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Old 15th February 2017, 06:59 PM   #1
Meadmaker
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The Firing of General Flynn

(Apologies if there is a thread on this. I saw numerous mentions in several threads, but not a thread specifically on this subject. If I am mistaken, please close the thread and direct me to the appropriate place.)

A month into office, and Donald Trump is in the middle of his first political crisis. Honeymoons ain't what they used to be.

I'll be honest about something right up front. I don't even actually know what Flynn did. I know it involved a phone call to the Russian ambassador. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me, given the circumstances. Also, he apparently wasn't exactly forthcoming about it. However is there anything actually wrong with calling the Russian ambassador? My guess is if I were to call him up myself, he wouldn't take my call. A lot of people say it wasn't illegal.

My other guess is that, regardless of whether or not it is legal, it's the kind of thing that some of his supporters are just really bent out of shape about. A bunch of people chanting "Drain the swamp!" and "Lock her up!" probably weren't picturing The Donald's cronies making clandestine phone calls to Russian ambassador's before they even took office. I just don't see that being something they wanted up near Eau Claire, Wisconsin.

So, since I really don't know enough to say whether Flynn truly did anything wrong, as opposed to merely unseemly, I won't comment on that. However, I will comment on Trump's reaction, specifically what he said at the press conference today. Trump talked about how unfairly General Flynn was treated.

Uh.....Donald? You are the one who fired him. The press didn't fire him. The leakers didn't fire him. You, Mr. President, fired him. If anyone treated Flynn unfairly, it was the President himself. I only see two possible explanations for why Flynn was fired. Either he did something wrong, and deserved to be fired, or Donald Trump is an untrustworthy person who threw his friend under the bus when he became a political liability. Have I missed something? Is there some other alternative?


The President was also mightily upset about the leaks of classified information. Assuming they happened, I guess that's something to be upset about. He'll have to be on guard against leaks. Maybe he should even appoint staff whose job is specifically to find and catch people who leak things. Maybe he could even give them a catchy name to promote team morale, something like "the plumbers". I'll bet no one has ever thought of that before. What could possibly go wrong with such a plan?

Well, in all seriousness, people ought not to leak classified data, but it doesn't really matter. Legal or not, the cat's out of the bag and there's no point denying it happened, so we're back to the beginning. Either Flynn did something he shouldn't have done, in which case why the praise? Or Trump stabbed Flynn in the back for political expedience.

Only 204 more weeks to go.
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Old 15th February 2017, 07:07 PM   #2
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Flynn's sin was not the phone conversations he had with people when he should not have been. Nor was it lying about this to the Veep and security forces. His sin was getting caught publicly. In Donny's world, you are a total loser of you get caught cheating at anything and fail to bluff your way out. It is especially worse if you get caught cheating Donny or one of his consigliere like Pence. He was lucky Donny didn't have him sleeping with the fishes by mid-afternoon.
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Old 15th February 2017, 07:09 PM   #3
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On the subject of the links, Trump complained that it was fake news AND complained it was leaking sensitive information. It was either one or the other but cannot be both.

Similarly, Flynn's behaviour was sack-worthy or it was not. He can't blame the media for Flynn's behaviour and at the same time think his behaviour was worth the firing. If Flynn was genuinely offering to resign then Trump could have stood by him by not accepting the resignation.

It all seems to be a piece with Trump's relationship with the truth. It's not that Trump thinks he's lying, it is that he is indifferent to it. He is a bull *******.
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 10


