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Old 18th January 2022, 11:36 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
It's not a good word choice and I don't know where it started and it doesn't matter, but we all know the idea and there are other ways to describe it anyway. That's why, when I did my image-searches earlier, I used several different phrases.

The fact that the results solidly showed what I already knew and I'm sure everybody else living in this culture must have already known, that single-image representations of the comeback story concept clearly much more often focus on the initial loss/failure and not on the later win/success, makes it just fascinatingly, almost surreally bizarre that anybody would claim the opposite. It's like watching people claim that our culture normally uses rain to represent happiness and sunshine to represent sadness.
You keep on saying this as if it’s a universal truth. I think that is bizarre. I’m trying to come up with a reason for highlighting a boxers humiliation without a depiction of his triumph.

And I too believe Beck is lying.

I know it’s not a redemption story, but I think Ali’s photo standing over Sonny Liston stands alone and needs no “context” of his poor upbringing or later defeats.
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Old 18th January 2022, 12:54 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Except he's provided that context for his fans. He has talked about it before, what Joe Louis did before and after that moment, and what it means to him. The people who had no context for it are the people who only saw Chris Hayes' tweet, and they aren't his fans.
He's also told his fans that WA is going to institute forcible detainment in internment camps for the unvaccinated. He's also told them that the government 'co-owns the vaccine they now want to mandate' and has an "ulterior motive". Beck is a liar and what he says cannot be trusted except by the foolish and gullible.
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Old 18th January 2022, 01:21 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
It's not a good word choice and I don't know where it started and it doesn't matter, but we all know the idea and there are other ways to describe it anyway. That's why, when I did my image-searches earlier, I used several different phrases.
What phrases did you use?

When I image googled "redemption" not a single image of that photo appeared...or any sport image at all. It was all movies or books with that name in the title or a brand of rye.

Then I googled "redemption sports". Every image that resulted, and there were many, showed a win or victory event, not a failure OR a dual picture of the loss and the victory. But what didn't come up at all was a photo of Joe Louis on the mat after being defeated by Schmeling or any image of a defeat at all.

Then I image googled "redemption Joe Louis". Not a single image of the defeat by Schmeling appeared but an image of Louis defeating Schmeling did.

Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
The fact that the results solidly showed what I already knew and I'm sure everybody else living in this culture must have already known, that single-image representations of the comeback story concept clearly much more often focus on the initial loss/failure and not on the later win/success, makes it just fascinatingly, almost surreally bizarre that anybody would claim the opposite. It's like watching people claim that our culture normally uses rain to represent happiness and sunshine to represent sadness.
My results solidly refuted your results. The claim that "single-image representations of the comeback story concept clearly much more often focus on the initial loss/failure and not on the later win/success" is not supported at all by the evidence. In fact, the evidence shows just the opposite of your claim.
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Old 18th January 2022, 02:20 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What phrases did you use?

When I image googled "redemption" not a single image of that photo appeared...or any sport image at all. It was all movies or books with that name in the title or a brand of rye.

Then I googled "redemption sports". Every image that resulted, and there were many, showed a win or victory event, not a failure OR a dual picture of the loss and the victory. But what didn't come up at all was a photo of Joe Louis on the mat after being defeated by Schmeling or any image of a defeat at all.

Then I image googled "redemption Joe Louis". Not a single image of the defeat by Schmeling appeared but an image of Louis defeating Schmeling did.



My results solidly refuted your results. The claim that "single-image representations of the comeback story concept clearly much more often focus on the initial loss/failure and not on the later win/success" is not supported at all by the evidence. In fact, the evidence shows just the opposite of your claim.

I got pretty much the same results as you.

ē An image search of "sports redemption" brings up mostly baseball, basketball, football (gridiron and soccer). The first boxing one doesn't appear until the 10th line of photos.

ē An image search of "boxing redemption" brings up lots of boxing photos, several times the second Ali v Liston fight appears, but Joe Louis does not appear at all on the first page of about 250 images

ē So I narrow it right down to "iconic boxing redemption photos".

Ali - dozens (with Ali v Liston 2 the most frequent)
Sugar Ray Leonard - several
Mike Tyson - several
Evander Holyfield - several

Lots of others I hadn't heard of.

