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5th August 2017, 01:00 PM | #521 |
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5th August 2017, 01:12 PM | #522 |
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5th August 2017, 01:33 PM | #523 |
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5th August 2017, 01:35 PM | #524 |
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5th August 2017, 03:09 PM | #525 |
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I feel even sillier, I thought it was about men having babies and whether saying man was correct or not, then it went all locker room talk.
I'l share a locker room with anyone, if my kids saw genitalia so what? I would suggest that we would be a healthier society if we didn't have this obsession with acting like sexual organs/the stuff we pee out of, are something to be ashamed about. grow up society. |
5th August 2017, 03:21 PM | #526 |
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This is how I feel, too. I've just naturally never given a toss. I accept that everyone doesn't feel the same way about everything or have the same sensitivities as everyone else. And that's a good thing. But in general, the inability to separate genitalia just hangin' there from some sort of overt sexual context seems like a detriment to modern humans. I too wish we would all move past it. Maybe we can't though. Maybe it's inert. I don't have any of the answers. |
5th August 2017, 03:26 PM | #527 | ||
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5th August 2017, 04:46 PM | #528 |
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I understand your position, but let me explain why the "locker room talk" is germane to the question of whether or not a man just had a baby.
If we treat men and women equally, if we never draw a distinction, if sex really doesn't matter in any situation*, then it really doesn't matter whether we call someone a man or a woman anyway. Ok. So Mr. Mom is really a man. So what? As long as there is no practical difference in the way we deal with men and women, then in it really doesn't matter whether someone is a man or a woman. However, there's the thing. We really do care whether someone is a man or a woman. We care socially, and in a few cases, we bring that care into law and policy. So the "locker room" stuff is just illustrating that, whether or not it is rational or wise to do so, most people care who sees them naked and, specifically, whether those people are men or women. It's just an illustration of one circumstance where most, but not all, people care about the difference between men and women. *And I'm excluding individual romantic/sexual preferences. That's something where darned near everyone cares one way or another, but that's between the two, or more, people who are trying to work that out between themselves. ETA: In other words, there is the philosophical question of what truly makes one a man or a woman, but that's not a question most people really care about. The reason it becomes a political issue, or an issue worthy of societal debate, is that certain people not traditionally viewed as women wish to be recognized as and treated like women. |
5th August 2017, 04:51 PM | #529 |
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At my age, it seems like it's growing inert, but I think the word you meant was innate.
ETA: And for what it's worth, in my youth I had the opportunity to participate in "clothing optional" situations, and I will assure you that I, and all the other young men, were quite happy to have the opportunity to view naked women. I don't know if that qualifies as "overtly sexual", but it's definitely more sexual than being around the same group of women fully clothed. |
5th August 2017, 04:54 PM | #530 |
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5th August 2017, 05:03 PM | #531 |
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5th August 2017, 05:09 PM | #532 |
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So the actual answer doesn't matter, then. All that matters is, what? The feelings of the person in question? That should determine reality?
How is that sort of thinking not applicable to everything? Who cares if the earth revolves around the sun or vice-versa? Isn't it enough that people believe the latter? Why shatter their deeply-held beliefs? This sort of thinking is anathema to me.
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5th August 2017, 06:21 PM | #533 |
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As you so recently asked me, is there no middle ground?
How about instead of it being all or nothing, we each decide for ourselves when and under what circumstances we challenge beliefs we don't agree with? I don't have a problem with transgender people, so I see no point in confronting them on these issues.
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5th August 2017, 06:36 PM | #534 |
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Yeah, I meant innate. I don't use wrong words too often in posts, so I guess I was distracted. Sorry.
As for the rest of it, I'm really not too worried about how my views may or may not be shared by other people. I was just chiming in. In a perfect world, I actually DO think there'd be a way to admire a naked body without it becoming sexual, but I'm not convinced the world (or even I) could ever fully get there. |
5th August 2017, 07:27 PM | #535 | ||
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Holy ****, do I have to link to the dictionary definition of 'cohort' too? Again you distort what someone is saying.
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5th August 2017, 09:54 PM | #536 |
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5th August 2017, 10:19 PM | #537 |
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5th August 2017, 10:32 PM | #538 |
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5th August 2017, 11:30 PM | #539 |
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I like how people who have taken a stand against offering other people respect and courtesy whine about being called bigots and being accused of hate crimes.
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6th August 2017, 02:25 AM | #540 |
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Nothing I've said suggested this. It was a question: what constitutes the criteria? I've been asking this for a week now.
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6th August 2017, 02:26 AM | #541 |
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6th August 2017, 06:10 AM | #542 |
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Well, then, it seems you would be terribly unqualified to evaluate the circumstances.
I do see strangers naked, and I am seen naked by strangers. I also find myself fully or partially undressed around friends or acquaintances. Apparently, our circumstances are different, but I think you should try to consider the perspective of people whose circumstances are different than your own. |
6th August 2017, 06:57 AM | #543 |
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6th August 2017, 07:36 AM | #544 |
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Your 'fact' is actually an accusation as well. You accuse them of being a different gender than they claim. And again, you're wrong about your 'fact'. Gender doesn't mean what you claim it means. You're right about ideologues, but you can't identify those very well either. The thing you grew up thinking was true and based entirely on biology, wasn't. Incorporate the new information or deal with people knowing you're wrong. Your contention you can tell someone politely that they're not the gender they are is blatantly false. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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6th August 2017, 07:47 AM | #545 |
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If a pre surgical transwoman wants to go to the spa and use the whirlpool before her massage, which lounge should she use? If your answer is "women's," I would imagine the other women in there would mostly be uncomfortable with a penis-possessing person seeing them naked.
