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Tags LGBT issues , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 6th August 2017, 02:48 PM   #561
GlennB
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A person (A) who is genetically male, and has a history of heterosexual male activity, dates a person who self-identifies as a woman (B) after meeting on an internet dating site. They get close and cuddly, and A discovers that B has a a full set of "a boy's dangly bits".

Does he get a refund, or just an interesting new experience?

Seriously ... the scenario regarding the spa, upthread, is a real consideration.
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Old 6th August 2017, 02:52 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You're already been shown the dictionary definitions and rejected what it said.
If you're refering the time where _I_ quoted the dictionary, that isn't me being shown the definitions, and I didn't reject it. I disagreed on the interpretation. Once again you twist words in order to protect your conclusion.

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I haven't confused 'accusation' and 'assertion'.
Well you've confused it with something, since your use of the word makes no sense.

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Others have, and I have, explained other factors besides personal belief many times.
So they say, but haven't seen it. Would you be so kind as to remind you of yours?

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You're making a massive straw man. I did not say people had to criticize each side equally, you're making that up. It is pointing out that any who claim to be objecting to things like my 'childish' mirroring are not doing it because they disagree with the form of the argument, nor consistent logic in general, nor keeping the 'level of debate' high (or anything like that). They would have to disagree with the argument for other reasons, such as they're on the 'other side' or personal animosity or whatnot.
You don't know what a strawman is, then. In no way did you make this argument. You said, and I quote: "I'd like to point out that none of the posters so concerned about my 'childish' posting give two rips about abjectly stupid strawmen like these." That's it. You can't strawman a position that hasn't been taken. You said those words and left it at that, and the words strongly imply that you are accusing your detractors of hypocrisy. Now you change your story, but you can't accuse me (that's how that word should be used, by the way) of misrepresenting something you didn't say.

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It's basically to dispel the illusion of some high horse about 'my opponents are the lying side'.
It does no such thing, so it's a strange argument to make. Even if you were correct it would not dispel said "illusion".

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I quoted you. I quoted the post you were responding too.
And yet you missed the distinction. Did you go back and read it just now?

Quote:
EDIT: Eh, some stuff got cut off. Not too important, at least not important enough to type out again.
No worries. Happens to me fairly regularily.
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Old 6th August 2017, 02:56 PM   #563
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
A person (A) who is genetically male, and has a history of heterosexual male activity, dates a person who self-identifies as a woman (B) after meeting on an internet dating site. They get close and cuddly, and A discovers that B has a a full set of "a boy's dangly bits".

Does he get a refund, or just an interesting new experience?

Seriously ... the scenario regarding the spa, upthread, is a real consideration.
Oh, we've had this discussion before. If person A rejects person B after learning this, they are a bigot.
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Old 6th August 2017, 04:53 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
A person (A) who is genetically male, and has a history of heterosexual male activity, dates a person who self-identifies as a woman (B) after meeting on an internet dating site. They get close and cuddly, and A discovers that B has a a full set of "a boy's dangly bits".

Does he get a refund, or just an interesting new experience?

Seriously ... the scenario regarding the spa, upthread, is a real consideration.
That sounds suspiciously like a false dichotomy, what if they just like each other, the dangly bits nothwithstanding?
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Old 6th August 2017, 05:26 PM   #565
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
A person (A) who is genetically male, and has a history of heterosexual male activity, dates a person who self-identifies as a woman (B) after meeting on an internet dating site. They get close and cuddly, and A discovers that B has a a full set of "a boy's dangly bits".
What's the problem? A was obviously looking to date a woman, and if he doesn't think that's what he got in B, he just doesn't know what a woman is, to quote Tyr.
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Old 6th August 2017, 05:41 PM   #566
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Somewhat on topic.
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Old 6th August 2017, 06:21 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Somewhat on topic.
Corrected link.

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Old 6th August 2017, 06:49 PM   #568
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Corrected link.
Thanks!
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Old 6th August 2017, 07:25 PM   #569
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
What's the problem? A was obviously looking to date a woman, and if he doesn't think that's what he got in B, he just doesn't know what a woman is, to quote Tyr.
So what if he does not want to get sexual with a penis? If he does not want to, he is a bigot!

A lesbian woman meets someone that claims to be a woman. Later she finds out the woman has a penis. She should just go ahead and have sex with her or else she is a bigot too!


