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Old Today, 11:34 AM   #2641
Axxman300
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If Jutta Rabe's team spotted holes in the bow bulkhead sides...
And yet none of these holes appear in the original dive videos or any of the subsequent dive videos.


Quote:
and Braidwood spotted what in his expert opinion looked like an unexploded explosive device attached to the bow,
Which it was no such thing. AND had it been sabotage, AND the Swedes were covering it up the device would have been removed by their divers.

Quote:
together with Ida Westermann more recently identifying possible deformations i the bow - having personally arranged metallurgy laboratory tests - indicating extreme high temperatures/points of high impact, then one has to wonder why the JAIC never investigated this area of possibility,
This was due to the total sum of the evidence, and the fact that metal heats up with the kind of friction caused by a few tons of steel banging away against a few more tons of steel. The metallurgy was explained to you a few times already.


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especially when so many of the passenger and crew survivors mentioned hearing a series of bangs and/or collision sensations, together with the devastatingly rapid sinking.
Which was the bow visor, and some very large waves doing their thing. The sea floor in that area has to produce localized rogue waves under the right conditions. The bathymetry screams "slow down in rough seas". And the current investigation's decryption of the water column, and the the unexpected fast current at the bottom reinforces this concept.

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Instead, from Day One, we are told a wave was responsible.
The waves (plural) and the captain sailing at flank speed into them.
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Old Today, 11:47 AM   #2642
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is what the JAIC did here. It was decided immediately this was top level highly classified material and ...
Have you ever stopped to think that the reason the Swedes and Fins, and Estonians decided to keep elements of the investigation secret was because they suspected sabotage, or at least felt the need to rule it out?

If you bothered to look a it in that lens then everything that followed sort makes sense with the Haliburton divers and so on. Sure, they knew from survivor reports that the visor had been knocked off, but MAYBE they needed to quietly make sure nothing more sinister had happened.

By making public statements about possible sabotage - without evidence - causes unbearable additional pain to the families, and feeds conspiracy loons (we saw this with TWA-800).

Again, in the end, the wreck is right there where it settled, and the visor is gone, and the bow ramp has slipped open again which is evidence of the damage it took when the visor came off. The holes of the starboard side were caused by the impact with the rocks on the sea floor, and subsequent shifting of the hull.

You are blowing smoke to cover for the fact you have no facts.
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Old Today, 12:02 PM   #2643
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If Jutta Rabe's team spotted holes in the bow bulkhead sides and Braidwood spotted what in his expert opinion looked like an unexploded explosive device attached to the bow, together with Ida Westermann more recently identifying possible deformations i the bow - having personally arranged metallurgy laboratory tests - indicating extreme high temperatures/points of high impact, then one has to wonder why the JAIC never investigated this area of possibility, especially when so many of the passenger and crew survivors mentioned hearing a series of bangs and/or collision sensations, together with the devastatingly rapid sinking.

Instead, from Day One, we are told a wave was responsible.
Are we back to this again?

Is the idea that you keep recycling the same stuff we explained and debunked before until people get sick of responding so you can claim victory?

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; Today at 12:03 PM.
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Old Today, 12:04 PM   #2644
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
When you go potty-mouthed we know it means you have lost the argument.
No it means we are sick of you posting the same, long debunked **** over and over again as though it had never been responded to.
It's enough to make a ******* saint swear.
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Old Today, 12:07 PM   #2645
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
You edited 'slewth' but replaced it with more nonsense. A 'sleuth' is a detective.
Once again this thread delivers comedy gold.
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Old Today, 12:07 PM   #2646
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A marine expert believing it might be sabotage?


HS
An executive of the company running a defective ship with an incompetent crew you mean?
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Old Today, 12:09 PM   #2647
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
She clearly meant "slew." It's one thing to make a typo, but another thing to "correct" it to something even less literate. I predict ten pages of her backpedaling and trying to say she was somehow right all along.
A collective noun for detectives maybe?
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Old Today, 12:18 PM   #2648
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
A collective noun for detectives maybe?
They're measured collectively by weight. The customary unit is a Pinkerton.
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Old Today, 12:18 PM   #2649
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
This was due to the total sum of the evidence, and the fact that metal heats up with the kind of friction caused by a few tons of steel banging away against a few more tons of steel. The metallurgy was explained to you a few times already.
Plus the fact that the ship was of welded construction.
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Old Today, 12:20 PM   #2650
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Are we back to this again?

Is the idea that you keep recycling the same stuff we explained and debunked before until people get sick of responding so you can claim victory?
We never really left. But I asked her a question that she either knows the answer to or not. She clearly doesn't, and is slowly learning not to bluff. So it's her roundabout way of saying "I don't know."
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Old Today, 12:20 PM   #2651
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
They're measured collectively by weight. The customary unit is a Pinkerton.
That's good.
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Old Today, 12:23 PM   #2652
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As the JAIC never investigated the possibility of sabotage, then it is a moot point.
Originally Posted by Here_to_learn View Post
Do you have any documents or reports from JAIC members where they are specifically forbidden to investigate that aspect? Any whistlelblowers?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A whole sleuth of them. The Estonian side of the JAIC claimed they had information withheld from them. Look up Werner Hummel, investigator for the ship builders Meyer-Werft. Look up ex-Royal Navy military and explosives expert Robin Braidwood, Professor Ulfversson, Professor Ida Westermann, etcetera.
1. You do your homework. If you want to use Hummel et al. to backup your claim, then you link to their statements.
2. But I did check, and it turns out that I can't find any of those names in the JAIC report. But that made it clear - you do not have a single JAIC member claiming that they were forbidden to investigate the possibility of sabotage. So your earlier statement is just your claim, with no facts to back it up.
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Old Today, 01:34 PM   #2653
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Originally Posted by Here_to_learn View Post
1. You do your homework. If you want to use Hummel et al. to backup your claim, then you link to their statements.
2. But I did check, and it turns out that I can't find any of those names in the JAIC report. But that made it clear - you do not have a single JAIC member claiming that they were forbidden to investigate the possibility of sabotage. So your earlier statement is just your claim, with no facts to back it up.

I hope I don't detect a note of surprise on your part there......

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Old Today, 01:59 PM   #2654
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I hope I don't detect a note of surprise on your part there......



I wish I could claim a note of disappointment but I'm afraid I'm past even that. Sorrow maybe, but it could be sorrow on my own behalf, in relation to wasted time.
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Old Today, 02:27 PM   #2655
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This thread is worthwhile because I've learned a lot of interesting things about ships, sailing, maritime procedures, radios, radar, NATO, Sweden, SAR, signal buoys, and even a dash or maritime law.

The Estonia sinking is a tragedy. I think the second investigation is worthwhile for a number of reasons. My personal interest stems from the fact that it's always productive when scientific equipment is put to work in the undersea environment because of all the peripheral data recovered which could help marine science in some way down the road (as almost all deep sea research data does). In this case, the data shows a clear correlation the hull breaches, and the rock outcrops. next April they will dive on the wreck, and photograph even more. It's not over, but I doubt the story will change.
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