Any Updates on Mark Basile's Study?

[grandmastershek]

Quote:

We are happy to report that Mark Basile´s red/gray chip study is finally back on track, after prolonged delays due to various problems that will not be detailed here

Isn't this the same "movement" that rambles on about transparency?

[WilliamSeger]

Originally Posted by Oystein

No word on what has been done. No word on when they will send samples. No word on if they have selected any specimens. No word on if they have selected any lab. No word on if and how the testing protocol has been changed from the original proposal (cue Rick, blabbing about this - I paraphrase - 'new (invented in the 1940s) Raman spectroscopy that Mark is looking into')

In other words: "Nothing has been done in one year. Sorry for procrastinating. The money looked real pretty in our bank account, thanks for throwing it at us!"

In other words, Basile's donors still don't even have an excuse. Ziggi says that "encountering some 'friction' was not unexpected" by most of them, but I should think that all of them expected some progress by now on a completely straight-forward process, but they don't even get an excuse why there's been none? What kind of "friction" prevents sending the stuff to a lab and asking them to identify it, Ziggi?

[DGM]

Originally Posted by Oystein

Mark Basile will (in addition to his own testing) delegate work to an independent lab (or several labs) sometime this fall, in order to confirm his own results - as promised in our fundraising campaign.

In other words: "Nothing has been done in one year. Sorry for procrastinating. The money looked real pretty in our bank account, thanks for throwing it at us!"

I'm a bit confused. What is he testing? According to the original study he was only going to select chips and send them out to be identified, emphasis on independent verification of the material. Basiles' job was only to make sure they had the right chips. If he needs to do lots of testing to make sure they get the right chips, that's an admission that the original papers selection criterion is woefully lacking.

Naturally "truthers" wouldn't notice but, this "update" makes no sense. Sorry Ziggy, try again........

[WilliamSeger]

Originally Posted by Oystein

[ETA]
Quite revealing of the truther mindset is this sentence: "Mark Basile will ... delegate work to an independent lab ... in order to confirm his own results".
The objective therefore is not analyze the red material and establish once and for all what it really is, and all its constituents (the identity of the organic binder, the identity of all the pigments, the exact composition of the gray oxidize structural steel layer) - no, the objective os to confirm their silly prejudice. They still don't grasp that among Mark's results was that he determined that the Al- and Fe- content is so extremely low (under 2 and 3%, respectively), compared to the organic content (>70%), that the observed exotherm reaction (the energy yield) must have been fulled to >99% by organic combustion on air - not a thermite reaction
[/ETA]

Perhaps Ziggi, when he reads this, can elaborate a bit on all the great things Mark hasn't done!

When this project was first proposed, it sounded like Basile intended to just repeat the Harrit experiments, which would have been a waste of time since that paper failed to prove anything; their conclusions didn't follow from their data. Then, later it sounded like Basile understood that to support those conclusions, the independent labs needed to do probative tests that Harrit didn't do, such as: do the chips contain elemental aluminum; do they ignite in an inert atmosphere; is aluminum oxide produced? Now, Ziggi says Basile intends for the labs to "confirm his own results?" WTF? I guess we have to wait until October to find out what that means, but I'll be waiting with greatly lowered expectations that it was worth waiting for.

[Sunstealer]

The whole thing is a nonsensical joke. Basile could get results inside 2 weeks if he wanted to. It really is the simplest thing in the world to get done.

What does "encountering some friction" mean? Why would there be any friction in the first place because all you are asking the lab(s) to do is provide quotes for the cost of doing the work to identify the material. Most would probably say they need to look at the sample in the SEM before deciding on further work, but that's not an issue.

SEM plus FTIR will do the job thoroughly. It's not even a days work.

Why have there been prolonged delays? It's laughable. I suspect they came up against the hard wall of reality when the labs they approached took one look at photographs of the chips and suggested procedures that would readily identify the material as red paint because that's exactly what the labs know the material is.

The fact that Ziggi has said they intend to delegate to the labs to confirm Basile's own results shows that they are probably dictating to the labs which tests and procedures they want done rather than tests that will positively identify the material.

