Young children and past lives

senorpogo · 25th July 2006, 04:40 PM

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2232830&page=1

Quote:

Jim Tucker, a child psychiatrist and medical director of the Child and Family Psychiatric Clinic at the University of Virginia, is one of the few researchers to extensively study the phenomenon of children who seem to have memories of past lives.

He says James' case is very much like others he has studied.

"At the University of Virginia, we've studied over 2,500 cases of children who seem to talk about previous lives when they're little," Tucker said. "They start at 2 or 3, and by the time they're 6 or 7 they forget all about it and go on to live the rest of their lives."

Tucker — the author of "Life Before Life: A Scientific Investigation of Children's Memories of Previous Lives" — has seen cases like James' where children make statements that can be verified and seem to match with a particular person.

Is anyone familiar with Mr. Tucker and his research? They don't detail what these statments really are or what the kids know that they shouldn't really know. Logically, wouldn't any random statment probably correspond with someone's life? I could just make something up any death scenario and find someone who died in that manner.

kevin · 25th July 2006, 04:53 PM

Let me guess, they were all Princes or Princesses with their own pony and parents that were nice to them.

KingMerv00 · 25th July 2006, 04:55 PM

Watch the video on the website.

Prepare noose.

Hang self because of wasted time.

Forty-Two · 25th July 2006, 05:25 PM

[sigh] I remember an incident that happened when I was four years old: My family was in the car on vacation and my older sister (then nine) was talking about how something we saw reminded her of something that happened years ago. She started every other sentence with, "When I was five..."

I was always a sarcastic kid (my parents have amusing stories of me mocking my sister in sarcastic tones even before I could say complete words), and I was at the age when kids just like to hear themselves speak. It wasn't long before I started my sentences with, "When I was five..." This practice stopped abruptly when my sister realized she was being mocked and snapped, "You were never five! You're only four!"

I wonder how many less-observant and more... woo-bent parents might have heard my "When I was five" stories and determined that I was talking about being five in a past life. Some kids that age really love to talk just to talk; I remember doing it, and I hear my five-year-old nephew do it.

RichardR · 25th July 2006, 05:57 PM

From the link:

Quote:

From the ages of 2 to 6, James Leininger seemed to recall in striking detail a "past life" he had as a World War II Navy pilot who was shot down and killed over the Pacific.

The boy knew details about airplanes and about pilot James Huston Jr. that he couldn't have known.

A more prosaic version of James Leininger's story.

valis · 25th July 2006, 06:27 PM

Anytime my wife and I talk about an experience that occured before his birth our six year old will swear he remembers it.

So does anyone have the number of the therapist I am supposed to call....

Meffy · 25th July 2006, 06:47 PM

When very young my mother had me tested at the University of Virginia for ESP. Apparently I have extraordinarily high telepathic and precognitive powers. *9_9* Funny, when I returned as a student about a decade and a half later I wasn't able to read professors' minds or guess exam answers. =@.o=

Even as a kit I could tell that "Okay, we'll call that one a warm-up. Now let's do another run for real. Ready?" was wrong, and invalidated what they were trying to say I could do.

demonologist · 25th July 2006, 06:52 PM

Children have stunningly good memories. My niece regularly amazes me by remembering minor details about things. The effect is even greater because they are usually talking about stuff that is beyond their comprehension. But it's just a parrot effect. The kid was obsessed with planes and remembered a few things. Now, obviously, he's forgotten but parents have a hard time accepting that their kid is "just" normal.

Rodney · 25th July 2006, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by RichardR

From the link:

A more prosaic version of James Leininger's story.

If you believe the "prosaic" version, you must believe that all 18 month-old children who visit museums with WWII vintage planes have nightmares about being killed while flying those planes.

Rasmus · 25th July 2006, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Rodney

If you believe the "prosaic" version, you must believe that all 18 month-old children who visit museums with WWII vintage planes have nightmares about being killed while flying those planes.

No.

I just have to believe that it's possible with some children, and I have to make the daring assumption that it is a more likely explanation that memories from a past life.

Bronze Dog · 25th July 2006, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Rodney

If you believe the "prosaic" version, you must believe that [some] 18 month-old children who visit museums with WWII vintage planes [can] have nightmares about being killed while flying those planes.

Fixed.

Jaggy Bunnet · 25th July 2006, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Rodney

If you believe the "prosaic" version, you must believe that all 18 month-old children who visit museums with WWII vintage planes have nightmares about being killed while flying those planes.

Like to explain the logic behind that statement, or are you making things up again?

bjb · 25th July 2006, 10:29 PM

These kinds of stories remind me of the McMartin preschool case:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_mcmar.htm

Pretty much all of the students told stories of horrible things going on at the school, so awful that they couldn't possibly have made them up. The kids even swore there were underground rooms were abuse took place. This went on for quite a while until the police got around to looking for physical evidence that would back up the children's stories. That's when the truth began to come out:

Children were pressured by parents; CII interviewers used leading, suggestive, and repeated questions. These are the precise techniques that almost guarantee the implantation of false memories in the minds of children.