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Old 6th August 2017, 07:45 PM   #570
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Oh, we've had this discussion before. If person A rejects person B after learning this, they are a bigot.
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
What's the problem? A was obviously looking to date a woman, and if he doesn't think that's what he got in B, he just doesn't know what a woman is, to quote Tyr.
Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
So what if he does not want to get sexual with a penis? If he does not want to, he is a bigot!

A lesbian woman meets someone that claims to be a woman. Later she finds out the woman has a penis. She should just go ahead and have sex with her or else she is a bigot too!


These are especially stupid or dishonest straw men. No one has here has made any argument even adjacent to this. The quote from Argumemnon there is a straight up lie. No one has said you're a bigot if you don't want to date or have sexual relations with a transwoman. No one has implied that.

The two possibilities are you all know that no one has said that, in which case you're being dishonest, or you honestly think that is what others are saying, in which case you're not comprehending.

First of all, what counts as a 'dealbreaker' for you personally is your own to decide. If penis kills it for you, penis kills it for you. If red hair kills if for you, red hair kills it for you.

Second, and more importantly, do you all not even understand how horribly sexist to both men and women (cis, trans, or otherwise) what you are saying is? If you don't want to have sex with a person, that person's not a woman? Are men defined by just always wanting to have sex with all women? The actually hell? Is that how you all think? Is that why you think people like me think like that? This just raises so many more questions.

It does make it pretty clear that it's just not worth it. The outright lies were bad enough, but this exposes some pretty messed up thinking that I was not prepared for. Stuff all those 'PC SJW' accusations, you all know I've had my own issues with them. You guys though, damn.
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Old 6th August 2017, 08:44 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
These are especially stupid or dishonest straw men. No one has here has made any argument even adjacent to this. The quote from Argumemnon there is a straight up lie. No one has said you're a bigot if you don't want to date or have sexual relations with a transwoman. No one has implied that.
You're wrong. People have definitely said that. I don't know about on this board specifically (though Argumemnon didn't claim anyone here said that either), but such an argument has in fact been made, explicitly.

Quote:
Second, and more importantly, do you all not even understand how horribly sexist to both men and women (cis, trans, or otherwise) what you are saying is? If you don't want to have sex with a person, that person's not a woman?
It's ironic that you start out complaining about a straw man which wasn't actually a straw man, and then you turn around and construct your own straw man. That isn't what he's saying, at all.

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It does make it pretty clear that it's just not worth it. The outright lies were bad enough, but this exposes some pretty messed up thinking that I was not prepared for. Stuff all those 'PC SJW' accusations, you all know I've had my own issues with them. You guys though, damn.
Bwahahahahahaha!

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Old 6th August 2017, 09:54 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're wrong. People have definitely said that. I don't know about on this board specifically (though Argumemnon didn't claim anyone here said that either), but such an argument has in fact been made, explicitly.
There was a thread here on this, complete with a lot of brave "I wouldn't rule it outs," but I don't recall a lot of finger-wagging at the more hesitant.

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Old 7th August 2017, 02:38 AM   #573
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
These are especially stupid or dishonest straw men. No one has here has made any argument even adjacent to this. The quote from Argumemnon there is a straight up lie. No one has said you're a bigot if you don't want to date or have sexual relations with a transwoman. No one has implied that.
I'm sorry Tyr, but perhaps you didn't participate in said thread. I was there. It was said. If I remember correctly the whole thread was about whether you would be ok if you learned that your partner used to be of a different sex, and anyone who said no was said to be a bigot. So I'd like you to retract your accusation (see, there's that word again), because you seem to be very eager to use it even when you don't know what you're talking about.

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If you don't want to have sex with a person, that person's not a woman?
Oh, wow. That is hilarious. You lash out by accusing me of making a strawman, and right after that you trot out one of your own, and a very obvious one at that. That is absolutely NOTHING like what anyone here has said.
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Old 7th August 2017, 04:32 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
These are especially stupid or dishonest straw men. No one has here has made any argument even adjacent to this. The quote from Argumemnon there is a straight up lie. No one has said you're a bigot if you don't want to date or have sexual relations with a transwoman. No one has implied that.

The two possibilities are you all know that no one has said that, in which case you're being dishonest, or you honestly think that is what others are saying, in which case you're not comprehending.

First of all, what counts as a 'dealbreaker' for you personally is your own to decide. If penis kills it for you, penis kills it for you. If red hair kills if for you, red hair kills it for you.

