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Old 6th November 2018, 09:59 AM   #3121
lomiller
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
I loathe and despise any cryptocurrency that requires mining. Does nobody understand the impact of mining rigs?
From a previous post I made

Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
This paper finds that the on their own, the power requirements of Bitcoin are sufficient to drive global warming to unacceptable levels.

http://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-018-0321-8
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:26 AM   #3122
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
That's insane.

So Bitcoin is not only NOT the most important creation in the history of mantm, and not only pretty useless for anything but speculation, and not only is it used by criminals to dodge the law, but it's an inherent force for evil in the world?
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Old 6th November 2018, 10:29 AM   #3123
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Price at the end of October: $6,300
Well, you gotta hand it to BTC, it defies prediction.
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Old 6th November 2018, 12:37 PM   #3124
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
If you monitor the exchanges the current actual price fluctuates quite a bit.
I thought that might be the case. Which exchanges do you monitor?

Quote:
This allows a bit of room for transaction fees.
What are the typical fees?

Quote:
Personally I like to sell at +$100... Never sell at a loss no matter what.
Chris B.
Makes sense. Right now the (average) price is remarkably stable, but many are predicting a huge bull run up to Christmas. If you sell at +$100 and the price then keeps going up - will you continue selling, buy some back, or just keep holding what you have?
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Old 6th November 2018, 01:07 PM   #3125
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, you gotta hand it to BTC, it defies prediction.
Not really. PartSkeptic accurately predicted that the price would fall, just not exactly when and by how much. If you had any Bitcoin back then selling would still have been a good idea.

The more information and understanding you have of a market, the more accurately you can predict where it will go. Bitcoin hasn't (yet) dropped to $100 because it has morphed from 'digital cash' into 'institutional investment'.

Morgan Stanley Report: Bitcoin’s “rapidly morphing thesis”
Quote:
The report traces the evolution of Bitcoin from its varying roles of digital cash, a new fundraising mechanism, a method for the store of value, to its most recent incarnation as a “new institutional investment class.”

The report showed that 48 percent of funding for Bitcoin came from hedge funds. A further 48 percent came from venture capital with the remaining 3 percent found in the form of private equity.

In terms of the origins of Bitcoin investment, over half has come from U.S. based investors, with China and Hong Kong coming in second at 9 percent and the U.K. – third at 6 percent.
This explains why the price has stabilized at ~$6000, rather the much lower price you would expect based on its lack of utility as 'digital cash'. People who understand investment markets could have predicted this a long time ago.

However it doesn't invalidate what we were saying about Bitcoin's fundamentals, rather it validates them. Far from being a replacement for fiat currency, it is now just another investment vehicle based on shared delusions. The only reason it still continues to have 'value' is that Wall Street investors need it to have value.
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Old 6th November 2018, 02:07 PM   #3126
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
I thought that might be the case. Which exchanges do you monitor?

What are the typical fees?

Makes sense. Right now the (average) price is remarkably stable, but many are predicting a huge bull run up to Christmas. If you sell at +$100 and the price then keeps going up - will you continue selling, buy some back, or just keep holding what you have?
There are a few. I'd rather not pinpoint info that applies to me personally.

Normally you can expect to pay 0.1% to 0.2% trading fees at most major exchanges.

I cited Coinbase be used for the experiment as they have a flat fee of $2.99 for trades up to $200. Anything higher than this you'll pay 1.49% which is a lot.

So aside from the experiment, Coinbase should be considered mainly the cashout point to convert BTC back to USD. Remember, up to $200 you're ok at $2.99 per transaction flat fee but the 1.49% fee is too high for day trading larger transactions there. You'll need 0.1% to 0.2% fees elsewhere for those.

Of course I have sold my 10% day trading purse before, good news hit and the price grew legs and continued to rise. Normally good news increases the price and bad news does the opposite, so monitor BTC news closely. If the price becomes an upward trend without decline you must put your day trading aside and concentrate on your holding purse. Set an unrealistic magic number and if it reaches that, sell 50%. It will decline after it peaks. (Bad news always follows record gains) Wait for the decline to stabilize and resume day trading with 10% again.

BTC should be a 2 part investment strategy, one for holding and the other for day trading. Profit can be cashed out or reinvested in BTC. Some guys do this but aside from buying a few back at half price or less (to replace my 50% sold), I prefer stacker bars of Silver bullion. (My precious) Most Bullion exchanges accept BTC. After all, you don't want to be in the category of being a BTC millionaire only on paper.
Chris B.
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Old 6th November 2018, 02:22 PM   #3127
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's insane.

