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Old 11th September 2018, 10:28 AM   #81
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
China isn't Communist.
It is a Technocratic Market Economy.
The communist party wields total control of the country. I'm quite comfortable with calling that communist. I don't really care if you prefer some other label, go ahead, but it sure as hell isn't capitalist, and its failings do not reflect on capitalism.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:38 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The communist party wields total control of the country. I'm quite comfortable with calling that communist. I don't really care if you prefer some other label, go ahead, but it sure as hell isn't capitalist, and its failings do not reflect on capitalism.
They're not communist at all. I don't say that as someone with an ideal version of communism in mind. I'm just noting that they don't meet the definition of communist by any definition.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:46 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The communist party wields total control of the country.
Sorry for the double post, but whose definition of "communist" is "wields total control"? That's a total rightwing boogeyman definition of socialism.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:53 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Sorry for the double post, but whose definition of "communist" is "wields total control"? That's a total rightwing boogeyman definition of socialism.
That's... not what Ziggurat meant.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:06 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
They're not communist at all. I don't say that as someone with an ideal version of communism in mind. I'm just noting that they don't meet the definition of communist by any definition.
I'm not going to bother arguing that point, because the far more important part of my previous post was the last sentence. If you agree with that part, that's enough for me, and if you disagree with that, then that's the part you should be addressing.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:11 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which would mean it would be declining for 100% of the bottom 40%. But it isn't. It's only declining for half of the bottom 40%. It's not declining for the other half of the bottom 40%.

You're bad at math.

I'm not particularly good in math, but even though I misunderstood what you were getting on about, you still make the assumption that if it's not declining, it must be increasing. Not true.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:13 AM   #87
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China is obviously a capitalist country.

Quote:
China has gone from being a country that opposed capitalism to one that embraces property rights, profits and free market competition.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 11th September 2018, 11:13 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I'm not particularly good in math, but even though I misunderstood what you were getting on about, you still make the assumption that if it's not declining, it must be increasing. Not true.
I think Zig's point is that things are rarely exactly level, so if it's not declining it must pretty much be increasing. I'm not sure I agree, as very slight increases or decreases may be considered "stable" for all practical purposes.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:19 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think Zig's point is that things are rarely exactly level, so if it's not declining it must pretty much be increasing. I'm not sure I agree, as very slight increases or decreases may be considered "stable" for all practical purposes.
Sure, if it's within some small range of zero it makes sense to call that stable.

But given what I see as the propagandistic nature of the source, I think they're calling anything less than zero to be a decline, even if it's close to zero. It would positively shock me if they were categorizing things such that there was a significant group close to zero, both positive and negative, that would qualify as "stable" instead of increasing or decreasing.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:41 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The communist party wields total control of the country. I'm quite comfortable with calling that communist. I don't really care if you prefer some other label, go ahead, but it sure as hell isn't capitalist, and its failings do not reflect on capitalism.
You're going to describe a country of a billion+ people with a single word? The fact is that the Communist Party controls the government in China. You screw with the government, they screw with you. But there is no doubt that private business has been encouraged to grow and expand, and there is a bigger middle class and more private wealth in China than ever before.

The richest guy in China is worth $40 billion. He just retired to do good works. China has over 100 billionaires and countless millionaires. In a Communist society, as under Mao or Castro, the number of billionaires would be zero.
https://www.businessinsider.com/bill...quality-2018-3
https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/09/tec...aba/index.html
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Old 11th September 2018, 12:35 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You're going to describe a country of a billion+ people with a single word?
God forbid someone call it "China".

More seriously, though, see my above reply to kellyb.
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Old 11th September 2018, 12:41 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's... not what Ziggurat meant.
Yes, it is. He said:

Quote:
The communist party wields total control of the country. I'm quite comfortable with calling that communist.
That's exactly what he said and meant.
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Old 11th September 2018, 12:47 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm not going to bother arguing that point, because the far more important part of my previous post was the last sentence. If you agree with that part, that's enough for me, and if you disagree with that, then that's the part you should be addressing.
Are you referring to this?

