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10th February 2020, 07:31 PM | #41 |
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Killing defenseless people - especially women and children - is the specialty of the IRA scum and always will be. Sinn Fein is just another name for those animals and always will be. A pox on the house of anyone who calls themselves Sinn Fein or IRA and any of their supporters.
The fact that they have election success is no testament to anything good about them - it is just testament to the fact that people can embrace any horrible behaviour and vote for anyone who agrees with their hatred and prejudices. (For more proof of that type of voting behaviour - see the United States' 45th - and most likely 46th - president). On 10 February 2005, the government-appointed Independent Monitoring Commission reported that it firmly supported the PSNI and Garda Síochána assessments that the IRA was responsible for the Northern Bank robbery and that certain senior members of Sinn Féin were also senior members of the IRA and would have had knowledge of and given approval to the carrying out of the robbery. Fourth report of the Independent Monitoring Commission". Independent Monitoring Commission. 10 February 2005. |
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10th February 2020, 07:35 PM | #42 |
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10th February 2020, 10:04 PM | #43 |
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Okay, so far I see a link to a bank robbery 15 years ago and a lack of a benefit of a doubt.
I am not an IRA or Sinn Fein supporter. I recognize their past terrorism. I don’t forgive it. Many innocent people were killed by their thugs. But my understanding is that they pulled back from violent terrorism with the Good Friday agreement in 1998. Life in The UK is safer because of this. Many of their thugs have died or are simply too old to do much. Many of the people in Sinn Fein today never committed violence. Refusal to acknowledge this seems to me to be counterproductive. Sure they can change back to violence again, so being cautious and suspicious of them makes sense. But not recognizing they are important political powers in Ireland that need to involved in foreign and internal policy issues seems impractical. Again they are not the only terror group that now is a part of a legitimate government. |
10th February 2020, 10:07 PM | #44 |
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Just as a totally unrelated side note, but you are aware that should Trump win re-election, he will remain the 45th president. #46 will be the President after Trump, whether that is in the Election this year, as a result of his inability to complete his term, or in the case of his re-election this year, whoever is elected in 2024. Re-elected Presidents don't increase the number. Unless you are suggesting that whoever follows Trump will also be elected because of people's hatred and prejudices?
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10th February 2020, 10:23 PM | #45 |
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11th February 2020, 12:08 AM | #46 |
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11th February 2020, 12:45 AM | #47 |
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The bank robbery connection proves that they have only pulled back - not changed their ways. What do you think the money will be used for - paying money to all the families of the people they raped, tortured and murdered - or for a war chest?
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt |
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11th February 2020, 12:56 AM | #48 |
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They haven’t done terrorism for years, and other people once did terrorism, too.
Martin McGuinness was the First Minister until 2017 and only died that same year. Gerry Adams was a TD until, literally, yesterday. It’s not as if those involved in actual IRA activities are long gone. For me, the burden of proof is on them to show they can be trusted. They have to earn that trust and haven’t yet. |
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11th February 2020, 01:00 AM | #49 |
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11th February 2020, 01:05 AM | #50 |
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt |
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11th February 2020, 02:27 AM | #51 |
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Er?
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-37401014.html Terrorists in NI have been continuing to bomb and shoot people all this century. That your news sources apparently don't carry those stories is quite strange if they are interested in reporting terrorist stories from the UK. |
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11th February 2020, 02:59 AM | #52 |
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And coincidentally today this news has broken. BBC News - Lyra McKee murder: Four men arrested in Derry
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northe...-west-51457008 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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11th February 2020, 03:03 AM | #53 |
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No. While the issues are similar, desperate idiots believing promised by populists, it's not that Brexit related. To voters Brexit was a non-issue.
That was bugger all to so with the vote; it was entirely domestic issues, to wit, housing and health. It'll incite the lunatic fringes in Norn Iron but not yet. |
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11th February 2020, 03:06 AM | #54 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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11th February 2020, 03:07 AM | #55 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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11th February 2020, 03:09 AM | #56 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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11th February 2020, 03:11 AM | #57 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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11th February 2020, 03:13 AM | #58 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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11th February 2020, 03:27 AM | #59 |
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Yes, but...
