IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags LGBT issues , transgender incidents , transgender issues

Reply
Old 4th August 2017, 02:37 PM   #481
mike81
Muse
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 730
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Actually, you said The Sun was not the only one reporting it, and then you provided a link to the Toronto Star not reporting it.
You are right, the Toronto Star did not report it that way. The transman himself did. Many others are also reporting a man gave birth.

Last edited by mike81; 4th August 2017 at 02:39 PM.
mike81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 03:14 PM   #482
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
So then you agree that the headline "Man gives birth to baby" is inaccurate because it's describing a medical miracle? "Transman gives birth to baby," is pretty ordinary even if it's a bit shocking to some sensibilities.
It's pure click-bait.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 03:19 PM   #483
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
You are right, the Toronto Star did not report it that way. The transman himself did. Many others are also reporting a man gave birth.
Why is it important what this guy said? I would interpret him saying it as more than a little tounge in cheek. You most likely wouldn't. So why is it important?
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 03:37 PM   #484
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,361
Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
You are right, the Toronto Star did not report it that way. The transman himself did.
Your rather liberal definition of "report" notwithstanding, but...

Quote:
Many others are also reporting a man gave birth.
...Who?
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 03:37 PM   #485
p0lka
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: near trees, houses and a lake.
Posts: 3,229
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yes, he did.
No, a man did not have a baby. A woman that is taking hormone treatments so that they can become like a man had a baby, they had a womb and an uterus and all the female components that are involved in having a baby.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
He's not a biological man, but he's a man
That statement doesn't even make any sense.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 03:47 PM   #486
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,030
Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
So what? You seemed to be saying that The Sun was the only one saying a man gave birth. I pointed out that is not true. The transman himself said it.
The bait-and-switch is not in ever saying "man gives birth", it's in working very hard to create the impression that a male pregnancy has occurred and withholding important details until you click through.

Trystan Reese, apart from not being part of "the media" in the ordinary sense, cannot be accused of withholding the fact that he's transgendered. It's all over his web site, which is presumably where the video came from.
mumblethrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 04:02 PM   #487
p0lka
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: near trees, houses and a lake.
Posts: 3,229
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Tabloid journalism must be new to you.

ETA: Actually, reading through the last few posts, it must be new to a lot of people.
Na I'm well aware of how tabloids work that's why I don't read them, my concern is that there are so many people out there that aren't.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 04:08 PM   #488
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,361
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Na I'm well aware of how tabloids work that's why I don't read them, my concern is that there are so many people out there that aren't.
And after decades of rampant tabloid journalism, this particular story is where you decided to take a stand?
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 04:11 PM   #489
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You asked me which it was and I answered.
And you answer only one question per thread, is that it?

Quote:
If you don't like it, you can stuff it.
Amusing.

Quote:
That's actually precisely what we were talking about. Lying doesn't do your argument any good.
Let's see who's lying, shall we?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I'm not a computer. I can't censor the bit I don't want to see.
Might I suggest you simply mind your business?
They're nude, right in my immediate surrounding. At some point you're going to see some bits. Apparently my eyes merely being hit by photons reflected by their bodies now means I'm intruding on their privacy! That's the extremist ideology I keep talking about from the left.
It's extremist to think you shouldn't mind what other peoples' bodies are like?
As everybody can clearly see, we weren't discussing not minding our own business or minding how other people's bodies look, but how uncomfortable being nude in the same environment as people of the opposite sex can be. I find it very disappointing that you're not only lying, but accusing me of lying to cover yourself. That's a new low for you.

Quote:
It's precisely that. If you are minding your own business, you aren't glancing at people's genitals and getting all worked up when you see bits missing.
Who said anything about glancing? You're just as bad and dishonest as ponderingturtle, or just as incapable of distinguishing two different things. You're making up stuff no one else has said and then acting as if this is exactly what they said even after they point out and show you that this isn't the case.

Quote:
Watch so you don't hurt yourself when you get off that high horse.
Ironic coming from someone who's telling me how horrible I am towards my fellow humans.