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Old 15th February 2017, 07:13 PM   #4
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It makes more sense if you take the view, as many are doing nowadays, that Donny is mentally ill and thinks only of himself and his own personal benefit. So it doesn't matter if Flynn is innocent or guilty, nor a friend or opponent of Donny. If Flynn became a liability to Donny's personal ambitions, he had to go.
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Old 15th February 2017, 07:42 PM   #5
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My take is that elements of the "deep state" inside the intelligence community disliked and mistrusted Flynn (perhaps with good reason, perhaps not), and made a concerted effort to sabotage him via leaks to the press. It probably also was the shot across Trump's bow, which was hinted at by Sen. Charles Schumer more than a month ago:

https://youtu.be/c3p2zKPQSgI?t=8m

I doubt that Flynn did anything wrong, either legally or ethically with respect to his call to the Russian ambassador. Allegedly, hinting that the incoming Trump administration would weaken the sanctions Obama imposed was a no-no because it violated something called the Logan Act. First of all, nobody has ever been prosecuted under the Logan Act, probably because it's unconstitutionally vague and violative of the First Amendment. Second, it's a mind-boggling stretch to claim that a high level appointee of the administration which was scheduled to take power in less than 3.5 weeks was undermining the effectiveness of sanctions undertaken by the lame duck administration. The Russians weren't going to all of a sudden change their behavior because of some lame sanctions that would last a few weeks. They knew that a new administration was taking over, and they knew already that that new administration was likely to be more tolerant of the hacking done during the campaign. A child could understand that.

Obama himself did orders of magnitude worse in the summer of 2008 when he promised Iran that he would be less confrontational if he were elected. This led directly to Iran scuttling negotiations with the Bush administration over uranium enrichment.

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Old 15th February 2017, 08:00 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post

Obama himself did orders of magnitude worse in the summer of 2008 when he promised Iran that he would be less confrontational if he were elected. This led directly to Iran scuttling negotiations with the Bush administration over uranium enrichment.
There is a lot more heat around Flynn actually discussing sanctions than the 2008 incident with malley. For one, Flynn changed his story and malley denied it. Flynn served up the classic "what did they know and when did they know it." Malley's case stays in first gear because they kept their story straight.
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Old 15th February 2017, 08:22 PM   #7
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Did someone claim that Malley talked to Iran? Because all I see is the right-wing loon-o-sphere rehashing Michael Ledeen's 2014 claims that William Miller told him that he talked with Iran on behalf of Obama in 2008 (the only source for which is, of course, Ledeen's claim). The only mention of Malley in these rehashed articles is to hyperventilate about how Malley talked to Hamas in 2008 as part of his job as Middle East program director at the International Crisis Group.

It's all over places like Breitbart and PowerLine the last day or so, all of which link back to Ledeen's original unsupported Pajamas Media column from 2014. Undoubtedly that's where sunmaster14 got this latest talking point from.

Ledeen, of course, was one of the figures who actually DID have illicit dealings with Iran during Iran-Contra, and later helped push the Iraq Yellowcake hoax. Oh, and he also believes the governments of France and Germany struck a deal with "radical Islam" to help terrorists attack the US.

EDIT: Oh, and in what I'm sure is just sheer coincidence, Ledeen also co-wrote a book last year with a certain General Flynn...
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Old 15th February 2017, 08:43 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'll be honest about something right up front. I don't even actually know what Flynn did. I know it involved a phone call to the Russian ambassador. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me, given the circumstances. Also, he apparently wasn't exactly forthcoming about it. However is there anything actually wrong with calling the Russian ambassador? My guess is if I were to call him up myself, he wouldn't take my call. A lot of people say it wasn't illegal.
The bottom line is The Logan Act. It specifically prohibits private citizens from engaging in unauthorized negotiations with foreign governments with which the United States is in conflict. This would include something as simple as a President-elect (or an aide of same) telling a foreign government how their policies will differ from those of the current President. It serves to undermine the existing government's foreign policy and, depending on how one chooses to view it, could more bluntly be called treason.

