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Old 6th May 2021, 05:43 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's a nice attempt at a bait and switch but your problem is that the part you quoted is NOT about coding, but about the problems that BTC ostensibly is meant to solve.
Of course! You wanted to get into the mind of the creator so I quoted the part of the post detailing what problems he thought that a decentralized crypto-currency would solve.

What is suspicious about that? Do you think that he was plotting at that stage to rake in millions (implying that he knew the price would take off)? Do you think his real reason for a crypto currency was to bring about the collapse of the global financial system?

This is why I said that you could invent all sorts of CTs to explain his state of mind if you like but none is more probable than the actual words he used.
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Old 6th May 2021, 05:45 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Quote:
imagine if keeping your car idling 24/7 produced solved Sudokus you could trade for heroin
You can trade solved sudokus for heroin?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's an hilarious analogy. And using cars, which of course makes it a great analogy in my book.
Of course you would think so. As far as you are concerned, an analogy doesn't have to make sense as long as it is negative about bitcoin.
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Old 6th May 2021, 06:06 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Of course! You wanted to get into the mind of the creator so I quoted the part of the post detailing what problems he thought that a decentralized crypto-currency would solve.

What is suspicious about that? Do you think that he was plotting at that stage to rake in millions (implying that he knew the price would take off)? Do you think his real reason for a crypto currency was to bring about the collapse of the global financial system?

This is why I said that you could invent all sorts of CTs to explain his state of mind if you like but none is more probable than the actual words he used.
I'm curious about how the culture of crypto has changed over the years. I'm trying to recall back to my college years when I knew a few tech types that were into it for various reasons. Even then, in the early 2010's, a lot of interest seemed to be motivated by money making and less motivated by the potential of bitcoin as an alternative, decentralized currency. The guy I knew that got chewed out for it was using the campus cloud computing lab in the wee hours of the morning to mine bitcoin that he immediately sold off for a small profit. It was basically beer money and he wasn't paying the power bills.



There's probably a good story to be told about how this techno-futurist dream went from ideological experiment to wasteful, pointless speculation vehicle, but I'm not even sure how you would begin.
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Old 6th May 2021, 06:29 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm curious about how the culture of crypto has changed over the years. I'm trying to recall back to my college years when I knew a few tech types that were into it for various reasons. Even then, in the early 2010's, a lot of interest seemed to be motivated by money making and less motivated by the potential of bitcoin as an alternative, decentralized currency. The guy I knew that got chewed out for it was using the campus cloud computing lab in the wee hours of the morning to mine bitcoin that he immediately sold off for a small profit. It was basically beer money and he wasn't paying the power bills.
Back then not a lot of energy was being devoted to mining and what was mined wasn't worth very much.

Like you say, beer money.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There's probably a good story to be told about how this techno-futurist dream went from ideological experiment to wasteful, pointless speculation vehicle, but I'm not even sure how you would begin.
More to the point, how would you have predicted that it would get to this stage?
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Old 6th May 2021, 06:30 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Of course! You wanted to get into the mind of the creator
I did no such thing. You imagined that. I simply said that I had no idea what the original idea was.

Quote:
What is suspicious about that? Do you think that he was plotting at that stage to rake in millions (implying that he knew the price would take off)?
See, again you are under the deluded impression that if I have doubts on this man's story then I must be imagining a different scenario. You need to disabuse yourself of that silly notion.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Of course you would think so. As far as you are concerned, an analogy doesn't have to make sense as long as it is negative about bitcoin.
Again, that's your defensiveness talking. I have no need for BTC to be a bad thing. I just recognise its flaws, and enjoy car analogies. Meanwhile you've made no effort to discredit the analogy.
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Old 6th May 2021, 06:42 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I did no such thing. You imagined that.
No, you defended lomiller's unsubstantiated assertion that bitcoin was "clearly designed by people with radical left wing viewpoints".

I'll admit however that you may have not cared if the assertion was totally ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
See, again you are under the deluded impression that if I have doubts on this man's story then I must be imagining a different scenario. You need to disabuse yourself of that silly notion.
So you don't have a point after all. You just wanted to be contrary.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Meanwhile you've made no effort to discredit the analogy.
There is no need to break the analogy down and show how each aspect bears no relation to any aspect of bitcoin. It is too ridiculous to bother.
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Old 6th May 2021, 07:20 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No, you defended lomiller's unsubstantiated assertion that bitcoin was "clearly designed by people with radical left wing viewpoints".
Again, I did no such thing. I simply pointed out that we don't really know what BTC's actual initial objectives were.

