IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Economics, Business and Finance
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags bitcoin , cryptocurrency , education , fun

Reply
Old 29th May 2021, 08:22 AM   #201
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 18,009
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
I should have thought it was obvious, what I meant? No?
No, it's not obvious. None of the points that you list indicate any sort of "scam" or "fraud" or "deception".

This is just a crypto that had a security flaw (probably the reason it isn't worth anything now). Other cryptos might also have security flaws. The digital asset world is still pretty much the wild wild west. If you are going to risk money on them then remember that "risk" is the operative word.

That said, cryptos like bitcoin or ethereum seem to have stood the test of time and similar security flaws don't appear to have manifested in them. That doesn't mean that they are guaranteed to be secure forever (imagine if somebody managed to reverse engineer the SHA256 algorithm).

So cryptos aren't "evil" or "witchcrafty" or any of the other horrible sounding words that you want to apply. They are just digital assets with no guaranteed value whatsoever.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2021, 10:56 AM   #202
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,948
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No, it's not obvious. None of the points that you list indicate any sort of "scam" or "fraud" or "deception".

That's a surprising POV. Clearly the people who'd invested (invested time, effort, infrastructure, perhaps money) in ROI-coins did not, initially, know about what the developers had done. That it was deception, there can be no doubt about that, at all. That is why OP was referring to those developers having gone "rogue".

Whether that legally qualifies as "fraud" is something I was wondering. That legal question is an interesting one, which is why I brought it up in my last post. And regardless of the legality, that it was, loosely speaking (like a said in that post) a fraud on the investors in ROI-coin who, clearly, had not known about this, again seems pretty much straightforward.


And, regardless of whether this issue is "obvious" or not, the question that I'd asked in very brief earlier, and that I've clearly spelt out and even enumerated in my last post, I'm sure they'd be of importance to people who are interested in crypto. It is to me, even though I'm only casually interested; and I'm sure the answers to those questions would be even more important to people who are more invested than I am in cryptocurrencies in general and ROI in particular.


Quote:
This is just a crypto that had a security flaw (probably the reason it isn't worth anything now). Other cryptos might also have security flaws. The digital asset world is still pretty much the wild wild west. If you are going to risk money on them then remember that "risk" is the operative word.

That's right. Those questions of mine were an attempt to probe deeper into that particular flaw, and to better understand the nature of that risk.


Quote:
That said, cryptos like bitcoin or ethereum seem to have stood the test of time and similar security flaws don't appear to have manifested in them. That doesn't mean that they are guaranteed to be secure forever (imagine if somebody managed to reverse engineer the SHA256 algorithm).

Thus far, yes. Whether we can understand the probability of what happened to ROI happening to other cryptos, like BTC and ethereum, et al, and indeed all over again to ROI itself, is what I wanted to understand.


Quote:
So cryptos aren't "evil" or "witchcrafty" or any of the other horrible sounding words that you want to apply.

Eh what? I want to apply horrible sounding words like "evil" and "witchcrafty" to cryptos? Really? Are you sure you're feeling quite well?


Quote:
They are just digital assets with no guaranteed value whatsoever.

Obviously.

That observation is something of a non sequitur, though. Because their value derives from the value others would put in them. And that latter can be deeply influenced by the possibility of their developers pulling a ROI-style scam / stunt / fraud / deception / call-it-what-you-will on them. And to that extent, understanding the nature of that ROI stunt, and therefore the probability of another such stunt in ROI itself or in some other crypto becomes important, and interesting, to those of us who are interested in cryptos (whether casually, like me, or for those with greater involvement in them than just a casual and purely academic interest).
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2021, 05:51 PM   #203
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 18,009
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
That's right. Those questions of mine were an attempt to probe deeper into that particular flaw, and to better understand the nature of that risk.
If you couch your queries in terms of "fraud" and "deception" then you are doing more than just asking questions, you are pushing an agenda. This is especially so if you try to rope in bitcoin to ROI even though the bitcoin software is open source and all of the evidence indicates that the software is NOT fraudulent.

Sure, anything can happen with a new startup crypto and one would be well advised to not sink any money into it especially if the software is not open source. But tarring all cryptos with the same brush reeks of paranoia.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2021, 06:17 PM   #204
ChrisBFRPKY
Illuminator
 
ChrisBFRPKY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,807
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
All of you who're doing this ROI thing, if you're treating this purely and wholly as a learning exercise, with not even the slightest possibility, in your minds, of this actually amounting to any real worth, then that's fine. But otherwise, I would imagine that it becomes imperative that you figure out the exact nature of the fraud --- would it be even illegal, incidentally, is there an actual contract in that thing? --- perpetrated by the developers that went rogue, so that you can in turn figure out whether the expectation of future gains is merely a very long shot or an impossible pipe dream.

ChrisBFRPKY, would you know the technicalities of that deception, or have links to people writing about or discussing it? For instance, can you be sure it was a one-time thing, or might another such discovery be made some time in the future, about another stash of ROI-coins pilfered away?

-------

It seems to me that whether a new crypto, or for that matter an already-in-use crypto, might be open to this kind of fraud, should be an over-ridingly important factor for people investing in them. (I'm using the word "fraud", and for that matter "pilfer", very loosely here, because like I said I'm not sure if this actually amounts to illegality.)