Joe Louis - Not a single one.

ē Pretty much the same for "iconic boxing photos"

Lots of photos featuring mostly Ali and others, but no Joe Louis.
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Old 18th January 2022, 02:29 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I got pretty much the same results as you.

ē An image search of "sports redemption" brings up mostly baseball, basketball, football (gridiron and soccer). The first boxing one doesn't appear until the 10th line of photos.

ē An image search of "boxing redemption" brings up lots of boxing photos, several times the second Ali v Liston fight appears, but Joe Louis does not appear at all on the first page of about 250 images

ē So I narrow it right down to "iconic boxing redemption photos".

Ali - dozens (with Ali v Liston 2 the most frequent)
Sugar Ray Leonard - several
Mike Tyson - several
Evander Holyfield - several

Lots of others I hadn't heard of.

Joe Louis - Not a single one.

ē Pretty much the same for "iconic boxing photos"

Lots of photos featuring mostly Ali and others, but no Joe Louis.
Maybe our computers don't understand the meaning of "redemption".
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Old 18th January 2022, 02:43 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
He's also told his fans that WA is going to institute forcible detainment in internment camps for the unvaccinated. He's also told them that the government 'co-owns the vaccine they now want to mandate' and has an "ulterior motive". Beck is a liar and what he says cannot be trusted except by the foolish and gullible.
That doesn't demonstrate what you think it demonstrates. We aren't debating the factual accuracy of his statements, that isn't the issue. What's at issue is the message he's trying to convey. Are you trying to argue that Beck said they were going to institute camps but that he didn't want his fans to believe that? That he didn't actually want people to believe the government had ulterior motives regarding the vaccine? It seems that the more damning criticism in your examples is that he wanted people to believe what he said. So follow that through. He wanted people to believe what he said about his Joe Louis painting too.

Seriously, it doesn't make any sense that this is the one case where he suddenly wanted people to NOT believe him. And that's what you're arguing.
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Old 18th January 2022, 03:06 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That doesn't demonstrate what you think it demonstrates. We aren't debating the factual accuracy of his statements, that isn't the issue. What's at issue is the message he's trying to convey. Are you trying to argue that Beck said they were going to institute camps but that he didn't want his fans to believe that? That he didn't actually want people to believe the government had ulterior motives regarding the vaccine? It seems that the more damning criticism in your examples is that he wanted people to believe what he said. So follow that through. He wanted people to believe what he said about his Joe Louis painting too.

Seriously, it doesn't make any sense that this is the one case where he suddenly wanted people to NOT believe him. And that's what you're arguing.
Yes, it does damn well demonstrate what I think it does: Beck is a liar and will say whatever he thinks is advantageous to him regardless of the truth.

Beck's 'redemption' spin is his 'plausible deniability' card and you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

You can spin and twist yourself into a pretzel all you want; it doesn't change the fact that whatever Beck says cannot be trusted.
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Old 18th January 2022, 03:27 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yes, it does damn well demonstrate what I think it does: Beck is a liar and will say whatever he thinks is advantageous to him regardless of the truth.

Beck's 'redemption' spin is his 'plausible deniability' card and you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

You can spin and twist yourself into a pretzel all you want; it doesn't change the fact that whatever Beck says cannot be trusted.
You don't have to trust Glenn Beck. Have you demonstrated that it is a racist dog whistle rather than racial tokenism or just reverence for a personal hero of his?
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Old 18th January 2022, 03:34 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
I just did a few Google image searches with phrases like "get knocked down get back up", "lose the battle win the war", "bent not broken", "beaten not defeated", and "defeated not destroyed".

A lot of the results are just text in the form of an image, or an emotionally neutral image like a stock image of a coach who apparently said such a thing in the context of coaching. But the ones that actually show people in one half or the other of a comeback story overwhelmingly show the first part, the negative part. I think one of the above got one result showing a person who was at the positive finale of such a story instead, and one other got one result showing two people, with one picking the other up off the ground. Strangely, "fall down seven times stand up eight" did shift more toward positive-looking images, but only all the way up to about even. Overall, using the phrases I came up with, which I'm pretty sure covered the subject, this "down then up" concept is significantly more often depicted with an illustration of the "down" phase than with an illustration of the "up" phase.

