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Tags abortion issues , abortion laws , Texas issues

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Old 16th October 2021, 11:26 PM   #41
The Great Zaganza
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I wouldn't be surprised that when other States adopt the Texas Ban, they will include a rule of "mutal assistance" to bring the Evil Family Planners justice.
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Old 16th October 2021, 11:33 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Here some of the things you haven't thought of...
One thing I have thought of is that international drug dealers have been extradited into a US state in the past to face charges even if their activities were conducted outside of the US (the charge is typically related to importation). It is only necessary for the activity to also be illegal in the extraditing country.
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Old 16th October 2021, 11:38 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I wouldn't be surprised that when other States adopt the Texas Ban, they will include a rule of "mutal assistance" to bring the Evil Family Planners justice.
I don't think it will get that far. Merton's Law applies - even the pro-conservative SCOTUS has to realise that allowing a vigilante justice setup like this will backfire on them badly.

What would be to stop a Democrat state legislature from making it illegal to own firearms, and using the public to sue gun shops out of existence? What would prevent a Democrat state legislature from outlawing gasoline and diesel cars and and using the public to sue car dealers for selling them?
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Old 16th October 2021, 11:41 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I don't think it will get that far. Merton's Law applies - even the pro-conservative SCOTUS has to realise that allowing a vigilante justice setup like this will backfire on them badly.
Politically, at least. That's the main assurance against Roe v Wade getting completely overturned before it's already died a death of a thousand cuts, actually - the distinctly partisan judges that are acting on behalf of the larger interests of their party, rather than the country or political propaganda.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
What would be to stop a Democrat state legislature from making it illegal to own firearms, and using the public to sue gun shops out of existence? What would prevent a Democrat state legislature from outlawing gasoline and diesel cars and and using the public to sue car dealers for selling them?
What would stop Democrats from doing that? Democrats, generally.
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Old 16th October 2021, 11:49 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
One thing I have thought of is that international drug dealers have been extradited into a US state in the past to face charges even if their activities were conducted outside of the US (the charge is typically related to importation). It is only necessary for the activity to also be illegal in the extraditing country.
False equivalency -

1. Drug laws apply across multiple countries by international agreement.

Warning PDF 621KB
https://www.unodc.org/documents/hlr/...95_E_ebook.pdf

No such agreement exists for suing abortion providers.

2. Only the Federal government can apply for suspects to be extradited from another country. US States have no standing in this.

3. People can only be extradited for criminal offences, not civil offences. You can't extradite a person for a Lawsuit
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Old 17th October 2021, 12:34 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
False equivalency -

1. Drug laws apply across multiple countries by international agreement.

Warning PDF 621KB
https://www.unodc.org/documents/hlr/...95_E_ebook.pdf

No such agreement exists for suing abortion providers.

2. Only the Federal government can apply for suspects to be extradited from another country. US States have no standing in this.

3. People can only be extradited for criminal offences, not civil offences. You can't extradite a person for a Lawsuit
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Old 17th October 2021, 01:02 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No such agreement exists for suing abortion providers.
.... yet (if you are correct).

It was beyond your imagination that a state could skirt Roe vs Wade but Texas found a way. And that was just from the dumb politicians in the GOP. Imagine what politicians with brains could accomplish.
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:33 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
.... yet (if you are correct).

It was beyond your imagination that a state could skirt Roe vs Wade but Texas found a way. And that was just from the dumb politicians in the GOP. Imagine what politicians with brains could accomplish.
No you are making two mistakes

1. Confusing a Country with a State (as in a US state)

2. Taking what I said out of context... I will repeat
"1. Drug laws apply across multiple countries by international agreement.

Warning PDF 621KB
https://www.unodc.org/documents/hlr/...95_E_ebook.pdf

No such agreement exists for suing abortion providers."
You know damned well I was talking about an international agreement!

You keep doing this... cherry picking phrases from other people's posts, removing the context in which they were made, and re-purposing those phrases to fit your narrative. It is dishonest, and you do this so often that I can only conclude that it is intentional.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:29 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No you are making two mistakes

1. Confusing a Country with a State (as in a US state)
So there is no mechanism for extraditing people from one state to another?

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
2. Taking what I said out of context...
I don't have to respond to every personal opinion that you post.