You're insisting on assigning thoughts to other people, but you fail every time. Maybe you should stop trying and instead address what they actuall say.

Quote:
So you don't have a point after all. You just wanted to be contrary
No, I'm pointing out that it's reasonable to doubt the man's assertion. That is literally a point! I'm not saying that he lied; only that his assertion may not be true.

Quote:
There is no need to break the analogy down and show how each aspect bears no relation to any aspect of bitcoin. It is too ridiculous to bother.
Sounds like you just don't like the analogy.
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Old 6th May 2021, 07:30 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sounds like you just don't like the analogy nonsense.
ftfy.
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Old 6th May 2021, 07:32 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy.
As usual your fixes actually make things worse.

Made sense to me, and at least two other people. It's a humorous take on the crypto. It doesn't need to be entirely accurate to be funny. Like saying that "party X would present a pig in the election and it would win" isn't literally true.

So, now. Do you agree that you can rationally and reasonably doubt a particular claim without making an alternate claim yourself?
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Old 6th May 2021, 07:35 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
As usual your fixes actually make things worse better.
ftfy.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So, now. Do you agree that you can rationally and reasonably doubt a particular claim without making an alternate claim yourself?
It is trivially true that any article can contain errors, inaccuracies or lies. If you are going to draw attention to this possibility for a specific article then you would need some reason to do so - either an alternate explanation or some sort of evidence that there is something wrong with the article. This applies doubly so if you suspect a hidden agenda.
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Old 6th May 2021, 09:42 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy.


Quote:
It is trivially true that any article can contain errors, inaccuracies or lies.
That isn't what I asked you or what my point is. Can you or can you not address it without trying to misdirect your readers?
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Old 6th May 2021, 10:04 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
In 2018, someone aptly described Bitcoin as this:



https://twitter.com/Theophite/status...25104234373121

With time passing, it still mostly holds up. Instead of a car idling, it's a car with the gas pedal held down with a brick. I suspect there's much less buying of heroin these days too, and more just pure speculation.
I like that analogy, but it is at least one tulip reference away from spot on.
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Old 6th May 2021, 10:07 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I like that analogy, but it is at least one tulip reference away from spot on.
It won't be long before somebody decides that the corona virus is a good analogy for bitcoin.
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Old 6th May 2021, 10:08 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It won't be long before somebody decides that the corona virus is a good analogy for bitcoin.
Anything can be a good analogy if you find the right points of reference.

The quality of an analogy is not dependant upon the differenced with the thing being paralleled, but the similarities.
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Old 6th May 2021, 10:26 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I didn't know that you knew Satoshi Nakamoto personally. When did he discuss his "radical left wing viewpoints" with you?
Why would that be a requirement? The first I saw of bitcoin was in 2008 while the banking crisis was still going on. Through 2009/10 is was being promoted and popularized along anti-corporation and anti-banking lines. I saw this first hand
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Old 6th May 2021, 10:35 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Why would that be a requirement?
The man thinks that if you doubt someone's claims, you have to have an alternative to present, or else you're just being a contrarian. Let's just say his knowledge of logical implications is lacking.
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Old 6th May 2021, 10:41 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post

I assume you mean Vladimir Lenin, not John Lennon, the late former Beatles frontman.
Your assumption is wrong.

Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Why is it that the leftist woke mobs, Antifa, and BLM all have the backing of the largest banks and corporations? If these people were skeptical, they might ask themselves why all the corporate virtue signaling?
Now you are just being silly. Civil rights activists have a long history of justifiable complaints about banks wrt issues like redlining. It's absurd to suggest they have suddenly changed into support for banks and corporations overnight.

Anti-fascists like antifa generally don't talk about economics all that much because fascism isn't tied to any particular economic policy. There are some general trends though, like close ties between government and hand picked corporations and industrialists willing to support fascist policies.