Second, and more importantly, do you all not even understand how horribly sexist to both men and women (cis, trans, or otherwise) what you are saying is? If you don't want to have sex with a person, that person's not a woman? Are men defined by just always wanting to have sex with all women? The actually hell? Is that how you all think? Is that why you think people like me think like that? This just raises so many more questions.

It does make it pretty clear that it's just not worth it. The outright lies were bad enough, but this exposes some pretty messed up thinking that I was not prepared for. Stuff all those 'PC SJW' accusations, you all know I've had my own issues with them. You guys though, damn.
Kinda sad that it comes to this on a skeptics forum.

I fully agree. It's just not worth it. The people you quote simply don't want to understand. I have too high opinions of their intellect to believe that they can't understand.
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Old 7th August 2017, 05:01 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Kinda sad that it comes to this on a skeptics forum.

I fully agree. It's just not worth it. The people you quote simply don't want to understand. I have too high opinions of their intellect to believe that they can't understand.
Perhaps you should've read my reply before responding, eh? Tyr is wrong.
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Old 7th August 2017, 05:23 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yes, but that wasn't the context. Argumemnon insists he can politely tell someone they're not the gender they claim to be if they are transgendered, not that someone could tell this person from the OP that. Not that they'd need to. Transgender people know their sex doesn't match their gender.
Transgender people *believe* their sex doesn't match their gender.

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Old 7th August 2017, 05:23 AM   #577
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Is there a name for the idea that because someone somewhere on 'your side' expressed a position, that you can't argue your own position without addressing what they said? Or that you can't just say 'that's not the position I'm arguing' and the conversation gets to move on? 'Nobody is saying that' is not generally understood to mean 'literally nobody anywhere ever said that' and is more typically meant to be read as 'nobody in this current discussion/general consensus is saying that.'

It really is tiresome how much these things get derailed into arguments about argument. I mean this is a topic I'm interested in even, but the posts are more abysmal meta than meat.

"Oh? Nobody would call me a bigot if X? Well somebody in a thread from last year says I'm a bigot if X so you're wrong" like yes 40 tech points but can we please have a conversation instead of that?
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Old 7th August 2017, 06:52 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
"Oh? Nobody would call me a bigot if X? Well somebody in a thread from last year says I'm a bigot if X so you're wrong" like yes 40 tech points but can we please have a conversation instead of that?
Had tyr simply said that this wasn't the issue here in this thread, then we could have quite easily moved on. But he didn't. He called Argumemnon a liar, and then basically said it wasn't worth talking to him because he's a liar, even though Argumemnon didn't actually lie. You think that advances the conversation?
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Old 7th August 2017, 07:08 AM   #579
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Because the way Arg said it sounded like everyone had agreed on that conclusion. That you're a bigot if X. As opposed to it being an extreme position not being advocated in this discussion. That's why it was called a lie.

Why must we focus so damn hard on miscommunication?

"I don't see what people don't like about cream cheese"
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"What? That's a lie"
*links to thread where somebody said you're an idiot if you don't like cream cheese*
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Old 7th August 2017, 07:08 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Is there a name for the idea that because someone somewhere on 'your side' expressed a position, that you can't argue your own position without addressing what they said?
I'd say it a variation of a straw man argument.
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Old 7th August 2017, 07:12 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Because the way Arg said it sounded like everyone had agreed on that conclusion. That you're a bigot if X. As opposed to it being an extreme position not being advocated in this discussion. That's why it was called a lie.
No, Lithrael, that's absolutely NOT why tyr called it a lie. Seriously, go back to tyr's post. He didn't say that it's a fringe position, nor did he say that it's not being advanced in this thread. You have substituted your own objections for tyr's.
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Old 7th August 2017, 07:26 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...birth-son.html

Woman feels she is really a man.

Woman gets surgery, takes hormones, and lives like a man.

Now a transgender Man, "he" gets pregnant and gives birth to a healthy baby.

Someone please explain to me why I should be required to call this person a "man", even though "he" has become pregnant and gave birth to a child.
Because said person asked you to.

