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Old 23rd November 2021, 11:38 AM   #3761
The Don
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Gaetan, healthcare in the UK isn't for profit.
Well, yes and no.

The suppliers to the NHS try to turn a profit and GPs are businesspeople.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 11:48 AM   #3762
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Well, yes and no.

The suppliers to the NHS try to turn a profit and GPs are businesspeople.
True, but there is not the same level of incentivisation in UK medicine that there is in the US.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 05:38 PM   #3763
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
True, but there is not the same level of incentivisation in UK medicine that there is in the US.
You pay by income tax their profit.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 06:48 PM   #3764
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Do you actually know how medical funding works in the UK Gaetan? Because the hospitals don't make a profit. That's kind of the point.
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:28 PM   #3765
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I went to see a doctor recently for dolor because i fell to check if nothing was broken, he told me to take tylenol and advil, they know nothing about medicinal plants. I talk in a general sense, some doctors might know something but they don't learn it at school, they are taught only to sell pharma products.
Wait a second, doctors recommending over the counter drugs when there are perfectly serviceable pharma drugs available? So when you went to this doctor, did you lie about what they told you to take, or are you lying about what they are taught?
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Old 24th November 2021, 07:08 PM   #3766
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Wait a second, doctors recommending over the counter drugs when there are perfectly serviceable pharma drugs available? So when you went to this doctor, did you lie about what they told you to take, or are you lying about what they are taught?
Lier yourself, that's what doctors sell when you have pain, tylenol and advil
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Old 24th November 2021, 08:01 PM   #3767
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Lier yourself, that's what doctors sell when you have pain, tylenol and advil
No doctor has ever sold me any medication. Not TynlenolTM, not AdvilTM. I have bought generic paracetamol and ibuprofen from the supermarket, when I've needed them. They cost pennies.

The only 'medical' practitioners that have directly sold me 'treatments' were the homeopaths and herbalists my mother dragged me to as a child (she went through a phase). That cost an arm and a leg, and did **** all.*



*To be fair, the homeopath did insist I stop using any 'allopathic' medication for my psoriasis, which led to me developing ulcerative cellulitis, which was an effect. The scars are a bonus, I suppose.
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Old 24th November 2021, 08:21 PM   #3768
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Lier yourself, that's what doctors sell when you have pain, tylenol and advil
Nope. Last time I went to the doctor was with a sore leg. He didn't give me "tylenol and advil". He sent me to ICU and saved my life. The bastage. Go on Gaetan. Tell me how inconsiderate he was and how he was in the pay of the ebil "big pharma" nobs.Anyhoo, I went on a six month course of blood thinners and had cameras inserted in every available orifice and so on and so forth. What fun.

How much do you think that cost me?

ETA: Oh I forgot. I also had to be picked up by ambulance and physically carried out of my home due to breaking my ankle. Got rushed through triage and straight into surgery. Now have a titanium angle, TYVM.

How much did I pay for that, do you think?
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Old 24th November 2021, 09:13 PM   #3769
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You fellows are lucky to still be alife.
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Old 24th November 2021, 09:35 PM   #3770
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You fellows are lucky to still be alife.
Lucky to live in places with halfway sensible health systems, certainly.
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Old 24th November 2021, 09:42 PM   #3771
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You fellows are lucky to still be alife.
I am indeed, since I got a nearly fatal case of meningitis this summer, and might well have died if I had not been in the hospital, cared for by competent professionals, and dosed with a considerable cocktail of antibiotics and other things when my organs threatened to shut down. The case itself was a bit mysterious but the guess is either bacterial meningitis from Lyme disease (for which I tested positive, but they can't tell whether it's new or old) or viral from an unknown source, perhaps West Nile. I do a lot of cycling in bug-infested areas, and the possibility of being bitten is considerable.

I'm normally quite healthy and strong for my age, and attribute at least some of this not only to exercise and genetics but diet and, yes, some supplements, some of which have been recommended by those dreaded doctors. More than one has recommended extra vitamin D, as well as a multivitamin, and my eye doctor recommended Lutein.

In the recent case, my problem was the opposite of what you would contend. My wife and I had a hard time convincing them I was really sick enough.

Your conception of the kind of health care we get is not accurate.
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Old 25th November 2021, 04:23 AM   #3772
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You fellows are lucky to still be alife.
In your magical wonder world we would all be dead.