So Bitcoin is not only NOT the most important creation in the history of mantm, and not only pretty useless for anything but speculation, and not only is it used by criminals to dodge the law, but it's an inherent force for evil in the world?
To be fair, speculation and dodging the laws would be two things it's good for.
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Old 6th November 2018, 04:57 PM   #3128
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Not really. PartSkeptic accurately predicted that the price would fall, just not exactly when and by how much.
You must be reading this thread with your eyes closed.
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Old 14th November 2018, 03:01 PM   #3129
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The plane hurtles towards the ocean.
low 5678, last 5824.

This should alarm bitcoin holders and holders of all cryptos. It may be too late to realise profits in meaningful volume, and so it should be. This energy guzzling pyramid game is a disgrace.
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Old 14th November 2018, 03:02 PM   #3130
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The plane hurtles towards the ocean.
low 5678, last 5824.

This should alarm bitcoin holders and holders of all cryptos. It may be too late to realise profits in meaningful volume, and so it should be. This energy guzzling pyramid game is a disgrace.
HODL!!!
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Old 14th November 2018, 04:45 PM   #3131
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Originally Posted by Mr Salk View Post
HODL!!!
Hold ? No ! Buy !
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Old 15th November 2018, 06:55 PM   #3132
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The plane hurtles towards the ocean.
low 5678, last 5824.

This should alarm bitcoin holders and holders of all cryptos. It may be too late to realise profits in meaningful volume, and so it should be. This energy guzzling pyramid game is a disgrace.
With Bitcoin I am with you. But not all coins in the space are the same. A limited few have an actual use case; if ETH can move beyond PoW successfully it might have a future. It clearly won't serve as the internet 3.0 as initially promised, however.

It is certainly an interesting time in cryptocurrency development.
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Old 16th November 2018, 10:50 AM   #3133
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
The Most Important Creation In The History Of Man.




Lol

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Old 16th November 2018, 03:32 PM   #3134
ChrisBFRPKY
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The plane hurtles towards the ocean.
low 5678, last 5824.

This should alarm bitcoin holders and holders of all cryptos. It may be too late to realise profits in meaningful volume, and so it should be. This energy guzzling pyramid game is a disgrace.
This is not alarming at all. Every BTC trader that follows the news knew the price would be falling. Whether the price decline was a self fulfilling prophecy or not, now that's the interesting part.

Above you say "It may be too late to realise profits in meaningful volume". If you can't profit with BTC, you'll need to give up any thought of financial gain on anything, because it doesn't get much easier than BTC.
Chris B.

BTC= $5444.91
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Old 16th November 2018, 03:49 PM   #3135
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Above you say "It may be too late to realise profits in meaningful volume". If you can't profit with BTC, you'll need to give up any thought of financial gain on anything, because it doesn't get much easier than BTC.


Chris B.

Chris the same can be said of Poker if you are a student of the game, know the odds, and can read people. But for you to win at poker, somebody has to lose. The same can be said of horse races. It requires complete discipline to do it. It's the same with Bitcoin or any other speculative product.



And let's face it. At present Bitcoin is nothing more than bytes on a machine somewhere and has no real intrinsic value outside of converting it into other cryptos or back into fiat.



If you follow the market every minute of every day, have stop and go points as you say you do and have enough discipline to follow your nose, you can. But what about Mom and Pop investors who were told last November that it was the next big thing, and used their savings and also borrowed against their house to buy in at $18,000. Most likely they are bankrupt now or working three jobs each to save their house.


Not everybody can make money on spec. Somebody has to lose.



Norm
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Last edited by fromdownunder; 16th November 2018 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 16th November 2018, 09:09 PM   #3136
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
The Most Important Creation In The History Of Man.




Lol

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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
The Most Important Creation In The History Of Man.
Your short term memory is seriously deficient.

Reminder.
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Old 16th November 2018, 11:12 PM   #3137
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Chris the same can be said of Poker if you are a student of the game, know the odds, and can read people. But for you to win at poker, somebody has to lose. The same can be said of horse races. It requires complete discipline to do it. It's the same with Bitcoin or any other speculative product.



And let's face it. At present Bitcoin is nothing more than bytes on a machine somewhere and has no real intrinsic value outside of converting it into other cryptos or back into fiat.