...Bonus: the most common setting for such images is sports, and the most common sport for such images is boxing. That's actually something I didn't know before doing it.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What phrases did you use?

When I image googled "redemption" not a single image of that photo appeared...or any sport image at all. It was all movies or books with that name in the title or a brand of rye.

Then I googled "redemption sports". Every image that resulted, and there were many, showed a win or victory event, not a failure OR a dual picture of the loss and the victory. But what didn't come up at all was a photo of Joe Louis on the mat after being defeated by Schmeling or any image of a defeat at all.

Then I image googled "redemption Joe Louis". Not a single image of the defeat by Schmeling appeared but an image of Louis defeating Schmeling did.
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
ē An image search of "sports redemption" brings up mostly baseball, basketball, football (gridiron and soccer). The first boxing one doesn't appear until the 10th line of photos.

ē An image search of "boxing redemption" brings up lots of boxing photos, several times the second Ali v Liston fight appears, but Joe Louis does not appear at all on the first page of about 250 images

ē So I narrow it right down to "iconic boxing redemption photos"...
Searches designed to avoid the subject successfully manage to avoid the subject. Wow, what a shock!
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Old 18th January 2022, 03:35 PM   #250
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Not that it's relevant anyway, but Beck probably believes that Washingron thing...
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Old 18th January 2022, 03:50 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Searches designed to avoid the subject successfully manage to avoid the subject. Wow, what a shock!


Right. "Redemption, redemption sport, redemption Joe Louis, sports redemption, boxing redemption, and iconic boxing redemption photos" are all designed to avoid finding an image of Schmeling knocking Louis out and images of someone's moment of defeat as a symbol of redemption!

Go, on...pull the other one!
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Old 18th January 2022, 03:58 PM   #252
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Is there any particular reason that Beck's take on the image and it's meaning to him personally has to have popular online support from others? Subjectivity in art is still a thing, yes?
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Old 18th January 2022, 04:00 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yes, it does damn well demonstrate what I think it does: Beck is a liar and will say whatever he thinks is advantageous to him regardless of the truth.

Beck's 'redemption' spin is his 'plausible deniability' card and you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

You can spin and twist yourself into a pretzel all you want; it doesn't change the fact that whatever Beck says cannot be trusted.

THIS, in spades, with the Ace on top of the pile!
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Old 18th January 2022, 04:01 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Searches designed to avoid the subject successfully manage to avoid the subject. Wow, what a shock!
What Stacy said!
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Old 18th January 2022, 04:07 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yes, it does damn well demonstrate what I think it does: Beck is a liar and will say whatever he thinks is advantageous to him regardless of the truth.
Ok, letís take that as a given for the sake of argument.

Thatís still not what this thread is about. The thread is about what message Beck was trying to send. Liars still want their audience to believe their lies. Thatís sort of the point. So even if Beck thinks itís great that a white guy beat up a black guy, the fact remains that the message he told his audience is one of redemption, not defeat.

Quote:
Beck's 'redemption' spin is his 'plausible deniability' card and you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
How does Beck sort out who does and doesnít believe the lie? How does he get me to believe it, but not his actual fans? Thatís what doesnít make sense. Youíre attributing far more sophistication to this than I think Beck is capable of.

Quote:
You can spin and twist yourself into a pretzel all you want; it doesn't change the fact that whatever Beck says cannot be trusted.
Again, itís not a matter of trust. Itís a matter of concluding that Beck WANTS people to believe what he says. Thatís all we need to conclude, and nothing more. The truth of his statement is actually irrelevant to that conclusion. And you havenít presented any evidence that Beck ever wants people to disbelieve him.
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Old 18th January 2022, 04:07 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
You don't have to trust Glenn Beck. Have you demonstrated that it is a racist dog whistle rather than racial tokenism or just reverence for a personal hero of his?
I've never said it was any of the above. What I've said is that the photo does not show 'redemption' as Beck claims. If you can quote me saying otherwise, please do so.

