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Old 26th December 2007, 01:11 PM   #81
JamesB
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I have always wondered, as a completely layman on this issue, but what would be the metalurgical effect of a 500 MPH plane, composed largely of aluminum striking an aluminum and steel building at 500 MPH? Anyone who has ever tried to start a camp fire with flint and steel can observe the intense heat giving off by friction (at much lower energy levels). Could this account for any of the observed phenomena?
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Old 26th December 2007, 01:18 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Max Photon View Post
Good God, finally they each moved a pawn.

Masterful. Simply masterful!

Wrong! My first move was Nf6! (which you'll no doubt recognize as the classic Indian defense).


Quote:
So, since everyone here is basically really stupid - as, in a stupor, not like stupid stupid - - allow me to translate:

Not a writer, I see. That's ok, writing isn't for everyone! Many successful people are very clumsy with words.

Quote:
Dr. Jones is asking how the iron microspheres - evidence of molten iron - which in turn is evidence of temperatures of at least 1536 C - were formed in the WTC fires. (Remember, NIST's little fire video game only had fires that reached 1000 C.) Following this line of thinking, the presence of the [once molten] iron microspheres means one of the following:
  1. The WTC fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C;
  2. The debris field fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C (from forced-air situations, or chemical reactions, or "thermate residue", or some other energy source);
  3. Iron microspheres can form at temperatures lower that 1536 C.
So, here are some questions from the exchange thus far:
  1. Are iron microspheres iron-clad indicators that temperatures reached at least 1536 C, or can iron microspheres form at lower temperatures?
  2. If 1536 C were reached in the towers or the debris field, what generated this high temperature?

Jones' delivery boy? Well, I'm looking more for a raw scientific analysis like Crazy Chainsaw's post 78 or Apollo20's post 57 (which, seemingly, you've already read). After reading their analyses in this thread, do you really think they need an abridged, dumbed-down (pardon the crude expression---but it fits!) synopsis of Jones' work? Please, indulge us with your scientific analysis regarding micro-particles. I'm sure it would be quite edifying.


Quote:
Apollo - Well written, sincere, ... who wouldn't want to work with you?
Work for him? Because he made a decent message board post? Where's that "confused" smiley? Oh wait! I don't use smilies. Just know I'm perplexed.

Last edited by Mince; 26th December 2007 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 26th December 2007, 01:34 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Max Photon View Post
Ahem...

The same can be said of the NIST Reports.

Tsk tsk tsk on the arson unvestigation.

Coulda shoulda woulda.

Hmmmm. The expression "Bad behavior does not allow or excuse other bad behavior" comes to mind. Should I use it? Should I...? Yeah, what the heck.


Bad behavior does not allow or excuse other bad behavior.*



Analogous:

DGM said: Ted Bundy is a bad man and should be punished.

You said (essentially): But David Berkowitz was also a bad man before him, so it's ok.






*Please note I am not testifying to the authenticity of either body (NIST or Stephen Jones). I'm certainly not qualified.


P.S. You misspelled "investigation".


Regarding your sig: "Thermite was used - not to cut or melt WTC steel - but to heat-weaken splices and other connections.
Gradual, deliberate heat-weakening induced global instability in, and the collapse of the WTC towers. Thermite initiated and cloaked the controlled-demolitions, in plain view, with the whole world watching."

Certainly you have empirical proof of this thesis. You wouldn't proffer it if you didn't have empirical proof, right? I mean, you don't merely believe it just because "it's possible", or "could happen" or "makes sense", do you? I know, I know. You're going to tell me to go to your website. I have and I'm still looking for empirical proof. Let's have it!

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Old 26th December 2007, 01:34 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
I have always wondered, as a completely layman on this issue, but what would be the metalurgical effect of a 500 MPH plane, composed largely of aluminum striking an aluminum and steel building at 500 MPH? Anyone who has ever tried to start a camp fire with flint and steel can observe the intense heat giving off by friction (at much lower energy levels). Could this account for any of the observed phenomena?
Your instincts are good.

There would have been an amazing variety of metal and metal oxide spall from this event.
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Old 26th December 2007, 01:41 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
...

The micro spheres are one of the more valuable parts of the fly ash, and have been separated and sold for years before the fly ash goes into concrete.
Brilliant. Solves the problem completely. Thank you.
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Old 26th December 2007, 01:42 PM   #86
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Somewhere out there is a video of a college lecture where the professor bangs two balls together, one aluminum, the other steel with a light coating of rust. an impressive spark is emitted.
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Old 26th December 2007, 03:40 PM   #87
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How do iron-microspheres form in a 600 - 1000 C incinerator?

Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
I do not believe that a temperature of 1536 deg C (or higher!) is necessary to form iron-rich microspheres. These type of particles are formed in incinerators that never get above 1200 deg C. In fact most of the chemistry involved in forming microspheres takes place in the temperature range 600 - 1000 deg C, well within the range of temperatures expected for the WTC fires. Think about it, if a waste incinerator gets above 1536 deg C the incinerator walls, which are usually made of carbon steel or low alloy steels, will melt!

By what mechanism does one get (once-molten) iron microspheres from a chilly 600-1000 C incinerator?

This question is important because it appears (to me anyway) Jones is assuming iron microspheres are irrefutable evidence of formation temperatures of at least 1536 C.

* * *

Mince, I spelled arson unvestigation correctly, thank you.
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Old 26th December 2007, 03:42 PM   #88
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So what I am gathering, even from this limited discussion, is that iron microspheres can form at a number of temperatures, depending on the environment (chemical). A chemist has now provided his opinion that it takes much less than the 1536C Jones (I assume) suggests is needed, and in particular points to incinerators as a prime example.

Well I agree everyone, it is clearly Jone's next move. In my opinion, he should either admit his spherules prove nothing and drop it, or should provide his data for others to verify or refute...EOS.

TAM
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Old 26th December 2007, 03:43 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Max Photon View Post
By what mechanism does one get (once-molten) iron microspheres from a chilly 600-1000 C incinerator?

This question is important because it appears (to me anyway) Jones is assuming iron microspheres are irrefutable evidence of formation temperatures of at least 1536 C.

* * *

Mince, I spelled arson unvestigation correctly, thank you.
The spheres are present in items around us! They are released when things are smashed up. Like when the WTC towers fell! So you need not temperature on 9/11 to form the spheres, they were already there!
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Old 26th December 2007, 03:43 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Max Photon View Post
By what mechanism does one get (once-molten) iron microspheres from a chilly 600-1000 C incinerator?
Excellent question, which I hope Dr. Greening or CC can answer.

TAM
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Old 26th December 2007, 04:05 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Max Photon View Post
The Purina-feed factory-farmed trout are starting to circle...
Umm..Max? Is this yours?..:

Quote:
Thanks Mikillini. I would add:

Thermite fuse ignited by jet impact also works beautifully with LIHOP. A net could have covered the towers, so that wherever the jets hit, the fuses could be ignited to induce thermite-based heat-weakening only on impact floors. So, despite what Mikillini says, my collapse initiation mechanisms do not depend on MIHOP, and do not depend on remote controlled jets.

Second, I am not trying to convince people of anything. People convince themselves. I'm just trying to make people think.

Third, even if MAX-MIHOP is incorrect, there is tremendous value in pushing different hypotheses are far as they can go. Even models that ultimately fail often reveal the strengths and weaken of superior models. More important, the clash of models can trigger major revelations.


Fourth, "inside job" is a possible solution to the problem. Therefore, it is important to prove up the best possible inside job scenario. That is what MAX-MIHOP tries to do.
Are you ruling out fly ash already Max? Or do you just believe CC's experiments have no credible merit to make people think, including yourself?
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Old 26th December 2007, 04:11 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer View Post
Somewhere out there is a video of a college lecture where the professor bangs two balls together, one aluminum, the other steel with a light coating of rust. an impressive spark is emitted.
http://chemistry.about.com/od/demons...idmagnet_3.htm
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Old 26th December 2007, 04:25 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Max Photon View Post
This question is important because it appears (to me anyway) Jones is assuming iron microspheres are irrefutable evidence of formation temperatures of at least 1536 C.
.
Jones assuming? Never! It's not like him to make incorrect assertions...
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Old 26th December 2007, 04:51 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Max Photon View Post
Good God, finally they each moved a pawn.

Masterful. Simply masterful!