If you follow the market every minute of every day, have stop and go points as you say you do and have enough discipline to follow your nose, you can. But what about Mom and Pop investors who were told last November that it was the next big thing, and used their savings and also borrowed against their house to buy in at $18,000. Most likely they are bankrupt now or working three jobs each to save their house.


Not everybody can make money on spec. Somebody has to lose.



Norm
Norm, good points all. Buying at the top is a bad piece of luck alright. But historically BTC always recovers and always eclipses its previous high. So it's really not like poker. Even though some may have bought in high, all they need is time and patience. It will recover and even increase. A $3 BTC buy in price was considered high at one time and people argued it would never get to $3 again. I didn't get in on those, but I did manage to get in at the $300 level.

Panic sellers never profit and that's the reason for most day to day volatility in trading. You're right, someone is losing money when they sell below their buy in value and others are cashing in on this. One must decide which type of trader do you wanna be?
Chris B.
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Old 17th November 2018, 05:43 AM   #3138
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Panic sellers never profit and that's the reason for most day to day volatility in trading. You're right, someone is losing money when they sell below their buy in value and others are cashing in on this. One must decide which type of trader do you wanna be?
Chris B.
I've decided I wanna be one of the traders who cashes in. Are you telling me that the traders on the losing side are on that side cos they wanna sell below their buy value? Why do they wanna do that? Is it some kind of financial masochism?
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Old 17th November 2018, 06:36 AM   #3139
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I've decided I wanna be one of the traders who cashes in. Are you telling me that the traders on the losing side are on that side cos they wanna sell below their buy value? Why do they wanna do that? Is it some kind of financial masochism?
If you had shorted bitcoin last November you would have made a killing.

Do you still think that shorting today is the way to go?
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Old 17th November 2018, 06:54 AM   #3140
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you had shorted bitcoin last November you would have made a killing.

Do you still think that shorting today is the way to go?
I'm not sure in what way your answers relate to my questions. Let me put it another way. If people short at the right time and that's because they wanna make a killing; does that mean that people who short at the wrong time do so because they desire to lose their money?
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Old 17th November 2018, 07:26 AM   #3141
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There is no shortage of gypsies on this thread who think that there is no "wrong" time to short bitcoin (not that they will ever do it).
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Old 17th November 2018, 07:34 AM   #3142
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There is no shortage of gypsies on this thread who think that there is no "wrong" time to short bitcoin (not that they will ever do it).
Im not concerned about what the abundance of gypsies thinks or does. It would be more interesting to know what you think. Do you think that there's ever a "wrong" time to short Bitcoin?
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Old 17th November 2018, 07:58 AM   #3143
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Im not concerned about what the abundance of gypsies thinks or does. It would be more interesting to know what you think. Do you think that there's ever a "wrong" time to short Bitcoin?
I wouldn't dare pick a time but history shows that buyers fare better than sellers.
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Old 17th November 2018, 02:24 PM   #3144
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I wouldn't dare pick a time but history shows that buyers fare better than sellers.
That statement makes no sense. For every buyer there is a seller, and for buyers to profit they have to sell.
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Old 17th November 2018, 02:28 PM   #3145
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Norm, good points all. Buying at the top is a bad piece of luck alright. But historically BTC always recovers and always eclipses its previous high.
Bitcoin has only existed for less than a decade, and has only been publicly traded for about 5 years. That's not a long enough track-record to make statements like this. Also, for the past year, it hasn't been true and the trend has been downward.

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
So it's really not like poker. Even though some may have bought in high, all they need is time and patience. It will recover and even increase.
You don't have the evidence to make statements like that. It's very possible bitcoin will never again hit the 18k mark, and it may never again return to an upward trend.


Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
A $3 BTC buy in price was considered high at one time and people argued it would never get to $3 again. I didn't get in on those, but I did manage to get in at the $300 level.
Then I hope you sold and realized your profit.

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Panic sellers never profit and that's the reason for most day to day volatility in trading. You're right, someone is losing money when they sell below their buy in value and others are cashing in on this. One must decide which type of trader do you wanna be?
Chris B.
What kind of trader do you want to be?

That's a stupid emotional argument. It's designed to shame people into holding on to an investment they think is a bad one. The truth is you don't know what direction bitcoin is going in the future, and for that reason you can't tell someone if selling (or buying) is a good decision or not. You certainly can't say someone can "choose" to be a profitable investor by choosing to hold on to their investment. At least not honestly.
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Old 17th November 2018, 06:16 PM   #3146
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
That statement makes no sense. For every buyer there is a seller, and for buyers to profit they have to sell.
Why doesn't that make sense?

