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Old 19th May 2018, 10:46 AM   #1041
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I think it is unfair to continue trying to roll this conversation back to page 1. There were multiple witnesses to what happened, including the two men who were arrested. These officers' own police chief has acknowledged that they screwed up despite initially defending their actions - the chief admitting his own error in this regard, a rare occurrence for any high-level public official.

What is compelling you to play this game?
What compels me to 'play this game' is the amazement at how posters extrapolate from virtually nothing.

You say we have the two men as witnesses: what is their version of events? I haven't read anything substantial from them. So let's hear it.

The police said that they did something vaguely wrong, whole asserting it was legal. So what are they saying was specifically wrong? They are saying it was a clean arrest and detainment, remember. So let's hear it.

Eta: by far the most amazing thing ITT IMO is that posters jump to conclusions based solely on skin color, but if I pose an equally plausible scenario which fully fits the facts, I'm unreasonable. It just boggles the mind.
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Old 19th May 2018, 03:56 PM   #1042
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What compels me to 'play this game' is the amazement at how posters extrapolate from virtually nothing.

Wait, what? An admission of error by the Police Chief is "virtually nothing"? What colour is the sky in your world? Is it blue like in the real world?

Seriously, this is a ridiculous level of denialism, even for you.
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Old 19th May 2018, 04:24 PM   #1043
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Wait, what? An admission of error by the Police Chief is "virtually nothing"? What colour is the sky in your world? Is it blue like in the real world?

Seriously, this is a ridiculous level of denialism, even for you.
What did the Chief say was in error? Are the officers involved in this situation facing any consequences for their error?
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Old 19th May 2018, 05:36 PM   #1044
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
What did the Chief say was in error? Are the officers involved in this situation facing any consequences for their error?

You could try reading the previously linked article.

As for the officers, well, when have police officers ever faced any kind of long-term consequences for their actions. That's a pretty rare occurrence.
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Old 19th May 2018, 07:02 PM   #1045
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I think the consensus of many here is that the action of the police was technically legal but badly done. That seems to be what the chief of police is saying.

Thankfully, it's possible to admit to an error without condemning oneself of a crime, and considering how often people in authority seem to forget this and double down on errors and misconduct, I'm for taking the chief of police at his word. No crimes were committed but there was room for discretion, and it was not well used.
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Old 19th May 2018, 08:28 PM   #1046
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Wait, what? An admission of error by the Police Chief is "virtually nothing"? What colour is the sky in your world? Is it blue like in the real world?

Seriously, this is a ridiculous level of denialism, even for you.
Addressed repeatedly upthread.

But just for you, and very, very clearly:

The police admitted exactly squat. Do you understand what squat means? It means nothing. They admitted to nothing in particular. Saying they did something wrong, but legal, is to fool stupid people into thinking something of consequence was acknowledged. There was not. Exactly squat was acknowledged as wrongdoing.

Denialism is not the problem here. Being gullible is.

But perhaps the police acknowledged some specific wrongdoing? That would certainly be a different story. Redeeming, even. Go ahead, the floor is yours. What was it?
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Old 21st May 2018, 07:41 AM   #1047
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What compels me to 'play this game' is the amazement at how posters extrapolate from virtually nothing.

You say we have the two men as witnesses: what is their version of events? I haven't read anything substantial from them. So let's hear it.

The police said that they did something vaguely wrong, whole asserting it was legal. So what are they saying was specifically wrong? They are saying it was a clean arrest and detainment, remember. So let's hear it.
Why are you so convinced that despite all the evidence from everyone at the Starbucks other than the manager that they had to have done something? We have the testimony of the other customers who didn't understand why they were being removed from starbucks.

You are using the same basic thing that intelligent design people do and hunt for gaps. Well the manager hasn't publicly told her story, but why is that so important in the face of all the other witnesses who told their stories?

You really are grasping for anything you can find to prove that these two men despite all evidence must have been in the wrong. What level of evidence would actually convince you they did nothing wrong?
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Old 21st May 2018, 08:31 AM   #1048
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You really are grasping for anything you can find to prove that these two men despite all evidence must have been in the wrong. What level of evidence would actually convince you they did nothing wrong?

Evidence that they're actually white, perhaps? I've noticed that this hunting for ways to blame the victims doesn't happen nearly as often when the victims are white men. There's a sort of "they were asking for it" meme still inherent to mainstream American culture, which intrudes with minorities victimized by LE or other government agents much the same as it does with women who are victims of sexual assault or domestic violence.
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Old 21st May 2018, 09:28 AM   #1049
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why are you so convinced that despite all the evidence from everyone at the Starbucks other than the manager that they had to have done something? We have the testimony of the other customers who didn't understand why they were being removed from starbucks.
That is a lie. Couple of lies in fact. I am not convinced that the men did anything wrong, and have said so repeatedly. You are lying to claim otherwise.

Yes, I think two people claim to have seen and presumably heard everything that transpired with these two men from their entry to the store. I find it a little odd that these witnesses claim that they stopped chatting, working on their laptops, etc to focus on these two men from the second they walked in. No, actually I don't find it odd. I don't believe it. I think witnesses might have noticed them sitting quietly and that's probably about it. Then they jump up after the fact and claim they saw and heard every detail.

Quote:
You are using the same basic thing that intelligent design people do and hunt for gaps. Well the manager hasn't publicly told her story, but why is that so important in the face of all the other witnesses who told their stories?
FFS, that was the trigger event. Yes, it is absolutely critical to know what the manager says happened and what the men say happened in order to figure out what ******* happened.

This is the whole ball o' wax: you, and others, assume that because someone is black that magically proves racist motivations on the other parties. This is not a reasonable position. Being black does not demonstrate someone else's inner thoughts.