The false memories were caused by the investigators who were looking for evidence of child abuse. It isn't very hard for me to suspect that an investigator looking for evidence of past lives is using techniques that create false memories of past lives, just as the McMartin students believed they had been abused.

Soapy Sam · 25th July 2006, 10:42 PM

Given the apparent abundance of psychic gifts, I wonder why nobody ever remembers future lives?

Meri · 25th July 2006, 10:47 PM

Mary Roach covered the idea of children remembering past lives in her book Spook, although she talked to a researcher in India. The research seemed to amount to: "My son is afraid of tractors" "Why, a man in the next village was run over by a tractor about the time your son was born! What are the odds!" After a "link" like that was established, the kid's imagination could easily take over.

gumboot · 25th July 2006, 11:06 PM

The only part of Jame's story I find the least bit interesting is the historical connection to Iwo Jima. I did find the similarities rather creepy - beyond coincidence. But, as is pointed out in the link, we don't know details regarding how this information was revealed.

So I did some research of my own. And guess what? The casablanca class USS Natoma Bay (CVE 62) escort carrier DID provide air combat support during the Battle of Iwo Jima.

But that's where it all falls apart.

No F4U Corsairs were ever flown from the deck of USS Natoma Bay during World War 2. At Iwo Jima the ship's composite squadron (Escort Carriers only had a single composite squadron consisting of fighters and torpedo aircraft) was VC 81, who operated off the ship from September 1944 until March 1945.

VC 81 consisted of:

16 - 24 General Motors FM-2 Wildcats (fighters)
(The FM-2 was an improved version of the Grumman F4F Wildcat which was used until the end of WW2 on escort carriers where newer, heavier, and larger aircraft could not be used.)
9 - 12 Grumman TBF/M Avengers (torpedo bombers)

So basically, we have a series of events that are entirely explainable in other ways, combined with only one specific historic instance that supports a paranormal explanation. And that one specific historical instance proves to be BS.

Obviously the father is a pretty lame researcher.

-Andrew

Rodney · 26th July 2006, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by BronzeDog

Fixed.

Yep, the "prosaic" version's logic is impeccable: "However, although he was excited by the planes, the images of WWII battles also frightened him, and they soon began to give him nightmares about being trapped in a plane on fire." So parents beware: Don't take your young children to see WWII planes!

Rodney · 26th July 2006, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by gumboot

The only part of Jame's story I find the least bit interesting is the historical connection to Iwo Jima. I did find the similarities rather creepy - beyond coincidence. But, as is pointed out in the link, we don't know details regarding how this information was revealed.

So I did some research of my own. And guess what? The casablanca class USS Natoma Bay (CVE 62) escort carrier DID provide air combat support during the Battle of Iwo Jima.

But that's where it all falls apart.

No F4U Corsairs were ever flown from the deck of USS Natoma Bay during World War 2. At Iwo Jima the ship's composite squadron (Escort Carriers only had a single composite squadron consisting of fighters and torpedo aircraft) was VC 81, who operated off the ship from September 1944 until March 1945.

VC 81 consisted of:

16 - 24 General Motors FM-2 Wildcats (fighters)
(The FM-2 was an improved version of the Grumman F4F Wildcat which was used until the end of WW2 on escort carriers where newer, heavier, and larger aircraft could not be used.)
9 - 12 Grumman TBF/M Avengers (torpedo bombers)

So basically, we have a series of events that are entirely explainable in other ways, combined with only one specific historic instance that supports a paranormal explanation. And that one specific historical instance proves to be BS.

Obviously the father is a pretty lame researcher.

-Andrew

Unfortunately, your research came up much shorter than the father's. See this article -- http://www.ntcsites.com/acadianhouse...ature_24_3.htm -- which notes that James didn't explicitly state that he died on a Corsair -- only that he flew Corsairs. Specifically, according to his parents, Andrea and Bruce, James stated: “Airplane crash on fire, little man can’t get out."

". . . However, Bruce still had hope that all of this talk about spirits was wrong. After vigorously checking into the squadron’s aircraft action records, he found out that Huston was shot down in a FM2 Wildcat fighter plane – not a Corsair – and no one at the reunion mentioned anything about Corsairs taking off from the Natoma Bay. Bruce says this apparent inaccuracy gave him hope that all of this was just a series of coincidences.

"Just to make sure, Bruce tried to find members of Huston’s family. In February of 2003 he made contact with Anne Huston Barron, Huston’s sister, who now lives in Los Gatos, Calif. Through several phone conversations, the Leiningers and Ms. Barron became friends, and she agreed to send Bruce photos of her brother during his military service. The packages of photos arrived in February and March of 2003.

"In one of the packages was a photo of Huston standing in front of a Corsair fighter plane – the same kind of plane James had mentioned over and over. According to Bruce, interviews with past servicemen and declassified U.S. military records, before Huston joined up with the Natoma Bay and VC-81, he was part of an elite special squadron, the VF-301 Devil’s Disciples, from January to August of 1944.

"The elite squadron test-flew Corsairs for carrier use, and only 20 pilots were selected for this assignment. However, the VF-301 squadron was disbanded after eight months and Huston was then transferred to VC-81 on Oct. 8, 1944."