Hold on to your BTC long enough and you can sell it at a profit. It still remains to be seen if that will apply to those who bought BTC last December but anybody who bought BTC more than a year ago is still laughing.
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Old 17th November 2018, 06:29 PM   #3147
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I've decided I wanna be one of the traders who cashes in. Are you telling me that the traders on the losing side are on that side cos they wanna sell below their buy value? Why do they wanna do that? Is it some kind of financial masochism?
In any type of trading you will always find panic sellers. These are the folks who have invested a chunk of cash and lose their nerve when prices start falling.

Just as in the stock market there are those in Crypto who sell at a loss when the price drops, for fear of losing a larger percentage of their investment. They're willing to accept a small loss. I'm not.

Why do people do this? I dunno? If you find the answer to that you'll control pretty much all financial markets.
Chris B.
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Old 17th November 2018, 06:48 PM   #3148
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Bitcoin has only existed for less than a decade, and has only been publicly traded for about 5 years. That's not a long enough track-record to make statements like this. Also, for the past year, it hasn't been true and the trend has been downward.



You don't have the evidence to make statements like that. It's very possible bitcoin will never again hit the 18k mark, and it may never again return to an upward trend.




Then I hope you sold and realized your profit.



What kind of trader do you want to be?

That's a stupid emotional argument. It's designed to shame people into holding on to an investment they think is a bad one. The truth is you don't know what direction bitcoin is going in the future, and for that reason you can't tell someone if selling (or buying) is a good decision or not. You certainly can't say someone can "choose" to be a profitable investor by choosing to hold on to their investment. At least not honestly.
If you'll do the research you'll find BTC has always had ups and downs. It always drops just after a peak in price then recovers. Upon good news the new peak price will surpass the old peak price. It may take some time to do so but BTC has been profitable for me and others who have invested for the long term.

I'm not saying I can see into the future, but looking to the past I see no negatives about my BTC investment at all. If you do not hold your investment, that's your business. True of any investment. Personally I've done better by holding my BTC investment than I would have by short selling it when it declined in value. But that's me.

You'll need to determine what works for you I guess. I'm just saying there is money to be made in BTC and that's honest, factual and verified.

Chris B.
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Old 18th November 2018, 02:14 AM   #3149
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why doesn't that make sense?

Hold on to your BTC long enough and you can sell it at a profit. It still remains to be seen if that will apply to those who bought BTC last December but anybody who bought BTC more than a year ago is still laughing.
No they are not laughing, they are crying, they clung to dreams of higher prices, and will find great pain in taking profits way below those when greed rendered profit taking a notion for the level headed only.
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Old 18th November 2018, 05:55 AM   #3150
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
No they are not laughing, they are crying, they clung to dreams of higher prices, and will find great pain in taking profits way below those when greed rendered profit taking a notion for the level headed only.
A profit is a profit. Most people (TA practitioners excepted) never realize the maximum profit that their speculation could yield. Just beating the average (or even just getting the average if it is a profit) is good enough for these investors. Only cry babies would bemoan not selling at the difficult to predict peak.
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Old 18th November 2018, 06:05 AM   #3151
ChrisBFRPKY
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Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
And at the height of the frenzy, it was up around $1,250. Ask the guy who bought, say, 20 BTC at that point, and whose $25,000 investment is now worth about $9,500, what BTC is "up to".
Just a reminder from 2014......................
Chris B.
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Old 18th November 2018, 06:16 AM   #3152
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
In any type of trading you will always find panic sellers. These are the folks who have invested a chunk of cash and lose their nerve when prices start falling.

Just as in the stock market there are those in Crypto who sell at a loss when the price drops, for fear of losing a larger percentage of their investment. They're willing to accept a small loss. I'm not.

Why do people do this? I dunno? If you find the answer to that you'll control pretty much all financial markets.
Chris B.
The answer has to do with such things as leverage, as well as I'll advised investment of funds required for day to day expenditure, and so on. Some people need money but they've stupidly invested it in a slow asset like bitcoin producing no revenue; now down in value two thirds from its speculative peak, and going nowhere obvious but down further. You may be faced not with the choice of suffering a small loss, but the certainty of suffering a big one.
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Old 18th November 2018, 08:56 AM   #3153
kayle
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searched, seems not mentioned in this forum -- Initiative Q. has really no one got an invitation here nor posted an invitation? is this place Q-free? great then
of course it is nothing like btc, but , well, current and popular
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Old 18th November 2018, 03:34 PM   #3154
Mycroft
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why doesn't that make sense?
Because to "win" you have to buy then sell at a profit. If you buy and don't sell, then your status as a winner or loser is suspended until you do sell.

