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Old 16th April 2018, 02:51 PM   #161
Klimax
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Worked great with Saddam, right ? Iraq is such a peaceful country without him ..
Almost worked. Afterwar was mishandled and led to issues. And question is, how well would Iraq work after Saddam would die of age. These regimes tend not to survive long after their original dictator dies. See Tito and his Yugoslavia.
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Old 16th April 2018, 03:16 PM   #162
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That OPCW mission has now been barred from entering the areas reportedly affected by the chemical attack, due to "security issues".

Russia says the team didn't get clearance from the UN, but they didn't need any.

Now Russian and Syrian security on the ground say they cannot any longer guarantee the team's safety, whatever that means.

ETA: And yet again Lavrov is maintaining the disgusting line about the Douma attack being "staged".

Last edited by Venom; 16th April 2018 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 17th April 2018, 01:01 AM   #163
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Hey Information Analyst, I've told Putin about your discovery that the numbers don't add up. He replaced Konashenkov with a clone and let him issue new numbers. Now two missiles less were intercepted at Barzah and two additional missiles were targeting Tiyas airfield (both intercepted). I've updated the table accordingly and also added details from the Empire's side about who fired what.
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Old 17th April 2018, 01:08 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Hey Information Analyst, I've told Putin about your discovery that the numbers don't add up. He replaced Konashenkov with a clone and let him issue new numbers. Now two missiles less were intercepted at Barzah and two additional missiles were targeting Tiyas airfield (both intercepted). I've updated the table accordingly and also added details from the Empire's side about who fired what.
The RAF Storm Shadows were only fired by the Tornadoes, which aren't "fighters." The Typhoons flew fighter cover for the Tornadoes.
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Old 17th April 2018, 01:18 AM   #165
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Fixed. I also just noticed that they hit 72 out of 71 targets this time. There's no shortage of Konashenkov clones, though.

edit: This time the translator needed to be replaced by a clone. The original language briefing has Pantsir shooting down 23, not 24 targets, so it fits.

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Old 17th April 2018, 08:28 AM   #166
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There was a Syrian MP on TV today who claimed that 13 Syrian soldiers had been killed by the Syrian opposition in 2013 by chemical weapons, never reported in the corporate media that I know about, and that the Syrian opposition White Helmets were invented by MI6 to present fake videos and propaganda against Assad to the media and BBC.

There is a bit about this matter at this website, but what is true, or untrue, or 'highly likely' is difficult to detect:

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/white...mark-rescuers/
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Old 17th April 2018, 08:58 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There was a Syrian MP on TV today who claimed that 13 Syrian soldiers had been killed by the Syrian opposition in 2013 by chemical weapons, never reported in the corporate media that I know about, and that the Syrian opposition White Helmets were invented by MI6 to present fake videos and propaganda against Assad to the media and BBC.

There is a bit about this matter at this website, but what is true, or untrue, or 'highly likely' is difficult to detect:

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/white...mark-rescuers/
It's not very difficult to detect:

For example:

Quote:
So far, so unclear. However the site that claimed to have the “exclusive” on Saleh’s terrorist connections in December is 21st century wire – a known fake news site. It is currently running its own fake news week in response to Channel 4’s fake news week – saying that the establishment media has contrived a “fake news” crisis.

Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/news/world/white...mark-rescuers/
Most of the other claims are equally able to be dismissed.

The BBC World Service (and Henri, if you are linking to the Duran, you *really* have a nerve calling the BBC Pravda) interviewed some of the supposed survivors of the attack who had fled to Turkish-protected areas. Their accounts were consistent with others and were credible.

The group was hiding in the basement because of the bombing when they heard something land above but not go off. Two young men ran up, saw it was gas (presumably chlorine, but this is to be determined) and rushed down and started getting people out of the basement. Some didn't make it because the gas sank so quickly. Everyone in the neighbouring basement died because they didn't hear the canisters land.