Am I the only one who has seen this OP, and just had that same reaction, every time?
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Old 7th August 2017, 07:27 AM   #583
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Transgender people *believe* their sex doesn't match their gender.
There is probably either a chemical or hormonal or structural, genetically-driven reason behind said belief. Contrary to some here would like us to believe, saying that doesn't mean transgender people aren't people, or that they should be harassed, or that they should off themselves. However, it also does not mean that suddenly, gender is all about, or mainly about, or even significantly about, that belief.
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Old 7th August 2017, 07:29 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
"Oh? Nobody would call me a bigot if X? Well somebody in a thread from last year says I'm a bigot if X so you're wrong" like yes 40 tech points but can we please have a conversation instead of that?
Perhaps you didn't follow, but my comment was in response to someone bringing up that exact scenario, and the last time that was discussed here, to my knowledge, was the thread I was refering to.

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Because the way Arg said it sounded like everyone had agreed on that conclusion.
That is your interpretation. It was no way intended like that, nor reasonably interpreted like that.
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Old 7th August 2017, 07:40 AM   #585
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You're not talking about this?

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
These are especially stupid or dishonest straw men. No one has here has made any argument even adjacent to this. The quote from Argumemnon there is a straight up lie. No one has said you're a bigot if you don't want to date or have sexual relations with a transwoman. No one has implied that.

If you are, we're honestly just reading it differently.
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Old 7th August 2017, 07:46 AM   #586
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That is your interpretation. It was no way intended like that, nor reasonably interpreted like that.
Every time I've interacted with you in this thread has been me trying to guess what you meant because you didn't spell anything out. It's like you're making shadow puppets and I go "is it a bunny?" and you go "I in no way meant for that to be a bunny"

I'll respectfully withdraw from this thread, it's way too frustrating for me.
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Old 7th August 2017, 09:10 AM   #587
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Mod WarningKnock off the personalization
Responding to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By:kmortis
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Old 7th August 2017, 09:28 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
biologically xx is female and xy is male,
there are exceptions and they tend to have been recognised and labelled already.
But there can't be any exceptions, we start making one exception here and then we have to start treating transgender people as if they were people and not constantly belittle them as they deserve for being different.
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Old 7th August 2017, 09:31 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So we have a person who is a man (gender is masculine), but not a male (because his sex is female). Great. Good terms.


Take down all the locker room signs that say "men" and replace them with ones that say "male", and it works for me.

Oh.......not everyone agrees? Hmmm.....figures.
And we totally have to stop pretending androgen insenstive men are women. They need to use the male locker room. Simple and direct.

You can't depend on a simple look at someones genitals to be sure what their sex is after all. You need detailed physicals to determine what locker room someone is allowed to use.
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Old 7th August 2017, 09:43 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Every time I've interacted with you in this thread has been me trying to guess what you meant because you didn't spell anything out.
So ask for clarification. It isn't hard, and it sure beats adding your own interpretation which, by the way, is not justified by you not understanding my points or arguments.
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Old 7th August 2017, 09:49 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
All the other women, you imagine? Or do you imagine only some of them? What else do you imagine?
I imagined that the other women would MOSTLY be uncomfortable. I don't think that's off-base. See my reply to Aepervius below.

Quote:
Why not? I consider a trans-woman in the transition phase to be a trans-woman. Why can't you?
For most situations, I absolutely would. But there are other certain situations where it would make me uncomfortable. A pre surgical transman in my dressing room would be one of those situations. It would just be weird -a man with breasts and vagina walking around naked in the common areas. I would probably be cool with it after the initial discomfort because I'm not really that uncomfortable with nudity; I could roll with it. I think women are even more sensitive than men when it comes to these kinds of intimate situations.

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What problem is that?
Objective reality in conflict with self-perception and the social issues involved.

Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Poll shows about 66% acceptance among young women of TG women in women changing room (accepting or not having opinion), and a 33% acceptance in old women. ETA: interestingly it seems similar among gender by age. So the factor on rejection/acceptance is not gender, but age.

Conversely that also means about young women 33% reject their presence, and 66% older women.

The reuter poll is the first I found but a quick glance shows similar polls.

So I think xjx388 contention of some women being uneasy is valid.
I would also add that responding to a poll is one thing; being confronted with a person who has a penis openly walking around in your dressing room is quite another. You didn't say anything about pre-surgical transwomen so I'm not sure if the poll covered that situation. But still, it reveals significant discomfort in the general idea of transgendered people in a locker room situation.
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Old 7th August 2017, 10:02 AM   #592
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Is discomfort or expectation of discomfort a reason to exclude a group of people from something carte blanche? It seems like we have, on occasion, rejected that idea. By "we" I mean our representative system or society in general, not people on this forum in general or specific.
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Old 7th August 2017, 10:03 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So since I'm the one who brought up locker rooms, I'll chime in.