What about BTC, for instance? Is it at all possible that people find out one fine day that something like this might have happened with BTC?
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
I should have thought it was obvious, what I meant? No? Okay, let me spell it out then:

ChrisBFRKY said, in this post, that "One of the developers for this coin encoded a way to receive millions of coins he should not have been able to receive. I believe they're still trying to determine a way to save the project by using a hard fork, and getting rid of the ill-gotten coins but it does not look promising at this time. However that could change."

In that context :

(1) Given that that kind of thing happened once, and at the outset went undetected, might something like that happen yet again (or be found yet again to have already happened), for this particular coin?

(2) Ditto for other cryptocurrencies, including BTC.

(3) For those who are equipped to understand the technicalities of this kind of thing, is there any way to study the code and make sure that there is no such risk for some particular crypto?

(4) The OP himself, who's walking you all through this, while clearly he's using this as a learning tool, has himself said that he sees some possibility, even if small, of ROI again being worth something. It seemed to me that for him, and for those of you who might share with him a hope, however small, of ROI being worth something someday, a detailed investigation and a detailed understanding of this would be important.

(5) Ditto those who invest time and money on any other cryptocurrency, including BTC. ("Investing", by buying for speculating, and/or hodling, and/or investing time and money and infrastructure in mining).

(6) I was also wondering if what the "rogue" developers did here, might actually amount to illegality? And if developers of one or more other cryptos, BTC included, are found to have done something like this, might that also actually amount to any actual illegality? It would, if there's any contractual understanding here, if only implicit, that might hold up in a court of law: otherwise, if no such contract can be established, then there's nothing the law can do to these rogue developers, or any other rogue developers of any other crypto. This too should, I would imagine, be a factor that people who are investing time and energy, not to mention money, in cryptos, would want to ascertain clearly.


-------


Incidentally, why the suddenly and inexplicably aggressive tone? Are you feeling quite well?
Sorry for the delay I'm away for a few days but wanted to pop in to check on the thread.

To answer what went wrong with this coin: The ROI coin had a design team in the beginning and some premined coins. This is not unusual for any coin. There was a wallet that was considered excessive for a premine and they announced that wallet would not be allowed to stake and the coins in it would be given out for promotions or burned.

It ended up the wallet WAS allowed to stake. It was term deposited for a year at the original 561% interest. Turning millions of coins into billions.

The team member responsible was relieved from the project but still had control over the coins. The current task has been figuring out how to nullify those coins without hurting everyone else. I noticed recently there was a new wallet version available which may have solved the issue.


NEWS: It looks like there is some activity with ROI coin. According to the website here: https://roi-coin.com/

ROI coin has been added to a couple of coinmarket sites and one trading exchange.

Looks like the second wind WILL happen. Congrats to all who participated and keep an eye on the ROI coin website for updates.
ChrisBFRPKY is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2021, 06:32 AM   #205
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,948
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you couch your queries in terms of "fraud" and "deception" then you are doing more than just asking questions, you are pushing an agenda.

What on earth are you rambling on about? What those rogue developers did was, quite literally, deception. And it also was, quite literally, fraud -- in essence, if not necessarily per legality. (Although it may have been that as well, I don’t know. Whether it was illegal, or not, is a valid question, and an interesting one.)


Quote:
This is especially so if you try to rope in bitcoin to ROI even though the bitcoin software is open source and all of the evidence indicates that the software is NOT fraudulent.

What utter nonsense. Why on earth would one not want to examine whether BTC might be susceptible to the same kind of thing?

If the evidence indicates that what happened with ROI could not happen with BTC, fine. That’s the answer I’m looking for, then, along with a description of that evidence.

It’s totally weird that you should equate my asking about BTC with my demonizing BTC. And it is equally weird that that should get you all butthurt, as if you were the sworn protector of the fair name of BTC. Stop acting weird.


Quote:
Sure, anything can happen with a new startup crypto and one would be well advised to not sink any money into it especially if the software is not open source. But tarring all cryptos with the same brush reeks of paranoia.

No one’s tarring and feathering either you or your precious cryptos. This thread is about understanding cryptos, and I’m trying to do just that here. There’s a great deal I don’t know about cryptos, that it is possible you do: but it is precisely because I don’t know some things, and because I know that I don’t know those things, that I’m asking what I’m asking. That seems pretty much straightforward, and it’s bizarre that this should need to be spelt out like this.

If you have answers, and are willing to furnish them, then that will be appreciated, absolutely. But spare me your hallucinations about what you imagine is my nefarious agenda, would you? This apparent protectiveness of yours over any questioning of cryptocurrencies, it’s bizarre, and not particularly entertaining.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2021, 06:37 AM   #206
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,948
Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Sorry for the delay I'm away for a few days but wanted to pop in to check on the thread.

Whenever convenient, Chris. No rush.


Quote:
To answer what went wrong with this coin: The ROI coin had a design team in the beginning and some premined coins. This is not unusual for any coin. There was a wallet that was considered excessive for a premine and they announced that wallet would not be allowed to stake and the coins in it would be given out for promotions or burned.

It ended up the wallet WAS allowed to stake. It was term deposited for a year at the original 561% interest. Turning millions of coins into billions.