So, since everyone here is basically really stupid - as, in a stupor, not like stupid stupid - - allow me to translate:

Dr. Jones is asking how the iron microspheres - evidence of molten iron - which in turn is evidence of temperatures of at least 1536 C - were formed in the WTC fires. (Remember, NIST's little fire video game only had fires that reached 1000 C.) Following this line of thinking, the presence of the [once molten] iron microspheres means one of the following:
  1. The WTC fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C;
  2. The debris field fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C (from forced-air situations, or chemical reactions, or "thermate residue", or some other energy source);
  3. Iron microspheres can form at temperatures lower that 1536 C.
So, here are some questions from the exchange thus far:
  1. Are iron microspheres iron-clad indicators that temperatures reached at least 1536 C, or can iron microspheres form at lower temperatures?
  2. If 1536 C were reached in the towers or the debris field, what generated this high temperature?
* * *

Apollo - Well written, sincere, ... who wouldn't want to work with you?

e^n - I know you have respect for me, so you never need qualify your posts. Perhaps our discussion would better fit on my thermite-in box-columns thread.


Max, why do you presume the necessity of translating for an audience consisting of many people who know far more than you do?
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Old 26th December 2007, 04:55 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Max Photon View Post
By what mechanism does one get (once-molten) iron microspheres from a chilly 600-1000 C incinerator?

This question is important because it appears (to me anyway) Jones is assuming iron microspheres are irrefutable evidence of formation temperatures of at least 1536 C.

* * *

Mince, I spelled arson unvestigation correctly, thank you.
It is not iron the Micro spheres are magnetite, Iron oxide Fe 304



page ten.

http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/...C/10180692.PDF

Magnehemite is a rare earth mineral, but found in great abundance on mars.
It makes mars red, Dr. Jones simply does not understand simple Chemistry.

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Old 26th December 2007, 05:00 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Max Photon View Post

Mince, I spelled arson unvestigation correctly, thank you.

But you (apparently) missed my bit of sarcasm!

You're welcome.
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Old 26th December 2007, 05:57 PM   #97
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Waiter, there's a fly in my microspheres. AND they're cold.

Originally Posted by MIKILLINI View Post

Are you ruling out fly ash already Max?

Oh no, not at all!

I was asking about the formation temperature of iron microspheres from the perspective that (I believe) Jones is coming from (that the spherules were formed either in the towers or in the debris, and not that they might have been formed at some other time/space/process).

I think Beachhut got the same wrong impression. Sorry about that.

But I think that Jones believes - and I may be incorrect - that the microspheres (assuming they were formed on 911) PROVE temperatures of at least 1536 C.

I think TAM got where I was coming from.
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Old 26th December 2007, 06:06 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Not the fuel of the vehicles it is another fuel though, however the machine that burns it is way bigger than a house, and never moves just creates steam and spins.
The US Senate?

<ouch!>
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Old 26th December 2007, 06:13 PM   #99
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Ironic answers to questions about microspheres

The formation of iron-rich microspheres below the m.p. of pure iron at ~ 1537 deg C is a complex process but is possible in an environment containing HCl/Cl2 and SO2/SO3 in the presence of O2 and H2O. Iron is transported as a volatile di or tri-chloride. FeCl2 has a m.p. of 677 deg C and allows "active" corrosion to occur with iron wastage rates as high as 100 g/m^2 per hour. The iron chloride is relatively unstable and decomposes but the iron does not wind up as a pure iron microsphere. As the very least it will be oxide (probably Fe3O4) coated and alloyed with other metals such as Al. Fly ash usually contains mullite, Al6Si2O13. This readily combines with iron oxide at ~ 1000 deg C to form an iron-rich aluminosilicate microsphere on cooling. Other elements such as K and Ca are also readily incorporated into these melts. This is the chemistry of CLAY minerals! As long as Jones' microspheres contain Si and/or K and Ca, they are NOT derived from thermite.
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Old 26th December 2007, 06:36 PM   #100
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Apollo..have you a concise compilation with the Plastimet fire chemistry data to compare with EPA and New York Board Of Health chemistry analysis of Ground Zero that would shed some light toward this?
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Old 26th December 2007, 09:14 PM   #101
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Just to add to My post above for clarification, would the chlorination species in the Plastimet fire compared to WTC rubble pile chlorinated species make for good comparison to determine differences in each respective buildings? Such as materials used in each buildings construction and the contents within each building.
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Old 26th December 2007, 09:15 PM   #102
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OK Frank now I have to disagree with you, sorry, I think that since there was very little clay in the fire at the twin towers, that aluminum silicate in the fly ash of the concrete might have played the role of clays, along with the chlorides and sulfates, to form the spheres similar to what happens in a waste incinerator.
You have chlorides and sulfates all over the buildings, Aluminum Chlorides and Ferric Chlorides in the paper, computers tons of plastics. Some plastics even use fly ash filler, UPS batteries, and drywall.
However this does lead us to the nasty prospect that sulfidication, and Chlorination of steel might have occurred in the fires to a limited existent.