Isn't that nice.
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Old 25th November 2021, 08:15 AM   #3773
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Doctors sell only pharma products, you can lie as much as you want but they don't prescribe those 28,000 medicinal natural plants. You fellows are born in a health care corrupted system.
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Old 25th November 2021, 08:25 AM   #3774
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Utter gibberish. St John's Wort is sold, by pharm companies, to treat depression. It's a plant. Asprin is derived from?

Doctors in the UK don't "sell" anything. Even private ones.
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Old 25th November 2021, 09:19 AM   #3775
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Utter gibberish. St John's Wort is sold, by pharm companies, to treat depression. It's a plant. Asprin is derived from?

Doctors in the UK don't "sell" anything. Even private ones.
Exceptions confirm the rule, they sell plants under transformation to make a patent on it and to sell them for profit under a different name. You don't seem to know how that corrupted business is working or you don't want to know the true.

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Old 25th November 2021, 12:09 PM   #3776
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Doctors sell only pharma products, you can lie as much as you want but they don't prescribe those 28,000 medicinal natural plants. You fellows are born in a health care corrupted system.
Doctors don't sell pharma products. Drug stores and pharmacies do.

When my doctor prescribes a medicine, I don't pay the doctor and receive my medication at the doctor's office. I usually wind up at WalGreens or CVS to pick up the prescription written by my doctor.
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Old 25th November 2021, 12:25 PM   #3777
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Doctors sell only pharma products, you can lie as much as you want but they don't prescribe those 28,000 medicinal natural plants. You fellows are born in a health care corrupted system.
Wrong as usual.
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Old 25th November 2021, 01:24 PM   #3778
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Exceptions confirm the rule, they sell plants under transformation to make a patent on it and to sell them for profit under a different name. You don't seem to know how that corrupted business is working or you don't want to know the true.
Wrong again, and despite the misreading of an old maxim, exceptions do not confirm a rule, they violate it.

In its original sense, an exception can be said to confirm, not the content of a rule, but its existence. If you name an exception, it must be an exception to something, and that something is a rule.

In the legal sense a rule can be "permissive," which means it tells you what you may do and forbids all the rest, or it can be "restrictive," which means it tells you what you may not do and allows all the rest ( I know this seems backwards to the usual sense of those words). Restrictive rules need no exceptions. Unstated = permitted. Permissive rules require exceptions, and correspondingly the naming of an exception confirms that a rule is permissive.

Alternatively (another sense of the original latin word "probat") when applied to natural law rather than legal rules, is that an exception TESTS a rule. If the exception bears out, the rule is in error. This sense obviously exists only in cases like natural laws, which we cannot vary. If you say "x-rays penetrate everything," and then find that they cannot penetrate lead, you have tested the rule and it failed.

Either way, it does not prove that the rule is correct. People have stupidly misinterpreted Cicero's original statement so many times that it has a life of its own, but repeating a mistake does not make it correct, as we have seen so abundantly in this thread. A person wishing to learn something could likely do so by checking reliable sources on the internet, or perhaps, if in a "dead tree zone," picking up a reference such as Fowler's English Usage. I will not, however, hold my breath here.

There is a lot wrong with the way medicine is practiced in the US, and in your foolishly consistent insistence on error you miss it all. People die and become ill, for sure, but not from getting it; rather from not getting it. The shameful and deadly corruption we see is not from how medicine is practiced, but from whom it's practiced upon. Those of us who can afford it get very good medical care.

I don't know where you come from, but in the US, doctors don't sell products. if they receive kickbacks from pharma producers, it's illegal and they face punishment for it.

Pharma companies do do aggressive marketing to doctors, giving away gewgaws and pens and office products, as well as free samples. Some doctors just love those free samples but for a reason entirely opposite to your contention. Free samples mean they can dispense products to their patients without cost to the patients. The pharma company bears all the cost.
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Old 25th November 2021, 03:43 PM   #3779
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Utter gibberish. St John's Wort is sold, by pharm companies, to treat depression. It's a plant. Asprin is derived from?

