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Tags LGBT issues , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 5th August 2017, 01:00 PM   #521
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
A key term? Like "opponent", as in "Opponents want them", or maybe "presents"? when "presents" isn't really defined? Does "presents" mean "attempts to be seen as", or does it mean "appears to be to most observers"?
Well, it certainly can't be the latter, since we've been told endlessly in this thread that you can't tell what gender someone is by looking.
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Old 5th August 2017, 01:12 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Do you think this is what we're talking about?
Really?
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Old 5th August 2017, 01:33 PM   #523
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
No, when people who complain about hypocrisy and childishness display such brazen and childish hypocrisy with nary a word from their cohorts
You're hilarious. Cohorts? You think I'm in some sort of league with other posters here? You have a twisted view of reality, boy.

Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rules 12/0
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Old 5th August 2017, 01:35 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
A key term? Like "opponent", as in "Opponents want them", or maybe "presents"? when "presents" isn't really defined? Does "presents" mean "attempts to be seen as", or does it mean "appears to be to most observers"? Or is there some other meaning?

Or are we talking about a key word like "gender", which not everyone uses the same way? Ten years ago, almost no one used it the way we are told is "correct" today, and I'll bet that 25 years ago, literally no one used it the way we are told is correct today.

And then there are the terms "man" and "woman", "boy" and "girl".
You're wasting your time. There is no discussion with ideologues.
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Old 5th August 2017, 03:09 PM   #525
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Gosh, do I feel silly! Here I thought quite a few people were saying that a trans woman who has not had the operation should be allowed to use a women's locker room, even though "she" still has the genitals of a male. Glad to see you aren't proposing anything kooky like that.
I feel even sillier, I thought it was about men having babies and whether saying man was correct or not, then it went all locker room talk.
I'l share a locker room with anyone,
if my kids saw genitalia so what?
I would suggest that we would be a healthier society if we didn't have this obsession with acting like sexual organs/the stuff we pee out of, are something to be ashamed about.
grow up society.

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Old 5th August 2017, 03:21 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I feel even sillier, I thought it was about men having babies and whether saying man was correct or not, then it went all locker room talk.
I'l share a locker room with anyone,
if my kids saw genitalia so what?
I would suggest that we would be a healthier society if we didn't have this obsession with acting like sexual organs are something to be ashamed about.
grow up society.


This is how I feel, too. I've just naturally never given a toss. I accept that everyone doesn't feel the same way about everything or have the same sensitivities as everyone else. And that's a good thing. But in general, the inability to separate genitalia just hangin' there from some sort of overt sexual context seems like a detriment to modern humans. I too wish we would all move past it. Maybe we can't though. Maybe it's inert. I don't have any of the answers.
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Old 5th August 2017, 03:26 PM   #527
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Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12/0

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Old 5th August 2017, 04:46 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I feel even sillier, I thought it was about men having babies and whether saying man was correct or not, then it went all locker room talk.
I'l share a locker room with anyone,
if my kids saw genitalia so what?
I would suggest that we would be a healthier society if we didn't have this obsession with acting like sexual organs/the stuff we pee out of, are something to be ashamed about.
grow up society.
I understand your position, but let me explain why the "locker room talk" is germane to the question of whether or not a man just had a baby.

If we treat men and women equally, if we never draw a distinction, if sex really doesn't matter in any situation*, then it really doesn't matter whether we call someone a man or a woman anyway. Ok. So Mr. Mom is really a man. So what?

As long as there is no practical difference in the way we deal with men and women, then in it really doesn't matter whether someone is a man or a woman.

However, there's the thing. We really do care whether someone is a man or a woman. We care socially, and in a few cases, we bring that care into law and policy. So the "locker room" stuff is just illustrating that, whether or not it is rational or wise to do so, most people care who sees them naked and, specifically, whether those people are men or women. It's just an illustration of one circumstance where most, but not all, people care about the difference between men and women.

