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2nd August 2017, 11:20 AM | #241 |
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But, Arg, I don't think anyone here is demanding that you think of that person as the gender they want you to refer to them as, just that you use the forms of address they request. (They'd like you to, but I'd like a pony.)
The issue of what gender they 'really' are can be argued as much as you like as long as it's not in front of them or by name, IMO. I asked you a direct question after reading the whole thread and not being certain what lines you were drawing on which bit of the sand and you did not answer it. |
2nd August 2017, 11:21 AM | #242 |
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Well, here's the thing. The person whom I was responding to had pointed out that his grandfather was a racist. His mother grew up not being racist, but she was homophobic. They each had these blind spots. So the question is pretty obvious: what is his blind spot? What is his irrational prejudice that his grandkids will cluck disapprovingly about years from now?
Adult babies? People who have sex with animals? Plural marriage? I mean it's not as if the next generation of liberals is going to stop discovering new victims of society that they can adopt as a pet cause, thereby proving themselves more tolerant than their benighted ancestors. |
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2nd August 2017, 11:22 AM | #243 |
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2nd August 2017, 11:23 AM | #244 |
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2nd August 2017, 11:35 AM | #245 |
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I would suppose that it might depend on circumstances, some of which you may not know to look at a person. This country's history abounds shamefully with examples of people whose supposed race does not match their appearance, whose ability to vote, to join organizations, to live where they wish, even to live, is based on assumptions about race.
I really do not think it is reasonable to suggest that claiming race is the same as claiming you're a polar bear. Do you really? Are you saying you're confident enough in your perception of appearance to accuse a stranger of lying? |
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2nd August 2017, 11:40 AM | #246 |
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That's unfortunately true.
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2nd August 2017, 11:43 AM | #247 |
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2nd August 2017, 11:45 AM | #248 |
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Careful now. There are quite a few less scrupulous people who would use the higher crime rate in the black population of the US as a sign that they are more dangerous to other groups as a response to your point here. Not that you don't actually have a point, that is.
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2nd August 2017, 11:52 AM | #249 |
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Well it's an Overton window kind of thing isn't it? Asking for a form of address that only ambiguously matches is generally reasonable because mostly people decided it was better than not. Asking for one that doesn't seem to match like with this pregnant bloke gets some blowback and the window has to stretch to fit him but it does. Actual five headed dragon McGee is well outside and we don't have to feel rude not calling him dragon McGee. There's some biological/psychological window dressing but it's 90% social consensus. By that I mean, The facts are there but they're not very relevant to what the social consensus ends up being.
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2nd August 2017, 11:54 AM | #250 |
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Yes, you most certainly can.
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2nd August 2017, 11:56 AM | #251 |
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The issue is that a whole set of things were described by various posters in various threads to be dehumanising, and some of them amount to little more than a disagreement. So making sure that there's an issue of dehumanisation there would seem like an important step before we decide what's cautious or not.
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2nd August 2017, 12:01 PM | #252 |
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You could make an argument that the harm caused is not so much by the sex as it is by society's reaction to it. We all know there are cases where underage kids fall in love with adults, where the sex is entirely consensual, except for this silly social construct of childhood being complete asexual.
Let's try a different one. How do you fell about adult incest? Why are you so intolerant? |
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2nd August 2017, 12:06 PM | #253 |
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2nd August 2017, 12:12 PM | #254 |
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You could. It would be laughably terrible. But yeah, you could make it.
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All such silly things.
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2nd August 2017, 12:19 PM | #255 |
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2nd August 2017, 12:22 PM | #256 |
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2nd August 2017, 12:24 PM | #257 |
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2nd August 2017, 12:32 PM | #258 |
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2nd August 2017, 12:34 PM | #259 |
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2nd August 2017, 01:07 PM | #260 |
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2nd August 2017, 01:07 PM | #261 |
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So then, how do you objectively and factually know a person's gender? Not sex, gender. What is your definition and what is your methodology?
You seem to be saying in multiple comments that at least some trans people are incorrect in their own assertions about their own gender and you have access to the truth. What is that truth? |
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2nd August 2017, 01:07 PM | #262 |
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It's really fascinating how the use of words can spin something in one direction. Let's certainly not point out that I never said I refused to use them, or that I specifically said that I'd use them post-transition. Let's just ignore that, which allows us to pretend that I've said something different!
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2nd August 2017, 01:12 PM | #263 |
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You can't have one without the other. Gender is the expression of one's sex in a particular context.