Quote:
I don't really care if you prefer some other label, go ahead, but it sure as hell isn't capitalist, and its failings do not reflect on capitalism.
Is that what you want me to address?
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Old 11th September 2018, 12:49 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Is that what you want me to address?
Obviously.
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Old 11th September 2018, 12:55 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
God forbid someone call it "China".

More seriously, though, see my above reply to kellyb.
The Communist Party is the government, and the government is allowing what we call capitalism -- buying stuff, selling stuff, making money for ourselves, investing -- across a broad sector of the Chinese economy. If that's all you mean by "Communist," fine, but the government and the country just can't be compared to China under Mao, the Soviet Union, East Germany, etc., etc. The core of capitalism is private property and the rights associated with it, and China has them.
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Old 11th September 2018, 01:05 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Obviously.
It would be nice if you conceded that it's not Scandinavian-style "socialism" or NHS "communism".

It's not capitalism or communism. It's a system without a word to describe it in our common Western vocabulary. "Modern Chinese totalitarianism" is the best phrase I can come up with to describe it.

I might be biased by currently reading this, tho:

https://ia800205.us.archive.org/25/i...anism_1979.pdf

Quote:
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction (i.e., the reality of experience) and the distinction between true and false (i.e., the standards of thought) no longer exist.”
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Old 11th September 2018, 01:20 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's not capitalism or communism. It's a system without a word to describe it in our common Western vocabulary. "Modern Chinese totalitarianism" is the best phrase I can come up with to describe it.
I really don't care what you want to call it. Remember where this all came from? It came from this claim:

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
A much more dangerous notion is the idea that corporations should be free from all legal restraints in terms of pollution, labor rights, etc and so on.
I contested your assertion. You then brought up China in defense:
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Manufacturers operating out of china aren't great about pollution.
I agree that they aren't great about pollution. But China, regardless of what term you want to describe it with, simply does not believe that corporations should be free from all restraints. They believe that corporations should be subject to whatever restraints the government wants to place on them, without any limits on governmental power. It is government, not corporations, which is unrestrained. It's not that China thinks the government cannot limit pollution, the government in many cases (but not all) doesn't want to limit pollution. So the example of China does nothing to support your original claim. Quibbling about terminology won't change that.
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Old 11th September 2018, 01:35 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
....
It's not that China thinks the government cannot limit pollution, the government in many cases (but not all) doesn't want to limit pollution. ....

Not much different from the U.S.
Quote:
For two years in a row, the Trump administration proposed deep cuts to EPA. These reductions would allow more lead, toxic chemicals, and contaminated water -- jeopardizing the health and safety of all Americans.
https://www.edf.org/deep-epa-cuts-pu...ic-health-risk
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Old 11th September 2018, 02:11 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Not much different from the U.S.
You aren't being serious. There are massive differences between the US and China on the environment, and that gap isn't about to close even with Trump's EPA cuts.
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Old 11th September 2018, 02:40 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You aren't being serious. There are massive differences between the US and China on the environment, and that gap isn't about to close even with Trump's EPA cuts.
Of course there's a huge gap, going back to when that radical extremist Richard Nixon created the EPA. But China is heading toward more environmental protection, and our Repub government is pushing for less. Trump's cuts are the biggest he thinks he can get away with right now; they're not the end of the plan.
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Old 11th September 2018, 02:54 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Of course there's a huge gap, going back to when that radical extremist Richard Nixon created the EPA. But China is heading toward more environmental protection, and our Repub government is pushing for less. Trump's cuts are the biggest he thinks he can get away with right now; they're not the end of the plan.
What’s the relationship between the number of inspectors and pollution levels? Do you actually know, or are you just guessing? Do you think it is possible to have too many inspectors?
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Old 11th September 2018, 04:25 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are massive differences between the US and China on the environment, ...
Correct for once.

USA has released far more carbon into the atmosphere than China, by a very wide margin.
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Old 11th September 2018, 05:28 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Correct for once.