*And I'm excluding individual romantic/sexual preferences. That's something where darned near everyone cares one way or another, but that's between the two, or more, people who are trying to work that out between themselves.

ETA: In other words, there is the philosophical question of what truly makes one a man or a woman, but that's not a question most people really care about. The reason it becomes a political issue, or an issue worthy of societal debate, is that certain people not traditionally viewed as women wish to be recognized as and treated like women.

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Old 5th August 2017, 04:51 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post


This is how I feel, too. I've just naturally never given a toss. I accept that everyone doesn't feel the same way about everything or have the same sensitivities as everyone else. And that's a good thing. But in general, the inability to separate genitalia just hangin' there from some sort of overt sexual context seems like a detriment to modern humans. I too wish we would all move past it. Maybe we can't though. Maybe it's inert. I don't have any of the answers.
At my age, it seems like it's growing inert, but I think the word you meant was innate.

ETA: And for what it's worth, in my youth I had the opportunity to participate in "clothing optional" situations, and I will assure you that I, and all the other young men, were quite happy to have the opportunity to view naked women. I don't know if that qualifies as "overtly sexual", but it's definitely more sexual than being around the same group of women fully clothed.

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Old 5th August 2017, 04:54 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So the "locker room" stuff is just illustrating that, whether or not it is rational or wise to do so, most people care who sees them naked and, specifically, whether those people are men or women.
Maybe they should just tell these people to mind their own business and shut up, then.
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Old 5th August 2017, 05:03 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Except it didn't seem to me like you were saying that you didn't believe he wanted the actual answer, but rather that the real answer didn't matter.
It doesn't.

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Er... yes. Is that supposed to be some sort of hypocrisy?

There's a difference between one (speaking out in frustration, which tends to bring hyperbole) and the other (changing the topic repeatedly).
Frustration over what?
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Old 5th August 2017, 05:09 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
It doesn't.
So the actual answer doesn't matter, then. All that matters is, what? The feelings of the person in question? That should determine reality?

How is that sort of thinking not applicable to everything? Who cares if the earth revolves around the sun or vice-versa? Isn't it enough that people believe the latter? Why shatter their deeply-held beliefs?

This sort of thinking is anathema to me.

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Frustration over what?
How is that relevant? You're just trying to avoid giving me the point.
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Old 5th August 2017, 06:21 PM   #533
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
So the actual answer doesn't matter, then. All that matters is, what? The feelings of the person in question? That should determine reality?

How is that sort of thinking not applicable to everything? Who cares if the earth revolves around the sun or vice-versa? Isn't it enough that people believe the latter? Why shatter their deeply-held beliefs?

This sort of thinking is anathema to me.
As you so recently asked me, is there no middle ground?

How about instead of it being all or nothing, we each decide for ourselves when and under what circumstances we challenge beliefs we don't agree with?

I don't have a problem with transgender people, so I see no point in confronting them on these issues.

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How is that relevant? You're just trying to avoid giving me the point.
Believe me, the point is exactly what I've been looking for in this thread. And I don't see much of one in what you and others have been arguing.
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Old 5th August 2017, 06:36 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
At my age, it seems like it's growing inert, but I think the word you meant was innate.

ETA: And for what it's worth, in my youth I had the opportunity to participate in "clothing optional" situations, and I will assure you that I, and all the other young men, were quite happy to have the opportunity to view naked women. I don't know if that qualifies as "overtly sexual", but it's definitely more sexual than being around the same group of women fully clothed.
Yeah, I meant innate. I don't use wrong words too often in posts, so I guess I was distracted. Sorry.

As for the rest of it, I'm really not too worried about how my views may or may not be shared by other people. I was just chiming in. In a perfect world, I actually DO think there'd be a way to admire a naked body without it becoming sexual, but I'm not convinced the world (or even I) could ever fully get there.
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Old 5th August 2017, 07:27 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You're hilarious. Cohorts? You think I'm in some sort of league with other posters here? You have a twisted view of reality, boy.

Holy ****, do I have to link to the dictionary definition of 'cohort' too? Again you distort what someone is saying.



Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12/0
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Old 5th August 2017, 09:54 PM   #536
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Well, it certainly can't be the latter, since we've been told endlessly in this thread that you can't tell what gender someone is by looking.
I don't claim to be "most observers" but I haven't been observing the public nekked since, like, ever. So I just make random guesses as to their gender. I've found that it mostly doesn't matter if I'm right or not, given that I'm no longer in search of a mate.
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Old 5th August 2017, 10:19 PM   #537
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
I don't claim to be "most observers" but I haven't been observing the public nekked since, like, ever. So I just make random guesses as to their gender. I've found that it mostly doesn't matter if I'm right or not, given that I'm no longer in search of a mate.
You make random guesses about the respective genders of naked people?
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Old 5th August 2017, 10:32 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
You make random guesses about the respective genders of naked people?
What are his options, if they haven't told him what gender they are? It would be a hate crime for him to deduce their gender based on observable physical properties. It's probably safest just to flight a coin.

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Old 5th August 2017, 11:30 PM   #539
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I like how people who have taken a stand against offering other people respect and courtesy whine about being called bigots and being accused of hate crimes.
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Old 6th August 2017, 02:25 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
As you so recently asked me, is there no middle ground?
Nothing I've said suggested this. It was a question: what constitutes the criteria? I've been asking this for a week now.

Quote:
How about instead of it being all or nothing, we each decide for ourselves when and under what circumstances we challenge beliefs we don't agree with?
That sounds like a recipe for being called bigots and harassers. This is a serious question: when is it ok to do so and when is it not? Why would challenging religion, for example, be more acceptable than challenging this belief?

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I like how people who have taken a stand against offering other people respect and courtesy whine about being called bigots and being accused of hate crimes.
And I like how many people here make the conversation about being rude and bigoted rather than about discussing a factual question. It's almost as if you're trying to shame your opponents into submission.
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Old 6th August 2017, 02:26 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Oh really? Does being told something you'd think you'd know better than anyone else upset you?
Can you really not see the difference between countering a belief with facts, and countering a fact with an accusation?

Once again I must stress how incapable of distinguishing things ideologues are.
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Old 6th August 2017, 06:10 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
I don't claim to be "most observers" but I haven't been observing the public nekked since, like, ever. So I just make random guesses as to their gender. I've found that it mostly doesn't matter if I'm right or not, given that I'm no longer in search of a mate.
Well, then, it seems you would be terribly unqualified to evaluate the circumstances.

I do see strangers naked, and I am seen naked by strangers. I also find myself fully or partially undressed around friends or acquaintances. Apparently, our circumstances are different, but I think you should try to consider the perspective of people whose circumstances are different than your own.

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Old 6th August 2017, 06:57 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Well, then, it seems you would be terribly unqualified to evaluate the circumstances.

I do see strangers naked, and I am seen naked by strangers. I also find myself fully or partially undressed around friends or acquaintances. Apparently, our circumstances are different, but I think you should try to consider the perspective of people whose circumstances are different than your own.
It's interesting how often advocates of (superficial) diversity want everybody else to think like them (the opposite of diversity).
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Old 6th August 2017, 07:36 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Can you really not see the difference between countering a belief with facts, and countering a fact with an accusation?

Once again I must stress how incapable of distinguishing things ideologues are.

Your 'fact' is actually an accusation as well. You accuse them of being a different gender than they claim.

And again, you're wrong about your 'fact'. Gender doesn't mean what you claim it means.

You're right about ideologues, but you can't identify those very well either. The thing you grew up thinking was true and based entirely on biology, wasn't. Incorporate the new information or deal with people knowing you're wrong. Your contention you can tell someone politely that they're not the gender they are is blatantly false.
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Old 6th August 2017, 07:47 AM   #545
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If a pre surgical transwoman wants to go to the spa and use the whirlpool before her massage, which lounge should she use? If your answer is "women's," I would imagine the other women in there would mostly be uncomfortable with a penis-possessing person seeing them naked.