When they do enter the real of finance and business it's these type of relationships they have issue with. Banks were widely perceived as receiving this type of preferential treatment back in 2009\10 so there is usually a pretty big overlap between anti-fascism and opposition to corporations especially those involved in banking.
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Old 6th May 2021, 10:46 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
I assume you mean Vladimir Lenin, not John Lennon, the late former Beatles frontman.
The Dude : It's all a god damn fake, man. It's like Lenin said: you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh, you know...
Donny : I am the walrus.
The Dude : You know, you'll uh, uh - well, you know what I'm trying' to say...
Donny : I am the walrus.
Walter : That ******* bitch!
The Dude : Oh yeah!
Donny : I am the walrus.
Walter : Shut the **** up, Donny! V.I. Lenin. Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov!
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Old 6th May 2021, 10:54 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I admit I am not up on the history of who invented bitcoin, but if it was someone on the far left it quickly got hijacked by the Hard Line Libertarians.
Most libertarians are barely distinguishable from anarchy-capitalists when it comes to their views on business. This makes them almost indistinguishable from left wing anarchists on many issues. The main thing that seems to make them libertarians instead is their willingness to support right wing social restrictions.
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Old 6th May 2021, 11:07 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
The flip side to whining about the electricity that is consumed by crypto mining, is to consider the deleterious economic effects on savers and the working poor that are the direct result of the debasement of fiat currencies all around the world.

Central banks prop up the financial assets of the rich by conjuring never-ending sums of money to bid up said assets, at the direct expense of people who save such currencies, or exchange their labor for them. Perhaps if central banks didn't use fiat currencies to exploit the poor, there wouldn't be such demand for crypto in the first place.
It seems like the cure is worse than the disease.

Everything wrong with fiat currencies is even more wrong with cryptocurrencies.
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Old 6th May 2021, 11:09 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It won't be long before somebody decides that the corona virus is a good analogy for bitcoin.
When an item has little use but high value I think of tulips. What do you think of?
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Old 6th May 2021, 11:09 AM   #222
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"Debasement" sounds like a made-up problem anyway. The issue isn't with printing money but stagnant wages and stupid tax laws.
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Old 6th May 2021, 11:41 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It seems like the cure is worse than the disease.

Everything wrong with fiat currencies is even more wrong with cryptocurrencies.
You mean, everything wrong with fiat currencies is even more wrong with inflationary cryptocurrencies. Deflationary crypto, like bitcoin, attempts to restore an honest, static measure of value, which, it clearly has, when measured against its price in fiat Federal Reserve Notes.
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Old 6th May 2021, 11:49 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
You mean, everything wrong with fiat currencies is even more wrong with inflationary cryptocurrencies.
Deflationary economies are far worse than inflationary ones. Inflation encourages spending; deflation encourages hoarding.

But you still haven't managed to support the rest of your claims, so I don't expect you to support this one.
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Old 6th May 2021, 12:28 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
You mean, everything wrong with fiat currencies is even more wrong with inflationary cryptocurrencies. Deflationary crypto, like bitcoin, attempts to restore an honest, static measure of value, which, it clearly has, when measured against its price in fiat Federal Reserve Notes.
The problem I see is that it's only deflationary as long as everyone agrees to only use bitcoin.

Suppose someone creates Bitcoin II? Now you have exactly the same problem, unless everyone shuns the use of Bitcoin II, but keeps using Bitcoin.

(And we can call Bitcoin II Dogecoin, or Ethereum.....or.....what next?)

Bitcoin is deflationary, but crypto-currency in general is inflationary. Indeed, it's hyperinflationary. Everyone has the option of printing new money and it will be used or not used based on the whims of the users. A change in psychology could turn fortunes to dust, or dust to fortunes.
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Old 6th May 2021, 12:48 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The problem I see is that it's only deflationary as long as everyone agrees to only use bitcoin.

Suppose someone creates Bitcoin II? Now you have exactly the same problem, unless everyone shuns the use of Bitcoin II, but keeps using Bitcoin.
This has already essentially happened, in a fork called Bitcoin Cash (BCH) hawked by Roger Ver. I'm not keen on the precise technical differences, but I assume that it is still deflationary. I don't know how much the "supply" of this competing crypto has affected the demand for Bitcoin, but I am pretty sure it has.

Quote:

(And we can call Bitcoin II Dogecoin, or Ethereum.....or.....what next?)

