with the Trump presidency despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the left, and the non-right-wing press
McConnell certainly seems to be on the Trumper team. No doubt a lot of these guys support privatizing schools and disabling the EPA.
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Old 17th February 2017, 11:04 AM   #2719
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
A Pew poll on Trump:

http://www.people-press.org/2017/02/...ply-polarized/

It's quite detailed, and it shows most voters rank Trump poorly on most issues. The only one he really does well is that he's truthful and does what he promises. That's entirely accurate, but with him that's a bad thing.

It may take a while, but barring major changes his poll numbers should dive eventually, I hope it will be in time for a 2018 election debacle.

McHrozni


You can't be serious about that highlighted part.
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Old 17th February 2017, 11:06 AM   #2720
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Much of the gnashing of teeth from non-right-wing press is overboard. Trump is bad, certainly, but there is no indication he's an evil monster who will become Emperor of USA or anything like that. He's a buffoon who disregards protocol and wants attention. More importantly, he's an impressionable buffoon you can make do what you want if you know how.

As much as he rallies against the establishment, he's doing their bidding every time it becomes relevant. That's why the establishment doesn't fight him all that much. They'll turn against him if he threatens them or if he becomes a major drag on the polls, which I hope will happen before the end of the year.

McHrozni
Wishful thinking that ignores the other problem, he's corrupt and can't do the job. The latest, he suggested people wanted him to blow up the Russian ship cruising our coastline but he would refrain.
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