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1st August 2017, 06:40 PM | #81 |
Penultimate Amazing
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We've seen your argument.
Here's what you've failed to do: Show us how you'd "treat" (<gag>) someone to your truth in a way doesn't hurt? In the absence of a working example, what both TM and I are telling you is that you can't do it because it's fundamentally rude to respond to someone correcting you as to their gender by telling them they're wrong. |
1st August 2017, 06:41 PM | #82 | ||
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
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No, disagreeing with your ideology is no problem at all. You only think it's a problem because it's an ideology. That's the nature of the beast.
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1st August 2017, 06:47 PM | #83 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 18,090
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You don't. Rank isn't self-bestowed. You don't have to figure out your rank, or question your rank growing up. It's unlikely you'll be tortured for your rank.
A transwoman wants to be called 'her' because she is a woman. A transman wants to be called 'he' because he is a man. You want to be called Emperor even though you don't think you are one because you don't know who is a man and who is a woman. It's a way of thinking I just can't mentally parse.
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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1st August 2017, 06:48 PM | #84 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
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You know, this is very amusing. Had I omitted the highlighted part, I know for a fact, by experience, that you or someone else would've concocted a nice hypothetical where I call people fat in the streets for no reason. Apparently in that situation, which has happened not long ago right here on the forum, I'm speaking of the general case. And now that I added the highlighted to cover the general case, suddenly it can only apply to the specific and I must argue with trans people.
You will interpret my words in the way that best suits your need to be outraged about my disagreement. So how about you spare us all that and instead make an actual case? I've made mine, distinguishing being polite and respectful with telling people what they want to hear because they want to be told a lie. So yes, I'm sure it hurts their feelings that I'm not going along with the lie. But what of it? My feelings are hurt all the time and I don't demand others change to protect them. Are we now in a world where the safe space in our mind is paramount and objective reality is unimportant? That's a crucial distinction I'm making. How about we deal with that? |
1st August 2017, 06:51 PM | #85 |
Fiend God
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Location: In a post-fact world
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Neither is gender.
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1st August 2017, 06:56 PM | #86 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 18,090
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Sex. The word you're thinking of is sex.
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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1st August 2017, 07:04 PM | #87 |
Penultimate Amazing
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There is no Antimemetics Division. |
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1st August 2017, 07:12 PM | #88 |
Penultimate Amazing
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No, he is not. It's perfectly fine for folks to humor him in his delusion, just as it's fine for them to pretend that they appreciate the eggs from the man down the street who thinks he's a chicken.
A transwoman is a woman you say, don't confuse gender with sex. Okay, well what words applying to women then do not apply to transwomen? When we talk about animals and sex we tend to use the words "male" and "female." Is a transwoman a female? |
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1st August 2017, 07:14 PM | #89 |
Poisoned Waffles
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Not confronting people needlessly about their gender issues is an ideology? Minding your own business about things that don't concern you--that's an ideology? I would have thought an ideology would require positive action, not lack of action. Live and let live, that's an ideology, I guess. What a terrible one to follow! I should be ashamed.
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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1st August 2017, 07:18 PM | #90 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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1st August 2017, 07:20 PM | #91 |
Penultimate Amazing
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There is no Antimemetics Division. |
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1st August 2017, 07:26 PM | #92 |
Guest
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The only way that you can insist that a transfemale is really and objectively a woman is if we define "woman" as "someone who identifies as a woman." It's a circular definition. The word ceases to have any meaning at all, and saying "what a woman is" becomes a meaningless phrase.
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1st August 2017, 07:34 PM | #93 |
... and your little dog too.
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1st August 2017, 07:40 PM | #94 |
Other (please write in)
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Far be it for me to be defending it, but psychology and psychiatry are sciences and study real phenomena. Science and objective reality includes more than genitalia and chromosomes (which I haven't observed in 99.99% of the people I have gendered).
The question of gender identity, dysphoria, its nature, how society and culture interact and vice versa, language, permanence, whether quixotic ones exist, etc. are much more relevant. I certainly have counter-trending views that rile those darned SJWs on these matters, but at least I am addressing the actual issues. Some look to MRI scans and "x brain in y body" if they need crude physicalist explanations. |
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As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
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1st August 2017, 07:45 PM | #95 |
Poisoned Waffles
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Perhaps the concept of sexes is hazier than previously conceived. Maybe it's the definitions that should be reconsidered, rather than attempting to force reality to fit the definitions we should make the definitions more flexible to describe reality?
Just because Ug and Grug perceived exactly two distinct sexes a hundred thousand years ago doesn't mean we're stuck with that forever, does it? |
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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1st August 2017, 08:15 PM | #96 |
Species traitor
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Even if there is some "objective reality" to gender, it's not like I ask for DNA samples when I meet people. If I think someone is a man and she tells me she's a woman, I'm not going to predicate my embarrassed apology on whether or not she's trans. I probably wouldn't even give her an ocular pat-down. I'd do the right thing and immediately begin objectifying her.
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1st August 2017, 09:33 PM | #97 |
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,360
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Perhaps the giving of birth was a clue that he is a she?