This is just a small illustration of the issue. You can't ask people to consider that people with penises might actually be women (or the opposite). I can agree that once they transition fully, they should be treated as the gender they transitioned to. It's the obvious cases like the one in the OP where there's a problem.
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Old 6th August 2017, 07:59 AM   #546
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Your 'fact' is actually an accusation as well. You accuse them of being a different gender than they claim.
Well, thanks for proving once again that by twisting words you can make them mean anything you like. It's not an accusation to point out that someone is wrong about objective facts.

Quote:
You're right about ideologues, but you can't identify those very well either. The thing you grew up thinking was true and based entirely on biology, wasn't.
You're calling objective reality an ideology, essentially trying to equivocate like so many creationists saying "but science is a religion, too!"
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Old 6th August 2017, 08:58 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If a pre surgical transwoman wants to go to the spa and use the whirlpool before her massage, which lounge should she use? If your answer is "women's," I would imagine the other women in there would mostly be uncomfortable with a penis-possessing person seeing them naked.
All the other women, you imagine? Or do you imagine only some of them? What else do you imagine?

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
This is just a small illustration of the issue. You can't ask people to consider that people with penises might actually be women (or the opposite).
Why not? I consider a trans-woman in the transition phase to be a trans-woman. Why can't you?

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I can agree that once they transition fully, they should be treated as the gender they transitioned to. It's the obvious cases like the one in the OP where there's a problem.
What problem is that?
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Old 6th August 2017, 01:22 PM   #548
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well, thanks for proving once again that by twisting words you can make them mean anything you like. It's not an accusation to point out that someone is wrong about objective facts.



You're calling objective reality an ideology, essentially trying to equivocate like so many creationists saying "but science is a religion, too!"
You've stumbled upon the reasons for these ideologues being labeled "regressive leftists". Like the religious fanatics of the past, shaming, lying, social-pressure bullying tactics, and denial of reality (after all, reality is racist/sexist/problematic) are their tools. Logic and reason are eeevil inventions of the white male cis patriarchy.
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Old 6th August 2017, 01:39 PM   #549
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well, thanks for proving once again that by twisting words you can make them mean anything you like. It's not an accusation to point out that someone is wrong about objective facts.

The objective fact is that you're using a word incorrectly in the context you are talking about. Gender does not mean sex there, so in being wrong you're also being rude. What you cited as your own evidence disproves you. Either move the goalpost, or take the correction.

Or you can keep repeating the phrase 'objective fact'. While an option, it really undercuts your accusations.



Quote:
You're calling objective reality an ideology, essentially trying to equivocate like so many creationists saying "but science is a religion, too!"

Nope, because again, words have meanings. You were wrong about one. Get over it. Claiming you're just following 'objective reality' is a red herring. It doesn't actually address any of the issues. You're basically just yelling 'she has a dick!' as if that determined everything. It does not.
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Old 6th August 2017, 01:39 PM   #550
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
All the other women, you imagine? Or do you imagine only some of them? What else do you imagine? ?
Poll shows about 66% acceptance among young women of TG women in women changing room (accepting or not having opinion), and a 33% acceptance in old women. ETA: interestingly it seems similar among gender by age. So the factor on rejection/acceptance is not gender, but age.

Conversely that also means about young women 33% reject their presence, and 66% older women.

The reuter poll is the first I found but a quick glance shows similar polls.

So I think xjx388 contention of some women being uneasy is valid.

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Old 6th August 2017, 01:41 PM   #551
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
You've stumbled upon the reasons for these ideologues being labeled "regressive leftists". Like the religious fanatics of the past, shaming, lying, social-pressure bullying tactics, and denial of reality (after all, reality is racist/sexist/problematic) are their tools. Logic and reason are eeevil inventions of the white male cis patriarchy.
I've been ignoring most of these, but I'd like to point out that none of the posters so concerned about my 'childish' posting give two rips about abjectly stupid strawmen like these.