Remember that they last thing these dishonest people want is the truth to be presented by a lab for all to see. They've invested too much to be shown up for the fools they are, so expect a massive fudge and a new round of fund raising.

[chrismohr]

For what it's worth, I approached some two dozen labs before finding Jim Millette. Some refused to deal with me at all because it was connected to 9/11. Some refused because they feared that if there WERE thermite, it would damage their equipment. Some just suggested they do the tests with whatever equipment their lab happened to have. I found it to be very challenging. Sunstealer you might have been able to easily find a competent tester but it was not so easy for me. I too experienced "friction" along the way.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by beachnut

Mark took a remedial physics class and figured out his claims on 911 were idiotic BS based on ... idiotic BS, a recursive kind of ignorance. So he dropped the study, and drank the money...

That would be the smartest move that any truther has done since the disappearance of the Buffet Slayer.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by chrismohr

For what it's worth, I approached some two dozen labs before finding Jim Millette. Some refused to deal with me at all because it was connected to 9/11. Some refused because they feared that if there WERE thermite, it would damage their equipment. Some just suggested they do the tests with whatever equipment their lab happened to have. I found it to be very challenging. Sunstealer you might have been able to easily find a competent tester but it was not so easy for me. I too experienced "friction" along the way.

Mark is a chemical engineer and works at (or perhaps used to work at) Waters, company that offers products and solutions for chemical analysis. Within his work environment, Mark has (or had) personal access to some of the analytical machinery we are talking about here. No doubt, Waters, and quite probably Mark himself, already have frequent contact to other professional analytical labs, so it should be relatively easy for Mark to find a suitable lab.

Perhaps some of the labs he contacted did a quick google seacht and determined that they have been contacted by a nutjob representing a weird fringe of irrational people, aiming to abuse their reputation for a wild goose chase with a foregone conclusion.

[DGM]

Originally Posted by chrismohr

For what it's worth, I approached some two dozen labs before finding Jim Millette. Some refused to deal with me at all because it was connected to 9/11. Some refused because they feared that if there WERE thermite, it would damage their equipment. Some just suggested they do the tests with whatever equipment their lab happened to have. I found it to be very challenging. Sunstealer you might have been able to easily find a competent tester but it was not so easy for me. I too experienced "friction" along the way.

For context, how did you approach the labs? Was it "can you test this for thermite?" or "I have these chips and I need to know what they are?" . The later in my opinion would be the way to go.

[jaydeehess]

Originally Posted by DGM

For context, how did you approach the labs? Was it "can you test this for thermite?" or "I have these chips and I need to know what they are?" . The later in my opinion would be the way to go.

Possibly, but they might want background. If it were possible there was thermite, as mentioned above, there is the possibility of damaging equipment.

[DGM]

Originally Posted by jaydeehess

Possibly, but they might want background. If it were possible there was thermite, as mentioned above, there is the possibility of damaging equipment.

Thermite is not an unstable compound. Basic testing will tell them if it's something they need to be concerned with. What identifying technique would they use that would damage their equipment. Only a moron would light something on fire to see what it was.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by jaydeehess

Possibly, but they might want background. If it were possible there was thermite, as mentioned above, there is the possibility of damaging equipment.

That's nonsense, IMO. The specimens are so tiny, the Al-content so low, the expected maximum energy yield from a hypothetical thermite reaction therefor so miniscule, that it would at most scratch a sample holder - not explode the chamber and machine. Don't know what such mounts cost, but can't be the world. Just bill it to the customer if they need to exchange such a spare part.

[DGM]

The only "friction" I can see is the lab not wanting to get into a patent fight. It would be like bringing a caramel colored liquid in and saying "What are the ingredients?".

You brought them a paint chip and you want the formula, It's that simple.

[chrismohr]

I did ask them to test for thermite rather than ask, what is this? And Oystein, at least two labs said they won't touch anything that might be thermite because of the damage it could cause.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by chrismohr

I did ask them to test for thermite rather than ask, what is this? And Oystein, at least two labs said they won't touch anything that might be thermite because of the damage it could cause.

