[Ed] Rob Menard's FOTL Claims - Page 4

jargon buster · 21st June 2010, 12:53 PM

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121795
68 views on this thread up to now and only one person has commented.
Maybe they are actually too embarrassed to admit that the great Rob Menard has burst his own bubble.

JB/Asky

Jekyll's Guest · 21st June 2010, 02:23 PM

Can someone, very concisely, lay out what this guy is after and what his 'society' is about?

I clicked on the website main page and went instantly snow blind.

There were some kind of blocks of text with nonsense, seemingly written by a child, and my brain and eyes signed a pact to stop processing it.

As I read trash sci-fi for fun, this is quite an achievement in of itself. Maybe he could make money writing unbreakable code for secret documents?

LightinDarkness · 21st June 2010, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by jargon buster

Do you want to post that on my new forum or can I post it with your blessing?
http://freemantruthmovement.co.cc/forum.php

Regards JB/Asky

You can feel free to post it wherever youd like I'd love to join your forum, I just have to many forums to keep track of as it is. Of course, since you consent to statue law

I don't have to worry about you stealing my ideas like I would a freeman.

LightinDarkness · 21st June 2010, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest

Can someone, very concisely, lay out what this guy is after and what his 'society' is about?

I clicked on the website main page and went instantly snow blind.

There were some kind of blocks of text with nonsense, seemingly written by a child, and my brain and eyes signed a pact to stop processing it.

As I read trash sci-fi for fun, this is quite an achievement in of itself. Maybe he could make money writing unbreakable code for secret documents?

Its quite a challenge to condense this level of woo into a concise statement of belief, but here is my attempt:

Freeman on the land is a belief system that says we are all subject to a massive, international conspiracy perpetrated by the legal system. Since its inception, the legal system has existed solely to keep us down and for the profits of the elites. Courts are set up only to suppress our natural freedom by not telling us that there is a difference between human beings and persons. Persons are legal fiction straw mans that are separate from flesh and blood human beings. What the court doesn't tell you is that you can decline to consent with ALL statue law because you are a human being and not a person. The only type of law freeman human beings are subject to is common law, which has actually nothing to do with common law as the sheeple know it but instead a nebulous concept of natural law where one only has committed a crime if a direct, attributed harm can be done to them.

What this all means, practically, is that freeman on the land do not have to pay any of their obligations (taxes, credit cards, mortgages, etc.) because we were all deceived (see: transnational global plot mentioned in first sentence) and there are Latin legal maxims that say the man can't do that to us. It also means freeman on the land are not subject to any law where they do not directly harm someone. For example, in the freeman world, drunk driving is allowed and not discouraged because no harm is caused by drunk driving until you kill someone. It is only after you kill someone by drunkg driving that you have committed a freeman offense against the common law (which in their world is again just some odd notion of natural law and nothing like real common law).

And those are just the basics. It is truly one of the most inane woo beliefs out there, in my opinion.The basic thing is that they think they cannot be held to ANY law without their consent.

Captain_Swoop · 21st June 2010, 03:42 PM

Don't forget the 'Bond'
When you are born you are given a Birth Certificate. This is traded as a Stock, If you know how you can claim your 'Bond' the money thet your 'Stock' is valued at.
Your Birth certificate is actualy your 'Person'

Add in the idea that US courts are actualy 'Admiralty' courts with no juristiction on a Freeman 'On the Land' If you go into the court and 'cross the bar' you enter their ship and give them juristiction over you.

It's all to do with some strange theory that the USA is still subject to the British Crown. (But its a secret)

LightinDarkness · 21st June 2010, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Don't forget the 'Bond'
When you are born you are given a Birth Certificate. This is traded as a Stock, If you know how you can claim your 'Bond' the money thet your 'Stock' is valued at.
Your Birth certificate is actualy your 'Person'

Add in the idea that US courts are actualy 'Admiralty' courts with no juristiction on a Freeman 'On the Land' If you go into the court and 'cross the bar' you enter their ship and give them juristiction over you.

It's all to do with some strange theory that the USA is still subject to the British Crown. (But its a secret)

Yep, those are very important core points to this mythology. Thanks for reminding us - as I said, there is so much woo in FMOTL that sometimes its hard for me to keep track of it all

.

The FMOTLers believe these birth certificate bonds are worth millions and were sold by all world governments in evil plot to enslave them. What they are doing in reality is entering the government codes on their birth certificates (varies by jurisdiction) and occasionally one of them will match a mutual fund number, since there are so many mutual funds out there. When this happens, they proclaim they have found "proof." FMOTL leaders like Menard claim they can access the bond and will gladly tell you - for a $250 fee. Of course, if he knew how to do this and if it were real he could claim his own bond and offer all this knowledge for free.