If the men were white, how would you read this story? If it is at all different, then you are only projecting race as a motivation, pure and simple. Assuming that 'well, they're black, and anytime a black man is treated unfairly must inarguably be due to racism' is foolish. Sometimes they are just treated unfairly, like everyone else.

Quote:
You really are grasping for anything you can find to prove that these two men despite all evidence must have been in the wrong. What level of evidence would actually convince you they did nothing wrong?
Yet again, you are lying. I do not think the men did anything wrong, and consider the manager to be the most likely guilty party. The cops were just being cops, acting as I would expect cops to treat anyone of any race.

The burden of proof is on you and others to show that racism was the motivator. Your assumptions do not suffice.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 11:15 PM   #1050
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You could try reading the previously linked article.
Or you could just tell me what the Chief said the officer did that was wrong. I'd like to see somebody from the Black Folks Are Never Wrong contingent summarize it for me.

Quote:
As for the officers, well, when have police officers ever faced any kind of long-term consequences for their actions. That's a pretty rare occurrence.
This is a high profile incident. The Chief of Police has told us that the officers made a mistake and he told us what that mistake was (so I've heard). This can't be swept under the rug. The officers will suffer consequences for their reprehensible actions (if what they did was really bad)
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Old 22nd May 2018, 11:17 PM   #1051
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why are you so convinced that despite all the evidence from everyone at the Starbucks other than the manager that they had to have done something? We have the testimony of the other customers who didn't understand why they were being removed from starbucks.

You are using the same basic thing that intelligent design people do and hunt for gaps. Well the manager hasn't publicly told her story, but why is that so important in the face of all the other witnesses who told their stories?

You really are grasping for anything you can find to prove that these two men despite all evidence must have been in the wrong. What level of evidence would actually convince you they did nothing wrong?
Video (with audio) of the entire incident.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 03:57 PM   #1052
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This is not a reasonable position.
...yeah, its a complete and utter strawman.
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Old 21st June 2018, 11:06 PM   #1053
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I haven't seen any mention in this discussion of this other video shot by an African American gentleman who was denied access to a Starbucks bathroom right before a White customer was allowed to use the bathroom before ordering.

This a few days old so maybe it's already been discussed and I missed it. If so, I apologize. But it's important in the context of Starbucks problem with race because it's evidence that Philadelphia wasn't a one time deal.

This was shot back in January or February at a Los Angeles area Starbucks but it didn't get any traction until the Philadelphia incident
And here's yet another video of an African-American being asked to leave a Starbucks because he didn't order anything. It turns out that this doctoral student (and he's obviously telling the truth about his status at Northeastern because his diction is totally that of a refined educated person) had made a purchase that morning. And we know he's telling the truth about buying something several hours earlier because he is a Reverend (and we know that he's a Reverend because he said so and because his temperament is totally Man-of-Godish).

The video was shot in November 2016 so it's prior to the infamous Philadelphia incident. Since Starbucks has already atoned for the Philadelphia incident by turning their stores into homeless shelters this video probably isn't going to be a PR nightmare for the company. But it does show that the problem of African-American men thinking that they can just hangout in a Starbucks as long as they want without making any purchases and getting angry when they are asked to leave isn't an isolated incident. It's happened in Philadelphia, Los Angeles, and now Charlotte.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 01:04 AM   #1054
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
And here's yet another video of an African-American being asked to leave a Starbucks because he didn't order anything. It turns out that this doctoral student (and he's obviously telling the truth about his status at Northeastern because his diction is totally that of a refined educated person) had made a purchase that morning. And we know he's telling the truth about buying something several hours earlier because he is a Reverend (and we know that he's a Reverend because he said so and because his temperament is totally Man-of-Godish).

The video was shot in November 2016 so it's prior to the infamous Philadelphia incident. Since Starbucks has already atoned for the Philadelphia incident by turning their stores into homeless shelters this video probably isn't going to be a PR nightmare for the company. But it does show that the problem of African-American men thinking that they can just hangout in a Starbucks as long as they want without making any purchases and getting angry when they are asked to leave isn't an isolated incident. It's happened in Philadelphia, Los Angeles, and now Charlotte.
If your contention that some black people have sat in a Starbucks for a long time with no intention of purchasing anything, and that sometimes staff are justified in asking black people to leave, then that's not surprising.

However, that doesn't seem to address the fact that racial prejudice played a part in this incident, and most people here, as well as the senior management of Starbucks*, think that racial prejudice is wrong.




*Not having any more information, I have no reason to doubt that they are sincere in their aim to attack racial prejudice in Starbucks and that their personal motives align with their business motives.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 06:08 AM   #1055
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
But it does show that the problem of African-American men thinking that they can just hangout in a Starbucks as long as they want without making any purchases and getting angry when they are asked to leave isn't an isolated incident. It's happened in Philadelphia, Los Angeles, and now Charlotte.
You have evidence to show that this is somehow connected to the colour of their skin, rather than any other common factor? Or is it only African-Americans who get asked to leave in such circumstances?
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Old 22nd June 2018, 06:25 PM   #1056
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
If your contention that some black people have sat in a Starbucks for a long time with no intention of purchasing anything, and that sometimes staff are justified in asking black people to leave, then that's not surprising.

However, that doesn't seem to address the fact that racial prejudice played a part in this incident, and most people here, as well as the senior management of Starbucks*, think that racial prejudice is wrong.




*Not having any more information, I have no reason to doubt that they are sincere in their aim to attack racial prejudice in Starbucks and that their personal motives align with their business motives.
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You have evidence to show that this is somehow connected to the colour of their skin, rather than any other common factor? Or is it only African-Americans who get asked to leave in such circumstances?
Please don't feed the racist trolls.
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