I know, and it's nonsense. Perhaps you didn't tell them, or they didn't understand, how tiny the specimens would be, and that they were already known to contain only a small proportion of Al.

[chrismohr]

It was nonsense, I agree, but for me it was definitely "friction" as well!

[WilliamSeger]

Originally Posted by DGM

Naturally "truthers" wouldn't notice but, this "update" makes no sense. Sorry Ziggy, try again........

Request denied, apparently...

[BasqueArch]

Originally Posted by chrismohr

It was nonsense, I agree, but for me it was definitely "friction" as well!

It's obvious Basile's real problem is "fiction" not "friction."

[Redwood]

It seems that Basile's website is "unavailable". (http://markbasile.org)

[DGM]

Originally Posted by Redwood

It seems that Basile's website is "unavailable". (http://markbasile.org)

It's still there.

Not that they are actually accomplishing anything...........

[Redwood]

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwood
It seems that Basile's website is "unavailable". (http://markbasile.org)

Originally Posted by DGM

It's still there.

Not that they are actually accomplishing anything...........

My browser still says "Site not available". WAIT! Now I can get his site! What gives? Is this all part of the Vast Conspiracy?

[DGM]

Bump:

I'm surprised how long it takes to send a sample to a competent lab.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by DGM

Bump:

I'm surprised how long it takes to send a sample to a competent lab.

Perhaps Criteria, when (s)he reads this, can contact Ziggi and inquire about a new status report. After all, Ziggi blogged two months ago:

Originally Posted by Ziggi Zugam

We hope to give you another update in early October.

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by DGM

Bump:

I'm surprised how long it takes to send a sample to a competent lab.

Maybe all the competent labs are seeing how they respond to results they don't like, and thinking better of having anythng to do with them.

Dave

[Redwood]

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

Maybe all the competent labs are seeing how they respond to results they don't like, and thinking better of having anythng to do with them.

Dave

More likely, Basile & Co. got the "bad" news back from the lab[s] and have decided to suppress the results, like Harrit's FTIR and XRD results.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by Redwood

More likely, Basile & Co. got the "bad" news back from the lab[s] and have decided to suppress the results, like Harrit's FTIR and XRD results.

No, why would so twooffull people be so dishonest?

[Sunstealer]

I don't think Mark Basile's study will ever get done. They know the results from an independent lab would make them all look very silly.

[DGM]

Originally Posted by Sunstealer

I don't think Mark Basile's study will ever get done.

My prediction. As they have already changed the study to "confirming" Basiles finding instead of doing the actual work(*). They will claim the lab was wrong/ sold out and carry on as usual (until the need more money to do it again).

"Truthers" won't question this. They have never questioned the word of their leaders.

(*) a point no "truther" has dared to point out.

[DGM]

Then: What was going to be done by an independent lab.

Quote:

Proposal:
Sample Preparation:
- Red/gray chip separation using optical microscopy and magnetic attraction to assist in isolation of particles of interest.
- Optical images of collected particulates as collected at appropriate magnifications to record condition as collected.
Sample Analysis:
- SEM/EDX with elemental quantification of red/gray chips, both red and gray layers.
- FTIR analysis of organic components of red/gray chips, both red and gray layers.
- ESCA small spot technique with argon ion sputter for depth profiling to definitively establish the presence of elemental aluminum within the red layer of the red/gray chips. Scans of gray layer also to be taken to add to information base.
- DSC analysis of red/gray chips focusing on exothermic/endothermic reactions near 400 degrees C. Some chips to be scanned in inert atmosphere and some in air or oxygen containing gas stream.
- SEM/EDX with elemental quantification of residual products of DSC analysis of red/gray chips.
- Optical images of reaction products after DSC experiments.

Now:

Quote:

It has been almost a full year since we posted our last update, and some of our readers were starting to express concern about the lack of new updates.

We are happy to report that Mark Basile´s red/gray chip study is finally back on track, after prolonged delays due to various problems that will not be detailed here. I am sure, however, that most of our supporters knew and realized from the beginning that encountering some "friction" was not unexpected.