Nothing you posted changes the fact that nobody knows what the aftermath of the Texan law will be. It could be struck down or it could be extended in ways that nobody has forecasted yet. The courts will have a large bearing on the law's future.
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Old 17th October 2021, 04:03 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So there is no mechanism for extraditing people from one state to another?
Lying again! You are intentionally misrepresenting what I said.

There is no mechanism for a State of the USA to extradite people from a Country.

Just as no State in your country has that power, and no Province in New Zealand has that power, so no State of the USA has that power either.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't have to respond to every personal opinion that you post.
There is a word for what you did - cherry picking a part of what I said, out of context in order to lie about what I meant... that word is "dishonest", so yes, if you do not have the intestinal fortitude to debate honestly by commenting on what I say IN CONTEXT, then I would just as soon you don't comment at all.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Nothing you posted changes the fact that nobody knows what the aftermath of the Texan law will be. It could be struck down or it could be extended in ways that nobody has forecasted yet. The courts will have a large bearing on the law's future.
Nothing I posted is remotely related to what you just claimed.
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Old 17th October 2021, 05:40 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I bet money they didn't phrase it the way you did.
Not does Warpie address the fact that the same religious nuts who are trying to stop safe and legal terminations are those trying to prevent access to contraception and sex education.
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Old 17th October 2021, 09:57 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I don't think it will get that far. Merton's Law applies - even the pro-conservative SCOTUS has to realise that allowing a vigilante justice setup like this will backfire on them badly.

What would be to stop a Democrat state legislature from making it illegal to own firearms, and using the public to sue gun shops out of existence?
The only thing that would stop the SCOTUS from stopping this is that, even in a Democratic state, lower courts would not even give it a chance to get that far.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
What would prevent a Democrat state legislature from outlawing gasoline and diesel cars and and using the public to sue car dealers for selling them?
Maybe SCOTUS. See above. Also, for the foreseeable future Democrats are about as likely to outlaw internal combustion engines in a state as they are likely to outlaw cows (that is, it's not going to happen).
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Old 18th October 2021, 11:13 AM   #53
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The Justice Department has formally asked the Supreme Court to overturn the law.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/18/polit...eal/index.html
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Old 18th October 2021, 12:32 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The Justice Department has formally asked the Supreme Court to overturn the law.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/18/polit...eal/index.html
Quote:
In addition to asking the justices to halt the law now, the government also wants the court to agree to hear oral arguments this term and decide for itself whether the law passes constitutional muster. If the justices were to agree to that request, it would raise the stakes in the dispute and bring final resolution to the case by the end of June.
This seems like a pretty extraordinary request?
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Old 18th October 2021, 12:36 PM   #55
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*Confused* It's literally asking the court to do it's most basic functional job.
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Old 18th October 2021, 04:13 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Lying again! You are intentionally misrepresenting what I said.

There is no mechanism for a State of the USA to extradite people from a Country.

Just as no State in your country has that power, and no Province in New Zealand has that power, so no State of the USA has that power either.
The United States would have to request extradition on behalf of any state seeking citizens or non-citizens abroad. This is done through the State Department. This would be problematic at a bare minimum. Much depends on cooperation of the State Department as well as the extradition treaty with the foreign state. One would have to live in another country that would have similar laws.
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Old 18th October 2021, 07:59 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
This seems like a pretty extraordinary request?
It's only extraordinary that the Supreme Court didn't do it own its own.
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Old 18th October 2021, 09:47 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's only extraordinary that the Supreme Court didn't do it own its own.
Yeah, that part.
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Old 19th October 2021, 12:15 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's only extraordinary that the Supreme Court didn't do it own its own.
Agreed.
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Old 19th October 2021, 01:36 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The United States would have to request extradition on behalf of any state seeking citizens or non-citizens abroad. This is done through the State Department. This would be problematic at a bare minimum. Much depends on cooperation of the State Department as well as the extradition treaty with the foreign state. One would have to live in another country that would have similar laws.
That's about how it works.

A couple of things are that in most treaties, the US doesn't have to provide a prima facie case when seeking extradition. It only needs to list the charges that the accused will be tried on and these charges also need to be crimes in the extraditing country. The accused can't be tried on other charges once extradition has been executed.

Although the courts in the extraditing country usually rubber stamp the process, they have been known to disallow some of the charges.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 10:09 AM   #61
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SCOTUS will start hearing oral arguments on starting November 1st, leaving the law in place until then.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/22/polit...urt/index.html
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Old 22nd October 2021, 10:16 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
SCOTUS will start hearing oral arguments on starting November 1st, leaving the law in place until then.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/22/polit...urt/index.html
How long do these cases usually take?