From the link I posted before,
Quote:
Discussion: Bulk chemical and SEM microanalyses indicate that the cyclone deposits are
primarily an iron-aluminosilicate material. The bulk of the deposit is about 30 wt% SiO 2, 18 wt%
AI20 3, and 30 to 33 wt% Fe20 3. Titanium is also present between 3 and 4 weight percent.
The most likely cause of tbrmation of the deposits is the interaction of an iron compound with
aluminosilicates. The iron probably originated as pyrite or iron sulfides in the teed. The
aluminosilicates were probably present as clays in the teed. Iron in the form of FeS 2 is a strong
fluxing agent in a neutral or mildly reducing atmosphere. In oxidizing zones, FeS 2 will t),pically
produce SO 2 and form ferric oxide iFe203) at temperatures near 520°C. In reducing zones,
pyrite (FeS 2) forms a partial melt of ferrous sulfide (FeS) beginning at about 280°C and
continuing to about 600°C. Iron oxides may also be reduced to the ferrous state at 540 °C. At
lower temperatures, FeS may react with aluminosilicates to form a relatively low-melting ferrous
metasilicate or form a ferrous orthosilicate. The low melting point of these materials may also
enhance formation of molten spheres of ash particles.
Even though the iron in the deposit is now in the Fe+3 state, there is evidence that at the time
of deposit formation it was in the Fe+2 state. The atomic structure of the bulk of the deposit is
that of the spinel mineral maghemite ('/-Fe203). In nature, this is a rare mineral which forms by
the oxidation of the spinel mineral magnetite (Fe304, or Fe203+FeO). Formation of the spinel
structure requires the presence of iron in the +2 state. The iron was probably oxidized to the +3
state after deposit formation, resulting in the transformation to the maghemite structure. The
original presence of iron in the +2 state is also supported by the relatively high titanium content of
the deposit. The relatively high titanium content of the deposit suggests that it may have
originally been magnetite (formed at a low oxygen fugacity), but was later oxidized to maghemite
under higher oxygen fugacities.
Now all I have to figure out is the other stuff that was in the air data and what the results of the experiments into the other micro spheres mean. Primarily the ones that include Zinc, as a major component.
Nice of Dr. Jones to finally admit that the Micro Spheres were to a large degree Oxygen. That indicates magnetite as I thought for a long time.
If Dr, Jones has found maghemite then the Nist fire tests were wrong, it indicates a high oxygen fire event that would only happen if the oxygen potentials are higher than what Nist stated. If that is true then the temperature of the fire was higher than indicated by Nist, that means that more fuels were consumed and that the rubble pile also had less carbon fuels for the duration of the burn in the rubble pile.
I just hope we have not traded one can of worms for another can of worms.
Well the next move is up to Dr. Jones, doubt it will be much of a surprise though, he will probably play up the Chips as proof of thermite only card he has left only move he can make.

Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
The formation of iron-rich microspheres below the m.p. of pure iron at ~ 1537 deg C is a complex process but is possible in an environment containing HCl/Cl2 and SO2/SO3 in the presence of O2 and H2O. Iron is transported as a volatile di or tri-chloride. FeCl2 has a m.p. of 677 deg C and allows "active" corrosion to occur with iron wastage rates as high as 100 g/m^2 per hour. The iron chloride is relatively unstable and decomposes but the iron does not wind up as a pure iron microsphere. As the very least it will be oxide (probably Fe3O4) coated and alloyed with other metals such as Al. Fly ash usually contains mullite, Al6Si2O13. This readily combines with iron oxide at ~ 1000 deg C to form an iron-rich aluminosilicate microsphere on cooling. Other elements such as K and Ca are also readily incorporated into these melts. This is the chemistry of CLAY minerals! As long as Jones' microspheres contain Si and/or K and Ca, they are NOT derived from thermite.
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Old 26th December 2007, 10:52 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by MIKILLINI View Post
Apollo..have you a concise compilation with the Plastimet fire chemistry data to compare with EPA and New York Board Of Health chemistry analysis of Ground Zero that would shed some light toward this?