Your entire argument is based on ideology, such that you can't even formulate a response that isn't either a lie, a misrepresentation, or projection.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 04:14 PM   #490
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
The Sun is not the only one reporting that a man gave birth. There is a video where the transman says something like, "Next time someone tells you a man can't have babies, show them this video."

https://youtu.be/cZLqKM7zCls
Ha. Didn't take long to find the example that Uke wanted. Too bad he'll never admit it.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 04:16 PM   #491
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
That statement doesn't even make any sense.
It makes quite a bit of sense, but only in light of an ideology that has increasingly worked towards the idea that your feelings are not only the most important thing in the world, but in fact that they trump all objective measures.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 06:08 PM   #492
HarryHenderson
Graduate Poster
 
HarryHenderson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: All up in your business!
Posts: 1,877
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
...But that's not your argument. Your argument is that they should be free to go to either locker-room.
Because mental illness should be allowed to do anything it wants. Who are you to try to prohibit a 300 pound "man who thinks he's a woman with a penis" from wearing just one piece of a DKNY™ bikini while demanding urinals with mango flavored urinal cakes in all women's restrooms?! Why would you try to stop that? Why? You must hate mental illness trannies America!!!
HarryHenderson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 06:14 PM   #493
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
No, a man did not have a baby. A woman that is taking hormone treatments so that they can become like a man had a baby, they had a womb and an uterus and all the female components that are involved in having a baby.
A trans-man.

Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
That statement doesn't even make any sense.
That's really your problem.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 06:18 PM   #494
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
And you answer only one question per thread, is that it?
What?

I answered your question. Did you have another?


Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Let's see who's lying, shall we?
You were.


Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
As everybody can clearly see, we weren't discussing not minding our own business or minding how other people's bodies look, but how uncomfortable being nude in the same environment as people of the opposite sex can be. I find it very disappointing that you're not only lying, but accusing me of lying to cover yourself. That's a new low for you.
No, we were discussing minding your own business. The clue was in the phrase "minding your own business".


Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Who said anything about glancing? You're just as bad and dishonest as ponderingturtle,
You are the dishonest one in this exchange.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
or just as incapable of distinguishing two different things. You're making up stuff no one else has said and then acting as if this is exactly what they said even after they point out and show you that this isn't the case.
You are projecting.


Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Ironic coming from someone who's telling me how horrible I am towards my fellow humans.
I am? Where did I say that? Please provide a link. Don't run away this time.

ETA: Actually, don't bother. I'm done with your crap.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Your entire argument is based on ideology, such that you can't even formulate a response that isn't either a lie, a misrepresentation, or projection.
You know absolutely jack **** about my ideology. You think you do, so you are arguing against what you think I believe, but you never even stop to think that maybe, just maybe, you actually don't have a clue.

You are projecting so bad I feel ashamed on your behalf. Bye-bye.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

Last edited by uke2se; 4th August 2017 at 06:20 PM.
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 06:19 PM   #495
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,423
Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
Because mental illness should be allowed to do anything it wants. Who are you to try to prohibit a 300 pound "man who thinks he's a woman with a penis" from wearing just one piece of a DKNY™ bikini while demanding urinals with mango flavored urinal cakes in all women's restrooms?! Why would you try to stop that? Why? You must hate mental illness trannies America!!!
Do you think this is what we're talking about?
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 06:29 PM   #496
sylvan8798
Master Poster
 
sylvan8798's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,847
Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
Because mental illness should be allowed to do anything it wants. Who are you to try to prohibit a 300 pound "man who thinks he's a woman with a penis" from wearing just one piece of a DKNY™ bikini while demanding urinals with mango flavored urinal cakes in all women's restrooms?! Why would you try to stop that? Why? You must hate mental illness trannies America!!!
People with mental illness who are a disruption or a danger to themselves and those around them should be put in mental hospitals.
__________________
DoYouEverWonder - Engineers and architects don't have to design steel buildings not to collapse from gravity. They already conquered gravity when they built it.

- Professional Wastrel
sylvan8798 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 06:30 PM   #497
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
A trans-man.
Which is to say, a woman who is hoping that modern medicine will help her feel more like what she thinks society is telling her a man should feel; and is kindly asking us to treat her as a man to help complete the illusion.

Of course, HAVING A *********** BABY kind of shatters the illusion, so I don't see how society owes her anything, at this point.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 06:36 PM   #498
applecorped
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 20,145
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Which is to say, a woman who is hoping that modern medicine will help her feel more like what she thinks society is telling her a man should feel; and is kindly asking us to treat her as a man to help complete the illusion.

Of course, HAVING A *********** BABY kind of shatters the illusion, so I don't see how society owes her anything, at this point.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.


This
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 06:37 PM   #499
applecorped
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 20,145
Will dad be breastfeeding her baby?
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 06:49 PM   #500
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,361
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Which is to say, a woman who is hoping that modern medicine will help her feel more like what she thinks society is telling her a man should feel; and is kindly asking us to treat her as a man to help complete the illusion.