The admiralty thing is probably the funniest because it leads to the most bizarre behavior in court interactions that ALWAYS leaves the freeman in a worse state than he was before. Simple parking tickets and drug possession charges turn into contempt of court and result in maximum penalties and jail time because the woos refuse to acknowledge the judge, try to demand the judge recite their oaths right then and there in front of them, file hundreds of pages of frivolous legal documents that have no legal impact (Notice of Intent, Claim of Right, etc.), etc.

dudalb · 21st June 2010, 05:26 PM

If Rob is not careful, he could end up like this bunch of freeman:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Freemen

LightinDarkness · 21st June 2010, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

If Rob is not careful, he could end up like this bunch of freeman:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Freemen

One of the wiki sources lead to this long but interesting story:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/fea...805.carey.html

A must read on the history of this "movement" and it gets its adherents into MUCH more trouble than they started out with.

Sledge · 21st June 2010, 07:19 PM

A little further Googling shows one of them got nine life terms plus sixty years. If you consider they faced the death penalty, I guess that could almost sorta be a victory?

Jekyll's Guest · 21st June 2010, 09:17 PM

LightinDarkness: thank you for the explanation.

Whew!

So, they're like the folks who think we don't need to pay federal taxes, but with massive head trauma.

LightinDarkness · 21st June 2010, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Sledge

A little further Googling shows one of them got nine life terms plus sixty years. If you consider they faced the death penalty, I guess that could almost sorta be a victory?

Yeah, the article noted that they drug out so many FMOTL arguments that prosecutors began to worry about time. Since, the level of evidence you'd need for the death penalty is very high (as it should be), the longer the court went through each and every frivolous legal woo motion the more time was expiring and peoples memories of events/police officers involved were retiring.

If it is one thing I do give FMOTL credit for, its delaying tactics. The court is so astounded at the level of stupidity in the arguments they often have to reschedule the case so the judge can figure out how to respond politely. I guess when it comes to capital punishment, delaying worked out this time. In other cases, delaying only tends to make the judge angry and end up in a harsher sentence though.

I'm sure now that were talking about it we'll find the woos on the DI or WFS forums talking about how this case was a victory because they ended up not getting the death penalty.

LightinDarkness · 21st June 2010, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest

LightinDarkness: thank you for the explanation.

Whew!

So, they're like the folks who think we don't need to pay federal taxes, but with massive head trauma.

I love that description! Yes, pretty much - and not just federal taxes, ANY tax or monetary obligation (credit cards, mortgages, loan payments, etc.).

Some people here have started referring to them as Freeloaders on the Land because of it, since essentially they tell you they have no trouble BENEFITING from government (many receive welfare/food stamp benefits), they just decline "consent" to pay anything into the system.

Jekyll's Guest · 21st June 2010, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by LightinDarkness

Some people here have started referring to them as Freeloaders on the Land because of it, since essentially they tell you they have no trouble BENEFITING from government (many receive welfare/food stamp benefits), they just decline "consent" to pay anything into the system.

My 3 year old is much the same.

I'll be sure not to keep him in a box till he's 21, and he should grow out of it.

Hans · 22nd June 2010, 12:31 AM

Well done JB and Light - good of you to use their own 'fails' to point out the stupidity of their woo and to protect people from using this nonsense and damaging their lives

gtm · 22nd June 2010, 03:12 AM

Menard, St Clair & John Harris & all the other prominent FMOTL 'leaders' should be named & shamed as much as possible.

They make money out of the naive & desperate people who come to them for help. Their 'legal advice' is worse than useless because more often than not their 'knowledge' gets their unfortunate clients into a worse mess than they were in beforehand. FMOTL theories appeal to some of the more unattractive traits in human nature - greed, deception, fraud, irresponsibility, stupidity. It's out of order to cash in on this kind of thing.

BobHaulk · 22nd June 2010, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by gtm

Menard, St Clair & John Harris & all the other prominent FMOTL 'leaders' should be named & shamed as much as possible.

They make money out of the naive & desperate people who come to them for help. Their 'legal advice' is worse than useless because more often than not their 'knowledge' gets their unfortunate clients into a worse mess than they were in beforehand. FMOTL theories appeal to some of the more unattractive traits in human nature - greed, deception, fraud, irresponsibility, stupidity. It's out of order to cash in on this kind of thing.

i don't think they make any real money. I would bet that very few people actually buy manards package and just watch his routine on youtube.
I do care how it affects the nutters who try it, in fact i love it. Go to court, wave your wand and watch as your sentence or fine gets bigger, it's great. No, what bugs me is they think they are clever, think they are spiritual, think they, and only they, have special knowledge and you, as a thinking person who requires hard evidence, are a brainwashed slave.
Manarad knows it's all nonsense but tries to keep up his spiel, it's all he's got.

gtm · 22nd June 2010, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by BobHaulk

i don't think they make any real money. I would bet that very few people actually buy manards package and just watch his routine on youtube.
I do care how it affects the nutters who try it, in fact i love it. Go to court, wave your wand and watch as your sentence or fine gets bigger, it's great. No, what bugs me is they think they are clever, think they are spiritual, think they, and only they, have special knowledge and you, as a thinking person who requires hard evidence, are a brainwashed slave.
Manarad knows it's all nonsense but tries to keep up his spiel, it's all he's got.

Ray St Clair is a notorious conman involved with a a veritable legion of collapsed companies & seriously ********** off creditors. FMOTL is just another tool to pull the suckers in for him. Previously he was involved in selling lottery 'systems', titles of nobility & direct marketing.