Chlorine would not only poison people, it also would displace the air, suffocating them as well, if they stayed down there even with gas masks.
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Old 17th April 2018, 02:01 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
The RAF Storm Shadows were only fired by the Tornadoes, which aren't "fighters." The Typhoons flew fighter cover for the Tornadoes.
G4s are FGAs (Fighter Ground Attack), they are the eventual target for what Tornado was meant to be, a true multi-role aircraft. Unfortunately they only achieved that in time for them to become obsolete!
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Old 17th April 2018, 02:05 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
It's conventional war vs almost scorched earth. Chemical and radiological weapons are far more indiscriminate and may linger in the environment. That's the difference.
Being a pacific islander, I think your perspective on what may linger in the environment may be a little myopic. Its been 70 years since WWII and unexploded ordinances are still quite a problem. Mainly because they are in fact, chemical weapons, and these chemicals still have quite a bit of potency
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Old 17th April 2018, 04:53 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
Being a pacific islander, I think your perspective on what may linger in the environment may be a little myopic. Its been 70 years since WWII and unexploded ordinances are still quite a problem. Mainly because they are in fact, chemical weapons, and these chemicals still have quite a bit of potency
Oh yes and I get that things like landmines for instance are controlled by treaty as well, but I think that that's the point, that these unexploded ordnances are controlled cause they're often hard to detect and indiscriminate, putting civilians and wildlife at risk.
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Old 17th April 2018, 10:09 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
Being a pacific islander, I think your perspective on what may linger in the environment may be a little myopic. Its been 70 years since WWII and unexploded ordinances are still quite a problem. Mainly because they are in fact, chemical weapons, and these chemicals still have quite a bit of potency
We're still finding unexploded bombs and shells too and we weren't as heavily bombed as Germany by far. Nothing unique about your islands. Trying to give them association to chemical weapons is however bad idea. (Dilutes meaning of "chemical weapon" to homeopathic levels)
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Old 18th April 2018, 04:52 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post
G4s are FGAs (Fighter Ground Attack), they are the eventual target for what Tornado was meant to be, a true multi-role aircraft. Unfortunately they only achieved that in time for them to become obsolete!
It's still simplistic to label them "fighters" in a context where there accompanied by actual fighters in that role.
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Old 19th April 2018, 10:26 AM   #173
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I served in a US Army Psychological Operations unit for six years. One common tactic was to target an enemy unit - say a tank battalion - with a leaflet drop. Thousands of scraps of paper, bearing a message like,
These could have been bombs.
Tomorrow they will be bombs.
We want your tanks, not your lives.
If you're not here tomorrow, no harm will come to you.
Leave your tanks and go home to your families.
And then the next day the tank battalion would get the bombs, as promised.

The day after, another leaflet drop:
You were warned. Heed our warnings!
Please don't be here the next time we come for your tanks.
These kinds of psychological attacks were used during the first Gulf War.

Obviously the tank battalion could respond by trying to move somewhere else, but tank battalions don't just vanish without a trace. It takes lots of coordination and several hours to move them, and the planes that found them the first time can certainly follow and find them again. Besides, if a simple leaflet drop drives a tank battalion out of position, that by itself is a battle won--without ever putting our own troops in harm's way to force the same result with violence.

So that's the context in which I interpret warning Russian and Syrian forces of the impending attacks. It gives people an opportunity to abandon the fight and save their own lives, but it's not like they can use the opportunity to uproot an entire weapons lab, drag it across the country, and hide it somewhere safe before the cruise missiles arrive.

ETA: Incidentally, our unit also participated in war games for conflict on the Korean peninsula. We had leaflets prepared that played on cultural concerns about bodily integrity. Messages like:
Bombs don't always kill. Sometimes they maim.
You might win the battle, but what does that matter if you lose an arm? Or a leg?
Isn't it better to be a deserter, than to be unmade?
Go home to your family while you're still a whole man.
With helpful illustrations of the risks of participating in a war. Pretty gruesome stuff, but again, the basic principle is that anything that convinces the enemy not to fight, without putting more of our own troops in harm's way, and hopefully saving even the lives of enemy troops, is a good thing to do. The US Army Psyop service impressed me as being self-serving, cynical, but also fundamentally humanitarian.

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Old 19th April 2018, 02:46 PM   #174
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If the chemical in question is just chlorine, it maybe stored as itself, not as precursor chemicals.

Then again, if it is chlorine, the explosions that destroy the lab may also disperse and thereby dilute the chlorine enough to be fairly safe by the time the smoke drifts off site.