Quote:
"I don't know what Beck's real motivation for having that picture is. He may be telling the truth that it's about redemption, but I doubt it. Knowing Beck's history, I suspect he's not exactly being honest and just giving it a more PC spin. If one wanted a picture showing redemption, this one of Joe KO'ing Max would be more appropriate."
(pg 1, #13}

Quote:
"I doubt that. I'd think, if you identify with Louis, you'd focus on his triumph, not his defeat. Your take seems bassackwards to me."
(pg 1, #24)
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Old 18th January 2022, 04:26 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Thatís still not what this thread is about. The thread is about what message Beck was trying to send. Liars still want their audience to believe their lies. Thatís sort of the point. So even if Beck thinks itís great that a white guy beat up a black guy, the fact remains that the message he told his audience is one of redemption, not defeat.
You're looking at something green and swearing that is in fact purple

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How does Beck sort out who does and doesnít believe the lie?
Why does he need to?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How does he get me to believe it, but not his actual fans?
Not wishing to use an ad-hom here, but you're gullible; his fans know him all too well.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Again, itís not a matter of trust.
No, it actually IS a matter of trust.. its actually the whole issue!

If Dr Martin Luther King Jr had that picture hanging on his wall, and told you it inspired him as an example of redemption, would you believe him?

If David Duke had that picture hanging on his wall, and told you it inspired him as an example of redemption, would you believe him?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Itís a matter of concluding that Beck WANTS people to believe what he says. Thatís all we need to conclude, and nothing more. The truth of his statement is actually irrelevant to that conclusion. And you havenít presented any evidence that Beck ever wants people to disbelieve him.
That is some class A, next-level pretzel-twisting right there.

For mine, it is much simpler - do I believe him or not? Given that Beck lies just about every time he opens his mouth, I don't!
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Old 18th January 2022, 05:05 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yes, it does damn well demonstrate what I think it does: Beck is a liar and will say whatever he thinks is advantageous to him regardless of the truth.
Ok, letís take that as a given for the sake of argument.

Thatís still not what this thread is about. The thread is about what message Beck was trying to send. Liars still want their audience to believe their lies. Thatís sort of the point. So even if Beck thinks itís great that a white guy beat up a black guy, the fact remains that the message he told his audience is one of redemption, not defeat.
It certainly is what this thread is about: any "message Beck is trying to send" is to be met with suspicion due to his history of lying. I think many in his audience will interpret what he says as what they want him to be saying. Some will believe his claim at face value and some will think he's just being crafty/clever. Rather like this group photo showing three white fire recruits flashing the OK white power sign. They could claim they're just saying OK or playing the Circle Game: plausible deniability.


Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Quote:
Quote:
Beck's 'redemption' spin is his 'plausible deniability' card and you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
How does Beck sort out who does and doesnít believe the lie? How does he get me to believe it, but not his actual fans? Thatís what doesnít make sense. Youíre attributing far more sophistication to this than I think Beck is capable of.
He doesn't have to sort out who does or doesn't believe him. Like I said, people will believe what they want to believe, and Beck knows that as well. That isn't being "sophisticated'; it's a common human trait.


Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Quote:
You can spin and twist yourself into a pretzel all you want; it doesn't change the fact that whatever Beck says cannot be trusted.
Again, itís not a matter of trust. Itís a matter of concluding that Beck WANTS people to believe what he says. Thatís all we need to conclude, and nothing more. The truth of his statement is actually irrelevant to that conclusion. And you havenít presented any evidence that Beck ever wants people to disbelieve him.
It certainly is a matter of trust. Without trust, you cannot believe what someone says. I don't believe almost anything that comes out of Trump's mouth because he's a proven liar. On the other hand, his acolytes believe him because they trust him. I've even heard some claim that he doesn't lie.

I've never claimed to know exactly what Beck wants his audience to believe. I've clearly stated that I don't know his motivation.

I don't have to present any evidence that Beck wants his people to disbelieve him but I have presented evidence that he is a liar.