Most private citizens would have little to no capability to credibly negotiate on behalf of the current or future government, and so would never run afoul of this particular law. I visited the Soviet Embassy to the United States in 1988 as a high school student (with a friend who thinks that this visit cost him a security clearance in the Army), and the conversations I had there were perfectly legal; a President-elect could in theory do the same, but if s/he attempts anything resembling negotiation on behalf of the current or future government then that's illegal.
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Old 15th February 2017, 08:44 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
My take is that elements of the "deep state" inside the intelligence community disliked and mistrusted Flynn (perhaps with good reason, perhaps not), and made a concerted effort to sabotage him via leaks to the press. It probably also was the shot across Trump's bow, which was hinted at by Sen. Charles Schumer more than a month ago:

https://youtu.be/c3p2zKPQSgI?t=8m

I doubt that Flynn did anything wrong, either legally or ethically with respect to his call to the Russian ambassador. Allegedly, hinting that the incoming Trump administration would weaken the sanctions Obama imposed was a no-no because it violated something called the Logan Act. First of all, nobody has ever been prosecuted under the Logan Act, probably because it's unconstitutionally vague and violative of the First Amendment. Second, it's a mind-boggling stretch to claim that a high level appointee of the administration which was scheduled to take power in less than 3.5 weeks was undermining the effectiveness of sanctions undertaken by the lame duck administration. The Russians weren't going to all of a sudden change their behavior because of some lame sanctions that would last a few weeks. They knew that a new administration was taking over, and they knew already that that new administration was likely to be more tolerant of the hacking done during the campaign. A child could understand that.

Obama himself did orders of magnitude worse in the summer of 2008 when he promised Iran that he would be less confrontational if he were elected. This led directly to Iran scuttling negotiations with the Bush administration over uranium enrichment.
Fine. No problem. Flynn did nothing wrong. Obama......is yesterday's news so who cares?


But, why was Flynn fired? What's up with that? You can repeat the talking points you heard on the radio today. You seem to have hit all of them except the indignity at leaking information. So, why was he fired?

Oh, I guess you missed one talking point, because Rush Limbaugh asked the same question today. He was a bit miffed at The Donald for firing Flynn. Flynn did nothing wrong. Flynn was the target of unfair attacks. So, Donald Trump fired him.

How does that work? Either Flynn actually did something wrong, or Donald Trump throws his friends under the bus when they become liabilities. I don't see a third possible interpretation.
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Old 15th February 2017, 11:19 PM   #10
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I thought about starting a thread about him earlier. What he said to the Russian ambassador was just one of the eyebrow-raising things he has been involved in. Maybe it was the last straw.

He had appeared frequently on RT and was paid for a speech he gave at a "Gala event" for RT. (In case anyone isn't aware, RT, formerly Russia Today is owned by the Russian government). He also had a "consulting firm" that did business with foreign governments although he never registered as a foreign agent.

Quote:
Consulting firm
Main article: Flynn Intel Group

Flynn, along with son Michael G. Flynn, runs Flynn Intel Group which provides intelligence services for business and governments.[32] Several sources, including Politico, have written that Flynn's consulting company is allegedly lobbying for Turkey. A company tied to Erdogan's government, which supports Muslim Brotherhood, is known to have hired Flynn's lobbying firm.[33][34][35][36][37][38] On election day 2016, Flynn wrote an op-ed calling for U.S. backing for Erdogan's government and criticized the regime's opponent, Fethullah Gulen; Flynn did not disclose that Flynn's consulting firm had received funds from a company with ties to Erdogan's government.[39] In July 2016, Flynn said that the coup attempt against Erdogan was something “worth clapping for”, but two months later, when a company tied to Erdogan's government hired Flynn's firm, Flynn hailed Erdogan as a critical U.S. ally.[40]

Flynn sat in on classified national security briefings with then-candidate Trump at the same time that Flynn was working for foreign clients, which raises ethical concerns and conflicts of interest.[41]
Attendance of RT Gala Dinner