It seems rather odd to me that a woman who identifies as a man would even want to give birth. They are a man, no? Men don't do that. Or are we now living in a world where we can't even say, "Men don't give birth," without offending someone. "Your world frightens and confuses me." -Caveman Lawyer. |
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Hello. |
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1st August 2017, 09:35 PM | #98 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls.
It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world, Except for Lola. Lo lo lo lo Lola. |
1st August 2017, 09:45 PM | #99 |
Philosopher
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So, if he's doing it by divine means, I can only tell him this: 'Mr. Geller, you're doing it the hard way.' --James Randi |
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1st August 2017, 10:09 PM | #100 |
Penultimate Amazing
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My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. |
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2nd August 2017, 12:08 AM | #101 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
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There are already laws on harassment on the book. Therefore such a specific law is unwarranted. In fact it is probably unconstitutional , as it is government imposing onto people a fine against their speech between 2 private entity , none of which is threatening libelous or slandering, so abridging their free speech.
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2nd August 2017, 12:17 AM | #102 |
Non credunt, semper verificare
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Yes it does. You can make up *different* social construct and have 23442534653 genders if you wish, nobody forced to recognize such definition. But there is and will always be 2 sexes, baring evolution of a third over millions of years. The male and the female. There may be error during the development, like many X chromosome kilfner , testosterone resistance, hermaphroditic, but those are errors. Why is it important ? Because you define biology by the normal case, and not by the pathological errors. Thus as such there are only male and female among mammals. If you want something else, pray strongly for a miracle and become, say, a frog or certain species of fish which can change, or something unicellular which has neither. Until that miracle happens there are only male and female.
But You can define what You want as social gender constructs. With no guarantee that the rest of the world agree on it. So while I *may* out of politesse call that woman by "he" , she is a surgically changed female biologically. |
2nd August 2017, 12:35 AM | #103 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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2nd August 2017, 12:57 AM | #104 |
Species traitor
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,030
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Yes. The relevant law is called "The New York City Human Rights Law", which was amended to protect gender identity in 2000-something, and that's the law that these guidelines are about. That is, the law we already have is the same law people are having a daily wail about.
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If every conversation you have with one of your employees goes something like "Hey, Jew. How's it going, Jew? Did you finish those TPS reports, Jew?" you're going to lose the resultant lawsuit if you can't manage a better defense than "free speech!", even though it's perfectly legal to treat people that shoddily outside of an employment relationship. |
2nd August 2017, 02:03 AM | #105 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
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No, I know what I said.
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2nd August 2017, 02:06 AM | #106 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
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And AGAIN asking me to defend a position I did not take. Is this a game?
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2nd August 2017, 02:09 AM | #107 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
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What is the objective reality of "kilogram"? As you well know, it's not the name of the measure, but the measure itself.
If it's insignificant then both sides are guilty. Perhaps. Or perhaps you're wrong. |
2nd August 2017, 02:10 AM | #108 |
Fiend God
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2nd August 2017, 02:24 AM | #109 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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2nd August 2017, 02:26 AM | #110 |
Fiend God
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2nd August 2017, 02:27 AM | #111 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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2nd August 2017, 02:59 AM | #112 |
Fiend God
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2nd August 2017, 03:00 AM | #113 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 03:01 AM | #114 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 03:06 AM | #115 |
Orthogonal Vector
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And the law doesn't actually do that. It punishes harassment campaigns based on their gender. Kind of like making a pass at a coworker is fine, but repeated unwanted passes opens you up to large civil penalties. Clearly you are against sexual harassment being punishable too, because you get millions for simply making a pass at someone.
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 03:08 AM | #116 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 03:10 AM | #117 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 03:12 AM | #118 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,950
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It is to someone who has spent years or even decades not wanting to be a 'him'.
It's about context. Just like there's a difference between accidentally using the wrong pronoun, and insisting that you call someone a man or woman because you assert your knowledge of biology trumps theirs. There are neurological and hormonal factors that cause transgenderism. Those are just as biological as chromosomes and dangly bits. Just because biology doesn't always play by the rules we think we've discovered doesn't make it less biological. I'd say that the fact transgender people exist, and cannot change their gender identity is just as objective and/or arbitrary as judging chromosomes or 'looking' male or female. But you were talking about biological truth. And this is not some kind of rhetorical trick, I'm genuinely interested... Why does this transition matter to you? It seems a little arbitrary to me to on the one hand define genders by the biological definitions of chromosomes, birth sex, and so on, and at the same time accept that hormonal and surgical alterations can change it 'enough' to warrant a different pronoun. Especially in everyday situations, which is where these questions about how to address someone arise. I don't think I could reliably judge by looking at someone whether they are an unusual looking 'regular' man or woman, trans, pre- or post-op, what kinds of surgeries they have had or are planning on having, if they're on hormones, and whether or not that meets certain criteria. And I am not going to ask them about any of that in order to decide which pronoun I'm going to use. |
2nd August 2017, 03:12 AM | #119 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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2nd August 2017, 03:14 AM | #120 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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