Ripley Twenty-Nine · 26th July 2006, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by Rodney

Yep, the "prosaic" version's logic is impeccable: "However, although he was excited by the planes, the images of WWII battles also frightened him, and they soon began to give him nightmares about being trapped in a plane on fire." So parents beware: Don't take your young children to see WWII planes!

Yes, and children can also have nightmares about dogs, cats, movies, cars, tigers, thunderstorms, grizzly bears, TV shows, trains, etc, etc, etc. Welcome to the real world.

When a child goes to a museum, and is told about fighter pilots being killed in combat, is it too much of a stretch to imagine that a child could have nightmares about this?? No really, is it?

KingMerv00 · 26th July 2006, 08:34 AM

Is it me or do the parents seem to think that their child is a dingbat?

He knew what a drop tank was. Big *********** deal. I knew someone who could give the Latin names of the all plants in their back yard when they were a kid. Why do people always think that children are complete idiots?

Hmm...on second thought, they do make him watch teletubbies. Isn't he a bit old for that "show"?

Bronze Dog · 26th July 2006, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Rodney

Yep, the "prosaic" version's logic is impeccable: "However, although he was excited by the planes, the images of WWII battles also frightened him, and they soon began to give him nightmares about being trapped in a plane on fire." So parents beware: Don't take your young children to see WWII planes!

Yeah. Let's just shelter them in a blank white cubical room and only show them Teletubbies.

How about the REAL lesson: Don't over-interpret perfectly normal dreams.

RichardR · 26th July 2006, 09:26 AM

gumboot:

Great research - thanks. I'll update the blog post.

RichardR · 26th July 2006, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Rodney

Yep, the "prosaic" version's logic is impeccable: "However, although he was excited by the planes, the images of WWII battles also frightened him, and they soon began to give him nightmares about being trapped in a plane on fire."

Glad you finally saw sense.

Rodney · 26th July 2006, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by RichardR

gumboot:

Great research - thanks. I'll update the blog post.

Certainly as great as the blog post -- no question about that.

RichardR · 26th July 2006, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Rodney

Unfortunately, your research came up much shorter than the father's. See this article -- http://www.ntcsites.com/acadianhouse...ature_24_3.htm -- which notes that James didn't explicitly state that he died on a Corsair -- only that he flew Corsairs.

Not quite true. From your link:

Quote:

From July to September of 2000, James began to tell his parents that the plane in his nightmares was shot down by the Japanese after it had taken off from a ship on the water. When James was asked if he knew who the pilot was, he simply replied “James.”

Andrea asked James what type of plane he was flying in his dreams, and he said it was a “Corsair.” Then, after repeated attempts to push for more information right after the nightmares, Bruce and Andrea got the word “Natoma.”

(My bold.)

The plane in his nightmares where he was shot down - was a Corsair. Later:

Quote:

After vigorously checking into the squadron’s aircraft action records, he found out that Huston was shot down in a FM2 Wildcat fighter plane – not a Corsair

Speaks for itself.

KingMerv00 · 26th July 2006, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Rodney

Yep, the "prosaic" version's logic is impeccable: "However, although he was excited by the planes, the images of WWII battles also frightened him, and they soon began to give him nightmares about being trapped in a plane on fire." So parents beware: Don't take your young children to see WWII planes!

I disagree, YOUR logic is impeccable:

1)Child has rudimentary knowledge of WWII aircraft and has nightmares about crashing planes.

ergo

2)His consciousness is a non-physical entity immune to the laws of nature as we know them and traveled from a dying man's body into the body of a child decades later.

Air tight. Bravo.

bjb · 26th July 2006, 10:14 AM

Rodney, what do you think of the possibility that the kid was asked leading questions and merely confirmed what he was expected to confirm? The article states:

...after repeated attempts to push for more information right after the nightmares, Bruce and Andrea got the word “Natoma.”

It is clear to me that Bruce and Andrea are creating false memories in this kid. No wonder he has nightmares. What do you think about that, Rodney?

Ripley Twenty-Nine · 26th July 2006, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by bjb

Rodney, what do you think of the possibility that the kid was asked leading questions and merely confirmed what he was expected to confirm? The article states:

...after repeated attempts to push for more information right after the nightmares, Bruce and Andrea got the word “Natoma.”

It is clear to me that Bruce and Andrea are creating false memories in this kid. No wonder he has nightmares. What do you think about that, Rodney?

Hey, Rodney isn't making any conclusions, just asking some questions.

Ashles · 26th July 2006, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Rodney

Yep, the "prosaic" version's logic is impeccable: "However, although he was excited by the planes, the images of WWII battles also frightened him, and they soon began to give him nightmares about being trapped in a plane on fire." So parents beware: Don't take your young children to see WWII planes!

What a weird thing to say.

It seems perfectly acceptable to suggest that seeing a fighter plane might be followed by nightmares involving being trapped in one.

You seem to be strangely opposed to this perfectly mundane explanation.