The team member responsible was relieved from the project but still had control over the coins. The current task has been figuring out how to nullify those coins without hurting everyone else. I noticed recently there was a new wallet version available which may have solved the issue.

And might this kind of thing be an issue, potentially, with other cryptocurrencies, that you know of? What about BTC, for instance?


Also, does this sort of thing constitute an actual illegality? Or are the rogue developers safe from the law? Because if the law is not part of the picture here, then that’s one less deterrent for anyone else who might have a mind to try this sort of thing.


Quote:
NEWS: It looks like there is some activity with ROI coin. According to the website here: https://roi-coin.com/

ROI coin has been added to a couple of coinmarket sites and one trading exchange.

Looks like the second wind WILL happen. Congrats to all who participated and keep an eye on the ROI coin website for updates.

Good for you, if that happens. And for the rest of you who’re doing this thing. Good luck!
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th May 2021, 08:00 PM   #207
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 18,009
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
No one’s tarring and feathering either you or your precious cryptos.
A clear sign of an untenable position is when you have to accuse an arguer of an emotional investment instead of dealing with their argument.

You have been told several times that bitcoin can't have the same security flaw as ROI coint (or as you call it, "fraud"). You have also been told why. For one thing there are no pre-mined bitcoins.

Marketing issues are far more likely to see the demise of a startup crypto (or even an established crypto) than purposefully built in security flaws.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

Last edited by psionl0; 30th May 2021 at 08:03 PM.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st May 2021, 03:51 AM   #208
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16,116
Looks like the Wallet App won't let you mine anymore if you have accumulated 12,000 unverified coins.
at least for me.
__________________
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
-Anne Lamott
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st May 2021, 06:43 AM   #209
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,948
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
A clear sign of an untenable position is when you have to accuse an arguer of an emotional investment instead of dealing with their argument.

Good, congratulations, I'm glad self-realization has finally dawned on you. It is you who've been accusing others, who've simply been raising entirely valid issues and questions, and accusing them entirely inexplicably and context-free, of things like "paranoia", as well as such unbelievable and literally crazy mind-reading, like ... let's go back and see, what was it? ... yes, claiming that they want to apply horrible sounding words like "evil" and "witchcrafty" to cryptos. Seriously, do you think those are the comments of someone who is 100% in control of their faculties?


Quote:
You have been told several times that bitcoin can't have the same security flaw as ROI coint (or as you call it, "fraud"). You have also been told why. For one thing there are no pre-mined bitcoins.

Okay, so there are no pre-mined BTC, and therefore BTC is not susceptible to that particular stunt. That sounds reasonable.

This is the first time you've said this. Assuming you're right, and no one corrects you on this, then sure, that is indeed the answer to one of the questions I'd asked, and that you could well have factually given directly, instead of your leveling those borderline insane accusations at me of wanting to demonize cryptos. But hey, thanks for that input, absolutely, despite the cocktail of entirely inexplicable craziness that that input came mixed with.


Quote:
Marketing issues are far more likely to see the demise of a startup crypto (or even an established crypto) than purposefully built in security flaws.

Depends on the crypto.

Take ROI. ROI was done in not by marketing issues, but by technical flaws (firstly, in having these pre-mined thingies; secondly, having those developer dudes declare that they wouldn't be be "staked", and others seemingly not having the wherewithal to themselves ascertain, by directly studying the code, whether that is actually the case, that is, whether they actually have been staked or not; and thirdly, and following on the above two, by the developers having gone rogue, and pulled a fraud on the rest by actually "staking" those pre-mined coins after all.)

It is clear that any other cryptocurrencies, that also might have pre-mined coins, might also be open to this kind of fraud. So that knowing whether some particular crypto does have pre-mined coins probably is a very important piece of information for investors. Further, if there are indeed pre-mined coins for some crypto, then is it possible to look at the code and ascertain directly whether or not they've been "staked"? That too seems to be a valid question for investors. And finally, is the kind of fraud pulled by the ROI rogue developers legally actionable? That also would be an important question to answer, I should think, because if it is legally actionable, then that provides another layer of deterrence (not an impenetrable one, though, obviously) that will go some way in deterring other developers of other cryptos from pulling the same kind of stunt.

Last edited by Chanakya; 31st May 2021 at 06:46 AM.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st May 2021, 08:21 AM   #210
ChrisBFRPKY
Illuminator
 
ChrisBFRPKY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,807
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Whenever convenient, Chris. No rush.





And might this kind of thing be an issue, potentially, with other cryptocurrencies, that you know of? What about BTC, for instance?


Also, does this sort of thing constitute an actual illegality? Or are the rogue developers safe from the law? Because if the law is not part of the picture here, then that’s one less deterrent for anyone else who might have a mind to try this sort of thing.





Good for you, if that happens. And for the rest of you who’re doing this thing. Good luck!
Dishonesty is always an issue with any investment. There will always be risks no matter what you choose to invest into, either Cryptocurrencies or the Stock Market. Trust is not a part of investing in my view. My first question is always "OK, how could I be screwed out of my investment?" Unfortunately one has to entertain paranoid thoughts and concerns as a routine. I have been and continue to be mostly as a hobby a Crypto miner. My investment into new coins was usually mining time and electricity without a direct investment of cash into their projects. The reason being is that most fail. Mining new coins at startup I would acquire a small bag of each coin. Some failed some did not.

