Continuation Brexit: Now What? 9 Below Zero

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Darat

Wording is sometimes important, remember we weren’t locked out of it, we decided we didn’t want to be part of it.

Are you sure it wasn’t just a communications problem?

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Even if you don't, base 12 has some conveniences. Division by 2, 3, 4 and 6 becomes very easy. Base 10 has easy division by 2 and 5. The former is a more useful set than the latter.

That’s why base 60 is so much better.

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by Darat

Wording is sometimes important, remember we weren’t locked out of it, we decided we didn’t want to be part of it.

You say Galileo I say Galilei, as does The Frontier.

"The UK was also blocked from working and bidding on sensitive parts of the system, much to the outrage of politicos taken by surprise at the prospect of not having access to a system into which Blighty had poured funds.

Toys were subsequently flung from the pram and the UK stomped off, clutching its bat and ball and saying, in a wavery playground "Star Trek is better than Star Wars" voice that it would build its own version. So there."

Extract from the EU document (PDF) that caused the dummy spit (my highlight).

F. Space
135. The envisaged partnership should provide for the possibility for the United Kingdom
to have access to the Galileo Public Regulated Service (PRS) through provisions on
PRS in accordance with Union law. Such provisions on PRS should allow the United
Kingdom to secure access to the most resilient service of Galileo for sensitive
applications in the context of Union operations or ad hoc operations involving its Member States.

136. Since access to the development of technologies is excluded, access to the Galileo PRS should be conditional upon:
a) ensuring that the United Kingdom’s use of PRS does not contravene the essential security interests of the Union and its Member States;
b) the United Kingdom participating in the non-security related activities of the Union's Space Programme as foreseen in
Section 2(A) of Part I on participation in Union programmes, unless and until the United Kingdom grants the Union access to the envisaged United Kingdom Global Navigation Satellite System.

G. Development cooperation

137. The envisaged partnership should enable the United Kingdom to contribute to the Union’s instruments and mechanisms in full respect of the autonomy of the Union in the programming of development priorities. The envisaged partnership should promote sustainable development and the eradication of poverty. In this regard, the partnership should provide for the continued support of the Parties for the
implementation of the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals and European Consensus on Development.

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by SezMe

Paywalled. But I get the idea. Thanks.

Sorry about that - people quoting paywalled articles pisses me off too.
I didn't realise this was restricted to a single hit.

I'm fairly sure this is the article someone has posted on Reddit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/brexit/comm...wrangling_and/

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

There's more to Britain than Norfolk.

“Alex Salmond will be made First Minister for Norwich, so he can get to understand what being ignored by the rest of the country is really like.” (Al Murray)

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Even if you don't, base 12 has some conveniences. Division by 2, 3, 4 and 6 becomes very easy. Base 10 has easy division by 2 and 5. The former is a more useful set than the latter.

I was part of the genration that learnt both as the UK transitioned. I can assure you there was no benefit in the pre decimal systems we had. They were overly complicated, easy to make mistakes and so on.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Yeah? And?

I don't see anything inconsistent about that.

Well, the Govt did blame the EU for 'freezing out' the UK when Brexit came along even though it was a regulation the UK insisted on.

[Captain_Swoop]

Number 10 claiming this morning that it was always clear there would have to be checks at the border along the Irish Sea.

So they lied back in November?

[Wudang]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Number 10 claiming this morning that it was always clear there would have to be checks at the border along the Irish Sea.

So they lied back in November?

'The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.'

[P.J. Denyer]

Originally Posted by Wudang

'The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.'

The only bit Orwell got wrong was that Smith should have been working on the Telegraph rather than the Times.

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Well, the Govt did blame the EU for 'freezing out' the UK when Brexit came along even though it was a regulation the UK insisted on.

It was always clear they were lying about customs checks, if you believed obvious lies that’s your fault and no one else’s!

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by Darat

Wording is sometimes important, remember we weren’t locked out of it, we decided we didn’t want to be part of it.

"You can't fire me! I quit!"

[Captain_Swoop]

Priti Patel said "We’re ending free movement to open Britain up to the world. It will ensure people can come to our country based on what they have to offer, not where they come from."

Obviously nurses and care workers have nothing to offer.

[P.J. Denyer]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Priti Patel said "We’re ending free movement to open Britain up to the world. It will ensure people can come to our country based on what they have to offer, not where they come from."

Obviously nurses and care workers have nothing to offer.