When I was little I watched the pilot for Streethawk. That night I had a nightmare about being trapped under a pile of motorbikes.
This doesn't lead to the conclusion that no children should be allowed to watch films involving motorbikes.

Although it seems that you really just don't like the mundane possible explanation.

Bronze Dog · 26th July 2006, 10:59 AM

I might be imagining this, but does it seem like Rodney's carrying around an enthymeme that children can't have vivid dreams?

Psiload · 26th July 2006, 11:00 AM

How long before this poor kid's parents jump on the "Indigo Children" bandwagon?

Meffy · 26th July 2006, 11:06 AM

I'm less concerned for the parents, who seem already immersed in woo, than for the child whose life they might be screwing up. Hope the young'un is able to put this kind of silliness behind him and have a reasonably normal life. I did, despite how coooool it would've been if I'd actually had the psychic powers the U.Va. researchers said I had. But even when very young I understood the diff between reality and wishful thinking.

Jimbo07 · 26th July 2006, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Meffy

I did, despite how coooool it would've been if I'd actually had the psychic powers the U.Va. researchers said I had.

I don't know the motivations of your mother, but this raises an interesting general point...

... why do people look so hard for such mundane examples of woo?

For example, if a parent couldn't predict every single lottery number, past and future, while simultaneously turning back time, why would they be proud that their child could show a better-than-average performance at guessing playing cards?

Pretending for a moment that psychic abilities even exist, the first parents to have a genuinely powerful psychic child who can both stay ahead of them due to advanced telepathy and manipulate their environment through strong telekinesis will quickly go from being proud to manifestly terrified.

Kaarjuus · 26th July 2006, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Given the apparent abundance of psychic gifts, I wonder why nobody ever remembers future lives?

Come on, get your feet back on the ground. Everybody knows reincarnation works in one way only.

drkitten · 26th July 2006, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Jimbo07

... why do people look so hard for such mundane examples of woo?

Because everyone wants their children to be special (in a positive way).

Quote:

For example, if a parent couldn't predict every single lottery number, past and future, while simultaneously turning back time, why would they be proud that their child could show a better-than-average performance at guessing playing cards?

Pretending for a moment that psychic abilities even exist, the first parents to have a genuinely powerful psychic child who can both stay ahead of them due to advanced telepathy and manipulate their environment through strong telekinesis will quickly go from being proud to manifestly terrified.

I disagree. In my line of work, I meet a fair number of dumb parents with bright children, and no one seems to be terrified that their child has the ability to stay ahead of them and manipulate the enviroment through the astonishing power of sequencing and logical reasoning.

They're typically much more proud of their child's gifts, even if they think that logical reasoning and a good memory are something magical. But if they're proud of "magical" intelligence, why not of precognition and telepathy?

Kaarjuus · 26th July 2006, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Rodney

Yep, the "prosaic" version's logic is impeccable: "However, although he was excited by the planes, the images of WWII battles also frightened him, and they soon began to give him nightmares about being trapped in a plane on fire." So parents beware: Don't take your young children to see WWII planes!

What's the problem here, really? You do not believe children can have nightmares about battles? I had nightmares about an old sinister fusebox at my aunt's house.

Ashles · 26th July 2006, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Kaarjuus

What's the problem here, really? You do not believe children can have nightmares about battles? I had nightmares about an old sinister fusebox at my aunt's house.

If I believed that "prosaic" version, I would believe that all children who visit aunt's houses with old sinister fuseboxes would have nightmares about being killed while flying those planes.

Apparently.

Psiload · 26th July 2006, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by drkitten

Because everyone wants their children to be special (in a positive way).

Can't you just see them driving around town with a bumper sticker on their car that reads:

Proud Parent of a WWII Fighter Pilot

Meffy · 26th July 2006, 01:08 PM

My mother believed (half-believed might be more accurate) that I'd been -- no jokes, now! -- "touched by the fairies." That is, the Irish part of her ancestry had transmitted supernatural abilities to me.

Admittedly I was a very unusual kit. But that was mostly because of what she taught me (reading at age two; proof- and copy-reading, which was what she did for a living back then, by age three; and always to be interested in the world, not to take it for granted). At age five or six I routinely did better at the tests in my father's college chemistry textbooks than he did. With all that "specialness" (ick) I hardly needed more. But there ya go.

The mostly-good side was that a lot of my agemates believed my nonexistent abilities were real. They weren't, I just learned plenty of clever tricks that gave me power over some of the other kits and pups and whatnot. But the bad side was that even after explaining the tricks some insisted I could perform genuine magic and so forth. :-( And that's when I learned that not everyone considered the supernatural to be just a lark. *sigh*

bjb · 26th July 2006, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Jimbo07

Pretending for a moment that psychic abilities even exist, the first parents to have a genuinely powerful psychic child who can both stay ahead of them due to advanced telepathy and manipulate their environment through strong telekinesis will quickly go from being proud to manifestly terrified.

You're describing something very much like Jerome Bixby's short story "It's A Good Life", which was made into a Twilight Zone episode:

http://www.llywelyn.net/docs/greats/...good_life.html

That was a good thing you done, Jimbo07, that was a real good thing.

