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4th August 2017, 07:22 AM | #441 |
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4th August 2017, 07:26 AM | #442 |
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4th August 2017, 07:26 AM | #443 |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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4th August 2017, 07:28 AM | #444 |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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4th August 2017, 07:48 AM | #445 |
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A legitimate fear, even though it might be a slippery slope fallacy
The thing is, transgender people exist. And as far as we know now, the only way to decrease the comparatively huge risk of depression and suicide in this group is to allow them to transition to their target gender. Will making transgender lives easier lead to advocacy for people who think they're unicorns, transracial, and robots? Yeah, probably. And when they can show that society not acknowledging their condition and not offering them rainbows and motor oil is as damaging as it is for transgenders not to be able to transition, they might have a case to make... Of course, scientific research would be needed, and I doubt science will ever find a robust biological base for 'species identity', which does at least seem to exist for gender identity (though more research may be warranted). ETA: if they do find evidence that people can legitimately identify as wolves, I probably won't like it, and I might scoff, but I'll adapt eventually. Sure, there are always extremists and nutjobs, and throngs of idiots who will say anything just to signal their virtuousness to their own ingroup. But using them as the baseline is as productive as dragging nazis and stalinists into every discussion about politics. |
4th August 2017, 08:08 AM | #446 |
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4th August 2017, 08:09 AM | #447 |
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I have and you're being inconsistent. Is it or isn't it?
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4th August 2017, 08:12 AM | #448 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I just told you.
No, I won't google it. You've been here for long enough to know how it works. Like I said, I must have missed it. Can you provide a link? Might I suggest you simply mind your business? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I asked a completely different question, one that I haven't asked before in this thread. I'll repeat it for you: Counterfactual beliefs like what? ETA: You do understand that policy isn't being created based on someone feeling like a man when born a woman, correct? |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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4th August 2017, 08:17 AM | #449 |
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You want evidence that people are embarrassed to walk around naked? Ok, clothes. That's your evidence.
But I understand that this aberration of mine is some irrational thing that I just need to get over. But a man believing he is a woman and vice versa, well that's just normal as can be and I need to get over myself and accept that otherwise I'm a bigot. Sure. |
4th August 2017, 08:17 AM | #450 |
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It is indeed very difficult to disassociate the two. A fear or concern is usually about things getting worse.
But legislation IS often made on the back of counter-factual claims. Look no further than global warming or immigration.
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4th August 2017, 08:20 AM | #451 |
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No, I don't particularly need evidence for that. Was that your only assertion? If so, why make it here? You should create a thread demanding individual locker rooms for everyone.
It's most likely quite normal, but yes, you need to get over it. Yes, you are. Science has shown that gender identity isn't necessarily the same as biological gender. If you can't accept that, you're a science denier. If you want to punish those who have gender dysphoria, you're a bigot. |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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4th August 2017, 08:20 AM | #452 |
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What is, then?
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4th August 2017, 08:22 AM | #453 |
Penultimate Amazing
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It's not irrelevant. Where? I don't see it. It's extremist to think you shouldn't mind what other peoples' bodies are like? You do understand that policy isn't being created based on someone feeling like a man when born a woman, correct? |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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4th August 2017, 08:33 AM | #454 |
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Policy is like that. We can discuss the fundamental nature of "being a man", or we can write laws about whether or not the dude who just gave birth should be eligible for the "Women, Infants, and Children" government program which, as written, only applies to women.
And which locker room to use and......every other case where law or policy distinguishes between men and women. |
4th August 2017, 08:35 AM | #455 |
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With regard to many of the anti-transgender rights people (not saying that is the case of anyone here, I'll leave that to them) you are starting from the wrong premise. Your question begins from the premise that we allow these individuals to exist openly in society. Many opponents do not want them to be permitted to exist in society. The transgender individuals are either criminal or insane and should be locked up, institutionalized, or at the very least have the crap beat out of them so they don't dare to go out in this condition but are forced to live with whatever they were born with and conform to the expectations of the rest (majority) of society.