There have been multitudes of new Crypto startups that were designed as money making schemes. Because of these there are several questions many enthusiasts now insist upon. "Is this coin mineable?" , "Was there a pre-mine of this coin?", "If so, how many and what is the wallet address?" "Show me." Even then sometimes it doesn't work out to your advantage as was the case with ROI coin as dishonest people tend to lie.

Could this happen with Bitcoin? No. Different coin with different features. The worst case scenario for Bitcoin would be if Satoshi Nakamoto decided to sell all his/her Bitcoin at one time. That would likely crash the market for a time. But even then the market would eventually recover.

I don't know if ROI coin will be revived or not. There have been a few recent developments and I do hope it gets a second wind but hope is a fragile thing.
ChrisBFRPKY is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st May 2021, 08:39 AM   #211
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 18,009
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Good, congratulations, I'm glad self-realization has finally dawned on you.
It's a pity it hasn't dawned on you. One case of theft of one crypto and you haven't stopped using the word "fraud" ever since. Suddenly all cryptos have fraud built in to them.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st May 2021, 10:08 AM   #212
Tippit
Illuminator
 
Tippit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,501
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It's a pity it hasn't dawned on you. One case of theft of one crypto and you haven't stopped using the word "fraud" ever since. Suddenly all cryptos have fraud built in to them.

Wait until he finds out that they can be stolen by exchanges?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
"Allowing human beings to create unlimited money out of nothing inevitably results in the most monstrous of conspiracies."
Tippit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st May 2021, 10:40 AM   #213
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,948
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It's a pity it hasn't dawned on you. One case of theft of one crypto and you haven't stopped using the word "fraud" ever since. Suddenly all cryptos have fraud built in to them.

What hasn't dawned on me? It's you that has been talking drivel here all through.

As for using the word "fraud", I'd used it just to bring up my original question/concern/issue. It was when you started posting your weird protests, claiming not to know what kind of fraud and deception I was referring to, and imagining that I'm out defame and demonize all cryptos --- and not to forget that literally demented rant about how you hysterically imagine that I apparently want to use horrible sounding words like "witchcrafty" and "evil" for all cryptos! --- in fact that bit was so jaw-dropping a comment that if I did signatures, which I don't, then I'd have surely put it in, as example of the random craziness that one is liable to encounter on the internet --- it was only then that I pointed out you the obvious, that fraud and deception were facts in this case. You wouldn't stop protesting, so that I had to point this out to you more than once. That isn't "haven't stopped using the word "fraud" ever since" to anyone who might be able to think coherently, which clearly you aren't able to when it comes to this.

As for the highlighted, that's some pretty weird straw that you keep drawing out, non-stop, from within your backside.

This particular flaw, this particular, yes, fraud, that has happened with ROI, to ask whether whether and which other cryptos might also be susceptible to that kind of thing, and to ask whether there is some way to look at the code to directly ascertain if pre-mined coins may have been staked or not, and to ask if any of this admits of legal redress, are clearly entirely reasonable, even important, questions. That you should parse this clearly worded question/position, which incidentally I'm now having to repeat for the second or third time for you, as my apparently having said that, as you put it, "Suddenly all cryptos have fraud built in to them", speaks to how entirely lacking in reading comprehension you appear to be, and how entirely fogged and entirely lacking in coherence your own thinking is, at least when it comes to this issue.

Now, if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to stop exchanging these surreal inanities with you. You seem to revel in this sort of thing, but it wasn't particularly fun for me even to begin with, and it's starting to actually jar on me now.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st May 2021, 10:43 AM   #214
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,948
Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Wait until he finds out that they can be stolen by exchanges?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Shhh, don't you say anything remotely critical of cryptocurrencies in his presence, or he'll have yet another fit, and we'll all be treated to another parade of wild strawmen.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st May 2021, 01:37 PM   #215
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,948
Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Dishonesty is always an issue with any investment. There will always be risks no matter what you choose to invest into, either Cryptocurrencies or the Stock Market. Trust is not a part of investing in my view. My first question is always "OK, how could I be screwed out of my investment?" Unfortunately one has to entertain paranoid thoughts and concerns as a routine. I have been and continue to be mostly as a hobby a Crypto miner. My investment into new coins was usually mining time and electricity without a direct investment of cash into their projects. The reason being is that most fail. Mining new coins at startup I would acquire a small bag of each coin. Some failed some did not.

There have been multitudes of new Crypto startups that were designed as money making schemes. Because of these there are several questions many enthusiasts now insist upon. "Is this coin mineable?" , "Was there a pre-mine of this coin?", "If so, how many and what is the wallet address?" "Show me." Even then sometimes it doesn't work out to your advantage as was the case with ROI coin as dishonest people tend to lie.

Could this happen with Bitcoin? No. Different coin with different features. The worst case scenario for Bitcoin would be if Satoshi Nakamoto decided to sell all his/her Bitcoin at one time. That would likely crash the market for a time. But even then the market would eventually recover.

I don't know if ROI coin will be revived or not. There have been a few recent developments and I do hope it gets a second wind but hope is a fragile thing.