Also because every seller was first a buyer.

And because you can't tell the future, banal aphorisms are useless.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Hold on to your BTC long enough and you can sell it at a profit.
You can't state that as a truism. If you buy today you have no idea if you will gain or lose.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It still remains to be seen if that will apply to those who bought BTC last December but anybody who bought BTC more than a year ago is still laughing.
Are they? Or are they crying because they didn't sell closer to it's peak? The rational response to having an asset that volitile is to be very worried about where it will go next.
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Old 18th November 2018, 03:36 PM   #3155
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
A profit is a profit. Most people (TA practitioners excepted) never realize the maximum profit that their speculation could yield. Just beating the average (or even just getting the average if it is a profit) is good enough for these investors. Only cry babies would bemoan not selling at the difficult to predict peak.
Cry-babies? Why the insulting language?
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Old 18th November 2018, 03:44 PM   #3156
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
If you'll do the research you'll find BTC has always had ups and downs.
That statement is amazingly banal, and applies to almost every comodity that can be traded.

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
It always drops just after a peak...
The very definition of "peak", and so banal as to be useless.

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
...in price then recovers.
Again, you can't predict this, and past history does not show this to be true.


Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Upon good news the new peak price will surpass the old peak price. It may take some time to do so but BTC has been profitable for me and others who have invested for the long term.
You don't know what "long term" means. Bitcoin has existed for less than ten years and has been publicly traded for about five years.

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I'm not saying I can see into the future, but looking to the past I see no negatives about my BTC investment at all.
That's only true if you're very selective at what you're looking at. For the past year it's been in steady decline, and that year is a very significant portion of it's overall history.
Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
You'll need to determine what works for you I guess. I'm just saying there is money to be made in BTC and that's honest, factual and verified.
That's not at all verified. What can be verified is that people have made money in the past, but that doesn't mean there is money to be made now.
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Old 18th November 2018, 04:23 PM   #3157
ChrisBFRPKY
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
That statement is amazingly banal, and applies to almost every comodity that can be traded.



The very definition of "peak", and so banal as to be useless.



Again, you can't predict this, and past history does not show this to be true.




You don't know what "long term" means. Bitcoin has existed for less than ten years and has been publicly traded for about five years.



That's only true if you're very selective at what you're looking at. For the past year it's been in steady decline, and that year is a very significant portion of it's overall history.


That's not at all verified. What can be verified is that people have made money in the past, but that doesn't mean there is money to be made now.
"Banal" good word. Looks like I peaked your interest though so perhaps a slight misuse......

Please continue to not invest in BTC, it's obviously the right decision for you not to. I'm sure you've worked out it's all a scam anyway.

Chris B.
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Old 18th November 2018, 04:26 PM   #3158
ChrisBFRPKY
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Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
So, as I suspected, you can't. The point of my question was to show how thinly capitalized BTC is, despite the claims of "$6 billion market cap" and so on. Even at the current price, it's still a bubble.

ETA: $378 now. A leaking bubble, at that.



So why on earth would anyone "invest" in something that has lost two-thirds of its value in six months, can't be redeemed readily, and can't even be spent readily?
Another trip down memory lane from 2014.
Chris B.
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One could choose to be civil though and still disagree. For example, since I know Bigfoot does exist, I don't call others "idiot" just because they're uneducated on the subject and share a different view based on that lack of experience. Chris B.
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Old 18th November 2018, 05:42 PM   #3159
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Dec. 16th, 2017 - 19,650

Nov. 18th, 2018 - 5,549

another trip down memory lane
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Old 18th November 2018, 05:52 PM   #3160
ChrisBFRPKY
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You mean short term memory I guess.
Chris B.

12-21-2016 BTC= $807
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One could choose to be civil though and still disagree. For example, since I know Bigfoot does exist, I don't call others "idiot" just because they're uneducated on the subject and share a different view based on that lack of experience. Chris B.

Last edited by ChrisBFRPKY; 18th November 2018 at 05:55 PM. Reason: added info
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