25th July 2006, 04:40 PM	#1
senorpogo Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,100	Young children and past lives http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2232830&page=1 Quote: Jim Tucker, a child psychiatrist and medical director of the Child and Family Psychiatric Clinic at the University of Virginia, is one of the few researchers to extensively study the phenomenon of children who seem to have memories of past lives. He says James' case is very much like others he has studied. "At the University of Virginia, we've studied over 2,500 cases of children who seem to talk about previous lives when they're little," Tucker said. "They start at 2 or 3, and by the time they're 6 or 7 they forget all about it and go on to live the rest of their lives." Tucker — the author of "Life Before Life: A Scientific Investigation of Children's Memories of Previous Lives" — has seen cases like James' where children make statements that can be verified and seem to match with a particular person. Is anyone familiar with Mr. Tucker and his research? They don't detail what these statments really are or what the kids know that they shouldn't really know. Logically, wouldn't any random statment probably correspond with someone's life? I could just make something up any death scenario and find someone who died in that manner.
senorpogo Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,100

25th July 2006, 04:53 PM	#2
kevin Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,666	Let me guess, they were all Princes or Princesses with their own pony and parents that were nice to them.
kevin Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,666

25th July 2006, 05:25 PM	#4
Forty-Two Muse Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 912	[sigh] I remember an incident that happened when I was four years old: My family was in the car on vacation and my older sister (then nine) was talking about how something we saw reminded her of something that happened years ago. She started every other sentence with, "When I was five..." I was always a sarcastic kid (my parents have amusing stories of me mocking my sister in sarcastic tones even before I could say complete words), and I was at the age when kids just like to hear themselves speak. It wasn't long before I started my sentences with, "When I was five..." This practice stopped abruptly when my sister realized she was being mocked and snapped, "You were never five! You're only four!" I wonder how many less-observant and more... woo-bent parents might have heard my "When I was five" stories and determined that I was talking about being five in a past life. Some kids that age really love to talk just to talk; I remember doing it, and I hear my five-year-old nephew do it.
Forty-Two Muse Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 912

25th July 2006, 05:57 PM	#5
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,274	From the link: Quote: From the ages of 2 to 6, James Leininger seemed to recall in striking detail a "past life" he had as a World War II Navy pilot who was shot down and killed over the Pacific. The boy knew details about airplanes and about pilot James Huston Jr. that he couldn't have known. A more prosaic version of James Leininger's story.
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,274	__________________ Read: Skeptico - Critical thinking for an irrational world

25th July 2006, 06:27 PM	#6
valis Muse Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 647	Anytime my wife and I talk about an experience that occured before his birth our six year old will swear he remembers it. So does anyone have the number of the therapist I am supposed to call....
valis Muse Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 647	__________________ Everybody knows freedom, it's living inside your head. Everybody knows Jesus, you'll meet him when you are dead. A song, by those guys...

25th July 2006, 04:55 PM	#3
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 14,458	Watch the video on the website. Prepare noose. Hang self because of wasted time.

25th July 2006, 06:47 PM	#7
Meffy Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,208	When very young my mother had me tested at the University of Virginia for ESP. Apparently I have extraordinarily high telepathic and precognitive powers. 9_9 Funny, when I returned as a student about a decade and a half later I wasn't able to read professors' minds or guess exam answers. =@.o= Even as a kit I could tell that "Okay, we'll call that one a warm-up. Now let's do another run for real. Ready?" was wrong, and invalidated what they were trying to say I could do.
Meffy Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,208

25th July 2006, 06:52 PM	#8
demonologist Scholar Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 79	Children have stunningly good memories. My niece regularly amazes me by remembering minor details about things. The effect is even greater because they are usually talking about stuff that is beyond their comprehension. But it's just a parrot effect. The kid was obsessed with planes and remembered a few things. Now, obviously, he's forgotten but parents have a hard time accepting that their kid is "just" normal.
demonologist Scholar Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 79

25th July 2006, 07:02 PM	#9
Rodney Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,942	Originally Posted by RichardR From the link: A more prosaic version of James Leininger's story. If you believe the "prosaic" version, you must believe that all 18 month-old children who visit museums with WWII vintage planes have nightmares about being killed while flying those planes.
Rodney Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,942

25th July 2006, 07:05 PM	#10
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,372	Originally Posted by Rodney If you believe the "prosaic" version, you must believe that all 18 month-old children who visit museums with WWII vintage planes have nightmares about being killed while flying those planes. No. I just have to believe that it's possible with some children, and I have to make the daring assumption that it is a more likely explanation that memories from a past life.
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,372

25th July 2006, 07:06 PM	#11
Bronze Dog Copper Alloy Canid Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4,993	Originally Posted by Rodney If you believe the "prosaic" version, you must believe that [some] 18 month-old children who visit museums with WWII vintage planes [can] have nightmares about being killed while flying those planes. Fixed.
	__________________ Stop Sylvia Browne Warning: Beware of contaminated water supplies! Suspected source of contamination: Sarah-I A non-Rockstar Rambler and dissector of Doggerel

25th July 2006, 07:08 PM	#12
Jaggy Bunnet Philosopher Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 6,241	Originally Posted by Rodney If you believe the "prosaic" version, you must believe that all 18 month-old children who visit museums with WWII vintage planes have nightmares about being killed while flying those planes. Like to explain the logic behind that statement, or are you making things up again?