This is just a small illustration of the issue. You can't ask people to consider that people with penises might actually be women (or the opposite). I can agree that once they transition fully, they should be treated as the gender they transitioned to. It's the obvious cases like the one in the OP where there's a problem. |
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6th August 2017, 07:59 AM | #546 |
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Well, thanks for proving once again that by twisting words you can make them mean anything you like. It's not an accusation to point out that someone is wrong about objective facts.
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6th August 2017, 08:58 AM | #547 |
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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6th August 2017, 01:22 PM | #548 |
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You've stumbled upon the reasons for these ideologues being labeled "regressive leftists". Like the religious fanatics of the past, shaming, lying, social-pressure bullying tactics, and denial of reality (after all, reality is racist/sexist/problematic) are their tools. Logic and reason are eeevil inventions of the white male cis patriarchy.
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6th August 2017, 01:39 PM | #549 |
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The objective fact is that you're using a word incorrectly in the context you are talking about. Gender does not mean sex there, so in being wrong you're also being rude. What you cited as your own evidence disproves you. Either move the goalpost, or take the correction. Or you can keep repeating the phrase 'objective fact'. While an option, it really undercuts your accusations.
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Nope, because again, words have meanings. You were wrong about one. Get over it. Claiming you're just following 'objective reality' is a red herring. It doesn't actually address any of the issues. You're basically just yelling 'she has a dick!' as if that determined everything. It does not. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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6th August 2017, 01:39 PM | #550 |
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Poll shows about 66% acceptance among young women of TG women in women changing room (accepting or not having opinion), and a 33% acceptance in old women. ETA: interestingly it seems similar among gender by age. So the factor on rejection/acceptance is not gender, but age.
Conversely that also means about young women 33% reject their presence, and 66% older women. The reuter poll is the first I found but a quick glance shows similar polls. So I think xjx388 contention of some women being uneasy is valid. |
6th August 2017, 01:41 PM | #551 |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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6th August 2017, 01:41 PM | #552 |
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6th August 2017, 01:45 PM | #553 |
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Yes, but that wasn't the context. Argumemnon insists he can politely tell someone they're not the gender they claim to be if they are transgendered, not that someone could tell this person from the OP that. Not that they'd need to. Transgender people know their sex doesn't match their gender.
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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6th August 2017, 01:49 PM | #554 |
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6th August 2017, 01:57 PM | #555 |
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No, that's exactly his argument. People. Not this person, but people. EDIT: They also used many examples that were NOT the person from the OP, so, no, his argument is not limited to the context of the incident in the OP at all. If you want someone who has done that, theprestige is the one who did. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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6th August 2017, 02:02 PM | #556 |
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6th August 2017, 02:04 PM | #557 |
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The two aren't really distinct at all. The only way to make them distinct, that is to make it possible for a biological man to be a woman in the context under discussion, is to restrict the definition of "woman" to what the person in question believes. I've been assured that this is not the case, but so far I haven't been told what makes a "woman". If one's own belief makes one's gender, and the only way to verify it is to trust one's belief, then it really doesn't tell us anything at all, since we know exactly what people's beliefs are worth.
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6th August 2017, 02:10 PM | #558 |
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Oh, speaking about responding to childish nonsense, is it not childish to expect one's opponents in a discussion to address every single disagreable thing in the discussion in order not to consider them hypocritical? Our friends from the right have the exact same behaviour.
Apparently you're not allowed to criticise one side of the debate without criticising the other side just as much. Were I a more cynical man, I'd think this was a tactic designed to draw your opponents away from your own posts, making them waste time and effort on others. Fortunately I'm not that cynical, but the thought has crossed my mind.
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6th August 2017, 02:11 PM | #559 |
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Oh I haven't, and neither has anyone else in the thread that I've seen. That straw man keeps being brought up, but I don't think anyone has even slipped up and said 'female' when they meant 'woman', besides of course those arguing that they are the exact same thing. Despite some insisting that's what people like myself are saying (and there being some extremist out there who do put that and similar ideas forward), that's not what is going on. Gender is also about how you live and are treated in societal context, as well as how you feel. Some societies have more than two genders because of that. Social gender roles, traditions, allowances, and norms are rarely based on biological truth in modern times besides things like birth and menstruation. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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6th August 2017, 02:29 PM | #560 |
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You're already been shown the dictionary definitions and rejected what it said.
I haven't confused 'accusation' and 'assertion'. Others have, and I have, explained other factors besides personal belief many times. The rest addressed below. You're making a massive straw man. I did not say people had to criticize each side equally, you're making that up. It is pointing out that any who claim to be objecting to things like my 'childish' mirroring are not doing it because they disagree with the form of the argument, nor consistent logic in general, nor keeping the 'level of debate' high (or anything like that). They would have to disagree with the argument for other reasons, such as they're on the 'other side' or personal animosity or whatnot. It's basically to dispel the illusion of some high horse about 'my opponents are the lying side'.
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I quoted you. I quoted the post you were responding too. I read before and after that. EDIT: Eh, some stuff got cut off. Not too important, at least not important enough to type out again. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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