In 2015, Flynn attended a gala dinner in Moscow in honor of RT, a Russian government-owned English-language media outlet on which he made semi-regular appearances as an analyst after he retired from U.S. government service. Before the gala, Flynn gave a paid talk on world affairs.[8][9] Flynn defended the Russian payment in an interview with Michael Isikoff.[9] Journalist Michael Crowley of Politico reported that "at a moment of semi-hostility between the U.S. and Russia, the presence of such an important figure at Putin's table startled" U.S. officials, in reference to president Vladimir Putin's attendance of the dinner as the guest of honor.[8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_T._Flynn

About that Op-Ed:
https://www.aei.org/publication/team...thics-scandal/

Quote:
I wrote on Thursday about Gen. Michael Flynn’s sudden about-face on Turkey, both with regard to his assessment of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s helpfulness in the war against terror and with regard to exiled Islamic theologian Fethullah Gülen, a one-time ally of Erdogan whose exile and perhaps execution the Turkish president now demands. What raised so many eyebrows was how sharply the op-ed diverged from his previous positions and how it appeared to be in complete conformity with the Turkish government’s positions.

Now, it appears there is more to the story. From the Daily Caller:

Quote:
An intelligence consulting firm founded by retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn, Donald Trump’s top military adviser, was recently hired as a lobbyist by an obscure Dutch company with ties to Turkey’s government and its president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan… The piece does not include a disclosure that Flynn Intel Group, the consulting firm that Flynn founded in Oct. 2014, just after leaving DIA, was recently hired to lobby Congress by a Dutch company called Inovo BV that was founded by a Turkish businessman who holds a top position on Turkey’s Foreign Economic Relations Board. A review of Dutch records shows that the company was founded by Ekim Alptekin, an ally of Erdogan’s who is director of the Turkey-U.S. Business Council, a non-profit arm of Turkey’s Foreign Economic Relations Board. Members of the Foreign Economic Relations Board are chosen by Turkey’s general assembly and its minister of economy. In the role, Alptekin helped coordinate Erdogan’s visit to the U.S. earlier this year.
Reminder, this was one of the points in "Draining the Swamp":

Quote:
Third: I am going to expand the definition of lobbyist so we close all the loopholes that former government officials use by labeling themselves consultants and advisors when we all know they are lobbyists.
Here is that Op-Ed, by the way:
Our ally Turkey is in crisis and needs our support

And earlier comments about the Op-Ed.
https://www.aei.org/publication/is-t...tons-mistakes/

Seems that in that Op-Ed, he was saying exactly what the Turkish government wanted him to say, and it has since been revealed that he was being paid by a foreign firm with connections to Erdogan.

If anything, it seems like a more serious scandal to me than what he said to the Russian Ambassador. The reason I think that it did not get more attention is just that, for one thing it was published on election day, when everyone was paying attention to the election itself. And then just so many other things. It's hard to keep track of it all.
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Old 15th February 2017, 11:24 PM   #11
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The biggest issue I would have to say is that he lied about it to Pence and likely Donald too. Pence was going on CBS to specifically speak on the matter and asked Flynn if it was true, Flynn said it wasn't resulting in Pence denying it had happened, only to have evidence surface in the media proving it did. That wasn't a good look for Pence and the worse crime you can commit as a Public Servant is embarrassing your VP or Pres with an attempted cover up.
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Old 15th February 2017, 11:34 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The biggest issue I would have to say is that he lied about it to Pence and likely Donald too. Pence was going on CBS to specifically speak on the matter and asked Flynn if it was true, Flynn said it wasn't resulting in Pence denying it had happened, only to have evidence surface in the media proving it did. That wasn't a good look for Pence and the worse crime you can commit as a Public Servant is embarrassing your VP or Pres with an attempted cover up.
I'm not too sure he lied about it to Donald. As one academic noted, Flynn has no actual expertise in that particular area and the thought that he went out on his own to contact them and destroy his own career in doing so, is a bit of a stretch. The question that Congress should be asking is "Who instructed you to contact the ambassador on this topic?" That should be accompanied by a FOIA request by Judicial Watch and the AP. Let's see the records of the conversations before and after that contact.