Of course, HAVING A *********** BABY kind of shatters the illusion, so I don't see how society owes her anything, at this point.
What is it that you think that he thinks society owes him? Aside from courtesy and respect, I mean.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 06:55 PM   #501
sir drinks-a-lot
Philosopher
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 5,335
Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Many others are also reporting a man gave birth.
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
...Who?
I love how your link contains links to articles reporting a man gave birth.
__________________
So, if he's doing it by divine means, I can only tell him this: 'Mr. Geller, you're doing it the hard way.' --James Randi
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 07:04 PM   #502
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
What is it that you think that he thinks society owes him? Aside from courtesy and respect, I mean.
Complicity in her medically induced and insincere cosplay, obviously. I mean, sure, call her a dude if it means dodging a workplace harassment charge. But beyond that... She had a baby. Be honest, johnny karate: what do you think is going on up in that belly of hers? Boy stuff? Or girl stuff?

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.

Last edited by theprestige; 4th August 2017 at 07:09 PM. Reason: Copay!
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 07:12 PM   #503
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,361
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Complicity in her medically induced and insincere cosplay, obviously. I mean, sure, call her a dude if it means dodging a workplace harassment charge. But beyond that... She had a baby. Be honest, johnny karate: what do you think is going on up in that belly of hers? Boy stuff? Or girl stuff?
I don't actually care what's "going on up in that belly of hers"? Why do you?

And what specific "complicity" are you referring to?
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 07:34 PM   #504
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,361
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I love how your link contains links to articles reporting a man gave birth.
From how many non-tabloid sources? One? Two?

Does that constitute "many" in your mind?
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 08:01 PM   #505
mike81
Muse
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 730
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
From how many non-tabloid sources? One? Two?

Does that constitute "many" in your mind?
Again, the transman himself said a man gave birth. Shouldn't that count above anything else? He was not saying it tongue in cheek like someone suggested. He clearly feels he is a man that gave birth and seems to want others to think the same. He said it more like, "Ha, ha to anyone that says a man can't give birth."

Last edited by mike81; 4th August 2017 at 08:07 PM.
mike81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 08:32 PM   #506
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,361
Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Again, the transman himself said a man gave birth. Shouldn't that count above anything else?
This tangent started with complaints that the media was misreporting the story. So now we're just complaining if anyone at all says something you don't agree with? Okay then.

Quote:
He was not saying it tongue in cheek like someone suggested. He clearly feels he is a man that gave birth.
And this is a problem for you because... ?

Quote:
He said it more like, "Ha, ha to anyone that says a man can't give birth."
How terrible for you.

Last edited by johnny karate; 4th August 2017 at 08:34 PM.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 10:49 PM   #507
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 20,570
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Wow. You really shouldn't go into mind-reading, because you failed spectacularly. My argument is that people who argue that trans gendered people should use the "right" locker room would be freaked out if that actually happened, and one of those trans men walked into a women's locker room.
Well, would you find anything wrong with that yourself? Trans man walks into a woman's locker room. What should happen? We know what would happen--shrieks and covering up and maybe one of the gals has been practicing boxing.

But the trans man has an explanation. Yeah, he's been a man for a couple years now, but it really isn't working out and he's thinking of transitioning back to being a woman and this is part of the process. Okay, no harm, no foul, sorry the women were upset and little Miss Right Hook is going to find out that assault and battery against a transgendered person is a hate crime.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 11:22 PM   #508
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,361
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Well, would you find anything wrong with that yourself? Trans man walks into a woman's locker room. What should happen? We know what would happen--shrieks and covering up and maybe one of the gals has been practicing boxing.

But the trans man has an explanation. Yeah, he's been a man for a couple years now, but it really isn't working out and he's thinking of transitioning back to being a woman and this is part of the process. Okay, no harm, no foul, sorry the women were upset and little Miss Right Hook is going to find out that assault and battery against a transgendered person is a hate crime.
But isn't that exactly what you're advocating for? That people use the locker room or restroom according to their biological gender?

If not, what locker room do you think the fictional person in the scenario that will probably never happen should use?
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2017, 02:02 AM   #509
sylvan8798
Master Poster
 
sylvan8798's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,847
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I always laugh when your side brings up this argument. I assume you want us to acknowledge that the males who look like women probably should use the women's locker-room and the females who look like men should go to the men's locker-room. And guess what? I don't disagree with that (mostly, assuming they are post-op or keep themselves reasonably covered).