Bitcoin is deflationary, but crypto-currency in general is inflationary. Indeed, it's hyperinflationary. Everyone has the option of printing new money and it will be used or not used based on the whims of the users. A change in psychology could turn fortunes to dust, or dust to fortunes.
The network effect, and costs of switching will probably ensure that Bitcoin remains on top, at least into the intermediate future, for the same reason that while it wasn't a monumental feat to introduce a competitor for Microsoft Windows back in the days when it was a worse than sub-par operating system, it wasn't economically feasible to compete with MSFT.

I think when the "dust" settles, most of the crypto pretenders (or shitcoins, if you will) will go to zero, and a few with specialized uses will consolidate the market. Alternatively, "de-fi" will become a thing, and companies will increasingly turn to issuing digital tokens to generate revenue and raise capital.
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Old 6th May 2021, 12:54 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
This has already essentially happened, in a fork called Bitcoin Cash (BCH) hawked by Roger Ver. I'm not keen on the precise technical differences, but I assume that it is still deflationary. I don't know how much the "supply" of this competing crypto has affected the demand for Bitcoin, but I am pretty sure it has.



The network effect, and costs of switching will probably ensure that Bitcoin remains on top, at least into the intermediate future, for the same reason that while it wasn't a monumental feat to introduce a competitor for Microsoft Windows back in the days when it was a worse than sub-par operating system, it wasn't economically feasible to compete with MSFT.

I think when the "dust" settles, most of the crypto pretenders (or shitcoins, if you will) will go to zero, and a few with specialized uses will consolidate the market.
I'm confident of the "going to zero" part. I'm just not sure I understand why that won't happen to all of them, including bitcoin.

I decided to look at google news for "cryptocurrency" today. It seems Dogecoin is up 12,000% since January, and that a brand new crypto callled "chia" might make hard drives more expensive. I can't see any good coming of this.
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Old 6th May 2021, 01:07 PM   #228
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Just to expand on the trend towards digital tokenization, I like to eat fast food fairly often, maybe twice a week. My favorites are Chipotle and Chick-Fil-A. I have credit with them in the form of gift cards that I buy from my local grocery store (Publix) for a 6% reward. I can then scan or enter the cards into my smartphone app and then use them to pay for meals (what can I say, I'm cheap!)

If they were to issue their own cryptocurrency for use with their apps, at a discount, i would probably buy them. If the supply were static and the coins transferrable, even better. As it is now, since the gift cards and menu prices are denominated in dollars, there is no protection against inflation. Chipotle simply raises its menu prices as its costs increase due to a debased dollar. But if they issued their own deflationary (or at least disinflationary) coin, and then offered a menu with prices denominated in those coins, I might be tempted to hold a balance in them. Maybe even a bigger balance than what I currently hold in gift cards.

You can see how this might become a trend.
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Old 6th May 2021, 01:44 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Just to expand on the trend towards digital tokenization, I like to eat fast food fairly often, maybe twice a week. My favorites are Chipotle and Chick-Fil-A. I have credit with them in the form of gift cards that I buy from my local grocery store (Publix) for a 6% reward. I can then scan or enter the cards into my smartphone app and then use them to pay for meals (what can I say, I'm cheap!)

If they were to issue their own cryptocurrency for use with their apps, at a discount, i would probably buy them. If the supply were static and the coins transferrable, even better. As it is now, since the gift cards and menu prices are denominated in dollars, there is no protection against inflation. Chipotle simply raises its menu prices as its costs increase due to a debased dollar. But if they issued their own deflationary (or at least disinflationary) coin, and then offered a menu with prices denominated in those coins, I might be tempted to hold a balance in them. Maybe even a bigger balance than what I currently hold in gift cards.

You can see how this might become a trend.
Sure.

Can you see how, if it did, we would basically have recreated a barter economy?

The example I was thinking of (before you posted the above) would be Meadcoin. I'll make my own cryptocurrency, and let people mine it. There will never be more than 1,000 of them (although you can have fractional meadcoins). Furthermore, I promise that if you give me one Meadcoin, I will give you a bottle of mead.