As has been stated before, chlorine is a mixed bag as far as usefulness as a chemical weapon goes. It works, but needs to be in higher concentrations than other chemical weapons. The reports cited on this forum suggest that some of the chemical weapons used were chlorine dropped in barrels - no explosives to disperse them. Deadly only over a smaller area than other chem weapons, but enough to drift into basements and kill people who would otherwise have been protected from all but a direct hit by explosives. Enough to scare people enough to give up.

That balances against the usefulness of chlorine in industry, which means that most programs focused on eliminating chemical weapon still allow chlorine to be around.

To tell the truth, I would not be surprised if the world's most expensive military has some secret way of partially neutralizing chemical weapons while bombing sites. Blow the site up, air-burst something into the smoke cloud to react off the worst of the toxins. Sarin, for example reacts with things that have a high pH, or even with water, and is frequently only stored as precursor chemicals anyway.

The fact that it is deadly when used without warning on civilians does not automatically mean that it can't be destroyed without also harming people. It may be possible to plan the attack in ways that limit chemical exposure off-site.

Last edited by crescent; 19th April 2018 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 19th April 2018, 05:24 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
To tell the truth, I would not be surprised if the world's most expensive military has some secret way of partially neutralizing chemical weapons while bombing sites. Blow the site up, air-burst something into the smoke cloud to react off the worst of the toxins.

Jesus. Pixie-dust bombs.
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Old 19th April 2018, 05:42 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
To tell the truth, I would not be surprised if the world's most expensive military has some secret way of partially neutralizing chemical weapons while bombing sites.
Theoretically possible, but why would it be kept secret? It would definately be a PR bonus to make such weapons known.
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:08 AM   #177
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I'd like point out that Russia has literally not done anything to defend Assads regime from these air-strikes nor have they decided to retaliate militarily.

Why are they such pussies? Probably because last time the Russians went up against the Americans and their allies they ended up losing hundreds upon hundreds of Russian soldiers while only managing to kill like one or two local Kurdish militiamen.

Pathetic display.
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Old 20th April 2018, 12:56 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'd like point out that Russia has literally not done anything to defend Assads regime from these air-strikes nor have they decided to retaliate militarily.
Yet.

Quote:
Why are they such pussies? Probably because last time the Russians went up against the Americans and their allies they ended up losing hundreds upon hundreds of Russian soldiers while only managing to kill like one or two local Kurdish militiamen.

Pathetic display.
More likely because they understand the danger of escalation.
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Old 20th April 2018, 06:03 AM   #179
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Mod Warning I have moved some posts discussing the ethics of conflict and the inherent reliability of media outlets to AAH. Whilst both of these subjects may be fine in a couple of otherwise substantive and on-topic posts, this leeway is not a licence to derail.

If you want to make general ethical or philosophical points on conflict, or discuss bias in the media, please do so in threads begun for that purpose. Otherwise, please try to stay on topic and to resist the urge to derail this thread. Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.
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Old 21st April 2018, 10:17 AM   #180
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Syria hands over two unexploded cruise missiles to Russia found after US strike
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Old 21st April 2018, 01:31 PM   #181
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Additions to table:

* claims of Pentagon about Syrian defenses (40 interceptor missiles fired, none hit)
* French admit that they planned to fire 16 missiles, but 3 of the 6 ship-based failed to launch, and 1 of the 10 jet-based failed as well.
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Old 21st April 2018, 01:48 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Does this please you?
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Old 21st April 2018, 04:28 PM   #183
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Daily Mail are reporting that Major General Jonathan Shaw a former head of the SAS says that nobody in the military believes that President Assad was behind the chemical attack in Douma.

“Why would Assad use chemical weapons at this time? He’s won the war.
That’s not just my opinion, it is shared by senior commanders in the US military."
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Old 22nd April 2018, 02:37 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
A claim is not proof, especially in the absence of photographs.
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Old 22nd April 2018, 02:40 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Daily Mail are reporting that Major General Jonathan Shaw a former head of the SAS says that nobody in the military believes that President Assad was behind the chemical attack in Douma.