By the way, I'm still waiting for those links to the "'private' groups and spaces which the public can still access, and where explicitly racist rhetoric is easy to find," that you claimed there were plenty of.
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Old 18th January 2022, 05:36 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Is there any particular reason that Beck's take on the image and it's meaning to him personally has to have popular online support from others?
No, but they brought it up, so here we are, and, in a way, it is an intriguing subject. I'm trying to imagine a way for them to live in this culture but still seriously, honestly be unaware of something that seems so basic & obvious & ubiquitous as the comeback-themed motivational poster showing the bad thing that somebody would need to come back from. Can there be a difference that stark in the non-political memes of subcultures that happen to also be divided politically? Is this "when you go down, get back up" kind of motto/slogan/imagery circulated more heavily among people who happen to be conservative but not so much among people who happen to be farther politically left?

I suppose that fits with Christianity telling its followers they're persecuted, and with political conservatives seeing themselves as politically ignored or under political attack from the outside or such; if you identify with story-characters (both real and fictional) in their just-been-knocked-down stage, you might be more responsive to a "get back up" message, and thus more likely to pass it on to others like yourself. And that might even make it obvious why a single image to represent the process practically has to show that just-been-knocked-down stage (because the purpose of the meme is a psychological boost, and that's the time when a psychological boost is needed). On the other side of the coin, if you don't see yourself that way, then you might be less likely to have much of a response to such a message, thus less likely to pass it on to others like yourself... and maybe even less likely to understand why the part that best represents the whole story is the part it is.
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Old 18th January 2022, 06:11 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Ok, letís take that as a given for the sake of argument.

Thatís still not what this thread is about. The thread is about what message Beck was trying to send. Liars still want their audience to believe their lies. Thatís sort of the point. So even if Beck thinks itís great that a white guy beat up a black guy, the fact remains that the message he told his audience is one of redemption, not defeat.



How does Beck sort out who does and doesnít believe the lie? How does he get me to believe it, but not his actual fans? Thatís what doesnít make sense. Youíre attributing far more sophistication to this than I think Beck is capable of.



Again, itís not a matter of trust. Itís a matter of concluding that Beck WANTS people to believe what he says. Thatís all we need to conclude, and nothing more. The truth of his statement is actually irrelevant to that conclusion. And you havenít presented any evidence that Beck ever wants people to disbelieve him.
One possibility is that he wanted to send a racist message with its ambiguity an escape clause, that his loyal viewers would understand. In this scenario he would want his target audience to disbelieve what he says the picture is about. I doubt it's that simple or blunt.

One related possibility is that he wanted to send a racist message to those who want it, a nod nod wink wink to his people, but an alternative message to those who don't, using the ambiguity to appeal to those in his audience who are not at least overtly racist.

One possibility is that he doesn't really have any racial message, just likes the picture as a picture, and his message is about his taste in pictures, and that he's indifferent to other implications. I would not totally exclude the possibility that he's just so proud of having that picture that he's stubbornly tone deaf.

Another possibility, which I suspect is closer, is that he thinks of himself as not really racist because, clueless and stupid and biased deep down, he thinks black people would be all right if they were just more like him - that Black culture is the problem - and this picture represents the redemption that he thinks they need in order to become worthy. The message here is largely social: an adult version of "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer." He's just another ****** until he wins.

Ultimately I doubt we'll ever know for certain what's inside Beck's head, except that whatever it is we're probably better off not exposed to it.
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Old 18th January 2022, 06:37 PM   #261
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Yeah, Brutoís take is pretty much how I feel about it.
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Old 18th January 2022, 09:54 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
One possibility is that he wanted to send a racist message with its ambiguity an escape clause, that his loyal viewers would understand.
Except thereís no evidence that they do. Sending coded messages isnít very effective if people havenít already agreed on the code, nor does Beck seem like the subtle type. While this is not logically precluded, it isÖ unlikely.
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Old 18th January 2022, 09:58 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
He doesn't have to sort out who does or doesn't believe him. Like I said, people will believe what they want to believe,
Well, you certainly are proof of that.

Quote:
I've never claimed to know exactly what Beck wants his audience to believe.
You pretty much have.