There's a new left/right divide in Irish politics but it's very fragmented and based on reaction to domestic issues. The 'old left' of Labour (and I'll include the SDs there) isn't doing well and the vote share is going to the Greens and Sinn Féin who, frankly, aren't fit to govern. Plus lots of independents and fringe idiots (remember Wallace ). Plus let's look at the numbers: 38 Fianna Fáil 37 Sinn Féin (plus Tóibín) 35 Fine Gael 12 SD/Labour 12 Greens 6 Solidarity/PBP/I4C 18 Independents Try and get a stable block of eighty out of that.... An xmas election I suspect. Also I'd like to know the five thousand who voted for Barrett, Reynolds and their fellow fascists. |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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11th February 2020, 03:29 AM | #60 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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11th February 2020, 04:51 AM | #61 |
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My comment here;
...was not meant to suggest that all Unionists would accept the vote, as some seem to think. The reality would be more likely to be; a reigniting of the Troubles by Unionists inclined to violence and an exodus of others to live in the UK. There are also moderate Unionists who would remain and who would accept democracy. What they then do, who knows? They may try to keep NI as a devolved part of Ireland, so Ireland becomes like the UK, with devolved and a central government. I am sure they would try to retain and even further promote their Ulster and Protestant heritage, history and identities. Only time will tell, I doubt anything will happen in my life time, but I do think Ireland will eventually unite. |
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11th February 2020, 05:16 AM | #62 |
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11th February 2020, 05:26 AM | #63 |
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Exactly. If there is to be no one who has a past that involved the supporting of terrorism, either actively planting bombs or enabling those who did, then many from both sides should not be in politics.
Sinn Fein supporters and politicians do not see themselves as the ones in the wrong. They can point to plenty of violence by the UK army and RUC during the Troubles. |
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11th February 2020, 05:26 AM | #64 |
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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11th February 2020, 05:32 AM | #65 |
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11th February 2020, 05:51 AM | #66 |
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11th February 2020, 06:11 AM | #67 |
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11th February 2020, 06:21 AM | #68 |
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Probably depends on which era of the IRA you are referring to.
The provos operating in the time of The Troubles probably have the most unpalatable reputation. I doubt there is much allure to that type of militancy when reunification seems within grasp through non-violent means. |
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11th February 2020, 07:52 AM | #69 |
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11th February 2020, 08:08 AM | #70 |
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Do you have the same attitude toward Fine Gael and Fianna Fail? They both had their origins in the IRA which even in 1922 was a terrorist organization, especially Fianna fail, they lost the Civil War but quickly took political power for something like 70 years.
It really does appear as though they legitimately gave up violence in 1998. How long do you need to believe they have changed. Don't forget the civil war. |
11th February 2020, 11:13 AM | #71 |
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11th February 2020, 11:48 AM | #72 |
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11th February 2020, 12:50 PM | #73 |
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I would bet a reborn Dal Riata before a united Ireland. Scotland and Ulster decide to leave the UK for the European Union as the United Kingdom of Scotland and Northern Ireland.
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11th February 2020, 01:03 PM | #74 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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11th February 2020, 01:26 PM | #75 |
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Which IRA? There are a number of groups calling themselves the IRA out there.
Problem is given the 'Official" IRA's history, it's not unreasonable to suspect their non violence is just a tacitical move, and they will go back to their old ways when they think the time is right. |
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11th February 2020, 01:29 PM | #76 |
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11th February 2020, 01:31 PM | #77 |
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11th February 2020, 01:52 PM | #78 |
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11th February 2020, 03:50 PM | #79 |
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IMO the "Irish Question" has generated among the most long lasting hatreds/never forget emotions of any political conflict. Events of hundreds of years ago are still periodically paraded out (sometimes literally) to revisit and to re-enliven these hatreds. At one level I understand. I've already indicated in another thread how I could never forgive if a loved one of mine was killed as "collateral damage" in a military strike. Worse still in a terrorist action.
But I still maintain that things change in ways that are important to recognize, if only for practical reasons. Terrorists die and are replaced with people who have not performed violent acts. Choosing to identify with and join Sinn Fenn may not laudable, but in effect these new recruits are changing Sinn Fenn from within, replacing violent thugs with people seeking achieving goals though politic action. Trust them or not, but one can still recognize the changes that have occurred. Fail to do so and one dooms both sides to an dystopian future that just extends the evils of the past hundreds of years. |
11th February 2020, 03:58 PM | #80 |
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The IRA with which Sinn Fein is associated. Recognizing that even that "official" IRA was/is composed of a spectrum of different subgroups, such as the provos. It is Sinn Fenn that is the topic of this thread.
That IRA has engaged in twenty years of a clear and documented pullback from violence since the Good Friday accords. If this was a tactical move then it has been a long one and certainly worth responding to appropriately to encourage its solidification and lengthy extension into the future. Perhaps if this "tactical move" is recognized and 'exploited" properly "they" will not go back to their old ways. Especially since so many of the most violent "they" are dead or very old farts. |
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