John Harris is a less unsavoury character but does get paid to deliver speeches on his researches at 'woo' conferences. Aside from that he's a blithering idiot who can barely string a sentence together.

Menard is small fry compared the 1st 2 examples.

BobHaulk · 22nd June 2010, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by gtm

Ray St Clair is a notorious conman involved with a a veritable legion of collapsed companies & seriously ********** off creditors. FMOTL is just another tool to pull the suckers in for him. Previously he was involved in selling lottery 'systems', titles of nobility & direct marketing.

John Harris is a less unsavoury character but does get paid to deliver speeches on his researches at 'woo' conferences. Aside from that he's a blithering idiot who can barely string a sentence together.

Menard is small fry compared the 1st 2 examples.

They do provide great comedy. Much better than the 9/11 woo's.
If Heineken did conspiracies it would be the fmontl conspiracy

tsig · 22nd June 2010, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by BobHaulk

They do provide great comedy. Much better than the 9/11 woo's.
If Heineken did conspiracies it would be the fmontl conspiracy

Heineken does beer.

If you meant Heinlein then I'm not sure which side he'd be on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein

Captain_Swoop · 22nd June 2010, 12:50 PM

No he means Heineken. In the UK there was a series of ads based around 'If Heineken did X it would be the best X in the world'

Toke · 22nd June 2010, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

No he means Heineken. In the UK there was a series of ads based around 'If Heineken did X it would be the best X in the world'

As some kind of counterpoint to their effort with beer?

Captain_Swoop · 22nd June 2010, 03:07 PM

Their 'tag' line in the UK is 'Probably the Best Beer in the World'

carlitos · 22nd June 2010, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by Toke

As some kind of counterpoint to their effort with beer?

Funny. If Tuborg made cars, they would probably be the best cars in the world....

ComsatAngel2017 · 22nd June 2010, 03:47 PM

Thank you this thread. As the 9/11 forum has just about dried up and died in terms of "Point and Laugh", I find that FOTL nestles comfortably into the space previously occupied.

Also - Jargonbuster and LightInDarkness - two people you do *not* want to be your less-than-buddies.

jargon buster · 22nd June 2010, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Also - Jargonbuster and LightInDarkness - two people you do *not* want to be your less-than-buddies.

I havent even started yet.

JB/Asky

tsig · 22nd June 2010, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

No he means Heineken. In the UK there was a series of ads based around 'If Heineken did X it would be the best X in the world'

OK. That's my new fact for the day.Tnx

jargon buster · 22nd June 2010, 04:35 PM

Just sent Menard this e-mail

Quote:

Well, well Rob I knew you would take the bait.
Have you put this victory of yours on the WFS site?
Using Statute laws hey...

How many times have you said they are not really laws and the statutes require consent to be law.
So by your own definition, for the copyright act to have power for you, you must consent to it. (mutual consent creates the agreement doesnt it)

Not even your loyal followers on Ickes are backing you up,
You have a website and the terms and conditions of that site are to abide by statute law, if you didnt then they would have not allowed the site to go ahead.

Good luck Rob, youre going to need it from now on.

hee, hee, hee

Jargon Buster Asky

PS
A quote from Rob
"Never underestimate the power of dance"

Rob also wrote
"Just look at asky dance"

Maybe you should have been dancing too Rob

LightinDarkness · 22nd June 2010, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by Comsat Angel

Also - Jargonbuster and LightInDarkness - two people you do *not* want to be your less-than-buddies.

I am pretty relentless on the FMOTL woo - and honestly its because its a perfect example of how woo ruins lives. People have been thrown in jail and will carry around permanent criminal records due to following the advice of Menard et. al. In many cases, they would have been let go or never even been charged with more serious offenses if they had not begun harassing police/judges/lawyers from step 1.

Its different from other woo. Beleiving in aliens is woo, but its not going to materially impact your personal freedoms. It may make you paranoid, it may have negative psychosocial impact, but thats it. Freeman on the land ruins lives. Lives of gullible people - yes - but they are still people.

By the way, courtesy of the DI forum. A Canadian who uses the exact same "I am a human being not a person" mythology has been found guilty by Canadian courts:
http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/l...00618/20100618
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122080

My favorite part of the CTVBC story:

Quote:

David Kevin Lindsay, who also goes by the name David-Kevin: Lindsay, had appealed his 2008 conviction and sentencing on five counts of failing to file income tax returns. He argued the appeal on the grounds that he is not a "person" as defined by the Income Tax Act.

According to Thursday's ruling from Judge Frits Verhoeven, Lindsay filed a notice with the minister of national revenue in 2002 denying that he is a "person," and explaining that he ceased to be a "person" in 1996.

Instead, Lindsay argued that he is, "David-Kevin: Lindsay, a full liability free will flesh and blood living man."

In his judgment, Verhoeven rejected the idea that a Canadian citizen can simply opt out of personhood.

"The ordinary sense of the word ‘person' in the (Income Tax Act) is without ambiguity. It is clear that Parliament intended the word in its broadest sense," the judge wrote.

Rejected!