I'd like to think the people who think thus are on the wrong side of history, but nowadays who knows? |
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4th August 2017, 08:35 AM | #456 |
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Fair enough. My view is that unisex is the way forward. Gets rid of so many problems and will lead to people being far less self-conscious about their bodies as well. Has started popping up at various public spaces in Sweden. The only drawback is that the queues are longer
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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4th August 2017, 09:51 AM | #457 |
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Okay; I've read the whole thread, but I have questions:
Why is there a fine for calling someone the wrong gender? To me, that's essentially a fine for "saying mean things" or simply "name calling". Is there any equivalent fine levied for calling someone names in other circumstances? For instance, if someone refers to a black man as "Boy" does that person face a fine? What if someone calls a woman "sir"? There are many instances where "sir" is the proper title for a woman, even if she doesn't "like" it, or would prefer to be called something else. If Captain Jane wants to be called "Bunny" do her wishes trump established tradition? What if the person's preferred pronoun has nothing to do with their gender or sexuality? If the person says "Please call me Cochise" is that valid grounds for charging someone who refuses the same fine? If not, why not? |
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4th August 2017, 11:05 AM | #458 |
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That's rather weak. Even in this thread it was hinted that it was the determining factor, if not the only important one. Now, you tell me it's simply not irrelevant, but you're being coy about exactly how you define gender.
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"Mind your own business" isn't the same as "not minding what other people's bodies are like", and saying that I can't avoid seeing them, and that it may, hypothetically, make a lot of people uncomfortable, is not saying that I mind what their bodies look like, or that I'm not minding my own business. In short, your response has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion, but between yourself and other posters here this has become the norm: you respond to a statement by another poster by substituting something entirely made up for what they've said, and then pretend that they are both one and the same. |
4th August 2017, 11:07 AM | #459 |
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The issue that is raised is that when done in a certain way it amounts to harassment, which is true, and that it needs to be dealth with, which is also true. The potential issue is that the definition of what constitutes "harassment" or "hate speech" has, to say the least, broadened these last couple of decades, going from one extreme, where it was almost entirely ignored, to the other, where the mere feeling of being a victim is enough to prove that you are one.
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4th August 2017, 11:08 AM | #460 |
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4th August 2017, 11:23 AM | #461 |
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4th August 2017, 11:26 AM | #462 |
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4th August 2017, 11:36 AM | #463 |
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4th August 2017, 11:49 AM | #464 |
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4th August 2017, 11:50 AM | #465 |
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4th August 2017, 12:03 PM | #466 |
... and your little dog too.
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When someone makes the argument that the tolerance of transgender people will force them to learn a list of nonsense pronouns no one is asking them to learn, or that "Heaven and Earth" will need to be moved, we're past the point of reasoned discourse.
I feel no obligation to offer charity in such a situation. |
4th August 2017, 12:52 PM | #467 |
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I always laugh when your side brings up this argument. I assume you want us to acknowledge that the males who look like women probably should use the women's locker-room and the females who look like men should go to the men's locker-room. And guess what? I don't disagree with that (mostly, assuming they are post-op or keep themselves reasonably covered).
But that's not your argument. Your argument is that they should be free to go to either locker-room. |
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4th August 2017, 01:23 PM | #468 |
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I care when media makes a headline out of Man gives birth to baby. No, a man did not have a baby.
I'm perfectly happy with unisex locker rooms, my local swimming pool doesn't have separate male and female changing areas like it used to years ago, it moved on, maybe this locker room crap will move on too. |
4th August 2017, 01:34 PM | #469 |
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Oh come off it! You asked me which it was and I answered. If you don't like it, you can stuff it.
That's actually precisely what we were talking about. Lying doesn't do your argument any good. It's precisely that. If you are minding your own business, you aren't glancing at people's genitals and getting all worked up when you see bits missing. Watch so you don't hurt yourself when you get off that high horse. |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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4th August 2017, 01:36 PM | #470 |
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Wow. You really shouldn't go into mind-reading, because you failed spectacularly. My argument is that people who argue that trans gendered people should use the "right" locker room would be freaked out if that actually happened, and one of those trans men walked into a women's locker room.
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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4th August 2017, 01:37 PM | #471 |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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4th August 2017, 01:55 PM | #472 |
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4th August 2017, 01:56 PM | #473 |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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4th August 2017, 01:59 PM | #474 |
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4th August 2017, 02:03 PM | #475 |
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4th August 2017, 02:14 PM | #476 |
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The Sun is not the only one reporting that a man gave birth. There is a video where the transman says something like, "Next time someone tells you a man can't have babies, show them this video."
https://youtu.be/cZLqKM7zCls |
4th August 2017, 02:23 PM | #477 |
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4th August 2017, 02:27 PM | #478 |
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4th August 2017, 02:30 PM | #479 |
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4th August 2017, 02:34 PM | #480 |
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