Quote:
I don't have to present any evidence that Beck wants his people to disbelieve him
In the sense that nobody can force you to support your claims, sure. But itís a logical requirement of your position that Beck wants people to disbelieve him.
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Old 18th January 2022, 11:07 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
He doesn't have to sort out who does or doesn't believe him. Like I said, people will believe what they want to believe,
Well, you certainly are proof of that.
Is that all you've got as a counter argument? A silly, grade school level playground ad hominem? What next? Are you going to run to mama?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Quote:
Quote:
I've never claimed to know exactly what Beck wants his audience to believe.
You pretty much have.
Then I suggest you quote me. Go. Do it. 'All hat and no cattle' as they say in Texas.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Quote:
I don't have to present any evidence that Beck wants his people to disbelieve him
In the sense that nobody can force you to support your claims, sure. But itís a logical requirement of your position that Beck wants people to disbelieve him.
What claims? The ones you keep putting in my mouth but don't present quotes from me actually saying them? This whole idea of Beck wanting his followers to disbelieve him came directly from you, not me:

Quote:
Are you trying to argue that Beck said they were going to institute camps but that he didn't want his fans to believe that? That he didn't actually want people to believe the government had ulterior motives regarding the vaccine?
(pg 7, #246)

You can twist yourself into a great, big, Bavarian Oktoberfest pretzel as much as you like and spin what I say, but it doesn't make it what I said.

And I'm still waiting for those links you declared there were "plenty of".
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Old Yesterday, 12:34 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
And I'm still waiting for those links you declared there were "plenty of".
He will never provide them, and you and I both know exactly why that is, don't we!
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Old Yesterday, 03:43 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Is there any particular reason that Beck's take on the image and it's meaning to him personally has to have popular online support from others? Subjectivity in art is still a thing, yes?
This is the only really useful argument against the general consensus that painting an image of arguably the worst defeat a particular person ever suffered as a love-letter to their memory is utterly nonsensical (to be modest); however long the odds are, art as you say is subjective and the possibility someone would think that's a good idea can't ever be totally eliminated.

The problem is that Beck still faces a credibility problem when it comes to his public statements; to wit, the fact that he lies like a rug. It's the elephant in the room. The fly in the soup. The gap in the teeth. The sour in the cream. The butter in the scotch. It's foolish to take him at his word on anything; an insurmountable problem that can't be ignored, and it is of his own devising.
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Old Yesterday, 06:40 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This is the only really useful argument against the general consensus that painting an image of arguably the worst defeat a particular person ever suffered as a love-letter to their memory
Itís not a love letter to his memory. Itís supposed to be inspiration for him and his fans. The idea is they can come back from defeat like Joe Louis did. Heís very explicit about that. You havenít actually paid attention to what he said.
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Old Yesterday, 07:37 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Itís not a love letter to his memory. Itís supposed to be inspiration for him and his fans. The idea is they can come back from defeat like Joe Louis did. Heís very explicit about that. You havenít actually paid attention to what he said.
He'd better hope that some folks who see themselves in Joe Louis don't take that message too seriously, as I suspect for many he is the Schmeling in their ring, and their "redemption" will be the removal of people like him from positions of influence. Beware of what you wish for.
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Old Yesterday, 08:56 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This is the only really useful argument against the general consensus that painting an image of arguably the worst defeat a particular person ever suffered as a love-letter to their memory is utterly nonsensical (to be modest); however long the odds are, art as you say is subjective and the possibility someone would think that's a good idea can't ever be totally eliminated.

The problem is that Beck still faces a credibility problem when it comes to his public statements; to wit, the fact that he lies like a rug. It's the elephant in the room. The fly in the soup. The gap in the teeth. The sour in the cream. The butter in the scotch. It's foolish to take him at his word on anything; an insurmountable problem that can't be ignored, and it is of his own devising.
Yeah, I get that, and I hear your argument that most/the vast majority of people wouldn't interpret the image that way. I wouldn't, but I could see how someone else might.

Posit: Glenn and his audience identify primarily as conservative Republicans, +/- agreed? The GOP just took a sound political thrashing. Might this image represent to Beck that while his party was just solidly bitch-slapped, they'll redeem themselves in a couple years? I think that is just as plausible.
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Old Yesterday, 09:55 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, I get that, and I hear your argument that most/the vast majority of people wouldn't interpret the image that way. I wouldn't, but I could see how someone else might.