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, Mikillini, but it might be useful.

http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/envision/techdocs/3598e.pdf
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Old 26th December 2007, 11:56 PM   #104
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Thanks for the link, LashL. I'll check it out.
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Old 27th December 2007, 02:26 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
The formation of iron-rich microspheres below the m.p. of pure iron at ~ 1537 deg C is a complex process but is possible in an environment containing HCl/Cl2 and SO2/SO3 in the presence of O2 and H2O... etc
But this complexity can be avoided if they were already there. Apollo, could you summarize your current hypothesis, it seems you have a different look than before.
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Old 27th December 2007, 05:37 AM   #106
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Microspheres can also form from in hot stack gasses, or so I recall from having looked at scrubbers once long ago.
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Old 27th December 2007, 06:16 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
OK Frank now I have to disagree with you, sorry, I think that since there was very little clay in the fire at the twin towers, that aluminum silicate in the fly ash of the concrete might have played the role of clays, along with the chlorides and sulfates, to form the spheres similar to what happens in a waste incinerator.
You have chlorides and sulfates all over the buildings, Aluminum Chlorides and Ferric Chlorides in the paper, computers tons of plastics. Some plastics even use fly ash filler, UPS batteries, and drywall.
There is also kaolin in carbonless copying paper and high-gloss paper. An aluminum-rich clay.
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Old 27th December 2007, 07:27 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Marry Christmas.
Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Do I have to?
I would, if it was Christmas Jones.
Points in favour:
1) Rowr.
2) Divorced twoofer Charlie Sheen
3) Is a nuclear physicist ... no, right, that was the movie. Darn.
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Old 27th December 2007, 08:59 AM   #109
T.A.M.
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Nutshell - lots of potential causes of said microspheres from the fires/collapses themselves.

I am gonna use Occam on this one, until Jones releases his data/samples for independent peer review/verification.

TAM
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Old 27th December 2007, 09:05 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
...
until Jones releases his data/samples for independent peer review/verification.
...
"Never admit to the Marks that you were wrong." - Old grifter saying.
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Old 27th December 2007, 09:12 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
There is also kaolin in carbonless copying paper and high-gloss paper. An aluminum-rich clay.
Does it really matter what I am finding out, is that fly ash would have naturally been in use at the site after 9/11/2001.
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/pavement/recycling/fach02.cfm
It could have been incorperated into many of the products used in the buildings, that were not tested by Dr. Jones.
The machine shop probibly had a blast cabinet and small parts tumbler that would have used magnetite.

Also guess who was a leader in the usage of non hydrated fly ash in Asphalt products including Asphalt roofing.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...51C1A96F948260
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Old 27th December 2007, 10:31 AM   #112
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Iron microspheres: Si, K, Ca, and S

Originally Posted by Apollo20 View Post
The formation of iron-rich microspheres below the m.p. of pure iron at ~ 1537 deg C is a complex process but is possible in an environment containing HCl/Cl2 and SO2/SO3 in the presence of O2 and H2O. Iron is transported as a volatile di or tri-chloride. FeCl2 has a m.p. of 677 deg C and allows "active" corrosion to occur with iron wastage rates as high as 100 g/m^2 per hour. The iron chloride is relatively unstable and decomposes but the iron does not wind up as a pure iron microsphere. As the very least it will be oxide (probably Fe3O4) coated and alloyed with other metals such as Al. Fly ash usually contains mullite, Al6Si2O13. This readily combines with iron oxide at ~ 1000 deg C to form an iron-rich aluminosilicate microsphere on cooling. Other elements such as K and Ca are also readily incorporated into these melts. This is the chemistry of CLAY minerals! As long as Jones' microspheres contain Si and/or K and Ca, they are NOT derived from thermite.

It is interesting to note that Dr. Jones' conjecture of thermAte is an artifact of his assumption that IF thermite were used, THEN it was used to cut (i.e. melt) steel.

The assumption of THERMITE=CUTTING led him to look for ways to make the horrendously inefficient process of thermite cutting more efficient. The adding of sulfur to produce thermAte was the intellectual path take. (Plus it seemed to fit with claims of sulfidation of steel.)

It turns out that S would play another role. Jerry Lobdill produced an Fe S phase diagram, and it shows a eutectic point at about 32%S, with a melting temperature below 1000C.

Now Jones claimed the molten metal pouring out of WTC2 was not aluminum, but iron.

But how can yellow iron flow? It would be frozen!

