ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Economics, Business and Finance
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 21st August 2018, 07:51 PM   #1
nothanks
New Blood
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 4
Amway- Quit or work until you are dead

Hi there. Does anyone know of any Amway IBO's that have completely walked away from their businesses and retired living off of Amway residual income? I don't think they exist.
nothanks is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2018, 12:49 PM   #2
Joecool
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,229
Originally Posted by nothanks View Post
Hi there. Does anyone know of any Amway IBO's that have completely walked away from their businesses and retired living off of Amway residual income? I don't think they exist.
I have been debating on Amway related topics for more than 10 years. During that time, I have asked numerous Amway defenders to name and verify even a single person who joined Amway, built an empire, and walked away to enjoy luxuries beyond imagination for life because of residual ongoing Amway income. Not a single Amway defender could name a single one.

I was told that the diamonds and other big shots keep "working" because they enjoy it and they truly want to help the downline. I personally find it implausible that not a single person has walked away to enjoy privacy and wealth beyond imagination from an Amway business.

When you consider that Amway sales have been in a sharp decline over the last 5 years (11.8 billion in 2013, 10.5 billion in 2014, 9.5 billion in 2015, 8.8 billion in 2016, and 8.6 billion in 2017), and the fact that about half of all Amway IBOs quit within a year, and most Amway IBOs do nothing, it would be impossible to walk away from a business like this and see it thriving some years later.

I believe there is no sustainable Amway residual income for extended periods of time. The Amway business, IMO, is like a sand castle. You can walk away and it might stand for a while. But the waves and wind will wear it down to nothing pretty quickly. Amway's attrition rate is like the waves and the wind.
Joecool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 08:36 AM   #3
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,606
Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
I have been debating on Amway related topics for more than 10 years. During that time, I have asked numerous Amway defenders to name and verify even a single person who joined Amway, built an empire, and walked away to enjoy luxuries beyond imagination for life because of residual ongoing Amway income. Not a single Amway defender could name a single one.

I was told that the diamonds and other big shots keep "working" because they enjoy it and they truly want to help the downline. I personally find it implausible that not a single person has walked away to enjoy privacy and wealth beyond imagination from an Amway business.

When you consider that Amway sales have been in a sharp decline over the last 5 years (11.8 billion in 2013, 10.5 billion in 2014, 9.5 billion in 2015, 8.8 billion in 2016, and 8.6 billion in 2017), and the fact that about half of all Amway IBOs quit within a year, and most Amway IBOs do nothing, it would be impossible to walk away from a business like this and see it thriving some years later.

I believe there is no sustainable Amway residual income for extended periods of time. The Amway business, IMO, is like a sand castle. You can walk away and it might stand for a while. But the waves and wind will wear it down to nothing pretty quickly. Amway's attrition rate is like the waves and the wind.
In the late 1980s I frequently attended Amway rallies to help out a friend (bringing potential recruits to these rallies made my friend look good to his upstream). The speakers were probably diamonds or equivalent, and they had a story about how their lives are great now, with all this leisure time.

One speaker had an anecdote that he used every time, I guess assuming the crowd didn't have repeat visitors? Anyway, it was a story about how this morning on the way to the rally, he had time to just pull over and sit on the side of the road and watch an American bald eagle fly around awhile.

When my friend said he found the story inspiring, I pointed out that this guy is trying to sell five minutes of downtime between his redeye flight and rally as some sort of life of leisure. This guy seems to be treading water, he needs to be recruiting nonstop or whatever scraping by income he has will all dry up, and this dude was in his 60s. This is not a great look ahead into an Amway retirement plan.

I don't know what exactly changed my friend's mind about Amway, but I think this was a factor. The other was that the daughter of his upstream got engaged and wasn't available anymore.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2018, 02:43 PM   #4
Dread Pirate Roberts
Student
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 48
Perhaps only the ones that make all the money off the tools business, not Amway product. But they still have to make sure the system is fed with new recruits.
Dread Pirate Roberts is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 12:25 AM   #5
Joecool
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,229
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
In the late 1980s I frequently attended Amway rallies to help out a friend (bringing potential recruits to these rallies made my friend look good to his upstream). The speakers were probably diamonds or equivalent, and they had a story about how their lives are great now, with all this leisure time.

One speaker had an anecdote that he used every time, I guess assuming the crowd didn't have repeat visitors? Anyway, it was a story about how this morning on the way to the rally, he had time to just pull over and sit on the side of the road and watch an American bald eagle fly around awhile.

When my friend said he found the story inspiring, I pointed out that this guy is trying to sell five minutes of downtime between his redeye flight and rally as some sort of life of leisure. This guy seems to be treading water, he needs to be recruiting nonstop or whatever scraping by income he has will all dry up, and this dude was in his 60s. This is not a great look ahead into an Amway retirement plan.

I don't know what exactly changed my friend's mind about Amway, but I think this was a factor. The other was that the daughter of his upstream got engaged and wasn't available anymore.
One telltale sign of weakness is that the diamonds may portray a jet set lifestyle of luxury but if you could see how they live, it would probably be a middle class lifestyle with a night job instead of a 9-5.

You will see pictures of Amway paid vacations but rarely will you will a vast array of exotic and expensive vacations because (IMO) the diamonds are busy maintaining their business. Without the diamond (the Star), who will motivate the troops and even the platinums?

My former diamond claimed to be "rich", but he owned cars that were "pre owned" by his upline and I never saw any non Amway related vacation pictures. All I saw was Peter island pictures which all qualified diamonds get to attend. He owned a decent home in Hawaii and spoke of building a mansion near "Hawaii loa ridge" on Oahu but he started the project and did not appear to finish it and he ended up in Washington state in a middle class neighborhood.