Quote anyone in the thread saying anything like that Tony. Go for it.
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Old 6th August 2017, 01:41 PM   #552
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The objective fact is that you're using a word incorrectly in the context you are talking about. Gender does not mean sex there
Actually once you start speaking of pregnancy , sex is heavily important in context.

Thus a *pregnant* man giving birth, is in the current state of technology, always of female sex.
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Old 6th August 2017, 01:45 PM   #553
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Actually once you start speaking of pregnancy , sex is heavily important in context.

Thus a *pregnant* man giving birth, is in the current state of technology, always of female sex.
Yes, but that wasn't the context. Argumemnon insists he can politely tell someone they're not the gender they claim to be if they are transgendered, not that someone could tell this person from the OP that. Not that they'd need to. Transgender people know their sex doesn't match their gender.
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Old 6th August 2017, 01:49 PM   #554
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yes, but that wasn't the context. Argumemnon insists he can politely tell someone they're not the gender they claim to be if they are transgendered, not that someone could tell this person from the OP that. Not that they'd need to. Transgender people know their sex doesn't match their gender.
That is definitively not how I read his argument, but being biased (since I have a similar argument on sex versus gender) I don't think it is useful I comment on that.
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Old 6th August 2017, 01:57 PM   #555
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Take people as you find them and treat them the way you'd want to be treated...or, perhaps better yet, treat them the way you'd want your beloved child to be treated it they were in the same situation. It's pretty hard to go wrong like that, and I highly doubt any municipality will attempt to fine you for it.
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I'd like them to be treated to the truth. The truth doesn't have to be told in a way that hurts, but is it wrong of me to want my utterances to correspond to objective reality?
Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
That is definitively not how I read his argument, but being biased (since I have a similar argument on sex versus gender) I don't think it is useful I comment on that.

No, that's exactly his argument. People. Not this person, but people.

EDIT: They also used many examples that were NOT the person from the OP, so, no, his argument is not limited to the context of the incident in the OP at all. If you want someone who has done that, theprestige is the one who did.
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Old 6th August 2017, 02:02 PM   #556
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Your 'fact' is actually an accusation as well. You accuse them of being a different gender than they claim.

And again, you're wrong about your 'fact'. Gender doesn't mean what you claim it means.

You're right about ideologues, but you can't identify those very well either. The thing you grew up thinking was true and based entirely on biology, wasn't. Incorporate the new information or deal with people knowing you're wrong. Your contention you can tell someone politely that they're not the gender they are is blatantly false.
re: the highlighted, whether you are male or female or anyone in between is based entirely on biology.

Gender is about how you feel, which tends to be a more subjective matter, which is cool, but don't start denying the reality of the biology.

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Old 6th August 2017, 02:04 PM   #557
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Gender does not mean sex there
The two aren't really distinct at all. The only way to make them distinct, that is to make it possible for a biological man to be a woman in the context under discussion, is to restrict the definition of "woman" to what the person in question believes. I've been assured that this is not the case, but so far I haven't been told what makes a "woman". If one's own belief makes one's gender, and the only way to verify it is to trust one's belief, then it really doesn't tell us anything at all, since we know exactly what people's beliefs are worth.

Quote:
so in being wrong you're also being rude.
How do you figure that? This word, and its synonyms, are being thrown around way too easily around here. Furthermore, I've already argued that being rude is irrelevant to the discussion. We're debating whether a man can have babies. Politeness has nothing to do with such a question. The only reason to bring up rudeness is to shut down the discussion, in fact.

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What you cited as your own evidence disproves you.
How so?

Quote:
Nope, because again, words have meanings.
Ironic, coming from you using words like "accusation" to mean "assertion".
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Old 6th August 2017, 02:10 PM   #558
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I've been ignoring most of these, but I'd like to point out that none of the posters so concerned about my 'childish' posting give two rips about abjectly stupid strawmen like these.
Oh, speaking about responding to childish nonsense, is it not childish to expect one's opponents in a discussion to address every single disagreable thing in the discussion in order not to consider them hypocritical? Our friends from the right have the exact same behaviour.