His answer was sulfur.

Do you see the picture? Thermate was being used to cut steel at WTC2's NE corner (remember this is the picture); thermate was chosen because the S helps the cutting process; the molten iron-sulfur product could flow - even at yellow to orange - because the S creates a eutectic with a melting temperature of just below 1000C.

By the way, Jones' physical experiments with thermate (with S, but not exactly at 32%) claim that the molten product flowed at yellow, and even at orange, adding support to Lobdill's Fe S phase diagram.

Last edited by Max Photon; 27th December 2007 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 27th December 2007, 11:32 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Max Photon View Post
It is interesting to note that Dr. Jones' conjecture of thermAte is an artifact of his assumption that IF thermite were used, THEN it was used to cut (i.e. melt) steel.

The assumption of THERMITE=CUTTING led him to look for ways to make the horrendously inefficient process of thermite cutting more efficient. The adding of sulfur to produce thermAte was the intellectual path take. (Plus it seemed to fit with claims of sulfidation of steel.)

It turns out that S would play another role. Jerry Lobdill produced an Fe S phase diagram, and it shows a eutectic point at about 32%S, with a melting temperature below 1000C.

Now Jones claimed the molten metal pouring out of WTC2 was not aluminum, but iron.

But how can yellow iron flow? It would be frozen!

His answer was sulfur.

Do you see the picture? Thermate was being used to cut steel at WTC2's NE corner (remember this is the picture); thermate was chosen because the S helps the cutting process; the molten iron-sulfur product could flow - even at yellow to orange - because the S creates a eutectic with a melting temperature of just below 1000C.

By the way, Jones' physical experiments with thermate (with S, but not exactly at 32%) claim that the molten product flowed at yellow, and even at orange, adding support to Lobdill's Fe S phase diagram.
That is why the spheres are to be expected, they are a product of low melt ferric compounds not of molten steel.
If they were a produce of molten steel they would be solid iron with out gassed carbon NOT Fe 304.
That is what I thought I was dealing with, such a particle could only occur at 1356c, at the least though oxidation of larger peaces producing out gassing of carbons.
The Critical temperature is the ignition point of steel in oxygen.
NOT the melting point.

Low melt Ferris are also why the floor pans might ignite along the electrical conduits.
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Old 27th December 2007, 11:36 AM   #114
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Max, there was an immense battery room in that corner at that floor that was full of charged batteries containing tons of sulfuric acid and lead acetate.

Try shorting a 12v, 2800 AH battery some time with a crowbar and see how much heat you get. (Don't do this from up close.)
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Old 27th December 2007, 11:57 AM   #115
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More Greening/Jones E-mails

Steven,

I guess you didn't spend too much time reading my last e-mail! You know the part where I said:

"Thus we see that MSW ash typically contains up to 21 % Si, 8 % Ca, 8 % Fe, 1 % K and 5 % Al. Spherical particles up to 60 microns in diameter have also been reported in MSW incinerator ash formed when this type of waste material is burned at ~ 1000 deg C".

I also provided a link to a site that includes micrographs of microspheres in MSW ash. Did you check the link out? I guess not!

And as for coal fired boilers, a little research will show you that iron-rich microspheres are a well documented component of coal fly ash even though pulverized coal combustion temperatures are less than 1400 deg C. So you must accept that iron-rich microspheres do not need temperatures of 1538 deg C or higher to form in a coal/wood/paper combustion environment. If you cannot accept this fact there is no point in continuing this "debate"

The formation of iron-rich microspheres below the m.p. of pure iron at ~ 1537 deg C is a complex process but is possible, indeed probable, in an environment containing HCl/Cl2 and SO2/SO3 in the presence of O2 and H2O. The WTC fires produced lots of HCl from the combustion of PVC and oxides of sulfur were present from sources such as lead acid batteries, residual fuel oil and gypsum. In such a chemical soup, iron is transported as volatile di or tri-chlorides. FeCl2 has a m.p. of 677 deg C and allows "active" corrosion to occur with iron wastage rates as high as 100 g/m^2 per hour. The iron chloride is relatively unstable and eventually decomposes but the iron does not wind up as a pure iron microsphere. At the very least it will be oxide coated, (probably with Fe3O4), and alloyed with other metals such as Al. Fly ash usually contains mullite, Al6Si2O13. Pure mullite has a high m.p., ~ 1828 deg C, but small additions of K2O and/or CaO lower the m.p to below 1200 deg C. These complex Al/Si/K/Ca/O phases readily combine with iron oxide at ~ 1000 deg C to form iron-rich calcium/potassium aluminosilicate microspheres on cooling. Steven, as long as your microspheres contain Si and/or K and Ca, they are NOT derived from thermite.