Sledge · 22nd June 2010, 06:24 PM

I can't even begin to imagine how frustrating it must be for the loons who genuinely believe this crud. They've spent all that time learning the magic words, and a judge just says "No." Then the police drag them off, and all the magic words do nothing. Wow.

LashL · 22nd June 2010, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by LightinDarkness

By the way, courtesy of the DI forum. A Canadian who uses the exact same "I am a human being not a person" mythology has been found guilty by Canadian courts:
http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/l...00618/20100618
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122080

My favorite part of the CTVBC story:

Rejected!

Indeed. I'm also pleased to see that Lindsay has been designated a vexatious litigant. Idiots who bring all manner of frivolous lawsuits are a real drain on the system and cost honest taxpayers (i.e., non-FreeloadersOnTheLand) a lot of money. It's a very good thing when they are precluded from continuing to do so.

LightinDarkness · 23rd June 2010, 07:43 AM

I agree, LashL - by the way, since you are the Resident Legal Goddess (TM)

, would you agree that using the Freeman logo would indeed be exempted under DMCA fair use, as long as they are given attribution? (see below)

JB, I've been thinking about this and although Menard's actions showed that he is under statute law because his images are, I think its time to turn the tables around on them. You have a right under the DMCA to use images explicitly for parody purposes, it falls under the fair use provision. Since that is exactly what you are doing, you should repost it.

Google took it down because its an automated type thing for them. Put it up again and put:

"Copyright: The above image is the original work of Rob Menard and the World Freeman Society and is protected under statute law. Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, it is displayed here legally under fair use provisions in a non-profit capacity for educational purposes (17 U.S.C. 107)."

If he reports it again, Google will have to take a look at it and actually contact you instead of removing it automatically (which is what they do for DMCA reports). Just tell them you are not claiming ownership and understand that it is protected by statute law, you are just using it under the fair use exemptions of the DMCA.

He basically slapped himself in the face by reporting this to google, now hes going to have to slap himself again - the image is only protected by the DMCA, which is statute law, if he does not consent to it he cannot report it to be removed.

Aitch · 23rd June 2010, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

No he means Heineken. In the UK there was a series of ads based around 'If Heineken did X it would be the best X in the world'

Carlsberg.

eg:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Dave_46 · 23rd June 2010, 09:40 AM

Sorry, but I couldn't resist

Originally Posted by LightinDarkness

<snip>
Google took it down because its an automated type thing for them. Put it up again and put:

"Copyright: The above image is the original work of Rob Menard and the World Freeman Society and is protected under statute law. Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, it is displayed here legally under fair use provisions in a non-profit capacity for educational purposes (17 U.S.C. 107)."

<snip>

Are these "magic words" to avoid the juristiction of the Admiralty Courts?

Dave

tsig · 23rd June 2010, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Sledge

I can't even begin to imagine how frustrating it must be for the loons who genuinely believe this crud. They've spent all that time learning the magic words, and a judge just says "No." Then the police drag them off, and all the magic words do nothing. Wow.

Their hearts and souls are free and they're doing it in the name of a great cause.

At some point they're too committed to admit they're wrong. It's easier to sit in prison than undergoing the ego shattering experience of admitting you were conned.

Elizabeth I · 23rd June 2010, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

Their hearts and souls are free and they're doing it in the name of a great cause.

At some point they're too committed to admit they're wrong. It's easier to sit in prison than undergoing the ego shattering experience of admitting you were conned.

That's very true. The longer you believe in something, the more committed you become to continuing to believe in it.

BaaBaa · 23rd June 2010, 07:03 PM

I joined the Icke forums the other day and I will have to be careful. It's not the specious reasoning or the poorly thought out legal opinions that irk me. It's the rampant spelling errors and horrible sentence structure. FFS, how can I take you seriously if you can't be arsed to form a simple declarative sentence or to spellcheck properly. Surely, that must fall under this 'due diligence' they prate about, yeah?

LightinDarkness · 24th June 2010, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by Dave_46

Sorry, but I couldn't resist

Are these "magic words" to avoid the juristiction of the Admiralty Courts?

Dave

Indeed, they are the ritual of involving mysterious statute law to defeat scripted responses by Google.

LightinDarkness · 24th June 2010, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by BaaBaa

I joined the Icke forums the other day and I will have to be careful. It's not the specious reasoning or the poorly thought out legal opinions that irk me. It's the rampant spelling errors and horrible sentence structure. FFS, how can I take you seriously if you can't be arsed to form a simple declarative sentence or to spellcheck properly. Surely, that must fall under this 'due diligence' they prate about, yeah?

You also have to be careful in the FMOTL forum. The moderator there has actively declared her intention to ban anyone who doesn't agree with FMOTL woo. She starts going through your posts and giivng you "warnings" for things you didn't actually do until its enough to get the higher up moderators to ban you.

Captain_Swoop · 24th June 2010, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by Aitch

Carlsberg.

eg:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Yes you are right. Why did I think heineken.