Posit: Glenn and his audience identify primarily as conservative Republicans, +/- agreed? The GOP just took a sound political thrashing. Might this image represent to Beck that while his party was just solidly bitch-slapped, they'll redeem themselves in a couple years? I think that is just as plausible.
Possible but I'd take it more seriously if he added quotes from Maya Angelou's "Still I Rise." I would not hold my breath for that.
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Old Yesterday, 12:14 PM   #271
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The Republicans didn't have a bad election last time, though. They gained seats overall, including tipping various governorships & state houses & lower ones, and, although they lost the Presidency, they didn't really lose the Senate, and the margin by which they didn't have the HOR shrank. It was a good day for most of the party other than Trump.
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Old Yesterday, 01:44 PM   #272
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I agree with Delvo on this. It wasn't a 'thrashing' for the GOP, only for Trump and in the Georgia Senate race. They did quite well in the House and governor races.
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Old Yesterday, 01:49 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Itís not a love letter to his memory. Itís supposed to be inspiration for him and his fans. The idea is they can come back from defeat like Joe Louis did. Heís very explicit about that. You havenít actually paid attention to what he said.
Why should anyone pay attention to anything a serial liar says?
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Old Yesterday, 01:52 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Itís not a love letter to his memory. Itís supposed to be inspiration for him and his fans. The idea is they can come back from defeat like Joe Louis did. Heís very explicit about that. You havenít actually paid attention to what he said.
Actually, we've paid plenty attention to what he said. That it doesn't make sense to memorialize the moment of defeat rather than the moment of eventual victory...the 'redemption'...is our point. I don't think it's us who hasn't been paying attention.
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Old Yesterday, 03:18 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Why should anyone pay attention to anything a serial liar says?
The point those wanting to take Beck at his word keep missing is that he can not be trusted at all on any subject.

Studying Beck could be interesting work for social scientists. His past statements on race might reveal his motivation if you look at them in total. Is he an ideological racist, and unconscious racist, or an opportunistic racist where it is only a means to get attention? If the last case than vague statements and dog whistles work well since it produces discussions like this one that get him more attention.
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Old Yesterday, 05:20 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
it doesn't make sense to memorialize the moment of defeat rather than the moment of eventual victory...
Whether it makes sense to you or not doesn't have any effect on the fact that that is how it is done. The closest you've come to facing/addressing that fact was doing image-searches that focused on a particular word which isn't a good word choice for this phenomenon, and claiming that that somehow made the results of a more on-topic search you'd already seen described twice just not exist. But... they still do. Do I need to link a sample of such images straight into the thread individually, or will you still deny their existence even then?

The deeper this Opposite-World denialism of something so basic & simple & common & seemingly unmistakable about the culture we live in gets, the weirder it gets. It's like watching somebody insist that our culture doesn't use red for warning/danger/problem symbols.

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Old Yesterday, 06:40 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Whether it makes sense to you or not doesn't have any effect on the fact that that is how it is done.The closest you've come to facing/addressing that fact was doing image-searche s that focused on a particular word which isn't a good word choice for this phenomenon, and claiming that that somehow made the results of a more on-topic search you'd already seen described twice just not exist. But... they still do. Do I need to link a sample of such images straight into the thread individually, or will you still deny their existence even then?
Regarding the highlighted: You're actually claiming that using the wordS "redemption", "redemption sports" and "redemption Joe Louis" is not a good choice of words when looking for a picture of Louis showing his 'redemption'?
That has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. Just jaw-droppingly illogical.


The closest you've done to proving it is a 'fact' is claiming you did several image searches using various words:

Quote:
"I just did a few Google image searches with phrases like "get knocked down get back up", "lose the battle win the war", "bent not broken", "beaten not defeated", and "defeated not destroyed".