And on the topic of Si in commercial thermite, I was always under the impression that thermite is a mixture of finely divided iron oxide and aluminum with small amounts of accelerants/oxidizers based on K, Mn Sr or Ba compounds. You, on the other hand, claim this is NOT the case simply because you detected Si in your thermite combustion residues. Did you carry out your thermite tests in a sand pit? I ask this question not to be facetious; I simply wonder why anyone would add a silicon compound to thermite! Anyway, please provide a reference for your assertion that thermite usually contains Si - a manufacturer's analysis sheet would be helpful in this regard.....

One final comment:

May I recommend that you read two very interesting articles by Ken Kosanke et al.:

"Characterization of Pyrotechnic Reaction Residue Particles by SEM / EDS" in J. Forensic Sci. 48(3), 531 (2003)

"Pyrotechnic Reaction Residue Particle Analysis" in J. Forensic Sci. 51(2), 296 (2006).

These articles discuss the problem of identifying pyrotechnic reaction particles in the presence of soil or "dirt". On page 535 of the first article we read:

"Although a little too simplistic to make it a general rule, most common geologic particles will have silicon and calcium as the most prevalent X-ray peaks, whereas pyrotechnic material will generally have little, if any, of these elements present."

Then on page 299 of the second article we see two EDS spectra labelled as "Dirt" and "Dirt plus pyrotechnic reaction residues". The spectra are essentially identical with peaks, (in order of intensity), identified as: Si, Al, Fe, Ca, K, S.

We can debate this in the New Year, if you wish, but until you can show me that iron-rich microspheres COULD NOT be present in the WTC dust without "added" thermite, I think we won't have much to talk about!

Regards,

Frank


----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Jones
To: greening
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:55 PM
Subject: Re: High temps needed to form iron-rich spheres, meaning of ratios

Frank,

Your latest response ignores (again) my questions in (4.) below.

Further, you state: "Now this is indeed quite strange because Si is definitely NOT an ingredient of commercial thermite."

This statement is demonstrably incorrect, and indeed I demonstrated that Si is in fact a component of the sample of commercial thermite I tested -- both in the unreacted thermite sample (in with iron oxide chips) and in the spheres which formed from reacting the commercial thermite. This observation I made was and is important to the discussion. Experiments trump authoritative statements from you or anyone else.

I am leaning to suggest we take this discussion to a forum, such as PhysOrg, beginning January 2 (as I leave town tomorrow once more, and then will be with family for New Years' eve and day). This would also permit further posting of PPT slides, or EDS plots and SEM images, as I did some time ago on a forum of STJ911.org.

Let's think about this... Jan. 3 would be as soon as I could reasonably begin such a public discussion.

Steve

PS -- Carroll -- you will have to flesh out your question about PAC's and ferric chlorides, put into context of the WTC destruction, so I can fathom what you are asking when you say "What about PAC's..." etc.

Steven J

On Dec 24, 2007 9:16 AM, Steven Jones wrote:

"Only the very lowest melting substances form spheres." -- quoting directly from the figure caption of the spectrum you sent. I agree with THAT comment. The caption also mentions "metal foil" as part of the incinerated material, and I suspect melted aluminum would be present. NOT melted iron! Which leads again to the question I posed to you yesterday, based on the first spectrum you sent, which you seem to have thus far neglected:

4. This coal (your reference) was burned at high temperatures -- the caption refers to "high stoker temperature." This is a significant difference from the WTC fires -- or -- Are you claiming such high temps occurred in the WTC fires? Hot enough to produce iron-rich spheres? (Iron melts at 1538 C)

With regard to the lack of oxygen peaks in the older EDX machine you showed, I understand the difficulty these machines had -- and accept your explanation that an older EDX system was used for these spectra. The version I am using was installed very recently and is state-of-the-art. I will ask the lab director how good the oxygen percentages are in this new system.