Now I have a cryptocurrency, but with a value that is guaranteed. It will always be worth at least one bottle of mead. So, someone might start trading one of their meadcoins for enough of your chipotlecoins to purchase a burrito bowl. Depending on the exchange rate, someone might realize they can mine meadcoins for cheaper than the equivalent number of chipotlecoins, so instead of mining chipotlecoins, they mine meadcoins, and trade them for chipotlecoins.
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Old 6th May 2021, 01:51 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Just to expand on the trend towards digital tokenization, I like to eat fast food fairly often, maybe twice a week. My favorites are Chipotle and Chick-Fil-A. I have credit with them in the form of gift cards that I buy from my local grocery store (Publix) for a 6% reward. I can then scan or enter the cards into my smartphone app and then use them to pay for meals (what can I say, I'm cheap!)

If they were to issue their own cryptocurrency for use with their apps, at a discount, i would probably buy them. If the supply were static and the coins transferrable, even better. As it is now, since the gift cards and menu prices are denominated in dollars, there is no protection against inflation. Chipotle simply raises its menu prices as its costs increase due to a debased dollar. But if they issued their own deflationary (or at least disinflationary) coin, and then offered a menu with prices denominated in those coins, I might be tempted to hold a balance in them. Maybe even a bigger balance than what I currently hold in gift cards.

You can see how this might become a trend.
What benefit does this give Chipotle. They still gotta pay their bills in regular US currency, so they likely will immediately convert their crypto funbucks back into real money. Seems like it would introduce a lot of waste for nothing.
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Old 6th May 2021, 02:16 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Sure.

Can you see how, if it did, we would basically have recreated a barter economy?
No, because the fundamental barter problem of the double coincidence of wants is still solved. While a proprietary Chipotle coin isn't legal tender, or useful for paying US Federal Income Taxes, I may still want it because a) it may appreciate vs. the USD due to relative scarcity, b) it represents a credit against future food, and c) others may want it for the above reasons.

Quote:
The example I was thinking of (before you posted the above) would be Meadcoin. I'll make my own cryptocurrency, and let people mine it. There will never be more than 1,000 of them (although you can have fractional meadcoins). Furthermore, I promise that if you give me one Meadcoin, I will give you a bottle of mead.

Now I have a cryptocurrency, but with a value that is guaranteed. It will always be worth at least one bottle of mead. So, someone might start trading one of their meadcoins for enough of your chipotlecoins to purchase a burrito bowl. Depending on the exchange rate, someone might realize they can mine meadcoins for cheaper than the equivalent number of chipotlecoins, so instead of mining chipotlecoins, they mine meadcoins, and trade them for chipotlecoins.
The problem is that your coin, much like Chipotle's, is still ultimately an instrument of credit. With all due respect, virtually no one will value your promise of mead, but lots of people value Chipotle's promise of future food. Therefore, your meadcoins will always sell at a relative discount, if at all.

Remember, the premise behind many cryptos, is that sovereign fiat currencies are highly problematic, and service the interests of our super-rich banker overlords. Therefore, even if in some cases the barter problem of double coincidence does arise, the risk for some is still preferable to saving in Federal Reserve monopoly money.
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Old 6th May 2021, 02:20 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What benefit does this give Chipotle.
They get Tippit to invest in their ChipotleCoin and then start to add new items to their menu that cost slightly more ChipotleCoin than the old items. Over time they slowly keep up with inflation in the real world by turning over their menu, but they got some "huge" upfront investment that they don't really need from anyone who is bitter about missing out on BTC.

Did you hear that the new variegated varieties of bitcoin are worth even more?
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Old 6th May 2021, 02:21 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What benefit does this give Chipotle. They still gotta pay their bills in regular US currency, so they likely will immediately convert their crypto funbucks back into real money. Seems like it would introduce a lot of waste for nothing.
If their token was inflationary, it would benefit them the same way the US government benefits from expropriating savers and workers by devaluing the US dollar - the profits of seigniorage. If it were merely disinflationary or even deflationary, the benefit would be that they get to extend credit, and it could appreciate significantly depending on their future demand. They would benefit for the same reason that Satoshi Nakamoto is a billionaire (or would be, if he ever sold his stack).
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Old 6th May 2021, 05:50 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
The problem is that your coin, much like Chipotle's, is still ultimately an instrument of credit.
Unlike Bitcoin, which is ultimately an entry in a log book.

Quote:
With all due respect, virtually no one will value your promise of mead, but lots of people value Chipotle's promise of future food.
Last time I checked, there were plenty of alcoholic beverages being sold.