OK, I understand. psionl0 clarified this a few posts up: BTC did not come with pre-mined coins, so no question of this particular screw-up being replicated there. That much seems straightforward, and reasonable.

---

Incidentally, is there any technical and entirely innocent reason why a developer might have pre-mined coins of some crypto? Because if there isn't, then the very presence of pre-mined coins is a clear red flag.

---

As for ROI reviving, one part of it is clearly the investor sentiment thing. But that apart, has the technical part of it actually been resolved? The developers had pre-mined those coins, then earned humongous returns on them despite promising not to. So what happens to those coins now?

I mean, I guess you need to figure out if the technical issue is over and done with now. Because if it is, then it is just a question of investor sentiment. So that, while obviously there's no guarantee, but if luck's one your side, then it may well revive. But that's only provided the premined coins are no longer a factor, not otherwise.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st May 2021, 06:41 PM   #216
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 18,009
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
OK, I understand. psionl0 clarified this a few posts up: BTC did not come with pre-mined coins, so no question of this particular screw-up being replicated there. That much seems straightforward, and reasonable.
I also pointed out earlier that cryptos like bitcoin are open source software. That means that anybody can examine the code. If there were any flaws/backdoors in the code then they would have been discovered/exploited long ago. Any suspicious activity would also be recorded in the blockchain (that is how we know that Satoshi Nakamoto mined a lot of the coins for himself while the mining was cheap).

You really need to stop this soapboxing. You haven't come across some blinding revelation. It is always possible that the designer of a new crypto might include some nefarious code or inadvertently write flaws that others can exploit (I have already said as much). That is why the code should be open source and you should avoid investing money into it at least during the initial phases when security flaws might manifest themselves.

As for pre-mining, that is not an automatic disqualifier for a crypto. You need to do your homework though. You need to know how many coins have been pre-mined, what the policy is for their release and be able to assess the risk and consequences of a policy breach.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

Last edited by psionl0; 31st May 2021 at 07:57 PM.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st May 2021, 08:56 PM   #217
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 18,009
Some final thoughts.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Looks like mining is no longer working.
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Looks like the Wallet App won't let you mine anymore if you have accumulated 12,000 unverified coins.
at least for me.
I just successfully mined 3 blocks and mined another couple a few days ago. I guess that having a computer that is powerful enough to cope with Windows 10 helps.

This makes 4 cryptocurrencies that I have toyed with: Bitcoin, NXT, Ripple and ROI coin. Unfortunately, my early attempts to mine bitcoin were unsuccessful and NXT being a proof of stake algorithm was also unsuccessful since I didn't have any NXT coins to stake. I have acquired some XRP and ROI has proved to be an easy coin to mine.

I'm not all that impressed with the ROI interface. It is not particularly intuitive and it took me a while to learn how to drive it. I especially don't like that it doesn't have an activity statement. The transaction list should read like a bank statement but it doesn't.

ROI has the same drawbacks as most cryptos. It uses proof of work which is a real energy killer and it is designed to be hoarded rather than spent. This is doubly so because you can lock up your currency and receive interest on it.

Proof of stake seems to be proven to the extent that Ethereum has decided to switch over to it. This is a much better way to run a mining/validation process.

I believe that demurrage should replace transaction fees. This would give an incentive to spend the currency. Of course one should be able to deposit some currency into a "holding" wallet (for a fee) to avoid the demurrage. If the block reward is constant then eventually when enough currency has been mined, the demurrage would be the same as the block reward and the supply of the crypto would be in a steady state. If any cryptos were lost (due to loss of wallet) then that wouldn't have a long term impact on the supply since demurrage would devalue the loss.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st June 2021, 06:28 AM   #218
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,948
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I also pointed out earlier that cryptos like bitcoin are open source software. That means that anybody can examine the code. If there were any flaws/backdoors in the code then they would have been discovered/exploited long ago. Any suspicious activity would also be recorded in the blockchain (that is how we know that Satoshi Nakamoto mined a lot of the coins for himself while the mining was cheap).

Right, agreed. Investing in open-source cryptos is safe, in this sense, provided one has (or one knows for a fact that others have) fully examined the code for any such flaws and backdoors, as you call them.


Quote:
You really need to stop this soapboxing. You haven't come across some blinding revelation.

Ah. Trying our hand at some gaslighting, are we now? There has been no soapboxing, at all, from me. The only weirdness here is wholly and fully to your account, and what I’ve done is clearly called you out every time, not letting you get away with your hysterical misrepresentations and strawmanning.

You’ve birthed some fantastic strawmen from within your backside in this thread, for reasons best known to you. There’s been a whole parade of them in this thread, and I’ve pointed these out clearly. Your straw-baby that you must be proudest of surely be the one about my wanting to call cryptos horrible names like “evil” and “witchcrafty”. That one was positively eye-wateringly hilarious, wouldn’t you agree?

And right here we have another strawman from you, where you tell me that “(I) haven’t come across some blinding revelation”. Of course I haven’t, and nor have I claimed, or at all implied, that I have. In a thread meant specifically for learning about cryptos, what I have done is raised some entirely valid questions, the answers to some of which have been forthcoming here, including from you. Where is the question of “blinding revelations”?