This is a president who thinks it's suitable to discuss nuclear strategy over the Tiramisu while a bunch of slimebucket gladhanders look on. We don't need tape of Oval Office conversations, we need tape of any meals Trump and Flynn had together in December. Donnie apparently thinks better on a full stomach; that's how he launched that successful incursion in Yemen and how he worked out bilateral policy on North Korea with the Japanese PM.

Anyone else not surprised that he's addressing Netanyahu as "Bibi"?
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Old 15th February 2017, 11:42 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
On the subject of the links...
On the subject of links, Barack Obama (D-Kenya) didn't play golf until about 5 months into his presidency. It took Trump two(?) weeks, and this comes after he criticized the previous president's golfing for years. Then again, he just tweeted/quoted that the FBI should not interfere in politics. He's, like, the BEST hypocrite.
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Old 15th February 2017, 11:52 PM   #14
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It would be good if we could stick to what Meadmaker asks in the opening post. Why was Flynn "let go" to use the business parlance if as Trump claims he did nothing wrong and was doing a not good but great job?
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Old 16th February 2017, 12:02 AM   #15
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I tend to think this is all basically run of the mill stuff painted as apocalyptic because of the left's total meltdown and unwillingness to self-reflect. Made a bit worse by the Trump admin being legitimately amateurish and Trump himself being a very odd mix of smart and stupid.

As in favor of him as I am, there's no denying that the man is ultra buffoonish in many respects.
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Old 16th February 2017, 12:39 AM   #16
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Thanks Puppycow,

yes, Flynn had way more going than just talking to the Russian Ambassador 5 times. I'm sure US Intelligence is aware of most, but is happy to have wiretape proof of a clear transgression that doesn't require them to expose their sources, even if it is minor in comparison.
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Old 16th February 2017, 12:54 AM   #17
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Trump takes another win.For the small sacrifice of Flynn, He got the #deepstate to out itself. It's no longer a Conspiracy theory.
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Old 16th February 2017, 03:13 AM   #18
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I think it's a pity that Flynn was fired even though he seems to be a dour Irishman. He seems to have right judgment on friendly relations with Russia, and not interfering with international trade, thus preventing world war three, and he doesn't support Al Qaeda in Syria like the Cocaine Importation Agency and Jewish journalists in the mainstream media. I fully appreciate that Assad doesn't like opposition, like Isis. I don't want to march on Moscow. Jaw Jaw is better than war war as Churchill once said.

These Russia skeptics and Russia hawks, like McCain and Graham, have caused chaos in the Middle east and Libya and Ukraine, and they now want to attack Iran. At the same time they want to cut taxes for tycoons and big business, when financial weakness is plainly visible for local authorities and education and healthcare. That's not being equitably administered.

Donald Trump is right to take a firm line with these intelligence agencies. They violate the rule of law and they know nothing about international legality. The CIA is deciding the policy, which is the wrong policy and using 'information is power' by bugging and phone tapping to crush opposition and criticism, and to cover-up pedophile activities in high places.
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Old 16th February 2017, 03:40 AM   #19
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Quote:
These Russia skeptics and Russia hawks, like McCain and Graham, have caused chaos in the Middle east and Libya and Ukraine
Sorry to ask, but how did McCain start the chaos in the middle east, Libya and Ukraine?
Quote:
and they now want to attack Iran.
That would be trump that's put Iran on notice, have you taken any notice of what he has said or just get your news from breitbart?
Quote:
and to cover-up pedophile activities in high places.
awww you're just an alex jones fan, bless.
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Old 16th February 2017, 03:53 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Thanks Puppycow,

yes, Flynn had way more going than just talking to the Russian Ambassador 5 times. I'm sure US Intelligence is aware of most, but is happy to have wiretape proof of a clear transgression that doesn't require them to expose their sources, even if it is minor in comparison.
So, you support illegal wiretapping?