Doctors in the UK don't "sell" anything. Even private ones.
OK. I have had my GP hand me medication for free, but I have never had my GP try to sell me anything. I have had my GP prescribe various treatments and they go for the generics for preference. Just once I have been prescribed some new drug. A replacement for warfarin. It still cost me nothing. Gaetan's claim is just...odd.
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Old 25th November 2021, 03:48 PM   #3780
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Wrong again, and despite the misreading of an old maxim, exceptions do not confirm a rule, they violate it.
That is the oft misunderstanding of the word "prove". "The exception proves the rule is better understood as "the exception tests the rule".
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Old 25th November 2021, 04:44 PM   #3781
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
That is the oft misunderstanding of the word "prove". "The exception proves the rule is better understood as "the exception tests the rule".
While I always preferred this version and presumed it to be the right one, it seems I may have been mistaken, as noted in my previous post, and that what really was originally meant was that an exception proves that a rule exists, since a lack of a rule would require no exceptions. The important thing to remember here is that the maxim applies to rules, the things we make up to regulate our lives, not laws or presumptive facts. Where the latter are concerned, the only proper meaning reverts to "proves."

My trusty old Fowler prefers, as meaning # 1, the proof that a rule exists; as #2, the "scientific" testing of a rule; as #3, the use of the expression as benign nonsense, as in pointing out an unusual occurrence; as #4, serious nonsense, which is to say error such as that evinced above by Gaetan.
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Old 25th November 2021, 06:20 PM   #3782
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Lier yourself, that's what doctors sell when you have pain, tylenol and advil
Those are not sold by Big Pharma, nor do they require a prescription. You can get store brands of both of those, so not sure how the doctors get paid in that transaction but notably, it's not patented nor is prescribed. My doctor does not sell those items. Nor do they write scripts for them. So how do they get paid?
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Old 25th November 2021, 06:46 PM   #3783
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Exceptions confirm the rule, they sell plants under transformation to make a patent on it and to sell them for profit under a different name. You don't seem to know how that corrupted business is working or you don't want to know the true.
Or more likely you have no idea what you're talking about because you're poorly educated and delusional, and should seek medical help immediately.

Seriously Gaetan, get help. You're literally delusional. This isn't healthy.
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Old 25th November 2021, 07:03 PM   #3784
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The generic for Advil is Ibuprofen, which is available in huge quantities for nearly nothing. Probably not as cheap as aspirin, but more effective, it's sold over the counter both under brand names and as a generic. Sure, the companies that make the branded stuff like Advil and Motrin are counting on suckers to pay too much, but nothing stops us from passing them up, and no doctor gets paid for saying the word "Advil" or suggesting you take it. Not that doctors don't make plenty of money, maybe even more than they ought to, but the suggestion that they're selling over the counter pills is just preposterously dumb and transparently false. This kind of dishonest nonsense casts an opaque pall over everything you say. If there were anything worth saying, nobody would know, because it is hiding under a bushel of garbage.

There's all sorts of stuff wrong with all sorts of things, the medical system is a wreck, but you'll never understand enough to change it. The patient is dying of a brain tumor and you're arguing about whether you should put arnica or gentian violet on his toenails.
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Old 25th November 2021, 07:10 PM   #3785
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I have had no reason to sit in front of a doctor for ten or more years. Lucky me.

But when I did, they saved my life.

Not a single one attempted to sell me anything, they just saved my life.

Kinda borks your conspiracy nonsense, doesn't it?

I have a titanium ankle (for free). I got treated for TB (for free). I got treated for DVT (for free).

In your imaginary world, I would be dead. So would many.

So in your mad world, there would be no ICU that saved my life, no drugs that saved my life, no surgery that saved my life.

How would your plants have helped in any way?

You cannot say, because you have no clue.

How about my son, who was rushed into emergency surgery due to appendicitis. What plants would you recommend for that? Would they work? Or do anything at all. Of course not.

Mostly, they are known to be utterly useless. And what happened to the one's that were found to be useful? Those became medicine.

That you are unable to work that out is strange, to say the least of it.
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Old Yesterday, 08:45 AM   #3786
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post

How about my son, who was rushed into emergency surgery due to appendicitis. What plants would you recommend for that? Would they work? Or do anything at all. Of course not.
There are a lots of natural remedies for appendicitis like garlic, fenugrec or ginger but if it blows in your body you need surgery. The best is to keep it, every organs in your body is helpfull.