USA has released far more carbon into the atmosphere than China, by a very wide margin.
How could it be otherwise, since we're the largest economy in the world? Or are you suggesting we should have lived in squalor like the Chinese peasantry of the 1950's in order to assuage your environmental guilt? Maybe we could have had a cultural revolution too!

As of now, though, China is emitting more than us. Which is of course why your source uses past emissions rather than current emissions. And we have made more progress in reducing emissions than many of the signatories of the Paris climate deal too.
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Old 11th September 2018, 05:44 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yes, it is. He said:

That's exactly what he said and meant.
I know what he said. I said it's not what he meant.
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Old 11th September 2018, 09:42 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What’s the relationship between the number of inspectors and pollution levels? Do you actually know, or are you just guessing? Do you think it is possible to have too many inspectors?

Sure. That would mean inspectors weren't finding any violations. No danger of that any time soon.

ETA: From the original link:

Quote:
EPA has been making our country cleaner for decades but there is more work to do:

Up to ten million homes across America still get their drinking water through lead pipes – in Flint, Michigan and across the nation.

According to the American Lung Association, 125 million Americans live in counties with unhealthy air quality.

Here's another perspective:
Quote:
Sainz, the Arizona field consultant for Moms Clean Air Force, a national nonprofit that works to fight air pollution, spoke to Phoenix New Times after speaking at a press conference Wednesday hosted by the climate advocacy group Defend Our Future. At the briefing, a collection of environmental and public health advocates warned of the potential health effects of reduced fuel-emissions standards, which were proposed in early August by the Trump administration. These new, lower standards would cut into efforts to reduce air pollution in the Phoenix area, hitting children, people with chronic respiratory problems, and communities of color particularly hard, they said.

Last edited by Bob001; 11th September 2018 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:25 AM   #106
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Mmmmm...class warfare
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:41 AM   #107
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Mmmmm....hyperbole
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Old 12th September 2018, 04:44 AM   #108
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"warfare" presumes that there are no democratic solutions to the issue,
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Old 12th September 2018, 06:59 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How could it be otherwise, since we're the largest economy in the world? Or are you suggesting we should have lived in squalor like the Chinese peasantry of the 1950's in order to assuage your environmental guilt?
I don't have any environmental guilt, but congrats on the fastest shift of the goalposts combined with strawman production in history.

The fact that USA is responsible for an enormous amount of emissions during the 20th century means they should be the most responsible for cleaning it up.

Not to mention that your pal Trump's EPA has just changed the rules in favour of more emissions, so I wouldn't get too comfortable about not being #1 right now.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Maybe we could have had a cultural revolution too!
You just did. It's orange and specialises in grabbing women by the pussy.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
As of now, though, China is emitting more than us. Which is of course why your source uses past emissions rather than current emissions. And we have made more progress in reducing emissions than many of the signatories of the Paris climate deal too.
Really? How many other countries have removed methane protections?

That "we" you so proudly mention is actually made up of commercial reality rather than any actual effort by USA and is mostly due to reduction in the cost of alternative energy components made by....

China!
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Old 14th September 2018, 03:09 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The communist party wields total control of the country. I'm quite comfortable with calling that communist. I don't really care if you prefer some other label, go ahead, but it sure as hell isn't capitalist, and its failings do not reflect on capitalism.
As a small business owner in China it sure seems like capitalism to me.
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Old 14th September 2018, 03:13 AM   #111
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I do agree with this, however:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I agree that they aren't great about pollution. But China, regardless of what term you want to describe it with, simply does not believe that corporations should be free from all restraints. They believe that corporations should be subject to whatever restraints the government wants to place on them, without any limits on governmental power. It is government, not corporations, which is unrestrained. It's not that China thinks the government cannot limit pollution, the government in many cases (but not all) doesn't want to limit pollution. So the example of China does nothing to support your original claim. Quibbling about terminology won't change that.
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
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Old 14th September 2018, 03:13 AM   #112
The Great Zaganza
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"No true Capitalist Scotsman".
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Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.
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