25th July 2006, 10:29 PM	#13
bjb Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,079	These kinds of stories remind me of the McMartin preschool case: http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_mcmar.htm Pretty much all of the students told stories of horrible things going on at the school, so awful that they couldn't possibly have made them up. The kids even swore there were underground rooms were abuse took place. This went on for quite a while until the police got around to looking for physical evidence that would back up the children's stories. That's when the truth began to come out: Children were pressured by parents; CII interviewers used leading, suggestive, and repeated questions. These are the precise techniques that almost guarantee the implantation of false memories in the minds of children. The false memories were caused by the investigators who were looking for evidence of child abuse. It isn't very hard for me to suspect that an investigator looking for evidence of past lives is using techniques that create false memories of past lives, just as the McMartin students believed they had been abused.
bjb Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,079

25th July 2006, 10:42 PM	#14
Soapy Sam Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 28,750	Given the apparent abundance of psychic gifts, I wonder why nobody ever remembers future lives?

25th July 2006, 10:47 PM	#15
Meri Muse Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 688	Mary Roach covered the idea of children remembering past lives in her book Spook, although she talked to a researcher in India. The research seemed to amount to: "My son is afraid of tractors" "Why, a man in the next village was run over by a tractor about the time your son was born! What are the odds!" After a "link" like that was established, the kid's imagination could easily take over.
Meri Muse Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 688

25th July 2006, 11:06 PM	#16
gumboot lorcutus.tolere Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 25,327	The only part of Jame's story I find the least bit interesting is the historical connection to Iwo Jima. I did find the similarities rather creepy - beyond coincidence. But, as is pointed out in the link, we don't know details regarding how this information was revealed. So I did some research of my own. And guess what? The casablanca class USS Natoma Bay (CVE 62) escort carrier DID provide air combat support during the Battle of Iwo Jima. But that's where it all falls apart. No F4U Corsairs were ever flown from the deck of USS Natoma Bay during World War 2. At Iwo Jima the ship's composite squadron (Escort Carriers only had a single composite squadron consisting of fighters and torpedo aircraft) was VC 81, who operated off the ship from September 1944 until March 1945. VC 81 consisted of: 16 - 24 General Motors FM-2 Wildcats (fighters) (The FM-2 was an improved version of the Grumman F4F Wildcat which was used until the end of WW2 on escort carriers where newer, heavier, and larger aircraft could not be used.) 9 - 12 Grumman TBF/M Avengers (torpedo bombers) So basically, we have a series of events that are entirely explainable in other ways, combined with only one specific historic instance that supports a paranormal explanation. And that one specific historical instance proves to be BS. Obviously the father is a pretty lame researcher. -Andrew
	__________________ O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.

26th July 2006, 07:31 AM	#17
Rodney Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,942	Originally Posted by BronzeDog Fixed. Yep, the "prosaic" version's logic is impeccable: "However, although he was excited by the planes, the images of WWII battles also frightened him, and they soon began to give him nightmares about being trapped in a plane on fire." So parents beware: Don't take your young children to see WWII planes!
Rodney Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,942

26th July 2006, 07:43 AM	#18
Rodney Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,942	Originally Posted by gumboot The only part of Jame's story I find the least bit interesting is the historical connection to Iwo Jima. I did find the similarities rather creepy - beyond coincidence. But, as is pointed out in the link, we don't know details regarding how this information was revealed. So I did some research of my own. And guess what? The casablanca class USS Natoma Bay (CVE 62) escort carrier DID provide air combat support during the Battle of Iwo Jima. But that's where it all falls apart. No F4U Corsairs were ever flown from the deck of USS Natoma Bay during World War 2. At Iwo Jima the ship's composite squadron (Escort Carriers only had a single composite squadron consisting of fighters and torpedo aircraft) was VC 81, who operated off the ship from September 1944 until March 1945. VC 81 consisted of: 16 - 24 General Motors FM-2 Wildcats (fighters) (The FM-2 was an improved version of the Grumman F4F Wildcat which was used until the end of WW2 on escort carriers where newer, heavier, and larger aircraft could not be used.) 9 - 12 Grumman TBF/M Avengers (torpedo bombers) So basically, we have a series of events that are entirely explainable in other ways, combined with only one specific historic instance that supports a paranormal explanation. And that one specific historical instance proves to be BS. Obviously the father is a pretty lame researcher. -Andrew Unfortunately, your research came up much shorter than the father's. See this article -- http://www.ntcsites.com/acadianhouse...ature_24_3.htm -- which notes that James didn't explicitly state that he died on a Corsair -- only that he flew Corsairs. Specifically, according to his parents, Andrea and Bruce, James stated: “Airplane crash on fire, little man can’t get out." ". . . However, Bruce still had hope that all of this talk about spirits was wrong. After vigorously checking into the squadron’s aircraft action records, he found out that Huston was shot down in a FM2 Wildcat fighter plane – not a Corsair – and no one at the reunion mentioned anything about Corsairs taking off from the Natoma Bay. Bruce says this apparent inaccuracy gave him hope that all of this was just a series of coincidences. "Just to make sure, Bruce tried to find members of Huston’s family. In February of 2003 he made contact with Anne Huston Barron, Huston’s sister, who now lives in Los Gatos, Calif. Through several phone conversations, the Leiningers and Ms. Barron became friends, and she agreed to send Bruce photos of her brother during his military service. The packages of photos arrived in February and March of 2003. "In one of the packages was a photo of Huston standing in front of a Corsair fighter plane – the same kind of plane James had mentioned over and over. According to Bruce, interviews with past servicemen and declassified U.S. military records, before Huston joined up with the Natoma Bay and VC-81, he was part of an elite special squadron, the VF-301 Devil’s Disciples, from January to August of 1944. "The elite squadron test-flew Corsairs for carrier use, and only 20 pilots were selected for this assignment. However, the VF-301 squadron was disbanded after eight months and Huston was then transferred to VC-81 on Oct. 8, 1944."
Rodney Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,942