Clearly you’re seeing nefarious agendas — you’ve clearly accused me more than once of such — where there are none at all, and no rational reason for suspecting such. Why is that, do you think? What makes you so weirdly defensive, when it comes to cryptos?


Quote:
It is always possible that the designer of a new crypto might include some nefarious code or inadvertently write flaws that others can exploit (I have already said as much). That is why the code should be open source and you should avoid investing money into it at least during the initial phases when security flaws might manifest themselves.

Yep, going only for open source cryptos is sound advice, agreed.

Incidentally, when you say, “the code should be open source”, are you saying that people should stay away from cryptos that are not based on open source, is that your view? (And, as far as that, are all the major cryptos out in the market now open source, do you know?)

When the code isn’t open source, then that appears to me analogous with investing in privately held equity, where the due diligence required is greater, and of a somewhat different nature than when audited quarterly and annual accounts are freely available. Greater risks, but if you know your way around, then potentially greater returns. Would this analogy apply to cryptos in practice, do you think? If no, then that's the end of it; but if yes, then what might be the equivalent here, of the kind of (generally institutional) due diligence we exercise with private equity?


Quote:
As for pre-mining, that is not an automatic disqualifier for a crypto. You need to do your homework though. You need to know how many coins have been pre-mined, what the policy is for their release and be able to assess the risk and consequences of a policy breach.

There, see the whole series of very sound advice, and solutions, that’s coming in now, now that you’re applying yourself to actually addressing the points I’d raised, rather than imagining that I’m out to malign your precious cryptos (which, for the record, I’m absolutely not)? Chris has furnished most of those answers in this thread, naturally, but quite a few of them have now come from you too. Thanks for those inputs, absolutely, psionl0! One wishes you’d got to these factual answers directly without that unnecessary strawmanning and inexplicable weirdness.

As far as ascertaining the consequences of a policy breach, to repeat what I'd asked earlier: What are the consequences of a policy breach, in practice? The ROI developers, were they held accountable in any way? Does this kind of thing admit of legal redress?
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st June 2021, 07:40 AM   #219
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 18,009
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
As far as ascertaining the consequences of a policy breach, to repeat what I'd asked earlier: What are the consequences of a policy breach, in practice? The ROI developers, were they held accountable in any way? Does this kind of thing admit of legal redress?
I'm pretty sure that there are no legal consequences that would flow from any untoward design features of a crypto. They are basically unregulated (unregulatable?) software. Anything goes. I have even heard (contrary to the claims of the designer) of a crypto that had no blockchain of any sort. It was just centralized software that ran on an SQL server - the exact opposite of a decentralized cryptocurrency. AFAIK there were no legal ramifications since there are no laws about this type of thing (only potential laws on the USE of cryptocurrency).

If any consequences befall a rogue developer then it would have to come from the other developers. But ultimately, the market is the final arbiter of any cryptocurrency. It it doesn't pass the sniff test then they will stay away from it in droves.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

Last edited by psionl0; 1st June 2021 at 07:42 AM.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st June 2021, 09:59 PM   #220
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,948
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I'm pretty sure that there are no legal consequences that would flow from any untoward design features of a crypto. They are basically unregulated (unregulatable?) software. Anything goes. I have even heard (contrary to the claims of the designer) of a crypto that had no blockchain of any sort. It was just centralized software that ran on an SQL server - the exact opposite of a decentralized cryptocurrency. AFAIK there were no legal ramifications since there are no laws about this type of thing (only potential laws on the USE of cryptocurrency).

If any consequences befall a rogue developer then it would have to come from the other developers. But ultimately, the market is the final arbiter of any cryptocurrency. It it doesn't pass the sniff test then they will stay away from it in droves.

Right. So it’s caveat emptor all the way! But then that’s kind of the entire point of cryptocurrencies, I suppose. As you say, unregulated and unregulabatable, by design. Thanks for those inputs, psionl0.


(Incidentally, I did look around, myself, to see if I could find anything about the legality of this kind of thing. There's heaps of reports available, but nothing that specifically touches on this specific kind of legal question. At least nothing that 15-20 minutes of clicking around could throw up.)
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st June 2021, 10:22 PM   #221
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 18,009
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
(Incidentally, I did look around, myself, to see if I could find anything about the legality of this kind of thing. There's heaps of reports available, but nothing that specifically touches on this specific kind of legal question. At least nothing that 15-20 minutes of clicking around could throw up.)
I'm pretty sure that there is no statute governing the design of crypto currencies/ (How would they be enforced?)

OTOH if you believe that a contract you have entered into has been breached then you are always entitled to sue for the damages that you have suffered because of the breach. No doubt, the courts would hear the case even if if involved the design and use of a crypto currency.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2021, 12:07 AM   #222
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,948
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I'm pretty sure that there is no statute governing the design of crypto currencies/ (How would they be enforced?)

OTOH if you believe that a contract you have entered into has been breached then you are always entitled to sue for the damages that you have suffered because of the breach. No doubt, the courts would hear the case even if if involved the design and use of a crypto currency.