But the mead is just the beginning. It's a start. At least someone can get something of value using meadcoin. The first bitcoin transaction was 300 bitcoin in exchange for a pizza. Talk about deflation. Today, those 300 bitcoin would buy somewhere over a million pizzas, all of them with extra cheese.....assuming the pizza maker will take bitcoin. So, we start out with something that will buy a bottle of mead, but after that, it's just currency. Since it always at least has the value of a bottle of mead, then they can exchange it for something else that is tradeable for a bottle of mead. That's how currency works. Over time, though, it becomes like bitcoin, where it just has value because people think it has value. I can even manipulate the currency by cutting the price of my mead. Now, I say you get two bottles of mead for one meadcoin. That could make meadcoin more valuable, and what they don't know is that of all the 1000 possible meadcoins that can ever be minted, I held 500 of them back for myself.

I thought bitcoin was going to take a huge hit when Steam, the gaming service, stopped taking them. It was one more real world business that wouldn't deal with them. It occurs to me, do porn sites take bitcoin? (Asking for a friend.) It would anonymize payments, at least moreso than a credit card, wouldn't it? I need to buy some bitcoin and set up an Ashely Madison account. (Are those people still in business? I just remember them from the big data hack. Better yet, I need to set up a porn site that only takes credit cards and meadcoin. I need to generate some reason to trade in my currency.
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Old 7th May 2021, 01:59 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
When an item has little use but high value I think of tulips. What do you think of?
Why would you compare a craze that lasted less than 1 year with something that just keeps getting stronger and stronger (no signs of abating after 12 years). has spawned hundreds of imitators and encourages technological development to address the technical short comings?

If you have read the original bitcoin thread instead of this clone then you would know all of the other arguments against that particular analogy. I guess that one of the advantages of cloning a thread is that you can copy all of the decade old arguments from the original thread as though they never existed.
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Old 7th May 2021, 05:49 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Unlike Bitcoin, which is ultimately an entry in a log book.



Last time I checked, there were plenty of alcoholic beverages being sold.
It isn’t about whether beverages are being sold, but whether you have the credibility to redeem your tokens. Redeemable tokens are an instrument of credit.

Quote:

But the mead is just the beginning. It's a start. At least someone can get something of value using meadcoin. The first bitcoin transaction was 300 bitcoin in exchange for a pizza. Talk about deflation. Today, those 300 bitcoin would buy somewhere over a million pizzas, all of them with extra cheese.....assuming the pizza maker will take bitcoin.
A million pizzas is definitely something of value, even if it isn’t directly redeemable, and your token would still represent an instrument of credit. Bitcoin, much like Federal Reserve Notes, represents no promise to pay anything. Yet, it is not a fiat currency, because no decrees forcing you to use it have been issued.

I am told that I can use my Federal Reserve Notes to buy gold, and so it doesn’t matter that they aren’t redeemable by the US Treasury in gold (or silver). Of course, that doesn’t prevent the bankers creating them out of thin air from plundering my country into oblivion.

Quote:

I thought bitcoin was going to take a huge hit when Steam, the gaming service, stopped taking them. It was one more real world business that wouldn't deal with them. It occurs to me, do porn sites take bitcoin? (Asking for a friend.) It would anonymize payments, at least moreso than a credit card, wouldn't it? I need to buy some bitcoin and set up an Ashely Madison account. (Are those people still in business? I just remember them from the big data hack. Better yet, I need to set up a porn site that only takes credit cards and meadcoin. I need to generate some reason to trade in my currency.
There are really good reasons to “trade in your currency”, as it is currently being destroyed, along with any premise that honest labor or entrepreneurial value counts for anything in the US anymore. That’s been replaced with unlimited corporate welfare for zombie banks and corporations, social welfare and stimmy checks to placate the ignorant and angry woke mob for another month, stratospheric stock and bond valuations which require assuming ever-more risk to speculate on, and financial repression in the form of ultra-low interest rates, crushing the elderly and anyone on fixed income.

As for bitcoin anonymity, it doesn’t really exist. The blockchain is an open book. If your identity can be associated with one transaction, it can be related to all transactions for the same wallet. In fact, I posted a link to the biggest bitcoin forensics firm that the IRS contracts with years ago in either the first or second iteration of this thread. I would have to search for it as I’ve forgotten the name. You would have to use Monero or something similar for crypto-anonymity.