26th July 2006, 07:47 AM	#19
Ripley Twenty-Nine Muse Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 849	Originally Posted by Rodney Yep, the "prosaic" version's logic is impeccable: "However, although he was excited by the planes, the images of WWII battles also frightened him, and they soon began to give him nightmares about being trapped in a plane on fire." So parents beware: Don't take your young children to see WWII planes! Yes, and children can also have nightmares about dogs, cats, movies, cars, tigers, thunderstorms, grizzly bears, TV shows, trains, etc, etc, etc. Welcome to the real world. When a child goes to a museum, and is told about fighter pilots being killed in combat, is it too much of a stretch to imagine that a child could have nightmares about this?? No really, is it?
Ripley Twenty-Nine Muse Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 849

26th July 2006, 08:34 AM	#20
KingMerv00 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 14,458	Is it me or do the parents seem to think that their child is a dingbat? He knew what a drop tank was. Big *********** deal. I knew someone who could give the Latin names of the all plants in their back yard when they were a kid. Why do people always think that children are complete idiots? Hmm...on second thought, they do make him watch teletubbies. Isn't he a bit old for that "show"?

26th July 2006, 08:41 AM	#21
Bronze Dog Copper Alloy Canid Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4,993	Originally Posted by Rodney Yep, the "prosaic" version's logic is impeccable: "However, although he was excited by the planes, the images of WWII battles also frightened him, and they soon began to give him nightmares about being trapped in a plane on fire." So parents beware: Don't take your young children to see WWII planes! Yeah. Let's just shelter them in a blank white cubical room and only show them Teletubbies. How about the REAL lesson: Don't over-interpret perfectly normal dreams.
	__________________ Stop Sylvia Browne Warning: Beware of contaminated water supplies! Suspected source of contamination: Sarah-I A non-Rockstar Rambler and dissector of Doggerel

26th July 2006, 09:26 AM	#22
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,274	gumboot: Great research - thanks. I'll update the blog post.
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,274	__________________ Read: Skeptico - Critical thinking for an irrational world

26th July 2006, 09:48 AM	#23
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,274	Originally Posted by Rodney Yep, the "prosaic" version's logic is impeccable: "However, although he was excited by the planes, the images of WWII battles also frightened him, and they soon began to give him nightmares about being trapped in a plane on fire." Glad you finally saw sense.
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26th July 2006, 10:02 AM	#24
Rodney Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,942	Originally Posted by RichardR gumboot: Great research - thanks. I'll update the blog post. Certainly as great as the blog post -- no question about that.
Rodney Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,942

26th July 2006, 10:08 AM	#25
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,274	Originally Posted by Rodney Unfortunately, your research came up much shorter than the father's. See this article -- http://www.ntcsites.com/acadianhouse...ature_24_3.htm -- which notes that James didn't explicitly state that he died on a Corsair -- only that he flew Corsairs. Not quite true. From your link: Quote: From July to September of 2000, James began to tell his parents that the plane in his nightmares was shot down by the Japanese after it had taken off from a ship on the water. When James was asked if he knew who the pilot was, he simply replied “James.” Andrea asked James what type of plane he was flying in his dreams, and he said it was a “Corsair.” Then, after repeated attempts to push for more information right after the nightmares, Bruce and Andrea got the word “Natoma.” (My bold.) The plane in his nightmares where he was shot down - was a Corsair. Later: Quote: After vigorously checking into the squadron’s aircraft action records, he found out that Huston was shot down in a FM2 Wildcat fighter plane – not a Corsair Speaks for itself.
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,274	__________________ Read: Skeptico - Critical thinking for an irrational world

26th July 2006, 10:14 AM	#27
bjb Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,079	Rodney, what do you think of the possibility that the kid was asked leading questions and merely confirmed what he was expected to confirm? The article states: ...after repeated attempts to push for more information right after the nightmares, Bruce and Andrea got the word “Natoma.” It is clear to me that Bruce and Andrea are creating false memories in this kid. No wonder he has nightmares. What do you think about that, Rodney?
bjb Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,079