It's fine to vote for a party that froze nurses pay and wants to keep them out of the country so long as you go outside and clap for them for a couple of minutes. It's like going to confession on Sunday, what you actually do is forgiven so long as you go tyrough the motions.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Priti Patel said "We’re ending free movement to open Britain up to the world. It will ensure people can come to our country based on what they have to offer, not where they come from."

Obviously nurses and care workers have nothing to offer.

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

It's fine to vote for a party that froze nurses pay and wants to keep them out of the country so long as you go outside and clap for them for a couple of minutes. It's like going to confession on Sunday, what you actually do is forgiven so long as you go tyrough the motions.

It was telling that when Matt Hancock was asked about how the incredibly important and dedicated NHS staff would be rewarded for their sacrifice during the "war against Coronavirus" (all the preceding, my take on the question) he said that they had already received a substantial pay rise.

Of course that ignores the fact that the pay rise in question was supposed to be a "catch up" due to the austerity pay freeze.

NHS personnel only matter when Tory politicians actually require them for medical or publicity reasons

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Bring back 12 pence = 1 shilling, 20 shillings = 1 pound. 21 shillings in a guinea.

Don't knock it.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Even if you don't, base 12 has some conveniences. Division by 2, 3, 4 and 6 becomes very easy. Base 10 has easy division by 2 and 5. The former is a more useful set than the latter.

The duodecimal system also fits in elegantly with the sexagesimal system. Even geographical coordinates have gone decimal in the belief it is simpler.

Not so!

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Mojo

That’s why base 60 is so much better.

Ah ninjaed.

[Wudang]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Don't knock it.

I can knock it. I remember farthings and half-crowns quite clearly and decimalization. An old penny is worth 0.4 pence and effectively worthless. The facility of having more factors is less obvious when rounding takes the value to 0.

[wobs]

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

There was a source book for the Call of Cthulhu rpg that explained pre decimal coinage in detail. It took about half a page, then finished with the sentence "The British resisted decimalisation on the grounds it was considered too complicated".

You're thinking of a footnote in Good Omens

[Captain_Swoop]

Priti Patel has announced that if you earn under £25,600 you're basically unskilled, a second class citizen and of no value to society.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Priti Patel has announced that if you earn under £25,600 you're basically unskilled, a second class citizen and of no value to society.

No-one she knows socially earns that little (unless of course they don't have to work) so that makes sense.

It's a bit of a smack in the face of all those "essential workers" the Conservatives have been asking us to applaud every Thursday. Of course applause costs nothing, it's like giving someone a snappier job title instead of a pay rise

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Priti Patel has announced that if you earn under £25,600 you're basically unskilled, a second class citizen and of no value to society.

This view of the world seems to be purely left wing.

If you are only commanding £25,600, society has already passed what ever judgement there may be to pass. By definition the role is not one with a labour shortage and a high demand for the work to be performed. If you are going to have any sort of needs based immigration model, surely people with skills that are not in demand are the people not to bring in. There is no moral judgement about your worth as a person, or your skill level or anything else.

[P.J. Denyer]

Originally Posted by wobs

You're thinking of a footnote in Good Omens

No, I'm not. there may be a similar footnote there, but I am definitely remembering the section in "Green & Pleasant Land" which I read some time before "Good Omens" was written.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

This view of the world seems to be purely left wing.

If you are only commanding £25,600, society has already passed what ever judgement there may be to pass. By definition the role is not one with a labour shortage and a high demand for the work to be performed. If you are going to have any sort of needs based immigration model, surely people with skills that are not in demand are the people not to bring in. There is no moral judgement about your worth as a person, or your skill level or anything else.

Yet they are.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293061

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Mojo

That’s why base 60 is so much better.

Except numeral representation complexity becomes cumbersome in such a large base.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Except numeral representation complexity becomes cumbersome in such a large base.

That’s OK, it are all belong to us.

[quadraginta]

Originally Posted by Vixen

The duodecimal system also fits in elegantly with the sexagesimal system. Even geographical coordinates have gone decimal in the belief it is simpler.

Not so!

Why is it not so?

[Tolls]

Originally Posted by Darat

Yet they are.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293061

Quite.
There are plenty of jobs that the employer cannot afford to pay high wages, and the current wages are not sufficient for the local workforce to want to do the job (either by the nature of the job, or how things like benefits work, or a mix).

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Darat

Yet they are.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293061

They are paying below market rate in the UK. If we want to suppress the wages of low skilled labor in the UK using foreign labour then absolutely this cap is bad.

[Tolls]

Nope.
They'd go bust if they paid the market rate. Foreign imports (where labour is cheaper) would simply end the business.

That's the problem.

Of course we could always suppress the market rate by removing benefits...