Apparently you're not allowed to criticise one side of the debate without criticising the other side just as much. Were I a more cynical man, I'd think this was a tactic designed to draw your opponents away from your own posts, making them waste time and effort on others. Fortunately I'm not that cynical, but the thought has crossed my mind.

Quote:
Argumemnon insists he can politely tell someone they're not the gender they claim to be if they are transgendered
Well, no, that's not what I said. But I've stopped expecting posters here to be able to tell an apple from an oxcart now. If you're really interested, I suggest you look up the post in question and read it again. In fact, try to read it as if you were making that argument. Perhaps that'll help remove the assumption that I'm wrong to begin with, and help you with comprehension.
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Old 6th August 2017, 02:11 PM   #559
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
re: the highlighted, whether you are male or female or anyone in between is based entirely on biology.

Gender is about how you feel, which tends to be a more subjective matter, which is cool, but don't start denying the reality of the biology.

Oh I haven't, and neither has anyone else in the thread that I've seen. That straw man keeps being brought up, but I don't think anyone has even slipped up and said 'female' when they meant 'woman', besides of course those arguing that they are the exact same thing. Despite some insisting that's what people like myself are saying (and there being some extremist out there who do put that and similar ideas forward), that's not what is going on.

Gender is also about how you live and are treated in societal context, as well as how you feel. Some societies have more than two genders because of that. Social gender roles, traditions, allowances, and norms are rarely based on biological truth in modern times besides things like birth and menstruation.
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Old 6th August 2017, 02:29 PM   #560
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The two aren't really distinct at all. The only way to make them distinct, that is to make it possible for a biological man to be a woman in the context under discussion, is to restrict the definition of "woman" to what the person in question believes. I've been assured that this is not the case, but so far I haven't been told what makes a "woman". If one's own belief makes one's gender, and the only way to verify it is to trust one's belief, then it really doesn't tell us anything at all, since we know exactly what people's beliefs are worth.



How do you figure that? This word, and its synonyms, are being thrown around way too easily around here. Furthermore, I've already argued that being rude is irrelevant to the discussion. We're debating whether a man can have babies. Politeness has nothing to do with such a question. The only reason to bring up rudeness is to shut down the discussion, in fact.



How so?



Ironic, coming from you using words like "accusation" to mean "assertion".
You're already been shown the dictionary definitions and rejected what it said.

I haven't confused 'accusation' and 'assertion'.

Others have, and I have, explained other factors besides personal belief many times.

The rest addressed below.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Oh, speaking about responding to childish nonsense, is it not childish to expect one's opponents in a discussion to address every single disagreable thing in the discussion in order not to consider them hypocritical? Our friends from the right have the exact same behaviour.

Apparently you're not allowed to criticise one side of the debate without criticising the other side just as much. Were I a more cynical man, I'd think this was a tactic designed to draw your opponents away from your own posts, making them waste time and effort on others. Fortunately I'm not that cynical, but the thought has crossed my mind.

You're making a massive straw man. I did not say people had to criticize each side equally, you're making that up. It is pointing out that any who claim to be objecting to things like my 'childish' mirroring are not doing it because they disagree with the form of the argument, nor consistent logic in general, nor keeping the 'level of debate' high (or anything like that). They would have to disagree with the argument for other reasons, such as they're on the 'other side' or personal animosity or whatnot.

It's basically to dispel the illusion of some high horse about 'my opponents are the lying side'.



Quote:
Well, no, that's not what I said. But I've stopped expecting posters here to be able to tell an apple from an oxcart now. If you're really interested, I suggest you look up the post in question and read it again. In fact, try to read it as if you were making that argument. Perhaps that'll help remove the assumption that I'm wrong to begin with, and help you with comprehension.

I quoted you. I quoted the post you were responding too. I read before and after that.

EDIT: Eh, some stuff got cut off. Not too important, at least not important enough to type out again.
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