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Old Yesterday, 09:53 AM   #3787
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I was born with 3 congenital heart defects. What would a naturopath have done for me to stop me from dying in my first week of life Gaetan?
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Old Yesterday, 03:36 PM   #3788
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
There are a lots of natural remedies for appendicitis like garlic, fenugrec or ginger but if it blows in your body you need surgery. The best is to keep it, every organs in your body is helpfull.
How would any of those have helped my son? He already had buckets of garlic and ginger since I use those when cooking. Every day. Made no difference when his appendix let fly and we went straight to the ER.
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Old Yesterday, 11:55 PM   #3789
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
How would any of those have helped my son? He already had buckets of garlic and ginger since I use those when cooking. Every day. Made no difference when his appendix let fly and we went straight to the ER.
Garlic is great stuff, and almost certainly good for you, and it's even quite likely that there is some truth in the hyperbolic statements of health crackpots, though if I believed them I'd expect to live forever given how much of that delicious vegetable I consume. However, a small sampling (sorry, the clickbait takes too long to go through for more than a few) of those sites fails to come up with any reference to appendicitis. I think you have to outcrack the crackpots to expect that.

Ginger is also a great substance, good for you in all sorts of ways. Good cooks love to put ginger in things, and many people (even including the dreaded doctor critters) recommend it for intestinal upset, and as a mild but effective preventer of seasickness. Great stuff ginger, but the sources I looked at don't suggest it cures appendicitis.

Yes indeed, those things are good food, and good for you, and a diet that contains them, while it won't make you healthy by itself, will likely make you healthier than you would be if you didn't eat them. That does not mean they constitute a reasonable substitute for good medicine.
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Old Today, 12:52 AM   #3790
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Garlic is great stuff, and almost certainly good for you, and it's even quite likely that there is some truth in the hyperbolic statements of health crackpots, though if I believed them I'd expect to live forever given how much of that delicious vegetable I consume. However, a small sampling (sorry, the clickbait takes too long to go through for more than a few) of those sites fails to come up with any reference to appendicitis. I think you have to outcrack the crackpots to expect that.

Ginger is also a great substance, good for you in all sorts of ways. Good cooks love to put ginger in things, and many people (even including the dreaded doctor critters) recommend it for intestinal upset, and as a mild but effective preventer of seasickness. Great stuff ginger, but the sources I looked at don't suggest it cures appendicitis.

Yes indeed, those things are good food, and good for you, and a diet that contains them, while it won't make you healthy by itself, will likely make you healthier than you would be if you didn't eat them. That does not mean they constitute a reasonable substitute for good medicine.
TBH I enjoy cooking from scratch. It annoys seven shades out of me to have my kids complain about the endless train of oven chips. But that is all the hex wife can manage. When they are chez moi, I cook from scratch ingredients and get them involved in the process.. It's fun. Hex wife complains abut this. I just tell her she wasn't complaining back when we were married.


Cooking. I just like the process. And I am good at it. Condemn me. Somebody will.
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Old Today, 09:12 AM   #3791
Gaetan
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I was born with 3 congenital heart defects. What would a naturopath have done for me to stop me from dying in my first week of life Gaetan?
I don't say that doctors are useless, they studied body for years, what i say is that people have the right to have the best product for their cure, if it is a plant doctors should use it. People should not be the hostage of the pharma industry. Doctors are weak in treating chronic illness and cause more problem with pharma product while plants are usefull.
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Old Today, 10:02 AM   #3792
MarkCorrigan
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Doctors do use plant based medicine. All the time. Why are plants better than the same chemicals manufactured in a lab though?

Let's say there is a plant that contains chemical A which is good for treating headaches for instance. Peoplethen learn to synthesise the chemical A in a lab rather than using it in the plant which has a bunch more chemicals in it. Why is that somehow worse?
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Old Today, 10:32 AM   #3793
Jack by the hedge
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
... what i say is that people have the right to have the best product for their cure, if it is a plant doctors should use it.
I agree. Evidence based medicine is all about using the best treatment. Whether it's a plant or not.
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Old Today, 10:34 AM   #3794
bruto
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I don't say that doctors are useless, they studied body for years, what i say is that people have the right to have the best product for their cure, if it is a plant doctors should use it. People should not be the hostage of the pharma industry. Doctors are weak in treating chronic illness and cause more problem with pharma product while plants are usefull.
You may not have used the exact word "useless" in your characterization of doctors, but you have, for a long time now, made it clear that you do indeed believe they are at least useless if not worse. You have accused them of corruption, the creation of chronic diseases, poisoning, shortening our lives and just plain killing us. You can change your tune now, but you know we can read back in the thread, and we can see all the statements, lies, hyperbole and hokum therein.
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