A lot of the results are just text in the form of an image, or an emotionally neutral image like a stock image of a coach who apparently said such a thing in the context of coaching. But the ones that actually show people in one half or the other of a comeback story overwhelmingly show the first part, the negative part.
You got those results because the computer was looking for the words, "knocked down", "defeated", "destroyed" (it doesn't usually search for words like 'not').So you're going to get images of those instances. What you did NOT get were results for anything showing 'redemption' by showing the moment of defeat.

I image searched " "get knocked down get back up" and not a single image returned showing a dual image or any kind of 'redemption' moment. I searched for all your examples and the results were the same: not a single picture showing what you claimed. And most certainly, the photo of the Louis defeat did not show up. In fact, this is the only one that did:



Notice it's at the moment of victory, not defeat. I call BULL on your claim.





Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
The deeper this Opposite-World denialism of something so basic & simple & common & seemingly unmistakable about the culture we live in gets, the weirder it gets. It's like watching somebody insist that our culture doesn't use red for warning/danger/problem symbols.

Agreed. Only the person in denial is you. You've failed to support your claim over and over again.
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Old Today, 01:37 AM   #278
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Old Today, 02:23 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I image searched " "get knocked down get back up" and not a single image returned showing a dual image or any kind of 'redemption' moment.
Exactly as I said: the general concept described by that phrase is not typically depicted in either of those ways. But one of them (the latter) is the one that people here were insisting was the only way it even possibly could be depicted. (Instead it's routinely depicted with a third image type which you didn't mention in this particular sentence.)

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I searched for all your examples and the results were the same: not a single picture showing what you claimed.
Your previous sentence just described the same thing I found. We both disproved the claim that a single-image depiction the GKDGBU general type of story would need to be, or even usually is, based on an image of the successful end and not the failed middle/beginning.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
And most certainly, the photo of the Louis defeat did not show up.
I never said or thought that it would. The general GKDGBU concept has never been so narrowly defined. I'm sure our ancestors were passing it on in one form or another in Africa a hundred thousand years ago, maybe a few million if languages date back that far.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I call BULL on your claim.
Well, I call colugo, because I'm not sure what you even thought the subject was or what you thought whose positions were on that subject, now that you're seemingly agreeing with me while still acting like we're disagreeing.

* * *

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You're actually claiming that using the wordS "redemption", "redemption sports" and "redemption Joe Louis" is not a good choice of words when looking for a picture of Louis showing his 'redemption'?
"Redemption" was never a good word choice to describe Louis's story in the first place, as noted by me and Bruto a couple of pages ago, before the idea of an image search was brought up. The word "redemption" is too tied up with morality & religiosity (as in an evil person's redemption in becoming a good person, or people's souls being bought & paid for by sacrifice so "redeemed" is used in the financial sense). It's not, or at least not necessarily, about whether or not one achieves one's personal goals, and tends to be used for things that aren't conducive to being shown visually. That's why I've been referring to the kinds of personal stories we're talking about here with other words & phrases instead such as "comeback" and "get knocked down get back up" and "failure leading to success" all along. And the difference in search results demonstrates that; searching for some kinds of words & phrases finds examples of a common meme which searching for others does not find, because a doing a different search is searching for different things.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You got those results because the computer was looking for the words, "knocked down", "defeated", "destroyed" (it doesn't usually search for words like 'not').
The search results speak for themselves by containing references to both parts of the comeback story meme, either as text built in to the image or as captions & headlines & such in the pages that used the images, while the image shows only the first part, the failure/loss. If your description of how the search worked were accurate, it would have gotten different results. (Or, if it worked that way and still came up with all these GKDGBU images it wasn't even looking for, that would only be a much stronger demonstration of my point anyway, for the GKDGBU concept to be so predominant & ubiquitous that it even shows through in the results of a search that wasn't quite set up for that in the first place.)

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What you did NOT get were results for anything showing 'redemption' by showing the moment of defeat.
The GKDGBU meme isn't about "showing" redemption/success/victory. It's about showing the earlier part of the story because that's the part of the story which gets the emotional response which the meme is intended to get from its audience. If you want to evoke or depict success, you show success, but, if you want to evoke or depict the need for resilience & perseverance when things are bad, you show a scene when things were bad for somebody who then showed resilience & perseverance.

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