They are supposedly the beer that reaches parts that other beers can't.

jargon buster · 29th June 2010, 07:31 AM

Just look how desperate Menard is to have his ego massaged.
Can you believe he actually started this thread.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122789

JB/Asky

21st June 2010, 12:53 PM	#121
jargon buster Banned Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,773	http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121795 68 views on this thread up to now and only one person has commented. Maybe they are actually too embarrassed to admit that the great Rob Menard has burst his own bubble. JB/Asky
jargon buster Banned Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,773

21st June 2010, 07:19 PM	#129
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 7,114	A little further Googling shows one of them got nine life terms plus sixty years. If you consider they faced the death penalty, I guess that could almost sorta be a victory?
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 7,114	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

22nd June 2010, 12:31 AM	#134
Hans Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,910	Well done JB and Light - good of you to use their own 'fails' to point out the stupidity of their woo and to protect people from using this nonsense and damaging their lives
Hans Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,910

22nd June 2010, 03:12 AM	#135
gtm Muse Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 620	Menard, St Clair & John Harris & all the other prominent FMOTL 'leaders' should be named & shamed as much as possible. They make money out of the naive & desperate people who come to them for help. Their 'legal advice' is worse than useless because more often than not their 'knowledge' gets their unfortunate clients into a worse mess than they were in beforehand. FMOTL theories appeal to some of the more unattractive traits in human nature - greed, deception, fraud, irresponsibility, stupidity. It's out of order to cash in on this kind of thing.
gtm Muse Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 620

22nd June 2010, 04:50 AM	#136
BobHaulk Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 686	Originally Posted by gtm Menard, St Clair & John Harris & all the other prominent FMOTL 'leaders' should be named & shamed as much as possible. They make money out of the naive & desperate people who come to them for help. Their 'legal advice' is worse than useless because more often than not their 'knowledge' gets their unfortunate clients into a worse mess than they were in beforehand. FMOTL theories appeal to some of the more unattractive traits in human nature - greed, deception, fraud, irresponsibility, stupidity. It's out of order to cash in on this kind of thing. i don't think they make any real money. I would bet that very few people actually buy manards package and just watch his routine on youtube. I do care how it affects the nutters who try it, in fact i love it. Go to court, wave your wand and watch as your sentence or fine gets bigger, it's great. No, what bugs me is they think they are clever, think they are spiritual, think they, and only they, have special knowledge and you, as a thinking person who requires hard evidence, are a brainwashed slave. Manarad knows it's all nonsense but tries to keep up his spiel, it's all he's got.
BobHaulk Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 686

21st June 2010, 02:23 PM	#122
Jekyll's Guest Master Poster Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,207	Can someone, very concisely, lay out what this guy is after and what his 'society' is about? I clicked on the website main page and went instantly snow blind. There were some kind of blocks of text with nonsense, seemingly written by a child, and my brain and eyes signed a pact to stop processing it. As I read trash sci-fi for fun, this is quite an achievement in of itself. Maybe he could make money writing unbreakable code for secret documents?

21st June 2010, 03:07 PM	#123
LightinDarkness Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,583	Originally Posted by jargon buster Do you want to post that on my new forum or can I post it with your blessing? http://freemantruthmovement.co.cc/forum.php Regards JB/Asky You can feel free to post it wherever youd like I'd love to join your forum, I just have to many forums to keep track of as it is. Of course, since you consent to statue law I don't have to worry about you stealing my ideas like I would a freeman.

21st June 2010, 03:19 PM	#124
LightinDarkness Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,583	Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest Can someone, very concisely, lay out what this guy is after and what his 'society' is about? I clicked on the website main page and went instantly snow blind. There were some kind of blocks of text with nonsense, seemingly written by a child, and my brain and eyes signed a pact to stop processing it. As I read trash sci-fi for fun, this is quite an achievement in of itself. Maybe he could make money writing unbreakable code for secret documents? Its quite a challenge to condense this level of woo into a concise statement of belief, but here is my attempt: Freeman on the land is a belief system that says we are all subject to a massive, international conspiracy perpetrated by the legal system. Since its inception, the legal system has existed solely to keep us down and for the profits of the elites. Courts are set up only to suppress our natural freedom by not telling us that there is a difference between human beings and persons. Persons are legal fiction straw mans that are separate from flesh and blood human beings. What the court doesn't tell you is that you can decline to consent with ALL statue law because you are a human being and not a person. The only type of law freeman human beings are subject to is common law, which has actually nothing to do with common law as the sheeple know it but instead a nebulous concept of natural law where one only has committed a crime if a direct, attributed harm can be done to them. What this all means, practically, is that freeman on the land do not have to pay any of their obligations (taxes, credit cards, mortgages, etc.) because we were all deceived (see: transnational global plot mentioned in first sentence) and there are Latin legal maxims that say the man can't do that to us. It also means freeman on the land are not subject to any law where they do not directly harm someone. For example, in the freeman world, drunk driving is allowed and not discouraged because no harm is caused by drunk driving until you kill someone. It is only after you kill someone by drunkg driving that you have committed a freeman offense against the common law (which in their world is again just some odd notion of natural law and nothing like real common law). And those are just the basics. It is truly one of the most inane woo beliefs out there, in my opinion.The basic thing is that they think they cannot be held to ANY law without their consent.