Where's the uber wealth? I believe it's mostly a charade. Some diamonds probably are wealthy but it's through a scam of selling tools and functions and lesser diamonds are scraping to make enough to "appear" wealthy.
Joecool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2018, 08:25 PM   #6
NewtonTrino
Illuminator
 
NewtonTrino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,313
The wealth is an illusion. Those who have made fortunes in Amway are the tool merchants. Guys like Dexter who manufacturers and sells a ton of seminar recordings for outrageous prices. That family is still in the same business selling "tools" to people and making a lot of money doing it.

There may be the occasional person around who has a small residual income because they sponsored some people who are out there hustling, but it's few and far between.

In fact there are many examples of people who were bigtime pins back in the day and who no longer have a business. It's definitely not something that sustains itself without a ton of ongoing work due to people leaving.

As a fairly successful guy myself I usually laugh pretty hard when I get approached by these morons. Let me get this straight, you want me to join your pyramid scheme? Nah dawg, that's only for idiots.
NewtonTrino is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2018, 11:05 AM   #7
Joecool
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,229
Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
The wealth is an illusion. Those who have made fortunes in Amway are the tool merchants. Guys like Dexter who manufacturers and sells a ton of seminar recordings for outrageous prices. That family is still in the same business selling "tools" to people and making a lot of money doing it.

There may be the occasional person around who has a small residual income because they sponsored some people who are out there hustling, but it's few and far between.

In fact there are many examples of people who were bigtime pins back in the day and who no longer have a business. It's definitely not something that sustains itself without a ton of ongoing work due to people leaving.

As a fairly successful guy myself I usually laugh pretty hard when I get approached by these morons. Let me get this straight, you want me to join your pyramid scheme? Nah dawg, that's only for idiots.
I've challenged some pro Amway people on various forums to name even a small handful people people who built the Amway business, and walked away to enjoy residual income for life. Not a single one of them could name even one person (that's verifiable) who did this.

Conversely, there are a bunch of diamonds who have quit or resigned from Amway. Who in the world would quit or resign if lifelong residual income were a reality? Instead we see mega diamond crown ambassador types on the job until they pass away.

If there really was a realistic chance to earn that lifelong residual income from Amway, there would be no need to lie and trick people into seeing the business plan. People would be drawn to it.
Joecool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2018, 11:17 AM   #8
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 73,461
MLMs are scams, full stop. They're just narowly avoiding the pyramid scheme label, and quite honestly I don't see a real difference.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2018, 12:43 PM   #9
dudalb
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,025
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
MLMs are scams, full stop. They're just narowly avoiding the pyramid scheme label, and quite honestly I don't see a real difference.
I think the difference is you are buying a product to sell, not just giving the money to the person above you in the pyramid. I think that's the difference that allows the MLM schemes to operate.
But I would not touch an MLM with a ten foot pole. There is a reason why really good salespeople won't go near a MLM.
dudalb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th September 2018, 01:34 PM   #10
crescent
Master Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,538
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
MLMs are scams, full stop. They're just narowly avoiding the pyramid scheme label, and quite honestly I don't see a real difference.
An old high school acquaintance of mine seems to have recently gotten in to some sort of Cosmetics related MLM. She's pushing out all sort of videos on social media pushing the products, showing how good they make her look (she's pretty, that helps), and so on. She really goes on about how motivating and inspirational this all is.

I don't expect it to last.
crescent is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2018, 11:31 AM   #11
Joecool
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,229
The people who promote Amway and MLM always seem to talk about this "residual income" that keeps rolling in even if you leave the business, or how you can will this income to future generations as if the money will keep flowing once you establish this seemingly high level (typically the "diamond" level).

But what's unseen to most is that in order to earn money in Amway, there are monthly qualification parameters (volume) that must be met in order to be paid at certain levels.

When you factor in that most people do little or nothing, and the fact that about half of all Amway IBOs quit each year, and that about 95% of all IBOs quit in about 5 years, how can anyone build an empire that will continue to generate bonuses for long without constant maintenance and cheer leading from what is usually a charismatic leader?
Joecool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2018, 11:51 AM   #12
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,176
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
MLMs are scams, full stop. They're just narowly avoiding the pyramid scheme label, and quite honestly I don't see a real difference.
The difference is this:

In a pyramid scheme the people at the bottom give money to the people at the top. Sometimes this is a direct payment, sometimes it's hidden.

In a Multi-level-marketing scheme, the new recruits are told they are to be a sales force to sell product, but really they're recruited to be the market for inspirational/motivational materials, which are produced by their up-line who pockets the profit from the manufacture and sale of those materials. The products they sell are almost immaterial.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2018, 11:55 AM   #13
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 73,461
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think the difference is you are buying a product to sell, not just giving the money to the person above you in the pyramid. I think that's the difference that allows the MLM schemes to operate.
Yes, that's how I understand it as well, but it's not much of a distinction. It's still a scam, just one that's better hidden, like creationism masquerading under the name of 'intelligent design'.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2018, 04:06 PM   #14
dudalb
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,025
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The difference is this:

In a pyramid scheme the people at the bottom give money to the people at the top. Sometimes this is a direct payment, sometimes it's hidden.

In a Multi-level-marketing scheme, the new recruits are told they are to be a sales force to sell product, but really they're recruited to be the market for inspirational/motivational materials, which are produced by their up-line who pockets the profit from the manufacture and sale of those materials. The products they sell are almost immaterial.
Which is why professional salespeople who are good at their job have total contempt for MLMs. For a real salesmen, it's all about being an expert on the product you are selling.
dudalb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Economics, Business and Finance

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:27 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.