Well yes, those were my very thoughts. Which is why I'd originally asked if this very case, ROI I mean to say, might be thought of as an implicit contract. (Like Chris said, there were these pre-mined coins, and it was clearly agreed they wouldn't stake it. It was on that basis that people like Chris spent time and effort and money on infrastructure to mine ROI. Further, I don't know if any transactions actually took place, but anyone who'd bought ROI clearly would have bought it on the basis, on the assumption, that those pre-mined coins wouldn't be staked. Yet stake it they did, the developers. I'm not a legal professional, but common sense would suggest there's at least a fighting chance of showing that there's an implicit contract there, that has been breached. Which might, conceivably, open up the possibility of redressal.)

In any case, I realize there are early days. No doubt there are plenty of questions around cryptos that don't yet have clear Yes or No answers, and that will get worked out eventually over coming months and years.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2021, 12:09 PM   #223
ChrisBFRPKY
Illuminator
 
ChrisBFRPKY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,807
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
OK, I understand. psionl0 clarified this a few posts up: BTC did not come with pre-mined coins, so no question of this particular screw-up being replicated there. That much seems straightforward, and reasonable.

---

Incidentally, is there any technical and entirely innocent reason why a developer might have pre-mined coins of some crypto? Because if there isn't, then the very presence of pre-mined coins is a clear red flag.

---

As for ROI reviving, one part of it is clearly the investor sentiment thing. But that apart, has the technical part of it actually been resolved? The developers had pre-mined those coins, then earned humongous returns on them despite promising not to. So what happens to those coins now?

I mean, I guess you need to figure out if the technical issue is over and done with now. Because if it is, then it is just a question of investor sentiment. So that, while obviously there's no guarantee, but if luck's one your side, then it may well revive. But that's only provided the premined coins are no longer a factor, not otherwise.
With the proof of work coins it's common to have a premine to build the coin. The development team will normally use those coins for promotions and giveaways. Of course it's absolutely normal to expect the team to keep part of the premine coins after all, they're not building the project for good will or peace on Earth. Usually a small percentage of coins going to the dev team is acceptable and normal.
ChrisBFRPKY is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2021, 07:04 AM   #224
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,948
Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
With the proof of work coins it's common to have a premine to build the coin. The development team will normally use those coins for promotions and giveaways. Of course it's absolutely normal to expect the team to keep part of the premine coins after all, they're not building the project for good will or peace on Earth. Usually a small percentage of coins going to the dev team is acceptable and normal.

And that sounds entirely reasonable.

Like I was saying, these are early days for cryptos, kind of the wild wild west sort of thing. No doubt going forward some sort of standard, some sort of convention, will end up evolving, as far as how much of pre-mining is acceptable. Because on one hand to allow developers to merrily pre-mine away as much as they want (and by "allow", I mean by others participating in cryptos that already have very large amounts of pre-mined coins, in other words by not shunning such coins where the pre-mined amount is beyond a certain acceptable limit), and then expecting (hoping?) they'll keep their word about not staking, seems like, as you'd said earlier, an unreasonable degree of trust to ask for and to extend, and a clear recipe for disaster.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2021, 08:27 PM   #225
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 42,910
If this has been explained already, I apologize, but I'm completely confused by a few things. Can someone answer these questions in a way any idiot can understand?

1. How can you "mine coins"?

2. How does "mining" something that doesn't exist in the physical world consume vast amounts of energy?

3. Where does the high end graphics card come into play?

You mined gold by digging it out of the ground, or panning it from a stream, etc. In every case, the gold was already there, it had to be found and gathered. These "coins" don't exist, how are they created from, what appears to be nothing more than computational energy consumption? If that's the case, where's the "value" come from?
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th June 2021, 10:01 PM   #226
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 18,009
Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
If this has been explained already, I apologize, but I'm completely confused by a few things. Can someone answer these questions in a way any idiot can understand?
It's been explained many times but no harm in covering it again.

Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
1. How can you "mine coins"?
A "block" is a chunk of data that contains information. One of the pieces of information is how many coins are credited to the account of the person who "mines" the block.

Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
2. How does "mining" something that doesn't exist in the physical world consume vast amounts of energy?
In order to successfully add a block to the blockchain a miner has to create a block that has a "low enough" SHA checksum. They do this by adding a number called a "nonce" to the blockchain. If the checksum is too big then they have to guess another nonce. The smaller the required checksum, the more guesses they have to make.

Since miners all over the world are competing to get the next valid block, a miner has to "guess and check" very rapidly if they are to have a chance of winning. This is what takes up all the energy.

Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
3. Where does the high end graphics card come into play?
This is the level of hardware you need to get the guessing running as fast as it does.

Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
You mined gold by digging it out of the ground, or panning it from a stream, etc. In every case, the gold was already there, it had to be found and gathered. These "coins" don't exist, how are they created from, what appears to be nothing more than computational energy consumption? If that's the case, where's the "value" come from?
Crypto mining is not a physical process.

You need to remember that money is not a physical thing. It exists as entries in a ledger or as numbers stamped on tokens. The blockchain is just a ledger that records all of the transaction made since the block was first created in 2009.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2021, 06:12 PM   #227
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 43,906
This is all you need to know about money:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
Every time you feed a troll, God kills a kitten. Please stop killing kittens.

I used to think that Republicans were just jerks. Now I'm convinced that they're all sick, evil, twisted pieces of [first of George Carlin's seven dirty words].