“Why would Assad use chemical weapons at this time? He’s won the war.
That’s not just my opinion, it is shared by senior commanders in the US military."
Admiral West has publicly said the same sort of thing with regard to that Syrian situation. It makes a change from all these politicians and TV journalists saying it is all established fact that the Syrians and Russians did it, without presenting any solid evidence to back it up. There has been some suggestion that these, or some of these, chemical weapons inspectors are connected to the CIA and that they are not impartial, which means the truth may never out:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other...war/ar-AAvSWjT

Quote:
Major General Jonathan Shaw said: 'Why would Assad use chemical weapons at this time? He's won the war.
'That's not just my opinion, it is shared by senior commanders in the US military. There is no rationale behind Assad's involvement whatsoever.

'He's convinced the rebels to leave occupied areas in buses. He's gained their territory. So why would he be bothering gassing them?

Speaking exclusively to The Mail on Sunday, the ex-SAS and Parachute Regiment commander added: 'The jihadists and the various opposition groups who've been fighting against Assad have much greater motivation to launch a chemical weapons attack and make it look like Assad was responsible.
'Their motivation being that they want to keep the Americans involved in the war – following Trump saying the US was going to leave Syria for other people to sort out.'

His views were echoed by Admiral Lord West, former head of the Royal Navy, who said: 'If I was advising President Assad, why would I say use chemical weapons at this point? It doesn't make any sense.

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Old 24th April 2018, 02:38 AM   #186
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These Isis and Syrian opposition people believe in causing death by dangerous driving and in killing twenty people at a Yemen wedding party with a Saudi Arabian missile.

Baroness Caroline Cox seems to have the right idea. She has said recently on TV that the Syrian people think the BBC is biased. There needs to be hard facts about that supposed chemical attack on Douma, not assumptions or bare faced lies. It must have cost a fortune to shoot off those cruise missiles, and for what?

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/362687-syria-military-uk-isis/
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Old 24th April 2018, 11:18 PM   #187
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Are the Russians Correct?

Originally Posted by Patrick Lang, retired US military intelligence
[...] I am told by several foreign sources with access to the information needed to make a valid judgment that the Russians are correct. These people are friendly to the United States as are their governments. Over two thirds of the US coalition missiles failed to reach their targets. Why? All the reasons cited above must have played a role in this aerial defeat. Obsolescent weapons, a fully integrated air defense and skill brought to the fight.

There is an ongoing investigation to determine what is to be done to rectify the situation.

At the same time it is clear that there was an understanding between the governments to insure that Russian red lines were not crossed. The evidence for the Douma gas attack is non-existent. The film evidence has now been thoroughly de-bunked as part of the information operations (propaganda) of the White Helmets scheme funded by the Saudis and largely conducted by the UK info warriors of 77 Regiment. It seems clear that US DoD was not privy to that IO project and for that Reason SECDEF Mattis was blind-sided by the deception. The struck targets (successful or not) have long been known to the US IC as facilities of the former Syrian Government chemical warfare programs. The Russians were told to stay out of those areas and so a reasonable compromise was made with a president easily fooled by social media and under heavy pressure by a population equally easy to deceive.

Nevertheless, most of the missiles failed and that failure must be dealt with.

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 24th April 2018 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 24th April 2018, 11:43 PM   #188
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Are you no bothering answering direct questions now, CE?
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Old 26th April 2018, 08:59 AM   #189
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It's becoming increasingly obvious that the decision to cruise missile Syria over an alleged chemical attack was based on propaganda by the White Helmets, and Sunni Islamic extremists, and false evidence and faulty intelligence. I notice that British TV News seems to have completely changed their subjects in the past few days, and the matter is now barely mentioned, if at all.
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Old 26th April 2018, 09:46 AM   #190
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Why would you expect them to still be talking about this event weeks afterwards, Henri? Don't you think other stuff happens?
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Old 1st May 2018, 02:03 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Why would you expect them to still be talking about this event weeks afterwards, Henri? Don't you think other stuff happens?
It's rather important if a country goes to war on false pretenses and lies and fabricated evidence. Have the police been informed?

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Old 1st May 2018, 02:16 AM   #192
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Oh, you know it's false pretenses now, do you. Righto.

And since when would the actions of the armed forces at the behest of the government be a police matter?
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