But that's not your argument. Your argument is that they should be free to go to either locker-room.
I think you are a little confused. The argument is that transgender persons should be able to use the facility that matches the gender they are presenting as. Opponents want them to use their biologically assigned facility, regardless of how they actually appear to themselves or others. There wouldn't be a fuss about it if everyone were on the same side...
__________________
DoYouEverWonder - Engineers and architects don't have to design steel buildings not to collapse from gravity. They already conquered gravity when they built it.

- Professional Wastrel
sylvan8798 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2017, 02:44 AM   #510
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I answered your question. Did you have another?
Ah, there's that pretense of not knowing what's going on, again.

Quote:
No, we were discussing minding your own business.
I don't think you know what that means, then.

Quote:
You are the dishonest one in this exchange.
Clever riposte!

Quote:
You are projecting.
You're not even putting any thoughts in your response. Since I'm the one trying to distinguish two things, and you're treating them as one, it's idiotic to say that I'm projecting when telling you that you can't distinguish said things.

Quote:
You know absolutely jack **** about my ideology.
You're telling me quite a lot about it, actually.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2017, 02:46 AM   #511
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Will dad be breastfeeding her baby?
Correct pronouns, please.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2017, 02:48 AM   #512
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I don't actually care what's "going on up in that belly of hers"? Why do you?
Are you seriously asking someone why they care about what the real answer is?

Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
And this is a problem for you because... ?

How terrible for you.
Why are you constantly veering away from factual discussion to appeals to emotion?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2017, 07:17 AM   #513
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,361
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Are you seriously asking someone why they care about what the real answer is?
Yeah, because theprestige's interest in this is purely academic. He's looking for "real answers".

Quote:
Why are you constantly veering away from factual discussion to appeals to emotion?
After defending someone who declared they are being asked to move heaven and earth to cater to transgender people, you accuse me of appeals to emotion?
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2017, 07:52 AM   #514
Wolrab
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,838
I'm surprised it wasn't spun as a male homosexual couple have a natural childbirth of a non gender assigned child.
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov
Wolrab is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2017, 08:02 AM   #515
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Yeah, because theprestige's interest in this is purely academic. He's looking for "real answers".
Except it didn't seem to me like you were saying that you didn't believe he wanted the actual answer, but rather that the real answer didn't matter.

Quote:
After defending someone who declared they are being asked to move heaven and earth to cater to transgender people, you accuse me of appeals to emotion?
Er... yes. Is that supposed to be some sort of hypocrisy?

There's a difference between one (speaking out in frustration, which tends to bring hyperbole) and the other (changing the topic repeatedly).
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2017, 08:25 AM   #516
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 18,090
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Interesting. Asking you to discuss this topic reasonably reminds you why you don't post here often? So you don't like to discuss reasonably?
No, when people who complain about hypocrisy and childishness display such brazen and childish hypocrisy with nary a word from their cohorts, it shows the entire discussion to be bankrupt of critical exploration of a topic and more about advancing a side.

As you were never discussing this honestly, there is no reason for them to continue engaging you. I thank Cavemonster for the attempt, as well as a few others in this thread, but when people cite the dictionary and don't even see it doesn't say what they think it says, there is no room for advancement. Moreover, when people just refuse the context and continue on with their vapid strawmen without even acknowledging the bad arguments others on their 'side' are making, you're doing nothing for them and are just arguing for the lurkers.

Gender is not the same as sex, and this distinction is both useful and factual. Arguing that sex overrides all in all contexts is foolishly ignoring context and nuance. It's the same as saying light always behaves as a particle, or that tomatoes are always a fruit despite knowing that in culinary contexts they're vegetables. Keep the strawman about feelings being everything, the old people locked into their silly gender biases don't have to get it, and it seems more than a few of them are determined to willfully not.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2017, 08:31 AM   #517
Meadmaker
Guest
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 29,033
Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
I think you are a little confused. The argument is that transgender persons should be able to use the facility that matches the gender they are presenting as. Opponents want them to use their biologically assigned facility, regardless of how they actually appear to themselves or others. There wouldn't be a fuss about it if everyone were on the same side...
This isn't quite accurate. An awful lot of "opponents" would agree with the argument in your first statement above.

Let's take me, for example. I agree that transgender people should use the facility that matches the gender they are presenting as. Now, here's where I part company with many other people. As soon as they present a penis, I say they are presenting as a man. I don't care about their hair or their waistline or their makeup or even their hormonally induced breast-like tissue.

I think you would actually find that a very common opinion of "opponents" as evidenced by so many people's reaction, when someone upthread tried the familiar "I'll show you a picture of someone who looks very feminine or masculine and ask which locker room they ought to use." Everyone who answered said we couldn't know, because we can't see the things that we would see if they were using a locker room.