21st June 2010, 03:42 PM	#125
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,084	Don't forget the 'Bond' When you are born you are given a Birth Certificate. This is traded as a Stock, If you know how you can claim your 'Bond' the money thet your 'Stock' is valued at. Your Birth certificate is actualy your 'Person' Add in the idea that US courts are actualy 'Admiralty' courts with no juristiction on a Freeman 'On the Land' If you go into the court and 'cross the bar' you enter their ship and give them juristiction over you. It's all to do with some strange theory that the USA is still subject to the British Crown. (But its a secret)

21st June 2010, 04:04 PM	#126
LightinDarkness Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,583	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Don't forget the 'Bond' When you are born you are given a Birth Certificate. This is traded as a Stock, If you know how you can claim your 'Bond' the money thet your 'Stock' is valued at. Your Birth certificate is actualy your 'Person' Add in the idea that US courts are actualy 'Admiralty' courts with no juristiction on a Freeman 'On the Land' If you go into the court and 'cross the bar' you enter their ship and give them juristiction over you. It's all to do with some strange theory that the USA is still subject to the British Crown. (But its a secret) Yep, those are very important core points to this mythology. Thanks for reminding us - as I said, there is so much woo in FMOTL that sometimes its hard for me to keep track of it all . The FMOTLers believe these birth certificate bonds are worth millions and were sold by all world governments in evil plot to enslave them. What they are doing in reality is entering the government codes on their birth certificates (varies by jurisdiction) and occasionally one of them will match a mutual fund number, since there are so many mutual funds out there. When this happens, they proclaim they have found "proof." FMOTL leaders like Menard claim they can access the bond and will gladly tell you - for a $250 fee. Of course, if he knew how to do this and if it were real he could claim his own bond and offer all this knowledge for free. The admiralty thing is probably the funniest because it leads to the most bizarre behavior in court interactions that ALWAYS leaves the freeman in a worse state than he was before. Simple parking tickets and drug possession charges turn into contempt of court and result in maximum penalties and jail time because the woos refuse to acknowledge the judge, try to demand the judge recite their oaths right then and there in front of them, file hundreds of pages of frivolous legal documents that have no legal impact (Notice of Intent, Claim of Right, etc.), etc.

21st June 2010, 05:26 PM	#127
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 54,897	If Rob is not careful, he could end up like this bunch of freeman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Freemen

21st June 2010, 06:55 PM	#128
LightinDarkness Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,583	Originally Posted by dudalb If Rob is not careful, he could end up like this bunch of freeman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Freemen One of the wiki sources lead to this long but interesting story: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/fea...805.carey.html A must read on the history of this "movement" and it gets its adherents into MUCH more trouble than they started out with.

21st June 2010, 09:17 PM	#130
Jekyll's Guest Master Poster Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,207	LightinDarkness: thank you for the explanation. Whew! So, they're like the folks who think we don't need to pay federal taxes, but with massive head trauma.

21st June 2010, 09:27 PM	#131
LightinDarkness Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,583	Originally Posted by Sledge A little further Googling shows one of them got nine life terms plus sixty years. If you consider they faced the death penalty, I guess that could almost sorta be a victory? Yeah, the article noted that they drug out so many FMOTL arguments that prosecutors began to worry about time. Since, the level of evidence you'd need for the death penalty is very high (as it should be), the longer the court went through each and every frivolous legal woo motion the more time was expiring and peoples memories of events/police officers involved were retiring. If it is one thing I do give FMOTL credit for, its delaying tactics. The court is so astounded at the level of stupidity in the arguments they often have to reschedule the case so the judge can figure out how to respond politely. I guess when it comes to capital punishment, delaying worked out this time. In other cases, delaying only tends to make the judge angry and end up in a harsher sentence though. I'm sure now that were talking about it we'll find the woos on the DI or WFS forums talking about how this case was a victory because they ended up not getting the death penalty.

21st June 2010, 09:29 PM	#132
LightinDarkness Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,583	Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest LightinDarkness: thank you for the explanation. Whew! So, they're like the folks who think we don't need to pay federal taxes, but with massive head trauma. I love that description! Yes, pretty much - and not just federal taxes, ANY tax or monetary obligation (credit cards, mortgages, loan payments, etc.). Some people here have started referring to them as Freeloaders on the Land because of it, since essentially they tell you they have no trouble BENEFITING from government (many receive welfare/food stamp benefits), they just decline "consent" to pay anything into the system.

21st June 2010, 11:31 PM	#133
Jekyll's Guest Master Poster Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,207	Originally Posted by LightinDarkness Some people here have started referring to them as Freeloaders on the Land because of it, since essentially they tell you they have no trouble BENEFITING from government (many receive welfare/food stamp benefits), they just decline "consent" to pay anything into the system. My 3 year old is much the same. I'll be sure not to keep him in a box till he's 21, and he should grow out of it.