"Biden's a Commie, like the Rockefellers!" -- some idiot overheard
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2021, 04:54 PM   #228
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 42,910
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It's been explained many times but no harm in covering it again.


A "block" is a chunk of data that contains information. One of the pieces of information is how many coins are credited to the account of the person who "mines" the block.


In order to successfully add a block to the blockchain a miner has to create a block that has a "low enough" SHA checksum. They do this by adding a number called a "nonce" to the blockchain. If the checksum is too big then they have to guess another nonce. The smaller the required checksum, the more guesses they have to make.

Since miners all over the world are competing to get the next valid block, a miner has to "guess and check" very rapidly if they are to have a chance of winning. This is what takes up all the energy.


This is the level of hardware you need to get the guessing running as fast as it does.


Crypto mining is not a physical process.

You need to remember that money is not a physical thing. It exists as entries in a ledger or as numbers stamped on tokens. The blockchain is just a ledger that records all of the transaction made since the block was first created in 2009.
Okay, did you miss the part about any idiot understanding it?
How is the highlighted creating anything that could remotely be considered a tangible asset? It really does look like "money from nothing" to me, so I'm clearly missing something.

I get that our (U.S. dollar) money is no longer backed up by the gold reserves in Fort Knox, but it does still carry the weight of the U.S. Treasury behind it, not just faith alone. There's a reason Monopoly money is worthless outside the game.
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

Last edited by Mike!; 10th June 2021 at 04:56 PM.
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2021, 09:06 PM   #229
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16,116
Tangible in the sense of unique and transferable.

Value comes from utility, convenience and availability.
__________________
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
-Anne Lamott

Last edited by The Great Zaganza; 10th June 2021 at 09:11 PM.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2021, 10:06 PM   #230
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 18,009
Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Okay, did you miss the part about any idiot understanding it?
How is the highlighted creating anything that could remotely be considered a tangible asset? It really does look like "money from nothing" to me, so I'm clearly missing something.
You are not an idiot. You just resist the notion that something that is just 1's and 0's on a computer network could have "value". But something is only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it and rightly or wrongly, lots of people are willing to pay large sums of USD for exclusive ownership of some of this digital data.

Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I get that our (U.S. dollar) money is no longer backed up by the gold reserves in Fort Knox, but it does still carry the weight of the U.S. Treasury behind it, not just faith alone. There's a reason Monopoly money is worthless outside the game.
The USD represents a debt owed by the Fed/Treasury so it is not purely a digital asset. The Fed's assets are primarily IOUs (bonds) issued by the US government which backs up the USD.

Other than that, the USD has "value" for two reasons: The US government mandates that it is "legal tender" (must be accepted to settle a debt) and you must use USD to pay your taxes (this creates demand for the USD).

Monopoly money might not be worth anything in the real world but within the game, it is something that you fight hard to get.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th June 2021, 10:18 PM   #231
ChrisBFRPKY
Illuminator
 
ChrisBFRPKY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,807
Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
If this has been explained already, I apologize, but I'm completely confused by a few things. Can someone answer these questions in a way any idiot can understand?

1. How can you "mine coins"?

2. How does "mining" something that doesn't exist in the physical world consume vast amounts of energy?

3. Where does the high end graphics card come into play?

You mined gold by digging it out of the ground, or panning it from a stream, etc. In every case, the gold was already there, it had to be found and gathered. These "coins" don't exist, how are they created from, what appears to be nothing more than computational energy consumption? If that's the case, where's the "value" come from?
Hi Mike,

1. Coin mining boils down to a computer program running on a network. Somewhere on the internet there is a network of computers running the same cryptocurrency coin program and working together. When you mine for coins you add your computer into that network and assist the other computers by doing work. Your computer works and you get paid for this work. The more work your computer does, the more you get paid.

The concept blew my mind sometime in 2013. My computer could actually work for me 24/7 and make money. Been hooked ever since.

If you were asking "How" you can get started, the easiest way would be to sign up with Nicehash. It's now a matter of clicking a few buttons to start mining. When I started in 2013 I had to download mining software, create batch files, join pools, install wallets etc. Now one can mine on Nicehash and get paid in Bitcoin.

2. The computer/miner consumes energy to do work. Typically when mining, a PC runs at 100% cpu load. There are other versions of mining equipment too but for now let's focus only on the home computer miner. More computers running a mining program use more electricity. Easy.

3. Graphics cards are another type of mining equipment often used. Some cryptocurrencies use a mining algorithm that can be run on a graphics card. Kinda like servers use graphics cards for video acceleration and deep learning. The GPU is like a CPU and while some cryptocurrencies can be mined with graphics cards some cannot.

Yep Gold is already there and I do like shiny precious metals. But I can't mine gold. We don't have any that I know of in Kentucky and I have an uncooperative back. I can task my PC to mine cryptocurrency and buy Gold with the profits though.
ChrisBFRPKY is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th June 2021, 07:57 AM   #232
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16,116
So I have mined ROI coins on two machines to the same wallet, and the program doesn't sync them, even when the ledger is supposedly up-to-date.
This looks like a flaw that could be exploited.
__________________
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
-Anne Lamott
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Economics, Business and Finance

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:36 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.