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Old 7th May 2021, 05:52 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Bitcoin, much like Federal Reserve Notes, represents no promise to pay anything. Yet, it is not a fiat currency, because no decrees forcing you to use it have been issued.
And that's actually one of its flaws, as it works against its stability. If an actual country were to decide to use it in parallel with its official currency, that might go a long way.
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Old 7th May 2021, 06:02 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
It isn’t about whether beverages are being sold, but whether you have the credibility to redeem your tokens. Redeemable tokens are an instrument of credit.



A million pizzas is definitely something of value, even if it isn’t directly redeemable, and your token would still represent an instrument of credit. Bitcoin, much like Federal Reserve Notes, represents no promise to pay anything. Yet, it is not a fiat currency, because no decrees forcing you to use it have been issued.

I am told that I can use my Federal Reserve Notes to buy gold, and so it doesn’t matter that they aren’t redeemable by the US Treasury in gold (or silver). Of course, that doesn’t prevent the bankers creating them out of thin air from plundering my country into oblivion.
I look around my house, and my neighbor's houses and apartments, and in the stores, and if this be oblivion, it's not so bad.

Unfortunately, you do have a point. This sort of thing really is happening and I do think we have built an economic house of cards which will collapse. However, it collapsed 12 years ago, and it was terribly inconvenient and a lot of people who thought they had lots of wealth discovered they didn't, and that was rather unpleasant.

And it will be again. But after shuffling around a whole bunch of stuff, we'll come out of it just like we did then. I must admit that I look at my future, and see that a comfortable lifestyle depends on my life's savings, and I suspect that I won't have that comfortable lifestyle, for all the reasons you note, and yet I don't think we will see food riots or waves of homelessness. This fiat currency stuff is a lot of smoke and mirrors, but it seems to be working.

I just don't see where bitcoin makes things better. I think it has even less connection to reality than the fiat currencies you decry.
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Old 7th May 2021, 08:27 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why would you compare a craze that lasted less than 1 year with something that just keeps getting stronger and stronger (no signs of abating after 12 years). has spawned hundreds of imitators and encourages technological development to address the technical short comings?
Sorry, I didn't realize the time factor was so important. A year, a decade, the analogy was about value. What value is added?

But, at least the tulip investors got tulips. And if you still have your Beanie Babies then you still have a toy.

When the market for bitcoin collapses what will the investors have?
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Old 7th May 2021, 08:34 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I look around my house, and my neighbor's houses and apartments, and in the stores, and if this be oblivion, it's not so bad.
Well, as long as you're doing well in your mansion, that's all that matters.

Quote:

Unfortunately, you do have a point. This sort of thing really is happening and I do think we have built an economic house of cards which will collapse. However, it collapsed 12 years ago, and it was terribly inconvenient and a lot of people who thought they had lots of wealth discovered they didn't, and that was rather unpleasant.
Recognizing that there are serious problems isn't the hard part. The hard part is understanding the root cause of the problems, so as to properly understand the solutions. As Lenin said about the debasement of money, not one man in a million is able to diagnose it. And here we are.

Quote:

And it will be again. But after shuffling around a whole bunch of stuff, we'll come out of it just like we did then. I must admit that I look at my future, and see that a comfortable lifestyle depends on my life's savings, and I suspect that I won't have that comfortable lifestyle, for all the reasons you note, and yet I don't think we will see food riots or waves of homelessness. This fiat currency stuff is a lot of smoke and mirrors, but it seems to be working.
Normalcy bias is a thing. The assumption that we will come out of it just fine may eventually turn out to be just an assumption, and then things will be different. I'm a multimillionaire. Fiat currency is working great for me, because of the nominal prices of the various assets in my portfolio. None of those assets is going to matter much, except for the farmland, the stored food, and my rifles, in an economic collapse. All the money in the world won't matter if your house is burning down in a cultural revolution.

Money has to work for everyone, and if it isn't, then it isn't working.

Quote:

I just don't see where bitcoin makes things better. I think it has even less connection to reality than the fiat currencies you decry.
I never claimed that bitcoin makes things better. Bitcoin is a cryptographically scarce digital asset, which is making the people who had the foresight to invest in it great fortunes. It's a canary in the coal mine, at this point.
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