Mark Basile will (in addition to his own testing) delegate work to an independent lab (or several labs) sometime this fall, in order to confirm his own results - as promised in our fundraising campaign.

We hope to give you another update in early October.

Thank you all for your donations and patience!

Can anyone spot the shift in the study?

[WilliamSeger]

It's now officially mid-October and no progress report. You'd think Ziggi would at least post an new excuse.

[ProBonoShill]

How *********** difficult is it to get a simple study done?

[Sunstealer]

Originally Posted by ProBonoShill

How *********** difficult is it to get a simple study done?

Not difficult at all. It would take a couple of weeks at the most to arrange, agree fees, carry out and then report. Just ask a lab to find out what the material is as cheaply as possible.

A lab would do a quick visual study, then straight into the SEM to have a closer look. Then use EDX on the layers and the particles in the red layer. That would tell them the material is paint adhered to steel. Wouldn't take a day, someone getting a move on could do it in half a day for one chip. Then they'd probably contact the submitter with a brief email giving details and then ask if they wanted to fund further study (FTIR) to identify the carbon based matrix and whether they want further conformation of particle type using other methods.

I think Basile fears being found out.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by Sunstealer

Not difficult at all. It would take a couple of weeks at the most to arrange, agree fees, carry out and then report. Just ask a lab to find out what the material is as cheaply as possible.

A lab would do a quick visual study, then straight into the SEM to have a closer look. Then use EDX on the layers and the particles in the red layer. That would tell them the material is paint adhered to steel. Wouldn't take a day, someone getting a move on could do it in half a day for one chip. Then they'd probably contact the submitter with a brief email giving details and then ask if they wanted to fund further study (FTIR) to identify the carbon based matrix and whether they want further conformation of particle type using other methods.

I think Basile fears being found out.

No not Basile he is so dedicated to the truth.

[cantonear1968]

Originally Posted by DGM

Quote:

It has been almost a full year since we posted our last update, and some of our readers were starting to express concern about the lack of new updates.

We are happy to report that Mark Basile´s red/gray chip study is finally back on track, after prolonged delays due to various problems that will not be detailed here. I am sure, however, that most of our supporters knew and realized from the beginning that encountering some "friction" was not unexpected.

Mark Basile will (in addition to his own testing) delegate work to an independent lab (or several labs) sometime this fall, in order to confirm his own results - as promised in our fundraising campaign.

We hope to give you another update in early October.

Thank you all for your donations and patience!

Nice! Just ambiguous enough to give the impression they were harassed by The Powers That Be.

[alienentity]

Seriously? Nothing yet? this is embarrassing for all his supporters.

It's almost as lame as the nonexistent followup from Jones et al., which they promised waaaay back in 2009!!

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw

No not Basile he is so dedicated to the truth.

As long as the truth confirms his beliefs.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by tsig

As long as the truth confirms his beliefs.

Did you mean to say lines his pockets with cash, because that's what I heard.

[Oystein]

[long email conversation deleted]


And just as I had concluded that there would not come a response from Mark Basile, here it is, fresh in my inbox as I was writing the original version of this post:

Originally Posted by Mark Basile

Gentlemen,

I am working on this project still. Results will be made public when ready and not sooner.

If anyone thinks I am going to ruin my reputation over a sum which is close to, but never actually even reached $5000 they are wrong.

All funds are safe and untouched.

If your patience is expired then I suggest you initiate your own study.


Mark

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by Oystein

[long email conversation deleted]


And just as I had concluded that there would not come a response from Mark Basile, here it is, fresh in my inbox as I was writing the original version of this post:

Why would someone working so slow it's like watching a dead snail race, try anyone's patience?

The Basile study is over, before it began either that or they will try to sneek in some paint
Chips they modified, I know longer trust Basile too little to late and no real reason for it.

[jaydeehess]

Quote:

If anyone thinks I am going to ruin my reputation over a sum which is close to, but never actually even reached $5000 they are wrong

Not producing anything despite a long time working at it is exactly one criticism truthers level at NIST, and one reason why they have no regard for NIST's reputation.

Basile IS damaging his reputation by being so slow.