I see that they say they are focusing on the "vigilante enforcement" part of the law. That's the part I think conservatives should have problems with. So I'm expecting a "kick the can down the road" ruling where they reject on that basis but RvW for a later case. There are laws in other states that don't have that particular problem.

Not the least bit confident in that expectation though.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 11:32 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
How long do these cases usually take?

I see that they say they are focusing on the "vigilante enforcement" part of the law. That's the part I think conservatives should have problems with. So I'm expecting a "kick the can down the road" ruling where they reject on that basis but RvW for a later case. There are laws in other states that don't have that particular problem.

Not the least bit confident in that expectation though.
Nothing would surprise me with this Court.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 02:59 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
SCOTUS will start hearing oral arguments on starting November 1st, leaving the law in place until then.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/22/polit...urt/index.html
As per article, single dissent about leaving the law in place (Sotomayor).
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Old 23rd October 2021, 02:35 AM   #65
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This is a bit of a follow-up related to the tangent of forced abortions actually being the mirror of forced birth -

Even the highest-ranking Black woman in this police force was forced to get an abortion, report says
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Old 23rd October 2021, 05:01 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That's about how it works.

A couple of things are that in most treaties, the US doesn't have to provide a prima facie case when seeking extradition. It only needs to list the charges that the accused will be tried on and these charges also need to be crimes in the extraditing country. The accused can't be tried on other charges once extradition has been executed.

Although the courts in the extraditing country usually rubber stamp the process, they have been known to disallow some of the charges.
If a law that does not exist in the country from which extradition is sought, its not going to happen, the country will refuse. No other country in the world has this Texas vigilante law.

If the punishment attracts a potential death penalty, and the country from which extradition is sought does not, then its not going to happen, the country will refuse. Countries like Mexico, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, The UK and the countries of the European Union, will not extradite a person being sought for a capital crime, to the USA.
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Old 23rd October 2021, 10:37 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No other country in the world has this Texas vigilante law.
Agreed.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:24 AM   #68
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So ah... hows it going it? I was assured I was being dramatic and the law would be legally challenged soon. It hasn't.

You still can't get an abortion in Texas.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:28 AM   #69
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Quote:
Even so, the court isn't likely to issue its decision until the spring in such a complicated case involving a novel state law. The Texas law will remain in effect in the meantime. And on Dec. 1, the court will take up an even bigger challenge to abortion rights. Mississippi will urge the court to overrule Roe v. Wade and declare that there is no constitutional right to abortion
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/sup...n-law-n1282745
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Old 15th November 2021, 10:39 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So ah... hows it going it? I was assured I was being dramatic and the law would be legally challenged soon. It hasn't.

You still can't get an abortion in Texas.
A certain person has been awfully silent in this thread of late:

From early in Part the First of this thread
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Old 16th November 2021, 06:11 AM   #71
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Overturning Roe v. Wade isn't even all that popular amongst Republicans. The country as a whole is strongly in favor of keeping it. Amongst Republicans, they favor overturning by a slim 3 points, 45 to 42 according to this poll, not even a majority.
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Old 16th November 2021, 06:21 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Overturning Roe v. Wade isn't even all that popular amongst Republicans. The country as a whole is strongly in favor of keeping it. Amongst Republicans, they favor overturning by a slim 3 points, 45 to 42 according to this poll, not even a majority.
IMO there's a big difference between being quietly against overturning Roe v Wade when asked about it in an anonymous poll, and being willing to go against the religious zealots who make the loudest noises in the party.

A majority of Americans are reportedly in favour of increased gun control and yet in large parts of the country it would be almost impossible to get elected unless you've cultured an image of being an enthusiastic gun-toter.

IMO those 42 percent will happily sit by and watch their party reverse Roe v Wade safe in the knowledge that if they, or someone they care about, is in need of an abortion, then they have the resources to make it happen.
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Old 16th November 2021, 06:28 AM   #73
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Republicans don't want to ban abortion to the exact same degree that Democrats don't want to ban guns. They'll say they don't want to ban them all day long, but ask them directly what level of it they are comfortable with and you will not get an answer and "I don't want X banned, but I can't verbalize how much X I'm actually comfortable with being legal" and "I want X banned" is a hair not worth splitting.
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"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 16th November 2021 at 06:32 AM.
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