22nd June 2010, 05:51 AM	#137
gtm Muse Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 620	Originally Posted by BobHaulk i don't think they make any real money. I would bet that very few people actually buy manards package and just watch his routine on youtube. I do care how it affects the nutters who try it, in fact i love it. Go to court, wave your wand and watch as your sentence or fine gets bigger, it's great. No, what bugs me is they think they are clever, think they are spiritual, think they, and only they, have special knowledge and you, as a thinking person who requires hard evidence, are a brainwashed slave. Manarad knows it's all nonsense but tries to keep up his spiel, it's all he's got. Ray St Clair is a notorious conman involved with a a veritable legion of collapsed companies & seriously ********** off creditors. FMOTL is just another tool to pull the suckers in for him. Previously he was involved in selling lottery 'systems', titles of nobility & direct marketing. John Harris is a less unsavoury character but does get paid to deliver speeches on his researches at 'woo' conferences. Aside from that he's a blithering idiot who can barely string a sentence together. Menard is small fry compared the 1st 2 examples.
gtm Muse Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 620

22nd June 2010, 06:39 AM	#138
BobHaulk Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 686	Originally Posted by gtm Ray St Clair is a notorious conman involved with a a veritable legion of collapsed companies & seriously ********** off creditors. FMOTL is just another tool to pull the suckers in for him. Previously he was involved in selling lottery 'systems', titles of nobility & direct marketing. John Harris is a less unsavoury character but does get paid to deliver speeches on his researches at 'woo' conferences. Aside from that he's a blithering idiot who can barely string a sentence together. Menard is small fry compared the 1st 2 examples. They do provide great comedy. Much better than the 9/11 woo's. If Heineken did conspiracies it would be the fmontl conspiracy
BobHaulk Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 686

22nd June 2010, 09:41 AM	#139
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 39,049	Originally Posted by BobHaulk They do provide great comedy. Much better than the 9/11 woo's. If Heineken did conspiracies it would be the fmontl conspiracy Heineken does beer. If you meant Heinlein then I'm not sure which side he'd be on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein

22nd June 2010, 12:50 PM	#140
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,084	No he means Heineken. In the UK there was a series of ads based around 'If Heineken did X it would be the best X in the world'

22nd June 2010, 12:56 PM	#141
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 8,171	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop No he means Heineken. In the UK there was a series of ads based around 'If Heineken did X it would be the best X in the world' As some kind of counterpoint to their effort with beer?
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx.

22nd June 2010, 03:07 PM	#142
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 42,084	Their 'tag' line in the UK is 'Probably the Best Beer in the World'

22nd June 2010, 03:09 PM	#143
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 24,345	Originally Posted by Toke As some kind of counterpoint to their effort with beer? Funny. If Tuborg made cars, they would probably be the best cars in the world....

22nd June 2010, 03:47 PM	#144
ComsatAngel2017 Muse Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 897	Thank you this thread. As the 9/11 forum has just about dried up and died in terms of "Point and Laugh", I find that FOTL nestles comfortably into the space previously occupied. Also - Jargonbuster and LightInDarkness - two people you do not want to be your less-than-buddies.
ComsatAngel2017 Muse Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 897

22nd June 2010, 03:53 PM	#145
jargon buster Banned Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,773	Quote: Also - Jargonbuster and LightInDarkness - two people you do not want to be your less-than-buddies. I havent even started yet. JB/Asky
jargon buster Banned Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,773

22nd June 2010, 04:33 PM	#146
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 39,049	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop No he means Heineken. In the UK there was a series of ads based around 'If Heineken did X it would be the best X in the world' OK. That's my new fact for the day.Tnx

22nd June 2010, 04:35 PM	#147
jargon buster Banned Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,773	Just sent Menard this e-mail Quote: Well, well Rob I knew you would take the bait. Have you put this victory of yours on the WFS site? Using Statute laws hey... How many times have you said they are not really laws and the statutes require consent to be law. So by your own definition, for the copyright act to have power for you, you must consent to it. (mutual consent creates the agreement doesnt it) Not even your loyal followers on Ickes are backing you up, You have a website and the terms and conditions of that site are to abide by statute law, if you didnt then they would have not allowed the site to go ahead. Good luck Rob, youre going to need it from now on. hee, hee, hee Jargon Buster Asky PS A quote from Rob "Never underestimate the power of dance" Rob also wrote "Just look at asky dance" Maybe you should have been dancing too Rob
jargon buster Banned Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,773

22nd June 2010, 06:10 PM	#148
LightinDarkness Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,583	Originally Posted by Comsat Angel Also - Jargonbuster and LightInDarkness - two people you do not want to be your less-than-buddies. I am pretty relentless on the FMOTL woo - and honestly its because its a perfect example of how woo ruins lives. People have been thrown in jail and will carry around permanent criminal records due to following the advice of Menard et. al. In many cases, they would have been let go or never even been charged with more serious offenses if they had not begun harassing police/judges/lawyers from step 1. Its different from other woo. Beleiving in aliens is woo, but its not going to materially impact your personal freedoms. It may make you paranoid, it may have negative psychosocial impact, but thats it. Freeman on the land ruins lives. Lives of gullible people - yes - but they are still people. By the way, courtesy of the DI forum. A Canadian who uses the exact same "I am a human being not a person" mythology has been found guilty by Canadian courts: http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/l...00618/20100618 http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122080 My favorite part of the CTVBC story: Quote: David Kevin Lindsay, who also goes by the name David-Kevin: Lindsay, had appealed his 2008 conviction and sentencing on five counts of failing to file income tax returns. He argued the appeal on the grounds that he is not a "person" as defined by the Income Tax Act. According to Thursday's ruling from Judge Frits Verhoeven, Lindsay filed a notice with the minister of national revenue in 2002 denying that he is a "person," and explaining that he ceased to be a "person" in 1996. Instead, Lindsay argued that he is, "David-Kevin: Lindsay, a full liability free will flesh and blood living man." In his judgment, Verhoeven rejected the idea that a Canadian citizen can simply opt out of personhood. "The ordinary sense of the word ‘person' in the (Income Tax Act) is without ambiguity. It is clear that Parliament intended the word in its broadest sense," the judge wrote. Rejected!