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2nd August 2017, 01:14 PM | #264 |
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2nd August 2017, 01:27 PM | #265 |
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Tyr having a position that he holds and argues in favor of isn't Tyr demanding that everyone agrees with him. He'd like you to, sure. He can even say he thinks you're wrong for disagreeing with him. But the only thing I've seen people actually wanting out of anyone else as far as actually doing things is for them to respect pronouns/names.
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2nd August 2017, 01:32 PM | #266 |
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2nd August 2017, 01:33 PM | #267 |
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When you claim something is objectively true, then you are claiming that anyone who disagrees is wrong. And when you insist that you are right and they are wrong, you are insisting that they change their position to match yours. If you didn't care if they maintain their wrong position, you wouldn't argue against it.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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2nd August 2017, 01:42 PM | #268 |
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Arg's comments on page 2 made that unclear, he said a lot of things that made it sound as if anyone who hadn't got far enough into a transition to satisfy him wanted their pronouns respected they could 'hear it from someone else' and that's why I asked for clarification which I did not get.
I'm not here to argue about the nature of argument. |
2nd August 2017, 01:50 PM | #269 |
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2nd August 2017, 02:21 PM | #270 |
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Because men do not have babies. That's just an objective truth. Men who were born women do have babies, though. So that's the problem. It isn't reflective of reality to say that a transman is fully a man. Especially when they are pregnant.
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"Daddy, I'm a boy, can I have babies?" "No." "But Michael's daddy is a man and he can have babies." I'm sure there will be some fun conversations in the future.
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2nd August 2017, 02:22 PM | #271 |
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2nd August 2017, 02:27 PM | #272 |
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I would say you certainly did if you presume that a person who claims one gender should not be identified by that gender. You are saying "you say you're an X but I say you're a Y." You can fudge it and say the lie is an unfortunate consequence of their illness or confusion, but if you say they're not what they say, and insist on their being something else, that's what you're doing, and that's the case whether you're right or wrong.
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2nd August 2017, 02:35 PM | #273 |
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If one believes that transgenderism is a mental illness, then it follows that one wouldn't think the ill person is lying. They truly believe it due to their illness. I don't think that the person with Somatoparaphrenia is lying when they say they believe the arm they were born with doesn't belong to them. I do however thing they are wrong.
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2nd August 2017, 02:42 PM | #274 |
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2nd August 2017, 02:43 PM | #275 |
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2nd August 2017, 02:46 PM | #276 |
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Who is making me use these terms? Gender activists are behind the movement if that's what you're asking. Have you not heard of these new pronouns? Here is a chart from one organization. There are many.
How many times a day does it come up in my life? It hasn't yet. How is this relevant? |
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2nd August 2017, 03:08 PM | #277 |
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I already did, you just missed it because it was directed to someone who is making a full argument.
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You're using criteria from a different context for 'woman' to justify being rude to people (and in fact, denying that it's rude). I will not coddle this delusion.
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No, you're not arguing in good faith because you continually refuse to clarify, and ignore the very important context people have been trying to get you to incorporate. If you did incorporated this context into your argument and still came to a different conclusion, that would be one thing (and I don't see how you could come to a radically different conclusion, by it is hypothetically possible), that would be arguing in good faith.
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You're the one insisting you know the truth of other people's gender. Again, do you not see the mirror held up?
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Except that doesn't even resemble what I did. I took the form of your argument and used it advancing a different argument from yours. Why yes, there are reasons that something that can be childish is not always childish such as the mirror argument. It's all in how one is using it. It was not intended to troll, but to illuminate the flaws in the other argument and advance discussion. It was also not done in an over the top, mocking, manner. Also, I already did raise a legitimate argument, I only did it to someone who would actually consider it rather than ignore all but the little parts they think they could attack. I also have not straw manned anyone's argument here to my knowledge, but speaking of that... ...a transman or transwoman are not just people who 'decide' to become a different gender. Again, context matters. In the context we've been talking about (interpersonal interactions and to some degree societal treatment), a transman is a man and a transwoman is a woman. Those who want to slip in the sex definition of men and women (male and female) are those straw manning. |
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2nd August 2017, 03:37 PM | #278 |
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I don't deny their existence. Lots of silly things exist. I'm just wondering who's making you use them. Was it a sternly worded email? Did hired goons show up at your door?
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2nd August 2017, 04:05 PM | #279 |
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First, let me say thank you for responding!
What makes you say that? What discipline or objective set of observable facts leads you that claim?
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It may "almost always" work, but the consequences for getting it wrong are at the very least pretty hurtful, and the consequences for letting the person you're talking to make that determination are... what?
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2nd August 2017, 04:11 PM | #280 |
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