26th July 2006, 10:21 AM	#28
Ripley Twenty-Nine Muse Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 849	Originally Posted by bjb Rodney, what do you think of the possibility that the kid was asked leading questions and merely confirmed what he was expected to confirm? The article states: ...after repeated attempts to push for more information right after the nightmares, Bruce and Andrea got the word “Natoma.” It is clear to me that Bruce and Andrea are creating false memories in this kid. No wonder he has nightmares. What do you think about that, Rodney? Hey, Rodney isn't making any conclusions, just asking some questions.
Ripley Twenty-Nine Muse Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 849

26th July 2006, 10:49 AM	#29
Ashles Pith Artist Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The '80s Posts: 8,694	Originally Posted by Rodney Yep, the "prosaic" version's logic is impeccable: "However, although he was excited by the planes, the images of WWII battles also frightened him, and they soon began to give him nightmares about being trapped in a plane on fire." So parents beware: Don't take your young children to see WWII planes! What a weird thing to say. It seems perfectly acceptable to suggest that seeing a fighter plane might be followed by nightmares involving being trapped in one. You seem to be strangely opposed to this perfectly mundane explanation. When I was little I watched the pilot for Streethawk. That night I had a nightmare about being trapped under a pile of motorbikes. This doesn't lead to the conclusion that no children should be allowed to watch films involving motorbikes. Although it seems that you really just don't like the mundane possible explanation.
	__________________ With extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat. - Jeffrey Burton Russell It is obvious to any scientist that the bumblebee can fly because experiment proves it. - Zetie 1996

26th July 2006, 10:59 AM	#30
Bronze Dog Copper Alloy Canid Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4,993	I might be imagining this, but does it seem like Rodney's carrying around an enthymeme that children can't have vivid dreams?
	__________________ Stop Sylvia Browne Warning: Beware of contaminated water supplies! Suspected source of contamination: Sarah-I A non-Rockstar Rambler and dissector of Doggerel

26th July 2006, 11:00 AM	#31
Psiload Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,102	How long before this poor kid's parents jump on the "Indigo Children" bandwagon?
Psiload Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,102	__________________ You're not the boss of me.

26th July 2006, 11:06 AM	#32
Meffy Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,208	I'm less concerned for the parents, who seem already immersed in woo, than for the child whose life they might be screwing up. Hope the young'un is able to put this kind of silliness behind him and have a reasonably normal life. I did, despite how coooool it would've been if I'd actually had the psychic powers the U.Va. researchers said I had. But even when very young I understood the diff between reality and wishful thinking.
Meffy Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,208

26th July 2006, 11:30 AM	#33
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4,039	Originally Posted by Meffy I did, despite how coooool it would've been if I'd actually had the psychic powers the U.Va. researchers said I had. I don't know the motivations of your mother, but this raises an interesting general point... ... why do people look so hard for such mundane examples of woo? For example, if a parent couldn't predict every single lottery number, past and future, while simultaneously turning back time, why would they be proud that their child could show a better-than-average performance at guessing playing cards? Pretending for a moment that psychic abilities even exist, the first parents to have a genuinely powerful psychic child who can both stay ahead of them due to advanced telepathy and manipulate their environment through strong telekinesis will quickly go from being proud to manifestly terrified.
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4,039	__________________ This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key

26th July 2006, 11:47 AM	#34
Kaarjuus Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 252	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam Given the apparent abundance of psychic gifts, I wonder why nobody ever remembers future lives? Come on, get your feet back on the ground. Everybody knows reincarnation works in one way only.
Kaarjuus Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 252

26th July 2006, 11:48 AM	#35
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 21,629	Originally Posted by Jimbo07 ... why do people look so hard for such mundane examples of woo? Because everyone wants their children to be special (in a positive way). Quote: For example, if a parent couldn't predict every single lottery number, past and future, while simultaneously turning back time, why would they be proud that their child could show a better-than-average performance at guessing playing cards? Pretending for a moment that psychic abilities even exist, the first parents to have a genuinely powerful psychic child who can both stay ahead of them due to advanced telepathy and manipulate their environment through strong telekinesis will quickly go from being proud to manifestly terrified. I disagree. In my line of work, I meet a fair number of dumb parents with bright children, and no one seems to be terrified that their child has the ability to stay ahead of them and manipulate the enviroment through the astonishing power of sequencing and logical reasoning. They're typically much more proud of their child's gifts, even if they think that logical reasoning and a good memory are something magical. But if they're proud of "magical" intelligence, why not of precognition and telepathy?

26th July 2006, 11:51 AM	#36
Kaarjuus Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 252	Originally Posted by Rodney Yep, the "prosaic" version's logic is impeccable: "However, although he was excited by the planes, the images of WWII battles also frightened him, and they soon began to give him nightmares about being trapped in a plane on fire." So parents beware: Don't take your young children to see WWII planes! What's the problem here, really? You do not believe children can have nightmares about battles? I had nightmares about an old sinister fusebox at my aunt's house.
Kaarjuus Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 252