[Wudang]

https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/brexit-a...554452.article

Quote:

There are no official figures for average wage rates, but feedback from the industry suggests the average wage for fruit pickers typically sits at or just above the national living wage (currently £7.50), with opportunities to earn more dependent on hours worked and productivity bonuses.

Laurence Olins, chairman of British Summer Fruits, puts average pay at between £8.50 and £10.00 depending on speed of work, while Steven Munday, CEO of trade body British Apples & Pears, says in his sector it is on average £300 and £350 a week based on 40 hours worked at £7.50 to £9. “Many can earn more by doing up to 60 hours or piece work. We have a good number earning over £500 per week on a 48-hour week,” he adds. Supervisors also earn more.

Note: these guys will want to make it look attractive so pinch of salt.

Quote:

Concerns about how seasonal work affects benefits payments also loom large. “UK workers would lose their social benefits payments whilst working and would need to reapply for them, which is both arduous and time consuming,” says Olins.

The last one rings true. I grew up in a seaside town that relied on seasonal tourism. Locals were reluctant to take summer work as it was indeed " arduous and time consuming" to get back on benefits.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Wudang

I can knock it. I remember farthings and half-crowns quite clearly and decimalization. An old penny is worth 0.4 pence and effectively worthless. The facility of having more factors is less obvious when rounding takes the value to 0.

No need to over-think things.


Jacob Rees-Mogg mentioned standing six feet apart on PMQs. Now we all understand what six feet is without a second thought.

Two metres, and you have to think, ah, two yards or two times three feet, to get the idea.

Six feet is a measure people can immediately visualise, whether it be height of fence, height of man, length of win, or paced steps across a room to calculate apx area.

It is all very simple!

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by quadraginta

Why is it not so?

Because you end up with a long string of decimal points!

Imagine if time was decimalised. 12:37 would become a nightmare 12.616666666666.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

This view of the world seems to be purely left wing.

If you are only commanding £25,600, society has already passed what ever judgement there may be to pass. By definition the role is not one with a labour shortage and a high demand for the work to be performed. If you are going to have any sort of needs based immigration model, surely people with skills that are not in demand are the people not to bring in. There is no moral judgement about your worth as a person, or your skill level or anything else.

Your salary is not a measure of your worth. There are plenty of highly educated and vocationally qualified people earning less than that.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Your salary is not a measure of your worth. There are plenty of highly educated and vocationally qualified people earning less than that.

Depends what you mean by "worth". I don't think salary is meant to imply any notion of worth beyond how much people are willing to pay for what ever it is that you are doing.

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Originally Posted by Vixen

No need to over-think things.


Jacob Rees-Mogg mentioned standing six feet apart on PMQs. Now we all understand what six feet is without a second thought.

Two metres, and you have to think, ah, two yards or two times three feet, to get the idea.

Six feet is a measure people can immediately visualise, whether it be height of fence, height of man, length of win, or paced steps across a room to calculate apx area.

It is all very simple!

I'm not sure if you're being serious...

..but this is only because you grew up with that scale. If you'd grown up with the metric scale you'd have no problem visualising 2 metres (which is more like 61/2 feet than 6 feet by the way). After all, if you watch athletics I suspect you have absolutely no problem visualising 100m*, 200m or 400m....

*I'd lay odds you don't think "Hmm that looks about 328 feet".

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen

I'm not sure if you're being serious...

..but this is only because you grew up with that scale. If you'd grown up with the metric scale you'd have no problem visualising 2 metres (which is more like 61/2 feet than 6 feet by the way). After all, if you watch athletics I suspect you have absolutely no problem visualising 100m*, 200m or 400m....

*I'd lay odds you don't think "Hmm that looks about 328 feet".

I have zero problems calculating the metric scale. Although the four-minute mile sounds so much less romantic when put in metres. Who cares about an odd couple of inches or centimetres when judging social distance?

[Earthborn]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Except numeral representation complexity becomes cumbersome in such a large base.

Cuneiform numerals are super simple.

Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen

If you'd grown up with the metric scale you'd have no problem visualising 2 metres

Visualising any specific distance is quite hard for most people, even if they grew up with learning about them in school.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

No need to over-think things.


Jacob Rees-Mogg mentioned standing six feet apart on PMQs. Now we all understand what six feet is without a second thought.

Two metres, and you have to think, ah, two yards or two times three feet, to get the idea.

Six feet is a measure people can immediately visualise, whether it be height of fence, height of man, length of win, or paced steps across a room to calculate apx area.

It is all very simple!

Are you a Victorian?