Meanwhile, this new system does provide percentages of Fe, Al, Oxygen, etc.
So I have to ask -- what is the meaning of the ratios you provided, e.g.,

"Al : Si : S : K : Ca : Ti : Fe = 8 : 10 : 2 : 1 : 4 : 1 : 5"

When you answer this, we can make more direct comparisons with the percentages provided by the new EDS system. (Take your time as I'm traveling to be with family for Christmas. Merry Christmas! btw, and I wish you a speedy recovery as a friend tells me you had surgery recently.)

Thanks for the conversation.

Steven

PS -- some time ago, we crushed a concrete sample obtained from the WTC rubble, used magnetic concentration, and looked for iron-rich spheres. There were NONE found.

On Dec 24, 2007 7:39 AM, greening wrote:

Here is the incinerator ash spectrum. You will note that the caption reads "partly burned paper, wood, plastic, etc...

Frank
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Old 27th December 2007, 01:09 PM   #116
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UPS batteries on WTC2 Aisle 81

Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
Max, there was an immense battery room in that corner at that floor that was full of charged batteries containing tons of sulfuric acid and lead acetate.

Try shorting a 12v, 2800 AH battery some time with a crowbar and see how much heat you get. (Don't do this from up close.)

Oops. Too late.


Ben, while we are on this point, what is the most definitive evidence of the UPS batteries in WTC2 NE?

(Mind you, I'm not doubting anything or trying to catch you; I am genuinely asking what the best evidence is to support the claim.)
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Old 27th December 2007, 01:31 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Max Photon View Post
Oops. Too late.


Ben, while we are on this point, what is the most definitive evidence of the UPS batteries in WTC2 NE?

(Mind you, I'm not doubting anything or trying to catch you; I am genuinely asking what the best evidence is to support the claim.)
Well, the building plan modifications to that floor which significantly strengthened the floor in that corner (and indeed you had to be in a corner to add the sort of weight they were adding) which were labeled "UPS" is the big clue. And just to be sure, somebody checked with United Parcel Service and they had no facility there. The rest of the floor was rented by a bank which had a data-center.
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Old 27th December 2007, 01:33 PM   #118
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Also. Max, see here; http://11-settembre.blogspot.com/200...r-of-wtc2.html
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Old 27th December 2007, 01:42 PM   #119
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How Si could find its way into thermite-derived iron microspheres

Apollo20, (and Steven if you're reading this),


For the sake of discussion, let's say the iron microspheres WERE formed from thermite planted in the WTCs.

How did Si get in the iron microspheres?


I have put forth the notion that thermite was planted in some perimeter box columns at impact floors. I have describes several possible modes, ranging from just a little thermite to heat the bolts, to columns packed with thermite so that the (not-welded) bolt-access-hole covers would pop off from internal pressure upon ignition of the thermite, and the burning content would be spewed out onto piles of debris (thereby creating some of the long-lived, energetic "fires on piles of debris").

But why wouldn't the thermite burn through the bottom of the column?

Somewhere in the debris field that is my writings is a scenario in which the box columns were filled with sand or silica to the bottom of the lower bolt-access-hole (so there is about a foot of sand in the column). Thermite was then packed on top. When the thermite was ignited by All-Weather Max Photon-brand Thermite Fuse right near the bolt-access-hole, pressure popped off the cover, and the column became like a bulk thermite dispenser.

I have proposed that WTC2's 10-minute metal fire - which is located exactly at Column 301/81's bolt-access-hole - is in fact burning thermite being spewed onto the collected debris. (Note that the burn front is outside of the column, or right at the hole. Little thermite burns inside the column.)

The sand or silica source next to the burning thermite might account for:
  1. Thermite being able to be packed in columns, without melting the columns;
  2. Si being found in the iron microspheres (which formed as the thermite burned AND as the towers collapsed and dispersed molten material);
  3. No evidence of iron in the bottom of the columns (not that anyone looked).

Not TAM simple, but hey, even Apollo20 said the formation of iron microspheres (Now with Si ! ) below iron's melting point of 1536 C is a - Class? - that's right - a "complex process."


(I really have quite an imagination, don't I?)


Max
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Old 27th December 2007, 02:08 PM   #120
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Did UPS banks create WTC2's Cold Spot?

Thanks Ben. I had seen Henry's fine piece before. I was wondering if there were other sources.

By the way, I'm always puzzled why some are happy to accept the presence of UPS banks, yet resistant to the idea that the UPS banks served as an obstacle to the jet's path, thereby helping to create the Cold Spot, with debris on either side.


Fortunately, NIST modeled this major source of mass ; )
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