Indeed, I will go one step farther, and say that even if the people using the locker room can't see the penis, but they know it's there, that person is presenting, to them, as a man. This is what comes up again and again in various school locker room battles, and I'm constantly amazed that grown-ups can't figure out what the problem is. (As the senior girl said at the Palatine, Illinois school board meeting, "Can she put the towel over her eyes?")

So, in that delivery room, the person who inspired this thread was presenting as a woman.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2017, 09:27 AM   #518
sylvan8798
Master Poster
 
sylvan8798's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,847
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
This isn't quite accurate. An awful lot of "opponents" would agree with the argument in your first statement above.

Let's take me, for example. I agree that transgender people should use the facility that matches the gender they are presenting as. Now, here's where I part company with many other people. As soon as they present a penis, I say they are presenting as a man. I don't care about their hair or their waistline or their makeup or even their hormonally induced breast-like tissue.

I think you would actually find that a very common opinion of "opponents" as evidenced by so many people's reaction, when someone upthread tried the familiar "I'll show you a picture of someone who looks very feminine or masculine and ask which locker room they ought to use." Everyone who answered said we couldn't know, because we can't see the things that we would see if they were using a locker room.

Indeed, I will go one step farther, and say that even if the people using the locker room can't see the penis, but they know it's there, that person is presenting, to them, as a man. This is what comes up again and again in various school locker room battles, and I'm constantly amazed that grown-ups can't figure out what the problem is. (As the senior girl said at the Palatine, Illinois school board meeting, "Can she put the towel over her eyes?")

So, in that delivery room, the person who inspired this thread was presenting as a woman.
It seems rather disingenuous to suggest that everyone is in agreement about X when you are using different meanings for a key term. How does this resolve anything? You still have an issue with two (or more) sides at an apparent impasse.

Quote:
Indeed, I will go one step farther, and say that even if the people using the locker room can't see the penis, but they know it's there, that person is presenting, to them, as a man.
Any studies to back this up?
__________________
DoYouEverWonder - Engineers and architects don't have to design steel buildings not to collapse from gravity. They already conquered gravity when they built it.

- Professional Wastrel
sylvan8798 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2017, 11:42 AM   #519
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 20,570
Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
I think you are a little confused. The argument is that transgender persons should be able to use the facility that matches the gender they are presenting as. Opponents want them to use their biologically assigned facility, regardless of how they actually appear to themselves or others. There wouldn't be a fuss about it if everyone were on the same side...
Gosh, do I feel silly! Here I thought quite a few people were saying that a trans woman who has not had the operation should be allowed to use a women's locker room, even though "she" still has the genitals of a male. Glad to see you aren't proposing anything kooky like that.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2017, 12:11 PM   #520
Meadmaker
Guest
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 29,033
Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
It seems rather disingenuous to suggest that everyone is in agreement about X when you are using different meanings for a key term.
A key term? Like "opponent", as in "Opponents want them", or maybe "presents"? when "presents" isn't really defined? Does "presents" mean "attempts to be seen as", or does it mean "appears to be to most observers"? Or is there some other meaning?

Or are we talking about a key word like "gender", which not everyone uses the same way? Ten years ago, almost no one used it the way we are told is "correct" today, and I'll bet that 25 years ago, literally no one used it the way we are told is correct today.

And then there are the terms "man" and "woman", "boy" and "girl".

But I thought I made it clear in my post that I was describing my opinion, which I explicitly stated was held by an "awful lot of 'opponents'", as opposed to being a universally shared opinion, even among the poorly defined set of "opponents".

I must admit, I referred to "people using the locker room", which could mistakenly be read as "all people using the locker room", instead of "many people using the locker room", which was the intended meaning.

But I think the problem of painting with too broad of a brush in this case occurred primarily when you described what "opponents" wanted, and you did so inaccurately. There are some people who believe that, but it is far from a universally held opinion. My guess is that the largest faction of "opponents" believe as I do, that post op transgenders should use the facility of the adopted gender.

Quote:
Any studies to back this up?
Hmm....any studies to back up the idea that people perceive anyone with a penis to be a male? Even if they cannot see the penis at any given time?

Well....nothing comes to mind immediately, and I don't have time to do a google scholar literature search, but I do recall from college days that one of the key cognitive developmental milestones identified by Piaget was the point at which children realize that an object that is hidden does not cease to exist. i.e. When you put the cup over the ball, the ball is still there, though it is hidden. I'm sure that the same principle holds for the plural.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 5th August 2017 at 12:15 PM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:56 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.