The first issue is that someone illegally wiretapped Flynn's phone calls. That is issue # 1. That is blatantly illegal activity.

The second issue is what did Flynn discuss with the Russian Ambassador? If he did something illegal that needs to be investigated and disclosed.

It doesn't matter what your political orientation is, it's a matter of law.

Flynn is not an idiot, so you don't need to speculate with wild abandon what the subject of his calls were. It may be a futile effort, but it would sure be nice to have a friendlier relationship with Russia. That may not be possible. I don't know and neither do you.

Priorities need to be in order, so as to get to the bottom of this whole affair. Otherwise you're pulling the same **** that you accuse the Republicans of in going after Clinton regarding Benghazi. At least there was evidence of blatant lying in that. There is no evidence that anything discussed was illegal in this one. Just BS speculation by sore losers...
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Old 16th February 2017, 04:01 AM   #21
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Tapping a line to the Russian Embassy is not unusual. And we don't know if the FBI and others under Obama obtained a FISA warrant to listen in on Flynn or not. But the DoJ and others have presented the evidence to Obama, Trump and other Republicans, and until now have not questioned the legality.
How come you know more than they?
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Old 16th February 2017, 04:24 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Fine. No problem. Flynn did nothing wrong. Obama......is yesterday's news so who cares?


But, why was Flynn fired? What's up with that? You can repeat the talking points you heard on the radio today. You seem to have hit all of them except the indignity at leaking information. So, why was he fired?
In principle the phone calls were ok, it was the cover up of them that and lying to his bosses that was the issue.

Of course no one actually cared about his support for Pizzagate that got his son fired from this administration.
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Old 16th February 2017, 04:24 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Tapping a line to the Russian Embassy is not unusual. And we don't know if the FBI and others under Obama obtained a FISA warrant to listen in on Flynn or not. But the DoJ and others have presented the evidence to Obama, Trump and other Republicans, and until now have not questioned the legality.
How come you know more than they?
It doesn't matter. They are supposed to mask the American's identity and they didn't. That's illegal. Who hasn't questioned the legality? It certainly is being questioned. The whole affair is a leak of enormous proportions. What occurs if the discussions involved violations is as of yet unknown, but that hasn't stopped the mass media and amateur pundants here from going ape **** about it...

The FBI has interviewed Flynn and no charges are being filed. I guess they know more than you do that this point.
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Old 16th February 2017, 04:34 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I think it's a pity that Flynn was fired even though he seems to be a dour Irishman. He seems to have right judgment on friendly relations with Russia, and not interfering with international trade, thus preventing world war three, and he doesn't support Al Qaeda in Syria like the Cocaine Importation Agency and Jewish journalists in the mainstream media. I fully appreciate that Assad doesn't like opposition, like Isis. I don't want to march on Moscow. Jaw Jaw is better than war war as Churchill once said.

These Russia skeptics and Russia hawks, like McCain and Graham, have caused chaos in the Middle east and Libya and Ukraine, and they now want to attack Iran. At the same time they want to cut taxes for tycoons and big business, when financial weakness is plainly visible for local authorities and education and healthcare. That's not being equitably administered.

Donald Trump is right to take a firm line with these intelligence agencies. They violate the rule of law and they know nothing about international legality. The CIA is deciding the policy, which is the wrong policy and using 'information is power' by bugging and phone tapping to crush opposition and criticism, and to cover-up pedophile activities in high places.
"He seems to have (the) right judgment on friendly relations with Russia, and not interfering with international trade, thus preventing world war three" Simple as that eh.

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Old 16th February 2017, 04:35 AM   #25
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No one has ever been successfully prosecuted under the Logan act - the FBI knows that unless it has an airtight case there is little point in going toe-to-toe on this with the White House.
Just like they didn't suggest prosecuting Clinton, but that hasn't stopped the mass media and amateur pundants here and the entire Trump posse from going ape **** about it...
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Old 16th February 2017, 04:35 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
So, you support illegal wiretapping?