22nd June 2010, 06:24 PM	#149
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 7,114	I can't even begin to imagine how frustrating it must be for the loons who genuinely believe this crud. They've spent all that time learning the magic words, and a judge just says "No." Then the police drag them off, and all the magic words do nothing. Wow.
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 7,114	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

22nd June 2010, 07:33 PM	#150
LashL Goddess of Legaltainment™ Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 35,959	Originally Posted by LightinDarkness By the way, courtesy of the DI forum. A Canadian who uses the exact same "I am a human being not a person" mythology has been found guilty by Canadian courts: http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/l...00618/20100618 http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122080 My favorite part of the CTVBC story: Rejected! Indeed. I'm also pleased to see that Lindsay has been designated a vexatious litigant. Idiots who bring all manner of frivolous lawsuits are a real drain on the system and cost honest taxpayers (i.e., non-FreeloadersOnTheLand) a lot of money. It's a very good thing when they are precluded from continuing to do so.

23rd June 2010, 07:43 AM	#151
LightinDarkness Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,583	I agree, LashL - by the way, since you are the Resident Legal Goddess (TM) , would you agree that using the Freeman logo would indeed be exempted under DMCA fair use, as long as they are given attribution? (see below) JB, I've been thinking about this and although Menard's actions showed that he is under statute law because his images are, I think its time to turn the tables around on them. You have a right under the DMCA to use images explicitly for parody purposes, it falls under the fair use provision. Since that is exactly what you are doing, you should repost it. Google took it down because its an automated type thing for them. Put it up again and put: "Copyright: The above image is the original work of Rob Menard and the World Freeman Society and is protected under statute law. Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, it is displayed here legally under fair use provisions in a non-profit capacity for educational purposes (17 U.S.C. 107)." If he reports it again, Google will have to take a look at it and actually contact you instead of removing it automatically (which is what they do for DMCA reports). Just tell them you are not claiming ownership and understand that it is protected by statute law, you are just using it under the fair use exemptions of the DMCA. He basically slapped himself in the face by reporting this to google, now hes going to have to slap himself again - the image is only protected by the DMCA, which is statute law, if he does not consent to it he cannot report it to be removed.
	Last edited by LightinDarkness; 23rd June 2010 at 07:49 AM.

23rd June 2010, 09:40 AM	#153
Dave_46 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: UK (south Bucks) Occasionally France (the Vendee) Posts: 1,048	Sorry, but I couldn't resist Originally Posted by LightinDarkness <snip> Google took it down because its an automated type thing for them. Put it up again and put: "Copyright: The above image is the original work of Rob Menard and the World Freeman Society and is protected under statute law. Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, it is displayed here legally under fair use provisions in a non-profit capacity for educational purposes (17 U.S.C. 107)." <snip> Are these "magic words" to avoid the juristiction of the Admiralty Courts? Dave

23rd June 2010, 09:55 AM	#154
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 39,049	Originally Posted by Sledge I can't even begin to imagine how frustrating it must be for the loons who genuinely believe this crud. They've spent all that time learning the magic words, and a judge just says "No." Then the police drag them off, and all the magic words do nothing. Wow. Their hearts and souls are free and they're doing it in the name of a great cause. At some point they're too committed to admit they're wrong. It's easier to sit in prison than undergoing the ego shattering experience of admitting you were conned.
	Last edited by tsig; 23rd June 2010 at 10:00 AM. Reason: changed last sentence

23rd June 2010, 06:37 PM	#155
Elizabeth I Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Defending the Alamo Posts: 9,930	Originally Posted by tsig Their hearts and souls are free and they're doing it in the name of a great cause. At some point they're too committed to admit they're wrong. It's easier to sit in prison than undergoing the ego shattering experience of admitting you were conned. That's very true. The longer you believe in something, the more committed you become to continuing to believe in it.

23rd June 2010, 07:03 PM	#156
BaaBaa Semi-literate hench-person Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,458	I joined the Icke forums the other day and I will have to be careful. It's not the specious reasoning or the poorly thought out legal opinions that irk me. It's the rampant spelling errors and horrible sentence structure. FFS, how can I take you seriously if you can't be arsed to form a simple declarative sentence or to spellcheck properly. Surely, that must fall under this 'due diligence' they prate about, yeah?
	__________________ "Damn, i think you are illeterate"