The locker room is a concrete example of a more general situation. The question is about whether someone feeling like/identifying as a particular gender actually made him that gender. Is a biological male who identifies as female, really female?*

That's a rather abstract question. We can debate if this fellow who just gave birth is "really" a man or not. Our answer will not have any real significance all by itself. He/she will be exactly the same person, regardless of whether we call him/her a woman or a man. (To refer to an oft-quoted story, usually attributed to Abraham Lincoln, if we call a tail a leg, a dog still has four legs, because calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg.)
.
Which is why you need detailed physicals before you can get in any locker room.
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Old 7th August 2017, 10:04 AM   #594
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I didn't click on the links, but unless they are naked in the pictures, with the naughty bits displayed, I can't answer the question.

Yes, I am actually saying it. Genitalia trumps all.
So it is morphology not biology that really matters now. But only genital. And yet no one seems to want to have public inspection of genitals as required entry into all locker rooms. IT is the obvious answer.
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Old 7th August 2017, 10:07 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by CosCos View Post
So many open-minded and progressive people on here that don't give a hoot about locker rooms and who should go in which. That's just great, bully for you. But please realize you are the VAST minority of people.

I have body image issues, it's hard enough for me to use a men's only locker room, having women in there, regardless of their own mental health issues would cause me great discomfort. My wife relayed to me that she would feel extremely uncomfortable if there were a man in the locker room at the gym, regardless of their "identity."
Is this get rid of the trans women or trans men from your locker room? Which one do you want in there with you? Likewise your wife.

From the first paragraph it seems to be ban all trans people because they are not a high enough percentage to matter. But what is that percentage, why do gay people meet that percentage but not trans people?
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Old 7th August 2017, 10:08 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
How would you refer to this person? Him or her?
And do you want him in the locker room with your wife?
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Old 7th August 2017, 10:26 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Objective reality in conflict with self-perception and the social issues involved.
Agreed. No matter how much a person might identify as female*, if they need (and here I'm assuming the truth of my guess - just ftsoa) a catheter to deal with a urogenital problem and ask for a female-style catheter then their doctor is fully entitled to point out that, physically, they are not 'female' as they possess male genitals and need a male's catheter.

(*And reverse the whole scenario if you wish.)

Self-identification doesn't trump physical reality.

To go back to my 'dating scene' a while back - if the cis-hetero-male notes that his date is not cis-female and wasn't made aware of this before they met up then I'd say he'd be very entitled to be pretty miffed. He doesn't become a bigot for refusing to get sexual with her, nor even for going off in a huff; he* shouldn't have been exposed to the situation in the first place.

(*See * above)
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Old 7th August 2017, 10:36 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
How would you refer to this person? Him or her?
That's an easy one: him.
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Old 7th August 2017, 10:38 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Agreed. No matter how much a person might identify as female*, if they need (and here I'm assuming the truth of my guess - just ftsoa) a catheter to deal with a urogenital problem and ask for a female-style catheter then their doctor is fully entitled to point out that, physically, they are not 'female' as they possess male genitals and need a male's catheter.

(*And reverse the whole scenario if you wish.)

Self-identification doesn't trump physical reality.

To go back to my 'dating scene' a while back - if the cis-hetero-male notes that his date is not cis-female and wasn't made aware of this before they met up then I'd say he'd be very entitled to be pretty miffed. He doesn't become a bigot for refusing to get sexual with her, nor even for going off in a huff; he* shouldn't have been exposed to the situation in the first place.

(*See * above)
I would use the same type of catheter on a man or a woman.
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Old 7th August 2017, 10:39 AM   #600
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
To go back to my 'dating scene' a while back - if the cis-hetero-male notes that his date is not cis-female and wasn't made aware of this before they met up then I'd say he'd be very entitled to be pretty miffed. He doesn't become a bigot for refusing to get sexual with her, nor even for going off in a huff; he* shouldn't have been exposed to the situation in the first place.

(*See * above)
It's good that nobody is arguing differently then, isn't it?

Do you honestly think we're saying that you must be comfortable dating a chick with a dick or we'll call you a bigot?
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