The first issue is that someone illegally wiretapped Flynn's phone calls. That is issue # 1. That is blatantly illegal activity.
Except that it didn't happen. They had a perfectly legal wiretap of the Russian ambassador, and they heard Michael Flynn talking on it.


Quote:
Just BS speculation by sore losers...
...and the President of the United States.

Donald Trump fired the guy. The media didn't fire him. The Democrats didn't fire him. The intelligence agencies didn't fire him. Donald Trump fired him.
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Old 16th February 2017, 04:45 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Except that it didn't happen. They had a perfectly legal wiretap of the Russian ambassador, and they heard Michael Flynn talking on it.
I'm fully aware of that. What was illegal is that they identified Flynn. That's the illegal part, as if you didn't already know... Perhaps I identified it as an illegal wiretap, but it wasn't, so that part can stand corrected.

As the previous head of DIA, I suspect he knew that the call was monitored.



...and the President of the United States.

Donald Trump fired the guy. The media didn't fire him. The Democrats didn't fire him. The intelligence agencies didn't fire him. Donald Trump fired him.[/quote]

He has the right to fire anyone with whom he or members of his team lose confidence in. Why all of the BS speculation?
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Old 16th February 2017, 05:00 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
I'm fully aware of that. What was illegal is that they identified Flynn. That's the illegal part, as if you didn't already know... Perhaps I identified it as an illegal wiretap, but it wasn't, so that part can stand corrected.
Right. So the illegal part was leaking the fact that Flynn was heard, and identified, and it was leaked to the press. I agree that those laws are important, and I think it quite appropriate to investigate and, if laws were broken, to prosecute the offenders, if they can be identified. No problem there.

Quote:
He has the right to fire anyone with whom he or members of his team lose confidence in. Why all of the BS speculation?
No one doubts his right to fire the guy. He has lots of power to do what he wants. That's what scares some of us, but that's not the issue.

The reason for the "BS speculation", is that Donald Trump publicly praises the man, but fires him. He says Flynn is treated unfairly, but by whom? Donald Trump was the person who fired Flynn. Donald Trump was the only person who actually did anything to Flynn. Sure, reporters and columnists said whatever it was that they said. Sure, some leaker leaked something. However, it was Donald Trump who said, "You're fired."

Well he has that right, but to fire him, and then turn around and say that other people treated him unfairly is just bizarre.
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Old 16th February 2017, 05:13 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
It doesn't matter. They are supposed to mask the American's identity and they didn't. That's illegal. Who hasn't questioned the legality? It certainly is being questioned. The whole affair is a leak of enormous proportions. What occurs if the discussions involved violations is as of yet unknown, but that hasn't stopped the mass media and amateur pundants here from going ape **** about it...

The FBI has interviewed Flynn and no charges are being filed. I guess they know more than you do that this point.
You're blowing smoke. The US Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court has issued tens of thousands of wiretap warrants, turning down only a handful. Since they're highly secretive all we know are the numbers - they won't say how many of those were for individuals and how many for embassies/agents.

Further, the guy was an employee of the Chief Executive.... who fired him. Either Flynn or his boss (this latter being rather unlikely) are the ones who haven't questioned the legality. Besides, it's probably treason in some sub-section of some law for a private citizen (which he was at the time) to contact a foreign government and offer them "considerations" as we like to double-speak in international trade.
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Old 16th February 2017, 05:16 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Right. So the illegal part was leaking the fact that Flynn was heard, and identified, and it was leaked to the press. I agree that those laws are important, and I think it quite appropriate to investigate and, if laws were broken, to prosecute the offenders, if they can be identified. No problem there.
Yes that is the job of the Russians to hack our government, just ask candidate trump.
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Old 16th February 2017, 05:16 AM   #31
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Oh yes, the issue is naturally that Flynn was overheard conducting unlawful diplomacy and not the fact that he was conducting unlawful diplomacy.

