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2nd August 2017, 09:21 AM | #201 |
Penultimate Amazing
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You're not required to.
EDIT: Ninja'ed by everyone. ETA2: I'm not sure you should be required to. It's simply the law in some states under certain conditions, duly passed and so on. Why should I not smoke marijuana? Because it's not legal where I live. (In my case some other good reasons). I am WAY behind on this thread. It moved fast. I'll stop posting now. |
2nd August 2017, 09:30 AM | #202 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 09:31 AM | #203 |
Fiend God
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This is the third time I ask you to give me your criteria for making this determination. You've said that the person's identification is not the only criterion, but you have avoided giving me a full list of them. Are you going to do this now?
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2nd August 2017, 09:32 AM | #204 |
Fiend God
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2nd August 2017, 09:35 AM | #205 |
... and your little dog too.
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2nd August 2017, 09:39 AM | #206 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sure why not?
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 09:40 AM | #207 |
Fiend God
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Then why word it that way, "intentional OR repeated"?
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2nd August 2017, 09:41 AM | #208 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 09:42 AM | #209 |
Fiend God
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What are you on about? Why would you stop thinking of these women as women?
Are you contending that the presence of genitals at moment X is what determines whether someone's a man or a woman? Again, I've addressed it earlier today but "oddly" it went ignored: someone who loses an arm doesn't cease being human just because humans have two arms. |
2nd August 2017, 09:44 AM | #210 |
Master Poster
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We aren't talking about 99.7% of the population, are we? Does your general rule apply to 99.7% of the trans population? That you can tell the males from the females on sight?
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2nd August 2017, 09:47 AM | #211 |
Fiend God
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If anyone had any doubts as to your rank dishonesty, I can't think of a better proof than the above.
How you can respond to a reasoned post, where I make very clear that the disorder is nothing to be ashamed of and that those with it need our support, and pretend that I said the exact opposite is some of the most hateful things I've seen someone write on this forum. That you would expend so much energy to libel other posters just to pat yourself on the back for your moral superiority is nothing short of disgusting. |
2nd August 2017, 09:48 AM | #212 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 09:51 AM | #213 |
Orthogonal Vector
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They can't get pregnant. That makes them not biologically women anymore. Simple really.
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Simple and direct definition. Utterly useless socially but perfect in terms of biology, and that is what is really important right? |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 09:51 AM | #214 |
Fiend God
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I think you lost track of the conversation. Yes, we're talking about 99.7% of the population when someone tells me there's no way to know if someone's a man or a woman just by looking at them. That there is a tiny percentage of the population for which this is a problematic proposition doesn't change the fact that the claim that I can't do this is wrong.
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2nd August 2017, 09:52 AM | #215 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 09:56 AM | #216 |
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2nd August 2017, 10:12 AM | #217 |
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2nd August 2017, 10:14 AM | #218 |
Banned
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2nd August 2017, 10:16 AM | #219 |
Orthogonal Vector
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You have been clear that for this you will focus on some biological fact instead of what will actually help them. But you repeatedly ignore all the complexity of biological sex too.
How about this, what is an acceptable fine for refusing to rent apartments to transgender people? Does it change if you are renting out the top floor of your home vs being a slum lord? |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 10:18 AM | #220 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 10:21 AM | #221 |
Fiend God
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The two aren't mutually-exclusive. But of course, someone who sees everything in black-and-white terms wouldn't understand that.
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2nd August 2017, 10:26 AM | #222 |
Orthogonal Vector
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In this case you are acting in ways well documented to increase the suicide rate of people with these conditions.
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So lets make it cap out at $5. That way we can't even pretend that it will effect the rich and powerful. |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 10:30 AM | #223 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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2nd August 2017, 10:33 AM | #224 |
Fiend God
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That would only be true if you think medication and transition increase their suicide rate.
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2nd August 2017, 10:43 AM | #225 |
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Because that's how harassment is being defined in the statute. Also, you left out a key bit of context. It's an intentional or repeated refusal.
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Also, no one is telling you that you have to pretend something is true that you don't think is. All you have to do is exhibit a modicum of respect and courtesy by referring to someone as the gender to which they wish to be referred.
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2nd August 2017, 10:45 AM | #226 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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2nd August 2017, 10:48 AM | #227 |
Fiend God
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We're running in circles. The way it's written, a single intentional refusal is defined as harassment? That's crazy. It has to be repeated to make any sense.
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Or did you feel that you couldn't defend your use of those words? |
2nd August 2017, 10:56 AM | #228 |
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File a complaint with your legislator then, I guess. I didn't draft the law, so I can't help you with that. I personally don't have a problem with how it's worded, nor do I find myself at risk of running afoul of it.
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2nd August 2017, 10:58 AM | #229 |
Fiend God
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Come on now, Johnny. I don't live in NYC but I can still disagree with aspects of the law.
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2nd August 2017, 11:01 AM | #230 |
Philosopher
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2nd August 2017, 11:02 AM | #231 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 11:05 AM | #232 |
Fiend God
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2nd August 2017, 11:05 AM | #233 |
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Just for clarity, Arg, are you saying that you prefer to refer to people as the gender you think is appropriate based on how well they are passing as that gender in your judgement, and if they request something else you want to be free to ignore that?
And if so you are aware that that is the sort of thing that does actually in fact aggravate suicide rates but too bad? After all if they want your cooperation they just need to get further along in transition? The distress is worth the stand? Do you think that people in this situation need you to remind them that they don't deserve to be called sir or madam as the case may be? Do you think it will do a single ounce of good to try to reinforce what they already know practically everyone besides themselves, their doctors, and hopefully their close friends thinks about them? Do you really think they haven't already heard and considered this? Do you think they need you to correct their misconceptions? It sounds a little like you were walking it back to just saying it sounded like the bar for calling it harassment instead of honest mistakes was too low or the fines too high. Being continually intentionally referred to by the opposite of your preferred pronouns at work is definitely being harassed, it's stressful and dehumanizing and also annoying. Disagree? Too bad? |
2nd August 2017, 11:06 AM | #234 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 11:08 AM | #235 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 11:09 AM | #236 |
Fiend God
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The issue in these sorts of thread is that we're frequently presented with a conflation of two things: objective reality and etiquette. Just because I think someone isn't a man just because they think of themselves as a man doesn't mean I go around telling random people on the street their gender according to my observations.
My crucial point is that one's beliefs does not change reality, and that sex/gender are not determined by one's beliefs. It's that simple. The idea of challenging people on those beliefs was brought up by others as a distraction.
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2nd August 2017, 11:10 AM | #237 |
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2nd August 2017, 11:12 AM | #238 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 11:17 AM | #239 |
Fiend God
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HA! How amusing. I say that I support trans people in their quest to become the gender of their choice, that I oppose discrimination against them based on their condition, and then you come in and pretend like I said the exact opposite, repeatedly and even after I show to the world that you're the dishonest party in the discussion, and now _I_ have to be responsible for the "actions" you made up for me?
You are an exceptional comedian. A dishonest and despicable comedian, but an exceptional one nonetheless. I do hope that in the future you run afoul of your own ideological allies and get a taste of your own medecine, however. Ideologues have a tendency to splinter in mutually-heretical groups, despised by the others for not being "pure" enough in their beliefs, and those who are the most vicious and fanatical tend to learn that lesson before the others. |
2nd August 2017, 11:19 AM | #240 |
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