The hypocrisy of Trumpkins never cease to astound me. How do you guys even sleep at night?
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Old 16th February 2017, 05:24 AM   #32
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Plugging leaks is not impossible: Obama was very successful in that regard.

Trump has spend all his life shooting the messenger, which is the reason why he inspires zero loyalty in White House staffers or members of other agencies. It is also method for him to make his staff compete for his attention.

People don't leak for the fun of it: they have an agenda that gets served by telling reporters. And it is clear that the Flynn leak did help Pence.
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Old 16th February 2017, 05:32 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
You're blowing smoke. The US Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court has issued tens of thousands of wiretap warrants, turning down only a handful. Since they're highly secretive all we know are the numbers - they won't say how many of those were for individuals and how many for embassies/agents.

Further, the guy was an employee of the Chief Executive.... who fired him. Either Flynn or his boss (this latter being rather unlikely) are the ones who haven't questioned the legality. Besides, it's probably treason in some sub-section of some law for a private citizen (which he was at the time) to contact a foreign government and offer them "considerations" as we like to double-speak in international trade.
As usual your talking double speak to hide the fact that you don't know any more than anyone else. When you have something important to contribute make sure you wake me up.
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Old 16th February 2017, 06:18 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
As usual your talking double speak to hide the fact that you don't know any more than anyone else. When you have something important to contribute make sure you wake me up.
It's apparent who's blowing smoke. You made up some rules that you have no idea whether or not are applied. You didn't even know of the existence of the USFISC, did you? You're applying courtroom logic via Law & Order. The USCFISC is a whole separate animal - they even have their own appeals court.

As usual,.... you made the claim. You prove it. Where in US Law does it say that a foreign embassy or consulate gets the same protections as a US citizen, which is what you're assuming. Flynn's rights may have been violated. That would depend, though. Was he briefed in the typical fashion, "Note that all phone calls and emails may be monitored." There goes your "one party aware" rule - which may not apply, anyway.
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Old 16th February 2017, 06:19 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
These Russia skeptics and Russia hawks, like McCain and Graham, have caused chaos in the Middle east and Libya and Ukraine, and they now want to attack Iran.
If there is someone who wants to attack Iran it's Flynn and nobody else...
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Old 16th February 2017, 07:37 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
So, you support illegal wiretapping?

The first issue is that someone illegally wiretapped Flynn's phone calls. That is issue # 1. That is blatantly illegal activity.

The second issue is what did Flynn discuss with the Russian Ambassador? If he did something illegal that needs to be investigated and disclosed.

It doesn't matter what your political orientation is, it's a matter of law.

Flynn is not an idiot, so you don't need to speculate with wild abandon what the subject of his calls were. It may be a futile effort, but it would sure be nice to have a friendlier relationship with Russia. That may not be possible. I don't know and neither do you.

Priorities need to be in order, so as to get to the bottom of this whole affair. Otherwise you're pulling the same **** that you accuse the Republicans of in going after Clinton regarding Benghazi. At least there was evidence of blatant lying in that. There is no evidence that anything discussed was illegal in this one. Just BS speculation by sore losers...
I think they were tapping the Russian phones. Flynn called them. Which is really stupid when you think about it.
A General doesn't know that the USA taps Russian Diplomats phones.
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Old 16th February 2017, 07:43 AM   #37
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Didn't he resign?
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Old 16th February 2017, 07:50 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I doubt that Flynn did anything wrong, either legally or ethically with respect to his call to the Russian ambassador.
What do you call lying to your boss and lying to the american people?
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Old 16th February 2017, 07:50 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Didn't he resign?
He was asked to do so.
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Old 16th February 2017, 08:07 AM   #40
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I've missed seeing an answer to this question:

How did Justice known the content of Flynn's telephone conversations with the Russian Ambassador? Did it come from the FBI? Do we have active, legal investigations of sitting Cabinet members?
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